Steph Curry is not a top 10 player of all time. [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

07-27-2024, 12:51 PM

Guy has 2 MVPs, 1 FMVPs, and 4 1st team all-nba selections. Not a good defender either. This is NOT enough to make top 10 all time if we include guys who played before the 3-point line.

See the problem with your analysis is that it's based primarily on the opinion of a few dozen guys with journalism degrees and group think... Media accolade is a weak argument.

Instead of media accolade (a few dozen media members), we can look at Curry's actual basketball caliber and performance.. And it's clear that he introduced a new, superior way of playing the game - he was literally playing the game better than everyone else so that everyone had to copy.

Furthermore, his title with secondary producer like Klay at sidekick, or perennial loser like Wiggins is better than any title that Lebron ever had - Curry's ring quality is 2015 and 2022 is among the best ever, while his skillset clearly allows highest team peaks and dynasty caliber.

Just because he is a fan favorite doesn't automatically make him top 10 all time.

Curry, Kobe and Lebron all had many bad losses with good rosters and all-star help, but Curry/Kobe are better than Lebron because they produce higher team peaks, chemistry and "unbeatable" teams that mostly win for stretches, which yields higher long-run title equity than "bron-ball" mostly losing regardless of cast and unable to compete on the championship level (lottery record in Finals)..

And of course MJ is better than everyone because he basically didn't lose with good rosters and had the highest peaks from a team or individual standpoint of the modern era, while being undefeated on the championship level.

gengiskhan

07-27-2024, 12:52 PM

this kid is retarded :oldlol:

now I remember why I dont waste a lot of time here anymore

Kid

Top 9 GOATs are too top heavy and over crowded and overloaded.

Just missing ROTY honors can knock you out of Top 9.

as much as these straight-outta-high school to PRO bench warming for 1st 2 years instead of proving yourself at NCAA level has a cost.

Grow up and learn some real NBA history and overall Basketball history.

NCAA legacy can never ever thrown in garbage to please today's kids.

tpols

07-27-2024, 12:52 PM

OP is correct for once.

Curry isnt just top 10, he has a case for top 5 GOAT.

4 rings with superstar production, the only UMVP in league history, leader of the team with the most wins of all time, catalyst of one of the greatest dynasties of all time... the list goes on and on.

It's time he has gotten his due.

WhiteKyrie

07-27-2024, 12:53 PM

Well, team USA doesn’t even even have Kevin Durant right now, and he’s the fifth best player so far

1) Bron
2) AD
3) Antman
4) Holiday
5) Curry

StrongLurk

07-28-2024, 12:57 PM

90sgoat

07-28-2024, 01:22 PM

No one said he is top 10, but he is a legend and an era defining player. He has just as much a case for top 10-ish as many others.

StrongLurk

07-28-2024, 06:12 PM

No one said he is top 10, but he is a legend and an era defining player. He has just as much a case for top 10-ish as many others.

He is solidly in the top 15. Clearly not in top 10.

warriorfan

07-28-2024, 06:32 PM

Well, team USA doesn’t even even have Kevin Durant right now, and he’s the fifth best player so far

1) Bron
2) AD
3) Antman
4) Holiday
5) Curry

no one gives a **** about the olympics dog

j3lademaster

07-28-2024, 06:38 PM

StrongLurk

07-28-2024, 07:07 PM

Curry has a case, as does Malone, O, and Logo. In terms of pure offensive impact, he has a case for goat.

I hear a lot of criticism for Curry for ‘only’ having 1 fmvp, but he was robbed in 2015 and the 2 rings with KD could have gone either way, and if he wanted to be a little more selfish and pad his stats he could have won those. Kobe gets credit for 5 rings when he won his first averaging 15 on 38% in the finals.

The 2015 logic is cancelled out by Kyrie and Love not playing the finals (well Kyrie got 4 quarters in). Curry's performance was so middling even without Kyrie and Love. Lebron greatly outperformed him, everyone saw it. Also I do not give Kobe "top 10 worthy" credit for his 2000 ring. I've made multiple threads about it.

So your post doesn't help Curry's ranking. Kobe is barely top 10 all time and he has 11 first team all-nba's (Curry has 4) and Kobe did have at least 5-6 years of being a legit elite defender (Curry has none).

dankok8

07-28-2024, 08:15 PM

The 2015 logic is cancelled out by Kyrie and Love not playing the finals (well Kyrie got 4 quarters in). Curry's performance was so middling even without Kyrie and Love. Lebron greatly outperformed him, everyone saw it. Also I do not give Kobe "top 10 worthy" credit for his 2000 ring. I've made multiple threads about it.

So your post doesn't help Curry's ranking. Kobe is barely top 10 all time and he has 11 first team all-nba's (Curry has 4) and Kobe did have at least 5-6 years of being a legit elite defender (Curry has none).

Sure. If you don't care about scoring efficiency...

Regardless, Curry was easily the best player on the winning team. He should have won Finals MVP in 2015. And he could have easily been in 2018 as well. IIRC he was better than KD in 3/4 games and just had that one bad stinker.

StrongLurk

07-28-2024, 08:27 PM

Sure. If you don't care about scoring efficiency...

Regardless, Curry was easily the best player on the winning team. He should have won Finals MVP in 2015. And he could have easily been in 2018 as well. IIRC he was better than KD in 3/4 games and just had that one bad stinker.

I already explained how the Curry deserved 2015 FMVP logic doesn't work since the Warriors only won because of no Kyrie/Love. He was going to lose that series against a Cavs team WITHOUT Kyrie/Love if not for Andre Iguodola completely changing everything halfway through the series by continuing to challenge Lebron on defense while unlocking the Warriors offense in games 4-6.

And don't even get started on 2018 finals. You are not recalling correctly. That one "stinker" counts when KD himself put up 29/11/8 with 3.1 stks, only 2.3 turnovers on 65.4 TS%, AND was the only guy on the Warriors who could equalize Lebron.

I obviously think Curry is an incredible player by saying he is firmly in the top 15. But he is not a "GOAT" player (i.e. top 10 all-time). He is still playing however, and could potentially make the top 10 all time.

StrongLurk

07-28-2024, 08:40 PM

For anyone who disagrees with me, feel free to list the player or players that Curry bumps out of the top ten.

warriorfan

07-28-2024, 08:55 PM

For anyone who disagrees with me, feel free to list the player or players that Curry bumps out of the top ten.

You are a f.aggot and don’t know shit about basketball

tpols

07-28-2024, 09:04 PM

You are a f.aggot and don’t know shit about basketball

:roll:

The guy is such a drama queen. Top 15 is just a great player but top 10 is true "GOAT". Literally splitting hairs just to argue. Even from a haters perspective being in the 99.99% tile is sooo much worse than being in the 99.999%.

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 07:48 AM

For anyone who disagrees with me, feel free to list the player or players that Curry bumps out of the top ten.

Phoenix

07-29-2024, 08:09 AM

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 08:13 AM

Top 10...top 15....we act like there's some huge disparity between the 9th ranked player and the 13th. At this level the differences are often circumstantial and intangible. If Steph isn't top 10, then he's certainly done enough to bump past legacy players like Jerry West and Oscar that always seemed to be just outside the top 10 over the last 20 years.

There are 28 players with more first team all-nba awards than Curry, and 13 other players with the same amount as Curry (4).

Curry also has 1 FMVP and is a below average defender. Yes, he is supernova on offense.

I'm just saying he is clearly not top 10 all time, yet a lot of the young NBA fans and even media recently is trying to force him into the top 10. I have him in the top 15, but if we want to measure "greatness/GOATNESS" of pre-3 point line players too, then I could see someone having Curry in the 15-20 range.

Again, who is Curry bumping out of these guys -> MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bill, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Kobe, Bird? Nobody.

Then we have guys like Hakeem, Oscar, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Jokic...Just forcing Curry into the top 10 or even top 5 like his stans do is wild to me.

Phoenix

07-29-2024, 09:40 AM

There are 28 players with more first team all-nba awards than Curry, and 13 other players with the same amount as Curry (4).

Curry also has 1 FMVP and is a below average defender. Yes, he is supernova on offense.

I'm just saying he is clearly not top 10 all time, yet a lot of the young NBA fans and even media recently is trying to force him into the top 10. I have him in the top 15, but if we want to measure "greatness/GOATNESS" of pre-3 point line players too, then I could see someone having Curry in the 15-20 range.

Again, who is Curry bumping out of these guys -> MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Bill, Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Magic, Kobe, Bird? Nobody.

Then we have guys like Hakeem, Oscar, Jerry West, Moses Malone, Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Jokic...Just forcing Curry into the top 10 or even top 5 like his stans do is wild to me.

How many have more MVPs? Unanimous MVPS? There's all kinds of metrics one can apply. The fact that his style pioneered an entire era is an intangible. Whether he's 10th or 15th...there's not much seperation in these rankings. I do tiers, and I have him in tier 3.

John8204

07-29-2024, 09:45 AM

When I do my rankings I go generation and position so for Curry to be in the top ten he's got to be at the very least the second best point guard or shooting guard of all-time. And I'm sorry but he's not moving past Jordan, Oscar, Magic, West and Kobe.

The man has 4 rings, 2 MVP's and a legacy of the greatest shooter of all-time. Let that be enough.

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 10:27 AM

How many have more MVPs? Unanimous MVPS? There's all kinds of metrics one can apply. The fact that his style pioneered an entire era is an intangible. Whether he's 10th or 15th...there's not much seperation in these rankings. I do tiers, and I have him in tier 3.

The unanimous MVP thing is a little overrated. A few players clearly should have got it but literally 1 single voter would throw it off on purpose.

9 players have more MVPs and 5 players have the same amount of MVPs.

Ive yet to see anyone actually name the players that are kicked out of the top 10 for Curry lol. Surprised some people didn't try to slyly mention Wilt/Bill Russell because they played so long ago in a very different NBA.

Hey Yo

07-29-2024, 10:44 AM

Manny98

07-29-2024, 10:48 AM

For anyone who disagrees with me, feel free to list the player or players that Curry bumps out of the top ten.
1. LeBron
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Curry
10. Hakeem

Not including players from the 60s too far back and the game was way too different to compare

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 11:12 AM

1. LeBron
2. MJ
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Kobe
6. Duncan
7. Shaq
8. Bird
9. Curry
10. Hakeem

Not including players from the 60s too far back and the game was way too different to compare

You must have read my post. Either way, everyone includes Bill and Wilt still. But let's throw them out, and also remove Oscar, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor (so 5 players total). Hakeem is definitely ahead of Curry all time. Curry is also competing with the below players. So yeah, you'd have to remove 2 top ten players (Bill/Wilt), and 3 other top 20 players from the 60's, PLUS the below listed players. Curry is not clearly ahead of Moses Malone, or his contemporaries (KD, Giannis, Jokic).

Hakeem: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams - also one of the best defenders of all time and has 2 DPOY

Moses Malone: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams - 2x all-nba defense awards

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams

Giannis: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPs) - 6 all-nba first teams - Multiple defensive all-nba teams and DPOY

Jokic: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams (and counting).

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams

Hey Yo

07-29-2024, 11:34 AM

LeBron's 4 fmvp votes in 2015 was the same amount as Curry's first 5 Finals combined.

Another thing against Curry is that he’s responsible for getting Delly paid after the 2015 finals.... 4yrs 38mil.

gengiskhan

07-29-2024, 03:19 PM

1. MJ
2. Wilt
3. Kareem
4. Magic
5. Bird
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. Russell
9. Oscar
10. Lebron

Not including players from the 60s too far back and the game was way too different to compare

Had to make little corrections.

Now it is accurate!.

hold this L

07-29-2024, 07:32 PM

I already explained how the Curry deserved 2015 FMVP logic doesn't work since the Warriors only won because of no Kyrie/Love. He was going to lose that series against a Cavs team WITHOUT Kyrie/Love if not for Andre Iguodola completely changing everything halfway through the series by continuing to challenge Lebron on defense while unlocking the Warriors offense in games 4-6.

And don't even get started on 2018 finals. You are not recalling correctly. That one "stinker" counts when KD himself put up 29/11/8 with 3.1 stks, only 2.3 turnovers on 65.4 TS%, AND was the only guy on the Warriors who could equalize Lebron.

I obviously think Curry is an incredible player by saying he is firmly in the top 15. But he is not a "GOAT" player (i.e. top 10 all-time). He is still playing however, and could potentially make the top 10 all time.

You continue to be one of the biggest retards on the site for years now, your consistency is impressive. :applause:

The Iggy storyline has to be one of the most braindead storylines every made up. You idiot want to know how much more mins Iggy was averaging after he became a "starter" and everything changed? 3 or 4 minutes more per game than the first 3 games when he was a bench player. 15 finals would normally be a 5 game series due to injuries, but Steph played awful in game 2 (and the guy who defended him was hospitalized after). It was a young team that made it far and needed time to get used to playing at an elite level, which is why a lot of young players fail when they make the finals the first time (Tatum/Brown, Luka this summer). Unfortunately ish would rather follow storylines from Skip instead of trying to think for themselves.

hold this L

07-29-2024, 07:42 PM

You must have read my post. Either way, everyone includes Bill and Wilt still. But let's throw them out, and also remove Oscar, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor (so 5 players total). Hakeem is definitely ahead of Curry all time. Curry is also competing with the below players. So yeah, you'd have to remove 2 top ten players (Bill/Wilt), and 3 other top 20 players from the 60's, PLUS the below listed players. Curry is not clearly ahead of Moses Malone, or his contemporaries (KD, Giannis, Jokic).

Hakeem: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams - also one of the best defenders of all time and has 2 DPOY

Moses Malone: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams - 2x all-nba defense awards

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams

Giannis: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPs) - 6 all-nba first teams - Multiple defensive all-nba teams and DPOY

Jokic: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams (and counting).

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams

FMPV and actual MVPs have value while the actual championships don't matter. Definitely one of the biggest mouth breathers on here.

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 07:50 PM

You continue to be one of the biggest retards on the site for years now, your consistency is impressive. :applause:

The Iggy storyline has to be one of the most braindead storylines every made up. You idiot want to know how much more mins Iggy was averaging after he became a "starter" and everything changed? 3 or 4 minutes more per game than the first 3 games when he was a bench player. 15 finals would normally be a 5 game series due to injuries, but Steph played awful in game 2 (and the guy who defended him was hospitalized after). It was a young team that made it far and needed time to get used to playing at an elite level, which is why a lot of young players fail when they make the finals the first time (Tatum/Brown, Luka this summer). Unfortunately ish would rather follow storylines from Skip instead of trying to think for themselves.

The vast majority of fans and the experts in the basketball field agree with my thinking, not yours.

StrongLurk

07-29-2024, 07:52 PM

FMPV and actual MVPs have value while the actual championships don't matter. Definitely one of the biggest mouth breathers on here.

When determining the best of the best, we can't just ring count. The FMVP is what matters most. Otherwise we'd have to slot Scottie Pippen potentially in the top 10 along with MJ. MVPS and first team all-nbas are important because they also show peak dominance as well against peers.

I'm not even shitting on Curry man, just looking at the facts. He is top 15, not top ten. There is a pretty noticeable gap.

Jasper

07-30-2024, 09:35 AM

Just because he is a fan favorite doesn't automatically make him top 10 all time.

Guy has 2 MVPs, 1 FMVPs, and 4 1st team all-nba selections. Not a good defender either. This is NOT enough to make top 10 all time if we include guys who played before the 3-point line.

correct top 15

Carbine

07-30-2024, 10:03 AM

He is probably the clear #2 of his era which puts him in the borderline top 10 all time.

Russell/Wilt
Kareem
Magic/Bird
MJ/Hakeem
Shaq/Duncan/Kobe
Lebron/Curry

If you have Curry 12th or 8th it doesn't matter. Being ranked behind a Hakeem isn't outlandish if you base a large portion off peak play. He was the best offensive and defensive player in the league for his two titles.

It seems like we are in the Jokic/Giannis era right now.

Thorpesaurous

07-30-2024, 01:10 PM

I have always liked this simple data set. There's only 9 guys who've won both multiple MVPs and multiple titles.

The Three Centers
Russell
Wilt
Kareem

The Three 80s/90 league makers
Magic
Larry
Michael

And the three modern guys
Duncan
Lebron
Stef

I'm not a huge finals MVP guy. It's just too small a sample size. And one can play extraordinarily well and not win it over a short series. Especially if they're a guy who can warp an entire defense. This list also causes me to argue with myself, because I saw Hakeem, and Shaq, and gun to my head, would take them over Duncan for example. It's simple, but it's kind of odd that this list is so uniquely short.

StrongLurk

07-30-2024, 03:10 PM

Thorpesaurous

07-30-2024, 03:54 PM

Not bad, you made the best argument out of anybody in this thread against me. I still don't think it's enough however. No Shaq/No Kobe is a big flaw, and even Hakeem missing is a problem.

Thanks,

I've been making this case for a while just because of how weirdly unique it is. You would think some guy with multiple MVPs just by accident, would've stumbled into this. Moses has multiple MVPs and bounced all over the league and just couldn't get that other title. I like it because I like the idea of judging guys based on what they actually accomplished more than maybes and could haves. Shaq is probably the toughest case. He and Kobe you could argue should have a second MVP each from Nash. And while I was in awe of Shaq, the fact is he just didn't show up in shape often enough to get it done. And frankly Kobe had too many years in the middle of his prime lost to pettiness.

StrongLurk

07-31-2024, 10:43 AM

Thanks,

I've been making this case for a while just because of how weirdly unique it is. You would think some guy with multiple MVPs just by accident, would've stumbled into this. Moses has multiple MVPs and bounced all over the league and just couldn't get that other title. I like it because I like the idea of judging guys based on what they actually accomplished more than maybes and could haves. Shaq is probably the toughest case. He and Kobe you could argue should have a second MVP each from Nash. And while I was in awe of Shaq, the fact is he just didn't show up in shape often enough to get it done. And frankly Kobe had too many years in the middle of his prime lost to pettiness.

Shaq and Kobe both have 1 MVP, and I actually think that is the correct amount. Kobe wasn't ever winning MVP during the Shaq-era, then Kobe's peak 05-07, he was surrounded by bad talent. The 2008 MVP is legit, but then Bron entered him prime the net year in 2009.

Shaq COULD'VE won more MVPs, but there were too many regular seasons where he missed a lot of games compared to the MVP winners. Shaq stopped himself from winning more MVPs.

The 05/06 Nash MVPs are weak, but that's because the MVP race in general was coincidentally weak those years.

1987_Lakers

07-31-2024, 10:53 AM

I think you can make a good argument for and against him being top 10.

The only thing that kinda holds him back is his defense, but Magic is considered top 10 despite his trash defense.

StrongLurk

07-31-2024, 11:06 AM

I think you can make a good argument for and against him being top 10.

The only thing that kinda holds him back is his defense, but Magic is considered top 10 despite his trash defense.

Magic - 3 MVPs, 3 FMVPs, 9 first team all-nba
Curry - 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 4 team first all-nba

StrongLurk

07-31-2024, 11:15 AM

Looks like the debate is settled and my position is correct.

Steph is not yet a top 10 player of all time and only recent/young fans and part of the media want to force him into the top 10 because of his entertaining style of play on the court.

Carbine

07-31-2024, 03:04 PM

I said it when Steph was argued as the GOAT PG of all time, his resume lags in comparison to Magic.

Magic has more of everything that's important.

StrongLurk

07-31-2024, 05:13 PM

I said it when Steph was argued as the GOAT PG of all time, his resume lags in comparison to Magic.

Magic has more of everything that's important.

To be clear, I am not necessarily saying Magic is a better, on the court, basketball player than Steph.

All time lists are ultimately based on what players accomplished in their era (with context of course).

Axe

07-31-2024, 05:15 PM

Stephen curry just went on to post this statline against south sudan earlier. :oldlol:

3 pts
1/9 fg
0/6 3pt
21 mins

WhiteKyrie

07-31-2024, 06:15 PM

Neither is Kobe Bryant!

most probably neither is LBJ or #10 at best.

most probably neither is Duncan or #10 at best.

next....
You can’t be this dumb

red1

07-31-2024, 10:46 PM

curry had prime KD and klay carrying him against weak competition for two of his rings.

he is lucky he had that epic run in 2022. because his career wasnt measuring up to the other top10 players before that.

rmt

08-01-2024, 06:05 PM

4 pages and I don't see mention (maybe I missed it) of Steph's impact on the game. For all the knocks, he has CHANGED the way the game is played.

Phoenix

08-01-2024, 07:04 PM

4 pages and I don't see mention (maybe I missed it) of Steph's impact on the game. For all the knocks, he has CHANGED the way the game is played.

True, but I wonder for how long. It was his combination of range shooting alongside Klay and then adding KD which gave the Warriors unparalleled long range firepower, and the league had to adjust but that Warriors dynasty is over. We seem to be headed more towards an era of parity so it will be interesting to see which team or individual forces teams to adapt to them as the Warriors did. I wouldn't mind a return to post play and mid-range and a bit less emphasis on the 3pointer but Pandoras box may be forever opened.

rmt

08-03-2024, 11:57 AM

True, but I wonder for how long. It was his combination of range shooting alongside Klay and then adding KD which gave the Warriors unparalleled long range firepower, and the league had to adjust but that Warriors dynasty is over. We seem to be headed more towards an era of parity so it will be interesting to see which team or individual forces teams to adapt to them as the Warriors did. I wouldn't mind a return to post play and mid-range and a bit less emphasis on the 3pointer but Pandoras box may be forever opened.

To me, it’s not just the 3 pointer. It was the freedom/imagination that Steph brought to ATTEMPT it from anywhere on the court. There were (set) 3 point specialists before him but mostly role players - Steph’s long range shooting ability, combined with ability to pass and attack the basket opened up the court like no one else.

Now, everyone (even big men) practices 3 pointers and as with anything in life - if u do anything over and over, u will get better at it. No lead (not 20 or 30 point) is safe. There’s no going back (as much as I love the traditional post/mid-range game).

LeGoat4Life

08-04-2024, 02:15 PM

this kid is retarded :oldlol:

now I remember why I dont waste a lot of time here anymore

Yo abu. Go back to work boy.

Akhenaten

08-05-2024, 08:56 PM

Greatest "3pt shooter" of all time..... big difference between the two.

Look at his career shooting splits from 3-10, 10-16 & 16-3p;
He shoots 46% at each split with over a third of his scoring coming from those distances. In the playoffs he's 45%, 48%, 46% respectively.

His accuracy from 3-23 feet rivals ANY player in NBA history.

Combine that with his proficiency from behind the line, it's not up for debate

Stephonit

08-08-2024, 07:08 AM

I said it when Steph was argued as the GOAT PG of all time, his resume lags in comparison to Magic.

Magic has more of everything that's important.

Apply context and look under the hood and it is Magic whose resume is lacking.

Magic has more rings? Magic began and ended his career on team that was advantaged throughout.
Steph built a bottom feeding team into a champion—TWICE.

Magic has more All-NBAs?
Steph beat almost double the number of players that were on the All-NBA First Team.

Magic has more MVPs? Magic's MVPs are weak and questionable.
Steph has literally the only one that was unanimous. Steph also beat almost double the number of players who finished Top 3 in the MVP race.

Best player Steph played with was KD. Steph won a title twice without KD and KD hasn't won a championship yet without Steph.
Best player Magic played with was Kareem. Magic never won an NBA championship without Kareem while Kareem won one without Magic.

Steph played in the stronger conference.
Magic played in a historically weak conference.

Magic's resume is more superficial than Steph's. Steph's career has seen him tested more rigorously.

Stephonit

08-08-2024, 07:22 AM

For anyone who disagrees with me, feel free to list the player or players that Curry bumps out of the top ten.

Take your pick: Magic, Bird, Wilt, Hakeem, Shaq, LeBron.

warriorfan

08-08-2024, 09:22 AM

Hating on Steph Curry is not a good look if you aren’t trying to look like a dipshit who knows nothing about basketball

1987_Lakers

08-08-2024, 09:43 AM

Magic has more MVPs? Magic's MVPs are weak and questionable.
Steph has literally the only one that was unanimous. Steph also beat almost double the number of players who finished Top 3 in the MVP race.

I think you could make an argument for Steph > Magic, but how the hell are Magic's MVPs weak? He won them in a league with Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone etc.

Stephonit

08-08-2024, 11:54 AM

I think you could make an argument for Steph > Magic, but how the hell are Magic's MVPs weak? He won them in a league with Bird, MJ, Hakeem, Barkley, Malone etc.

Magic did it by pummeling a weak Western Conference in 1987, being a more established name in 1989 against Jordan, and despite having less first place votes than Barkley in 1990.

How many of those guys did Magic actually beat on his way to a title when they were MVPs? Bird in 1985 (where Kareem was more impressive in their series) and then when?

StrongLurk

08-08-2024, 05:03 PM

Still haven't seen any truly convincing arguments to put Curry in the top 10 all time. It's not a knock on Curry, it's just that the top 10 is stupidly loaded.

Wardell Curry

08-08-2024, 05:04 PM

Don't think so eh? lol. He definitely is. There are only two players in league history that have forced defenses to collapse at this level. Shaq & Curry and that's it.

StrongLurk

08-08-2024, 05:06 PM

Don't think so eh? lol. He definitely is. There are only two players in league history that have forced defenses to collapse at this level. Shaq & Curry and that's it.

That's a nice statement, so I guess Shaq and Curry are the two best players of all time?

Wardell Curry

08-08-2024, 05:20 PM

That's a nice statement, so I guess Shaq and Curry are the two best players of all time?

Hmm, that's exactly what I said, right? Hmm. I wonder.

highwhey

08-08-2024, 05:23 PM

To me, it’s not just the 3 pointer. It was the freedom/imagination that Steph brought to ATTEMPT it from anywhere on the court. There were (set) 3 point specialists before him but mostly role players - Steph’s long range shooting ability, combined with ability to pass and attack the basket opened up the court like no one else.

Now, everyone (even big men) practices 3 pointers and as with anything in life - if u do anything over and over, u will get better at it. No lead (not 20 or 30 point) is safe. There’s no going back (as much as I love the traditional post/mid-range game).

you do realize this was schemed by steve kerr who stole the idea from d'antoni's suns, right? and the shoot 3s didn't grow in golden state or because of curry, it grew when basketball looked at baseball and their stats people. you have all these nba teams bringing in mathematicians that are telling everyone 3>2

StrongLurk

08-08-2024, 05:29 PM

Stephonit

08-08-2024, 06:12 PM

Any Curry stans have some real data/reasoning to put Curry in the top 10 all time? Curry isn't even clearly ahead of these guys...

Hakeem: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams - also one of the best defenders of all time and has 2 DPOY

Moses Malone: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams - 2x all-nba defense awards

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams

Giannis: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPs) - 6 all-nba first teams - Multiple defensive all-nba teams and DPOY

Jokic: 4 total MVPs (1FMVP/3MVP) - 4 all-nba first teams (and counting).

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams

Aside from FMVPs being a total joke of an award or accomplishment? It's the media's way of trying to steal credit for winning championships. What do you think is a greater indicator of the ability to win championships: an FMVP or a record of actually winning them?

Show me someone who believes FMVPs mean anything and I'll show you a lemming who will believe anything media says.

Part of what makes Stephen Curry a greater player than all of the others above is exactly because he runs counter to the expectations media creates and keeps exceeding them. The idiots keep saying he is less but he keeps proving them wrong. It is the ones who the media keep saying are great but keep showing they aren't that are less. A record of beating those favored by media is superior to being favored by media.

StrongLurk

08-08-2024, 07:47 PM

Aside from FMVPs being a total joke of an award or accomplishment? It's the media's way of trying to steal credit for winning championships. What do you think is a greater indicator of the ability to win championships: an FMVP or a record of actually winning them?

Show me someone who believes FMVPs mean anything and I'll show you a lemming who will believe anything media says.

Part of what makes Stephen Curry a greater player than all of the others above is exactly because he runs counter to the expectations media creates and keeps exceeding them. The idiots keep saying he is less but he keeps proving them wrong. It is the ones who the media keep saying are great but keep showing they aren't that are less. A record of beating those favored by media is superior to being favored by media.

Lol you aren't convincing anybody that FMVP is a joke award. It's literally the most prestigious award in the NBA alongside MVP.

Curry being top 15 all time is already an insane accomplishment. It's not a knock on him, it's a huge honor considering how underrated he was for a large part of his basketball life.

Stephonit

08-08-2024, 08:43 PM

Lol you aren't convincing anybody that FMVP is a joke award. It's literally the most prestigious award in the NBA alongside MVP.

Curry being top 15 all time is already an insane accomplishment. It's not a knock on him, it's a huge honor considering how underrated he was for a large part of his basketball life.

If you're a lemming you're a lemming.

A prestigious award is one that can be taken seriously. The FMVP is a joke. It piggybacks on the real accomplishment which is winning the ring. It is totally redundant if one can clearly distinguish who the best player on the winning team is and would have negligible marginal value for others if it could do that accurately. Instead the award has negative value because the evidence suggests it cannot even do that. One is better off counting rings and MVPs and ignoring FMVPs altogether. Better yet count rings and records.

The guy who is the engine of what is often considered greatest NBA team of all-time should be satisfied with top 15? Why not top 1? The arguments that Steph is the greatest NBA player of all-time are more natural and less awkward than the ones saying he isn't top 15.

tpols

08-08-2024, 09:28 PM

36 points on like 70% shooting today in a low scoring match to save Team USA from Bronze Medal.

By far the best player on the court in a high stakes superstar studded affair.

Top 5 GOAT.

90sgoat

08-08-2024, 09:42 PM

36 points on like 70% shooting today in a low scoring match to save Team USA from Bronze Medal.

By far the best player on the court in a high stakes superstar studded affair.

Top 5 GOAT.

:cheers:

FIBA isn't about beating up on Brazil or South Sudan it is bringing it on in a do or die game.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 08:44 AM

36 points on like 70% shooting today in a low scoring match to save Team USA from Bronze Medal.

By far the best player on the court in a high stakes superstar studded affair.

Top 5 GOAT.

He had a great game and I hope he has another one to help USA win GOLD.

With that said, that's not an argument for him being top ten all time, let alone time 5 all time.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 08:47 AM

If you're a lemming you're a lemming.

A prestigious award is one that can be taken seriously. The FMVP is a joke. It piggybacks on the real accomplishment which is winning the ring. It is totally redundant if one can clearly distinguish who the best player on the winning team is and would have negligible marginal value for others if it could do that accurately. Instead the award has negative value because the evidence suggests it cannot even do that. One is better off counting rings and MVPs and ignoring FMVPs altogether. Better yet count rings and records.

The guy who is the engine of what is often considered greatest NBA team of all-time should be satisfied with top 15? Why not top 1? The arguments that Steph is the greatest NBA player of all-time are more natural and less awkward than the ones saying he isn't top 15.

Sorry buddy, this just isn't convincing to anybody. Curry is great, but he isn't top 10 all time yet. 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 4 first team all-nba, and a below average defender who wasn't going to come close to any defensive recognitions. It's just not enough to make it into the top 10.

His career isn't over however. If he can win another ring/FMVP, then I would put him in the top 10.

There is an argument that you could already put Giannis and Joker on the same level all time as Curry. Imagine if Giannis and Jokic got to play with KD/Klay/Dray :roll: They'd win rings ever year too and would be more competitive against Durant when it comes to getting the FMVP (especially Jokic).

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:04 AM

Sorry buddy, this just isn't convincing to anybody. Curry is great, but he isn't top 10 all time yet. 2 MVPs, 1 FMVP, 4 first team all-nba, and a below average defender who wasn't going to come close to any defensive recognitions. It's just not enough to make it into the top 10.

His career isn't over however. If he can win another ring/FMVP, then I would put him in the top 10.

There is an argument that you could already put Giannis and Joker on the same level all time as Curry. Imagine if Giannis and Jokic got to play with KD/Klay/Dray :roll: They'd win rings ever year too and would be more competitive against Durant when it comes to getting the FMVP (especially Jokic).

Sure you could make the argument that Giannis and Joker are on the same level as Curry—if you want to look like an idiot. Be my guest.

We've seen all sorts of superteams in the past. Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton? Kobe, Pau, Dwight, Nash? How many championships? None. Duncan, Kawhi, Manu, Parker? LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Allen? How many championships? One each. But playing with KD, Klay, and Draymond is supposed to be surefire rings when their combined ring count without Steph is currently zero? There's only one truly exceptional independent factor that persuasively establishes the Warriors as possibly the greatest NBA team of all-time: the presence of Steph himself.

But we can look at it from the opposite direction too. Steph won a championship with Andrew Wiggins arguably being the second best player on the team. Did Giannis or Joker win with a worse second best player? Jrue Holiday just won another ring with the Celtics. Jamal Murray averaged 26 ppg in the Nuggets' 2023 championship run. For comparison even Klay has never averaged more than 21 ppg in the playoffs during a Warriors championship run. One can make the case Steph has won championships with second best players who were worse than those Giannis and Jokic won with.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:09 AM

Sure you could make the argument that Giannis and Joker are on the same level as Curry—if you want to look like an idiot. Be my guest.

We've seen all sorts of superteams in the past. Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton? Kobe, Pau, Dwight, Nash? How many championships? None. Duncan, Kawhi, Manu, Parker? LeBron, Wade, Bosh, Allen? How many championships? One each. But playing with KD, Klay, and Draymond is supposed to be surefire rings when their combined ring count without Steph is currently zero? There's only one truly exceptional independent factor that persuasively establishes the Warriors as possibly the greatest NBA team of all-time: the presence of Steph himself.

But we can look at it from the opposite direction too. Steph won a championship with Andrew Wiggins arguably being the second best player on the team. Did Giannis or Joker win with a worse second best player? Jrue Holiday just won another ring with the Celtics. Jamal Murray averaged 26 ppg in the Nuggets' 2023 championship run. For comparison even Klay has never averaged more than 21 ppg in the playoffs during a Warriors championship run. One can make the case Steph has won championships with second best players who were worse than those Giannis and Jokic won with.

Jokic in 2023 is better than what Curry did in 2022. Giannis also brings defensive versatility (albeit clearly less offensive potential despite being a dominant offensive player).

The point is everyone in the top ten is CLEARLY ahead of guys like Jokic, Giannis, Moses Malone, KD, etc. Curry is not CLEARLY ahead of them. He is basically in that group, maybe he is at the top. But to me, Hakeem is the gatekeeper of the top 10 all time (I have him 11). And I think Hakeem deserves to be ahead of Curry. Of course, era/rules, team makeup matter, and it's hard to compare Hakeem to Curry directly.

Either way, Curry is simply not in the top 10 yet.

dankok8

08-09-2024, 11:13 AM

I already explained how the Curry deserved 2015 FMVP logic doesn't work since the Warriors only won because of no Kyrie/Love. He was going to lose that series against a Cavs team WITHOUT Kyrie/Love if not for Andre Iguodola completely changing everything halfway through the series by continuing to challenge Lebron on defense while unlocking the Warriors offense in games 4-6.

And don't even get started on 2018 finals. You are not recalling correctly. That one "stinker" counts when KD himself put up 29/11/8 with 3.1 stks, only 2.3 turnovers on 65.4 TS%, AND was the only guy on the Warriors who could equalize Lebron.

I obviously think Curry is an incredible player by saying he is firmly in the top 15. But he is not a "GOAT" player (i.e. top 10 all-time). He is still playing however, and could potentially make the top 10 all time.

Your logic doesn't work.

Curry was easily the Warriors' best player in 2015 including in the Finals. Listing him with 1 FMVP implies that he was the best player on one championship team. In reality he was by far the best player on two of them (2015, 2022) and the best by a smaller margin in two more (2017, 2018). Durant was important for those teams but Curry had more impact on their results.

It's very hard to justify a list where Curry is not top 12. 4 rings as best player, 2 MVP's... there is less than 10 players who beat that resume. As for peak Curry there is room to maneuver and that's why you can put him a bit lower if you see Hakeem/Bird as better but #12 is really as low as he can go.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:17 AM

Jokic in 2023 is better than what Curry did in 2022. Giannis also brings defensive versatility (albeit clearly less offensive potential despite being a dominant offensive player).

The point is everyone in the top ten is CLEARLY ahead of guys like Jokic, Giannis, Moses Malone, KD, etc. Curry is not CLEARLY ahead of them. He is basically in that group, maybe he is at the top. But to me, Hakeem is the gatekeeper of the top 10 all time (I have him 11). And I think Hakeem deserves to be ahead of Curry. Of course, era/rules, team makeup matter, and it's hard to compare Hakeem to Curry directly.

Either way, Curry is simply not in the top 10 yet.

The Warriors went through the teams with the 2nd, 5th and 6th best records in the league on their way to a championship. The Nuggets in 2023 beat the teams with the 9th, 13th and 14th best records. That's supposed to be clearly better?

Curry is CLEARLY ahead of Jokic, Giannis, Moses, and KD.

Simple question: why does Hakeem deserve to be ahead of Curry?

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:21 AM

Your logic doesn't work.

Curry was easily the Warriors' best player in 2015 including in the Finals. Listing him with 1 FMVP implies that he was the best player on one championship team. In reality he was by far the best player on two of them (2015, 2022) and the best by a smaller margin in two more (2017, 2018). Durant was important for those teams but Curry had more impact on their results.

It's very hard to justify a list where Curry is not top 12. 4 rings as best player, 2 MVP's... there is less than 10 players who beat that resume. As for peak Curry there is room to maneuver and that's why you can put him a bit lower if you see Hakeem/Bird as better but #12 is really as low as he can go.

Except almost everything thing you said is not true. Curry wouldn't even won a ring in 2015 if Kyrie/Love were healthy. So the fact the he won "as the best player" doesn't even matter because it was against the worst finals opponent of all time due to injuries. And it still took him 6 games. And he still lost FMVP to his teammate.

And again, anyone with eyes saw Lebron/KD were on a HIGHER tier than Curry in the 2017/2018 finals. Curry COULD NOT compete directly with Lebron while Durant DID. Durant's finals performances in 2017/2018 were off the damn charts. Curry was a clear 3rd in those series.

Durant was also on his way to a THIRD FMVP in a row in 2019 and was clearly the best player come playoff time for the Warriors. Before he got hurt, Durant was putting up 35/5/5 on 66.4 TS% in the playoffs. He was playing like a damn 7 foot MJ.

Curry has literally never outplayed Lebron in a playoff series. Curry vs Durant however is a very interesting and fantastic argument. And guess what? NO ONE has Durant in the top ten.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:27 AM

Curry is CLEARLY ahead of Jokic, Giannis, Moses, and KD.

Simple question: why does Hakeem deserve to be ahead of Curry?

How is Curry clearly ahead of Durant when we saw Durant was ultimately better than Curry in the playoffs/finals when they were teammates. Durant was on his way to three FMVP's in a row before his achilles injury.

Before you get to Hakeem, you need to demonstrate how Curry is clearly ahead of Durant. I get their legacies together are complicated, but Curry couldn't handle Lebron while Durant did.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 12 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 10 all star games, 1 steals leader

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:33 AM

Except almost everything thing you said is not true. Curry wouldn't even won a ring in 2015 if Kyrie/Love were healthy. So the fact the he won "as the best player" doesn't even matter because it was against the worst finals opponent of all time due to injuries. And it still took him 6 games. And he still lost FMVP to his teammate.

And again, anyone with eyes saw Lebron/KD were on a HIGHER tier than Curry in the 2017/2018 finals. Curry COULD NOT compete directly with Lebron while Durant DID. Durant's finals performances in 2017/2018 were off the damn charts. Curry was a clear 3rd in those series.

Durant was also on his way to a THIRD FMVP in a row in 2019 and was clearly the best player come playoff time for the Warriors. Before he got hurt, Durant was putting up 35/5/5 on 66.4 TS% in the playoffs. He was playing like a damn 7 foot MJ.

Curry has literally never outplayed Lebron in a playoff series. Curry vs Durant however is a very interesting and fantastic argument. And guess what? NO ONE has Durant in the top ten.

Sorry to tell you this but Curry outplayed LeBron in 2015. Just because LeBron monopolizes the ball doesn't mean he is being a better player. Curry is a more efficient scorer and because of that he forces compromises that empower his teammates. If you cannot see that no wonder you don't understand anything about the impact Curry has.

tpols

08-09-2024, 11:38 AM

RRR3

08-09-2024, 11:42 AM

I think he's already top 10 but if he can have 2-3 more great seasons I don't see any way to reasonably keep him out even if you don't have him there now. Whether he wins or not is stupid because his roster rn isn't possible to win with.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:43 AM

Sorry to tell you this but Curry outplayed LeBron in 2015. Just because LeBron monopolizes the ball doesn't mean he is being a better player. Curry is a more efficient scorer and because of that he forces compromises that empower his teammates. If you cannot see that no wonder you don't understand anything about the impact Curry has.

I'm fully aware of Curry's impact. Curry was more efficient scoring in 2015 finals than Lebron, no doubt about that. But it was literally on 10ppg less a game which is huge volume difference. Meanwhile LeBron outrebounded Curry 13 to 5, and had a 8.8/3.5 ass/turnover performance while Curry was 6.3/4.7 ass/turnover. Also everyone with eyes saw Lebron was forced to play a certain style due to injuries to his top two teammates.

I can't imagine how badly Curry would've been smashed in that series if he didn't have Klay/Dray due to injuries. Curry vs Lebron/Kyrie/Love? LOL, it's a bloodbath.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:45 AM

Stronglurk is getting destroyed in this thread. His criteria is so retarded it's mind bottling to try and even comprehend. Amusing though.

We have to keep this going. Chefs all time great Team USA Olympic performance yesterday has him scrambling and scraping Diddy style... getting punished from behind. :lol

You've been a bad boy.

Literally no one has made compelling evidence for Curry in the top ten. One poster had a decent parameter, but it was still more limited than mine. Meanwhile the Curry stans can't even prove that Curry is clearly ahead of a few players OUTSIDE the top 10, and I am not even including the old guard players like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson :lol

I've asked which player or players Curry is REPLACING, and no can provide an argument. They just provide names and then try to discredit the most important accomplishments in the NBA like MVPs, FMVPs, all-nba first teams :lol

Did Curry accomplish more than Magic? No. More than Kobe? No. More than Bird? No. More than Shaq? No. More than Duncan? No. Come on guys...

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:46 AM

How is Curry clearly ahead of Durant when we saw Durant was ultimately better than Curry in the playoffs/finals when they were teammates. Durant was on his way to three FMVP's in a row before his achilles injury.

Before you get to Hakeem, you need to demonstrate how Curry is clearly ahead of Durant. I get their legacies together are complicated, but Curry couldn't handle Lebron while Durant did.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 12 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 10 all star games, 1 steals leader

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

Curry has won championships (plural) without KD, teams that had Wiggins and Klay respectively as arguably the second best players and which were pre-season underdogs. KD despite playing with former MVPs has not. That should give you your first significant clue.

Curry despite coming off injuries defeated a team with KD and the succeeding year's MVP. That's another clue.

Curry led multiple teams to 67-win records without KD. KD has not been on such a winning team without Curry.

Curry produced a season so awesome that he probably wrapped up a unanimous MVP a month before the end of the season. It was a season that basically changed the way the game is played. KD as great as he is hasn't come close that kind of season.

Curry defeated a team in 6 games that was purportedly one of the greatest defensive teams of the era based in part in how they swept a team that had both KD and Kyrie.

FMVPs? MVPs? All-NBAs? Those are pathetic meaningless trinkets compared to the evidence presented above.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:48 AM

Literally no one has made compelling evidence for Curry in the top ten. One poster had a decent parameter, but it was still more limited than mine. Meanwhile the Curry stans can't even prove that Curry is clearly ahead of a few players OUTSIDE the top 10, and I am not even including the old guard players like Jerry West and Oscar Robertson :lol

I've asked which player or players Curry is REPLACING, and no can provide an argument. They just provide names and then try to discredit the most important accomplishments in the NBA like MVPs, FMVPs, all-nba first teams :lol

Did Curry accomplish more than Magic? No. More than Kobe? No. More than Bird? No. More than Shaq? No. More than Duncan? No. Come on guys...

All your questions have been answered. If you choose to plug your ears and ignore what is right in front of you that's your problem.

Carbine

08-09-2024, 11:49 AM

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:51 AM

Curry has won championships (plural) without KD, teams that had Wiggins and Klay respectively as arguably the second best players and which were pre-season underdogs. KD despite playing with former MVPs has not. That should give you your first significant clue.

Curry despite coming off injuries defeated a team with KD and the succeeding year's MVP. That's another clue.

Curry led multiple teams to 67-win records without KD. KD has not been on such a winning team without Curry.

Curry produced a season so awesome that he probably wrapped up a unanimous MVP a month before the end of the season. It was a season that basically changed the way the game is played. KD as great as he is hasn't come close that kind of season.

Curry defeated a team in 6 games that was purportedly one of the greatest defensive teams of the era based in part in how they swept a team that had both KD and Kyrie.

FMVPs? MVPs? All-NBAs? Those are pathetic meaningless trinkets compared to the evidence presented above.

Curry's PEAK is fantastic. Peak alone does not count. Many other factors involved. And in Curry's PEAK season, he lost to the Cavs in the finals while playing terribly and then the Warriors CRIED/CALLED KD and BEGGED him to join the team :roll:

Curry's Magnum Opus in the 2022 season in my opinion. Legendary stuff. He was the man from start to finish. These are pros to Curry's all time ranking.

But it's not enough to put him in the 10 ten. It's over man, just deal with it.

Curry still is playing and has a chance to do more which is exciting.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 11:52 AM

All your questions have been answered. If you choose to plug your ears and ignore what is right in front of you that's your problem.

You did answer them, but your answers are incorrect. The crux of your argument is that MVPs, FMVPs, ALL-NBAs do not matter lol. It's a bad argument.

You can try to paint narratives about KD/Curry, but the overall performance of their careers are very similar. Curry hasn't done enough to clearly be ahead of KD.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 12 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 10 all star games, 1 steals leader

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

RRR3

08-09-2024, 11:55 AM

You did answer them, but your answers are incorrect. The crux of your argument is that MVPs, FMVPs, ALL-NBAs do not matter lol. It's a bad argument.

You can try to paint narratives about KD/Curry, but the overall performance of their careers are very similar. Curry hasn't done enough to clearly be ahead of KD.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 12 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 10 all star games, 1 steals leader

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%
Why are you arguing with someone who said Curry is better than MJ?

Carbine

08-09-2024, 11:57 AM

KD on the other hand is much tougher argument to make.

He never won without Curry, that's pretty big point that can't be countered. Durant has also been in my opinion a poor leader, he's much better when he's not relied upon to be the locker room leader but that's a knock against him for sure.

And his overall resume isn't THAT great. It's not like Hakeem where he has all this awards for both areas of his play. KD had more all NBA's but it's clearly not enough to offset never winning (and usually failing) without the Warriors.

Peak play is arguable. I would take Durant as just players but when you take into account leadership and the brand of basketball (can't believe I'm using a 3ball reference here but it's true) that Curry gives his teams generally vs the iso ball Durant enjoys employing (he has complained about running sets a lot in the past and wants more ISO) I think I'll take Curry.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:57 AM

I'm fully aware of Curry's impact. Curry was more efficient scoring in 2015 finals than Lebron, no doubt about that. But it was literally on 10ppg less a game which is huge volume difference. Meanwhile LeBron outrebounded Curry 13 to 5, and had a 8.8/3.5 ass/turnover performance while Curry was 6.3/4.7 ass/turnover. Also everyone with eyes saw Lebron was forced to play a certain style due to injuries to his top two teammates.

I can't imagine how badly Curry would've been smashed in that series if he didn't have Klay/Dray due to injuries. Curry vs Lebron/Kyrie/Love? LOL, it's a bloodbath.

LeBron on a team displays what can be considered in economics to be a crowding out effect. By monopolizing the ball he gives his teammates less to do and cannibalizes their potential contribution.

This is most readily seen in how Steph, KD, and Klay provide a far more potent offensive punch than LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

Curry was keeping LeBron and Anthony Davis at bay for most of their play-in game in 2021 with the likes of Kenneth Bazemore, Juan Toscano-Andersen, and Mychal Mulder as key rotation players. Is that the bloodbath you envision?

dankok8

08-09-2024, 12:07 PM

Except almost everything thing you said is not true. Curry wouldn't even won a ring in 2015 if Kyrie/Love were healthy. So the fact the he won "as the best player" doesn't even matter because it was against the worst finals opponent of all time due to injuries. And it still took him 6 games. And he still lost FMVP to his teammate.

He wouldn't win based against the healthy Cavs based on what? Kyrie played Game 1 and the Warriors still won in OT. And Warriors won the last three games by large margins. Kyrie/Love being there probably wouldn't change the outcome of those games. Those guys aren't such high impact players to be worth 20 points. In fact, the Warriors most likely win the series even against a healthy Cavs team.

Him losing the FMVP doesn't change the fact that he was the best player.

And again, anyone with eyes saw Lebron/KD were on a HIGHER tier than Curry in the 2017/2018 finals. Curry COULD NOT compete directly with Lebron while Durant DID. Durant's finals performances in 2017/2018 were off the damn charts. Curry was a clear 3rd in those series.

Sure.. in 2017 maybe. In 2018 Curry was better than KD in 3/4 games.

Durant was also on his way to a THIRD FMVP in a row in 2019 and was clearly the best player come playoff time for the Warriors. Before he got hurt, Durant was putting up 35/5/5 on 66.4 TS% in the playoffs. He was playing like a damn 7 foot MJ.

Ok and...

Curry has literally never outplayed Lebron in a playoff series. Curry vs Durant however is a very interesting and fantastic argument. And guess what? NO ONE has Durant in the top ten.

Curry is clearly the superior player as far as impact goes.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 12:07 PM

LeBron on a team displays what can be considered in economics to be a crowding out effect. By monopolizing the ball he gives his teammates less to do and cannibalizes their potential contribution.

This is most readily seen in how the Steph, KD, and Klay provide a far more potent offensive punch than LeBron, Wade and Bosh.

Curry was keeping LeBron and Anthony Davis at bay for most of their elimination game in 2021 with the likes of Kenneth Bazemore, Juan Toscano-Andersen, and Mychal Mulder as key rotation players. Is that the bloodbath you envisioned?

Elimination game is not the same as a full playoff series.

Let me be clear, I am not a Curry hater. I love Curry and was watching ever since his Davidson days in college.

I simply think that most casual fans want to put him in the top ten because of his exciting playstyle. I am simply saying that I think based on production and accomplishments, Curry is not yet in the top 10.

The only chance to put Curry in the top ten is if you simply remove Wilt/Bill from consideration due to playing so long ago. You'd also have to remove Oscar/Jerry West who can definitely be argued in the top 15 all time.

If fans/media want to agree that the NEW top 10 should basically be 1980-onwards (making an exception to add Kareem in there too), then yeah I could see a list like this. Again, this is after removing multiple players lol.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron/Kareem
Tier 3 - Shaq/Duncan/Magic/Kobe
Tier 4 - Bird/Hakeem

We would then have to decide who to put in the 10th spot of out these players. Curry, KD, Moses Malone, Giannis, Jokic.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 12:08 PM

All your criteria needs to be to rank Hakeem over Steph is peak play. If you value what you did over a few seasons worth of play it's not worth arguing with someone who says Hakeem is above Curry.

Hakeem was the best offensive and defensive player in the league. Very few players in the league's history can say they were both simultaneously. He backed it up with back to back titles.

If your criteria is peak play + resume he still stacks well against Curry. He has more all NBA teams, significantly more all NBA defensive teams, two DPOYs, more finals MVPs while Curry has two more titles and one more Reg MVP which isn't insignificant but overall the resumes aren't clearly better than the other where someone is delusional if they pick either one.

Peak play? When is the season Hakeem deserved a unanimous MVP? When is the season he changed the way the game is played? Hakeem's arguments for peak are conventional. Curry's are exceptional. Curry's 2016 forces a reevaluation of the conventional because they simply cannot explain the success Curry's teams were producing.

Hakeem never beat the biggest rival of his era and only won championships against those who never led a team to a championship. [Edit: I'm wrong here. Forgot to account for Shaq. Still that's basically it.]

Hakeem's resume stacks well against Curry? If having less than half of Curry's accomplishments is stacking well perhaps. Oh but you consider defensive awards as separate accomplishments. No wonder. Double count a DPOY and All-Defensive in a category which is basically a made-up achievement.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 12:14 PM

He wouldn't win based against the healthy Cavs based on what? Kyrie played Game 1 and the Warriors still won in OT. And Warriors won the last three games by large margins. Kyrie/Love being there probably wouldn't change the outcome of those games. Those guys aren't such high impact players to be worth 20 points. In fact, the Warriors most likely win the series even against a healthy Cavs team.

Him losing the FMVP doesn't change the fact that he was the best player.

Sure.. in 2017 maybe. In 2018 Curry was better than KD in 3/4 games.

Ok and...

Curry is clearly the superior player as far as impact goes.

Obviously this is hypothetical, but the odds are much higher that the Cavs WIN with Kyrie/Love and not lose lol. You also have to understand that the 2015 Warriors were the weakest version of their dynasty. They clearly had a lot of confidence in winning once Kyrie also left the series (so no Kyrie and love).

Also don't pull that crap of "oh Curry was better in 3/4 games". All the games count. KD HAS CURRY BEAT ACROSS THE BOARD IN 2018.

KD 2018 finals: 29/11/8 with 3.1 stocks, 2.3 turnovers on 65.4 TS%, 26.9 gamescore (absurd statline)

Curry 2018 finals: 27.5/6/7 with 2.3 stocks, 2.8 turnovers on 56 TS%. 20.1 gamescore.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 12:28 PM

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 12:50 PM

Elimination game is not the same as a full playoff series.

Let me be clear, I am not a Curry hater. I love Curry and was watching ever since his Davidson days in college.

I simply think that most casual fans want to put him in the top ten because of his exciting playstyle. I am simply saying that I think based on production and accomplishments, Curry is not yet in the top 10.

The only chance to put Curry in the top ten is if you simply remove Wilt/Bill from consideration due to playing so long ago. You'd also have to remove Oscar/Jerry West who can definitely be argued in the top 15 all time.

If fans/media want to agree that the NEW top 10 should basically be 1980-onwards (making an exception to add Kareem in there too), then yeah I could see a list like this. Again, this is after removing multiple players lol.

Tier 1 - MJ
Tier 2 - Lebron/Kareem
Tier 3 - Shaq/Duncan/Magic/Kobe
Tier 4 - Bird/Hakeem

We would then have to decide who to put in the 10th spot of out these players. Curry, KD, Moses Malone, Giannis, Jokic.

You can keep repeating yourself ad nauseum but just because you say so doesn't mean it makes any sense.

What makes more sense are arguments like these:
The guy who led a team to the best single season regular season record ever is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team to the best single season playoffs record is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team to three consecutive 67 or more win seasons is a top ten player.
The guy who led the greatest NBA team ever is a top ten player.
The guy who led the team with the longest preseason championship odds to a championship is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team that had the absolute worst record in the league two years ago to a championship is a top ten player.
The guy who with the same team led it to the finals 5 consecutive times is a top ten player.
The guy who produced a statistical season so great that he was named the only unanimous MVP so far is a top ten player.
The guy who changed the way the game is played is a top ten player.

Take note also that this guy plays in the modern era, in the tougher conference, in a league that has not seen expansion recently, and is the only player under 6'3 who is even in the running for top ten player and he is a top ten player.

After elucidating all the above---you know what?---I get the feeling this guy isn't just a top ten player.
He should be even higher.

Oh did we fail to mention he is also the greatest shooter ever? Yeah. Because it's not necessary. It's a lesser achievement on his resume.

Carbine

08-09-2024, 12:52 PM

Peak play? When is the season Hakeem deserved a unanimous MVP? When is the season he changed the way the game is played? Hakeem's arguments for peak are conventional. Curry's are exceptional. Curry's 2016 forces a reevaluation of the conventional because they simply cannot explain the success Curry's teams were producing.

Hakeem never beat the biggest rival of his era and only won championships against those who never led a team to a championship. [Edit: I'm wrong here. Forgot to account for Shaq. Still that's basically it.]

Hakeem's resume stacks well against Curry? If having less than half of Curry's accomplishments is stacking well perhaps. Oh but you consider defensive awards as separate accomplishments. No wonder. Double count a DPOY and All-Defensive in a category which is basically a made-up achievement.

If you think Hakeem has less than half the resume of Steph you are not worth arguing with. Just more agenda driven posters that don't want to deal in reality.

Also just one point regarding the unanimous MVP.

It happened because it was a weak season for MVP candidates outside of Curry. Kawhi was #2 and his averages were 21/7/2.5 and Lebron had "off" seasons his first two years in Cleveland during the regular season.

Meanwhile when Hakeem won it he had to contend with peak Davis Robinson doing 30/11/5 with DPOY level defense. This season Robinson was one of only 3 players since '90 to have a 20 win share season... MJ and '09 Bron are the only others. That was Hakeems competition for MVP when he won it. Hopefully you have enough brain cells to understand the point I'm making.

StrongLurk

08-09-2024, 12:54 PM

You can keep repeating yourself ad nauseum but just because you say so doesn't mean it makes any sense.

What makes more sense are arguments like these:
The guy who led a team to the best single season regular season record ever is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team to the best single season playoffs record is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team to three consecutive 67 or more win seasons is a top ten player.
The guy who led the greatest NBA team ever is a top ten player.
The guy who led the team with the longest preseason championship odds to a championship is a top ten player.
The guy who led a team that had the absolute worst record in the league two years ago to a championship is a top ten player.
The guy who with the same team led it to the finals 5 consecutive times is a top ten player.
The guy who produced a statistical season so great that he was named the only unanimous MVP so far is a top ten player.
The guy who changed the way the game is played is a top ten player.

Take note also that this guy plays in the modern era, in the tougher conference, in a league that has not seen expansion recently, and is the only player under 6'3 who is even in the running for top ten player and he is a top ten player.

After elucidating all the above---you know what?---I get the feeling this guy isn't just a top ten player.
He should be even higher.

Oh did we fail to mention he is also the greatest shooter ever? Yeah. Because it's not necessary. It's a lesser achievement on his resume.

These are all very impressive things by Curry. The bolded are up for debate considering KD was better when it mattered (playoffs/finals) and the "greatest team ever" ultimately lost in the finals.

You are misunderstanding the whole premise. I am not saying Curry's accomplishments don't matter. Some of them are unique. But everyone else in the top 10 also has insane accomplishments, resumes, and production.

It's an absurdly stacked deck that Curry can't quite climb into.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 12:57 PM

It’s pretty hard to argue against Hakeem if your criteria is just winning a ring with the least possible help. It would either be him or 2003 Duncan. Of course using that as your only criteria and ignoring all context would be braindead but it’s interesting how people claim to care about this criteria and yet never rank Hakeem or Duncan accordingly.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:05 PM

These are all very impressive things by Curry. The bolded are up for debate considering KD was better when it mattered (playoffs/finals) and the "greatest team ever" ultimately lost in the finals.

You are misunderstanding the whole premise. I am not saying Curry's accomplishments don't matter. Some of them are unique. But everyone else in the top 10 also has insane accomplishments, resumes, and production.

It's an absurdly stacked deck that Curry can't quite climb into.

Actually no. Durant has no or weak claims to the ones you highlighted. Durant was only part of one of the 67-win or more seasons the Warriors had and that was the season he was injured towards the end of the season and missed 15 games and some playoffs games too. That 2017 version is commonly thought of as the greatest version of the Warriors and it reached that point because the offense ran through Curry. Similarly KD with his Achilles injury in 2019 with the second round series still in the balance cannot be said to have led the team to the finals that year. Oh and of course he wasn't around on the team for 2015 and 2016.

The deck is absurdly stacked but not including the guy who was key to the greatest team ever would be an even greater absurdity—and that is ignoring everything else.

tpols

08-09-2024, 01:08 PM

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Why is that so funny?

Cleveland did lose with Kyrie in the 2015 Finals and he played well that game. With how badly Love was marginalized it's not far fetched at all to think Golden State could win.

It's funny you guys are trying to rewrite history like the warriors didn't have the cavs number. :lol

The facts just don't bare that out.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:12 PM

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:13 PM

Curry had longer preseason odds in 2015 than both.
That has nothing to do with how good teams were during the actual season.

ShawkFactory

08-09-2024, 01:15 PM

That has nothing to do with how good teams were during the actual season.

It's funny how often an interesting piece of trivia gets brought up as something actually meaningful :lol

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:16 PM

That has nothing to do with how good teams were during the actual season.

So you are saying a team that underperforms in the regular season despite being expected to do better but still eventually wins the championship is to be lauded more than a team that exceeds expectations throughout the whole season?

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:18 PM

So you are saying a team that underperforms in the regular season despite being expected to do better but still eventually wins the championship is to be lauded more than a team that exceeds expectations throughout the whole season?
I'm not sure what point you think you're making but you'd have to be genuinely stupid to argue Tim Duncan in 2003 or Hakeem in 94 had more or even equivalent help to what Curry had in 2015.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:18 PM

It's funny how often an interesting piece of trivia gets brought up as something actually meaningful :lol

Because it actually is. It doesn't have the hindsight bias that people add on after-the-fact.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:21 PM

I'm not sure what point you think you're making but you'd have to be genuinely stupid to argue Tim Duncan in 2003 or Hakeem in 94 had more or even equivalent help to what Curry had in 2015.

Why not? Who did Curry have who was much more proven than what Hakeem or Duncan were working with?

tpols

08-09-2024, 01:23 PM

So you are saying a team that underperforms in the regular season despite being expected to do better but still eventually wins the championship is to be lauded more than a team that exceeds expectations throughout the whole season?

Straight ether. :lol

Golden State was a -2500 massive title underdog in 2015. While Cleveland was the favorite over every other team.

These are certifiable facts.

People are basically punishing them for overachieving. One of their best players All Star David Lee even got hurt but they found a way to overcome that and still blow expectations out the water.

Carbine

08-09-2024, 01:25 PM

Why not? Who did Curry have who was much more proven than what Hakeem or Duncan were working with?

Duncans "second option" got benched in the finals for Speedy Claxton.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:25 PM

Why not? Who did Curry have who was much more proven than what Hakeem or Duncan were working with?
Um...Klay and Green? Klay was an all-star and all-nba that year, Draymond was first team all-d and second in DPOY voting. Duncan had...37 year old David Robinson as a backup? 20 year old Tony Parker who wasn't even good yet? Rookie Manu scoring 7.6 PPG? Hakeem had...one time all-star Otis Thorpe? And after that, who did he have? Kenny Smith? :oldlol: Vernon "the brick" Maxwell? :roll: Robert Horry? :lol

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:26 PM

Duncans "second option" got benched in the finals for Speedy Claxton.
Duncan isn't losing a single game in the 03 playoffs if he has Klay and Green.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:38 PM

Um...Klay and Green? Klay was an all-star and all-nba that year, Draymond was first team all-d and second in DPOY voting. Duncan had...37 year old David Robinson as a backup? 20 year old Tony Parker who wasn't even good yet? Rookie Manu scoring 7.6 PPG? Hakeem had...one time all-star Otis Thorpe? And after that, who did he have? Kenny Smith? :oldlol: Vernon "the brick" Maxwell? :roll: Robert Horry? :lol

See you're applying hindsight bias that cannot be separated from being with Curry. Would Klay and Green be as decorated that year if they didn't play with Curry? Winning 67 games is a big boon to drawing such awards and while one suspects they earned it, if the question is could they do it without Curry which the subject of this discussion demands, we can only deal in hypotheticals because they actually haven't done it without Curry.

In comparison we can say definitively that Robert Horry earned rings on multiple other teams aside from the Rockets and Manu would lead a team that beat the United States in the Olympics the following year.

Duncan isn't losing a single game in the 03 playoffs if he has Klay and Green.
Take away Parker and Bowen in exchange and I think it is less certain.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:39 PM

d-duhh-uhhh-uhhhh!!!
That isn't hindsight bias you retard those are their accomplishments from THAT season. Can you read? Please tell me a single player on the 03 Spurs or 94 Rockets remotely close to 15 Klay or 15 Green.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:42 PM

That isn't hindsight bias you retard those are their accomplishments from THAT season. Can you read? Please tell me a single player on the 03 Spurs or 94 Rockets remotely close to 15 Klay or 15 Green.

Manu probably was even if he hadn't been called to produce as much yet.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:45 PM

Manu probably was even if he hadn't been called to produce as much yet.
The guy who put up 9.4 PPG on 38.6% in the playoffs was good as Klay at his best? :yaohappy:

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 01:53 PM

The guy who put up 9.4 PPG on 38.6% in the playoffs was good as Klay at his best? :yaohappy:

We're talking about 2003 here are we not? A time when defense was making the game boring?

Klay was 24. Manu was 25. Manu would the next year lead a team to triumph over the United States. Do you think Klay could lead a team to upset Team USA if he was on Team Argentina?

Klay's shooting percentages benefit greatly from playing with Curry. Would subtracting 3% from Klay's shooting percentage as one analysis concluded not affect Klay's value?

RRR3

08-09-2024, 01:55 PM

We're talking about 2003 here are we not? A time when defense was making the game boring?

Klay was 24. Manu was 25. Manu would the next year lead a team to triumph over the United States. Do you think Klay could lead a team to upset Team USA if he was on Team Argentina?

Klay's shooting percentages benefit greatly from playing with Curry. Would subtracting 3% from Klay's shooting percentage as one analysis concluded not affect Klay's value?
Manu was a lot better a year later, and FIBA is not the same as the NBA (different rules and dimensions). You desperately trying to pretend 2003 Manu was anywhere near his prime self is disturbing. Besides you completely skipped the Rockets even if I entertain your delusions about the Spurs (and even if we accept 03 Manu as star level, Curry had two star level teammates in 15, not 1)

dankok8

08-09-2024, 02:45 PM

Why is that so funny?

Cleveland did lose with Kyrie in the 2015 Finals and he played well that game. With how badly Love was marginalized it's not far fetched at all to think Golden State could win.

It's funny you guys are trying to rewrite history like the warriors didn't have the cavs number. :lol

The facts just don't bare that out.

Yep. The 2015 Warriors played much better in the playoffs than the 2016 Warriors. Not even close. Maybe a healthy Cavs team COULD beat them but that's far from a guarantee.

ShawkFactory

08-09-2024, 02:54 PM

Because it actually is. It doesn't have the hindsight bias that people add on after-the-fact.

A team taking a leap and playing better than expected, and people then acknowledging that they were a great team isn't hindsight bias.

They were a great team. That's what happened.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 03:17 PM

Manu was a lot better a year later, and FIBA is not the same as the NBA (different rules and dimensions). You desperately trying to pretend 2003 Manu was anywhere near his prime self is disturbing. Besides you completely skipped the Rockets even if I entertain your delusions about the Spurs (and even if we accept 03 Manu as star level, Curry had two star level teammates in 15, not 1)

The Rockets? People harp on how weak a roster Hakeem had but really they look like a very solid bunch. Otis Thorpe was an all-star the previous year and shot 50% from three. Smith was an almost 45% 3-point shooter in the playoffs. Combined those two produced slightly more and at much better percentages than Klay who was only 39% from three. Maxwell's offense was comparable to Draymond's and Horry's to Barnes'. Pairing them off like that would leave Iguodala with a superior comparison against Cassell but it would basically only offset the advantage Thorpe and Smith have over Klay. I don't see how the 1994 Rockets can be said to have a weaker roster than the 2015 Warriors.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 03:22 PM

A team taking a leap and playing better than expected, and people then acknowledging that they were a great team isn't hindsight bias.

They were a great team. That's what happened.

The Rockets went back-to-back as champions. Multiple players from that team then went on to get rings on other teams. They were a great team. But for some reason the story now is Hakeem carried them and it is one of the most impressive carries ever. Huh?

Curry carried the 2015 Warriors just about as much as Hakeem did his 1994 team.

ShawkFactory

08-09-2024, 03:35 PM

The Rockets went back-to-back as champions. Multiple players from that team then went on to get rings on other teams. They were a great team. But for some reason the story now is Hakeem carried them and it is one of the most impressive carries ever. Huh?

Curry carried the 2015 Warriors just about as much as Hakeem did his 1994 team.

Well yea because they were very young and even after winning the finals I don't think anyone would call them a great team. Sure guys like Thorpe, Jet, Maxwell were good players and certainly gamers, but in the great scheme of things even in hindsight that was not a hugely talented team.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 03:37 PM

Well yea because they were very young and even after winning the finals I don't think anyone would call them a great team. Sure guys like Thorpe, Jet, Maxwell were good players and certainly gamers, but in the great scheme of things even in hindsight that was not a hugely talented team.
Maxwell was not good, at least on offense. Not a single season at league average efficiency (and he was rarely even close, it was shockingly bad)

tpols

08-09-2024, 03:55 PM

The Rockets went back-to-back as champions. Multiple players from that team then went on to get rings on other teams. They were a great team. But for some reason the story now is Hakeem carried them and it is one of the most impressive carries ever. Huh?

Curry carried the 2015 Warriors just about as much as Hakeem did his 1994 team.

Yup.

People don't talk about how Hakeem beat Ewing with a bed wetting John Starks in the 1994 Finals. Meaning his competition was on a similar level of help.

Or how in 1995 he had the former runner up MVP Clyde Drexler still in his prime as his running mate who had an awesome playoff run and whom was a way better player than Klay.

A lot of the people you're arguing with here weren't even born at the time of these events but we have it all on tape to be watched right now so there's no excuse for their ignorance.

ShawkFactory

08-09-2024, 04:57 PM

Maxwell was not good, at least on offense. Not a single season at league average efficiency (and he was rarely even close, it was shockingly bad)

Watch some of those games. He was a high energy guy and borderline enforcer. He could score 0 points and make an impact.

The team had several guys like that who defended well and weren’t afraid of the moment. Even with that, as far as championship teams go they weren’t on the level of pretty much any other ever.

Carbine

08-09-2024, 05:12 PM

Yup.

People don't talk about how Hakeem beat Ewing with a bed wetting John Starks in the 1994 Finals. Meaning his competition was on a similar level of help.

Or how in 1995 he had the former runner up MVP Clyde Drexler still in his prime as his running mate who had an awesome playoff run and whom was a way better player than Klay.

A lot of the people you're arguing with here weren't even born at the time of these events but we have it all on tape to be watched right now so there's no excuse for their ignorance.

Clyde's prime ended when he had surgery on his knee. He was never the same (though still really good) after that. For as much as YOU talk about "we have the tapes" you perhaps have not watched them for yourself.

In 95 the Rockets were a 6th seed and almost beat three 60+ win teams to advance to the finals. Utah won 60, Sun's won 59 and Spurs won 62. He went through Malone, Barkley and the reigning MVP Robinson and Shaq in the finals. No injuries to opposing teams to taint the wins. It was the gauntlet of all gauntlets

Hakeem averaged 33 ppg in the playoffs. His run is impeachable.

RRR3

08-09-2024, 05:34 PM

Watch some of those games. He was a high energy guy and borderline enforcer. He could score 0 points and make an impact.

The team had several guys like that who defended well and weren’t afraid of the moment. Even with that, as far as championship teams go they weren’t on the level of pretty much any other ever.
I said on offense, if he was a good defender that's cool but that's still a Marcus Smart type guy, not really notable help for Hakeem

ShawkFactory

08-09-2024, 05:41 PM

I said on offense, if he was a good defender that's cool but that's still a Marcus Smart type guy, not really notable help for Hakeem

Marcus Smart is a pretty good comp I’d suppose. He was a very important part of the team from a culture standpoint.

Kind of like Rick Mahorn for the bad boys. The numbers weren’t anything special at all, even below average for his position but his presence was huge for the fierceness of the team overall. Once they lost him they sort of lost their edge.

Stephonit

08-09-2024, 11:05 PM

Clyde's prime ended when he had surgery on his knee. He was never the same (though still really good) after that. For as much as YOU talk about "we have the tapes" you perhaps have not watched them for yourself.

In 95 the Rockets were a 6th seed and almost beat three 60+ win teams to advance to the finals. Utah won 60, Sun's won 59 and Spurs won 62. He went through Malone, Barkley and the reigning MVP Robinson and Shaq in the finals. No injuries to opposing teams to taint the wins. It was the gauntlet of all gauntlets

Hakeem averaged 33 ppg in the playoffs. His run is impeachable.

Clyde's knee surgery was when? 1992? Drexler was still All-NBA Third Team in 1995.

Can you imagine if KD didn't leave Golden State and had come back in 2021 after his Achilles injury and won another championship with Curry? Are people going to say Curry's run was unimpeachable? Would they even give Curry primary credit?

Hakeem's 1995 was a terrific run but a team headed by a duo of Hakeem and Drexler (who joined later in the season thus making the 6th seed placement misleading as a measure of the team's strength) winning isn't totally surprising even against Stockton and Malone, Kevin Johnson and Barkley, Robinson and Rodman, and young Shaq and Hardaway.

Carbine

08-10-2024, 12:29 AM

They were 17-18 after the trade.

warriorfan

08-10-2024, 04:37 AM

Watch some of those games. He was a high energy guy and borderline enforcer. He could score 0 points and make an impact.

The team had several guys like that who defended well and weren’t afraid of the moment. Even with that, as far as championship teams go they weren’t on the level of pretty much any other ever.

+1

Max was legit. Draymond green at guard. He could get hot and start draining big 3’s.,Thorpe was also underrated with his grimy type play, not flashy but was a solid 4 for sure.

Carbine

08-10-2024, 06:39 AM

+1

Max was legit. Draymond green at guard. He could get hot and start draining big 3’s.,Thorpe was also underrated with his grimy type play, not flashy but was a solid 4 for sure.

He was similar in regards to personality but Max was not the Draymond of guards. Maxwell never made an all NBA defensive team let alone DPOY.

Secondly Maxwell was the #2 option in the 1994 playoffs and had a 47 TS on 13 ppg. It might be the worst #2 option ever.Just wildly inefficient and low producing.

Draymond was never asked to be a #2 option on a championship team (he was #3, #4 and #5 during the four titles)

Maxwell also quit the team after a game 1 loss to the Jazz in the 1995 playoffs. Truly bitch made.

warriorfan

08-10-2024, 09:48 AM

He was similar in regards to personality but Max was not the Draymond of guards. Maxwell never made an all NBA defensive team let alone DPOY.

Secondly Maxwell was the #2 option in the 1994 playoffs and had a 47 TS on 13 ppg. It might be the worst #2 option ever.Just wildly inefficient and low producing.

Draymond was never asked to be a #2 option on a championship team (he was #3, #4 and #5 during the four titles)

Maxwell also quit the team after a game 1 loss to the Jazz in the 1995 playoffs. Truly bitch made.

lebron shot 47% TS in the finals and people try to say it was a good performance

ShawkFactory

08-10-2024, 10:16 AM

Yea the Draymond comps are hyperbolic. He was similar personality but Dray just did pretty much everything better and was more impactful.

tpols

08-10-2024, 05:18 PM

Yo where is this clown Stronglurk now¿

:roll:

gengiskhan

08-10-2024, 05:32 PM

Yo where is this clown Stronglurk now¿

:roll:

with his mouth, hanging on LeTesticles. :roll:

tpols

08-10-2024, 05:33 PM

Strongdork... where you @ my G?

You were running your mouth. :lol

StrongLurk

08-10-2024, 07:53 PM

Strongdork... where you @ my G?

You were running your mouth. :lol

Do you seriously want to try to include olympic play when it comes to all-time NBA rankings?

I don't think you want to go that route.

It just cements Lebron as the GOAT and actually puts Durant easily ahead of Curry in the all-time rankings (KD all time olympic scoring leader and FOUR gold medals). Also plenty of players in the top ten already had gold medals which Curry lacked until now.

So yeah, just stop buddy. I was rooting for every single player on the USA team just like a normal American should. I loved every second of Curry's last two games. It doesn't make him a top 10 NBA player of all time. Frankly it's weird that you think I'm hating on Curry or something. I'm literally giving Curry his flowers by saying he is firmly a top 15 player of all time.

90sgoat

08-10-2024, 08:05 PM

Do you seriously want to try to include olympic play when it comes to all-time NBA rankings?

Absolutely you want.

Not the results as such, that's a team effort, but how you look, how you adapt to FIBA ball, how you carry yourself as a person and player.

Chef Curry brought it this tourney. He waited until the semis to show it, but at the end of the competition, no one was in doubt who was the phenom, the legend, the larger than life and it was the smallest guy on the court.

Qui qui, chefs kiss to the Dingo.