A truly terrible defender or a truly terrible shooter.

[Kblaze8855]

Your team has to draft and play one of the worst defenders or one of the Worst shooters in the league at point for the next 10 years. They will never get better at the missing aspect. Nothing can be done to improve it.

Which terrible option do you choose Not knowing anything else about the player in question?

[Real Men Wear Green]

If the guy doesn't suck in any other area the bad shooter will be better-liked by teammates and fans than the bad defender who will be viewed as lazy. The teammates will also like playing with a guy who gives them the ball more than the guy that shoots more while giving up 30 every night.

[tontoz]

At pg i would take the bad defender. We've already seen this with Trae. At pg offense is more important than defense.

The other players can cover for a bad defender at pg to a degree. That is the bet Minny made drafting Dillingham.

[Kblaze8855]

If the guy doesn't suck in any other area the bad shooter will be better-liked by teammates and fans than the bad defender who will be viewed as lazy. The teammates will also like playing with a guy who gives them the ball more than the guy that shoots more while giving up 30 every night.



I fundamentally agree but he better be Rondo if not Phoenix Kidd to offset being treated like this in the playoffs as his scorers get double teamed


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Fans turn quick

[Real Men Wear Green]

At pg i would take the bad defender. We've already seen this with Trae. At pg offense is more important than defense.

The other players can cover for a bad defender at pg to a degree. That is the bet Minny made drafting Dillingham.

Trae Young is a star offensive talent though. The bad shooter equivalent would be Kidd or at least Rondo. Young vs Rondo is debatable and Young vs Kidd isn't even debatable.

[ShawkFactory]

So I know this isn't a part of the question but could the bad shooting PG be an excellent finisher? Or have a great floater?

[Real Men Wear Green]

I fundamentally agree but he better be Rondo if not Phoenix Kidd to offset being treated like this in the playoffs as his scorers get double teamed


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Fans turn quick

In the playoffs a flawed player will get their flaws attacked. Which flaw is worse depends on their teammates and what else the player is good at to make up for it. But defender is actually half the game. Shooting is the most important skill but it isn't a whole half of the game. Since we're talking playoffs and not just a regular season, in the Finals a big reason why the Celtics handled Dallas so easily is Doncic's defense. It both got them great offense (especially when he had to cover Brown) as well as wore him out so that he wasn't effective in the 4th quarter. On the flip side the Celtics won a championship with Rondo. If you have great offensive teammates you can cover for a bad shooter. Hiding the bad defender is not so easy on that highest level.

[ShawkFactory]

At pg i would take the bad defender. We've already seen this with Trae. At pg offense is more important than defense.

The other players can cover for a bad defender at pg to a degree. That is the bet Minny made drafting Dillingham.

We've seen that Hawks truly not able to compete aside from that one run to the ECF because Trae is going to be hunted mercilessly in the playoffs.

[beasted]

Bad shooting means everywhere, right? Not only 3 PT shooting, but also mid range, FT.... basically anything outside of a short- range floater, layup, or dunk, we should expect them to be bad, correct?

Give me the poor defense. Easily.

[tontoz]

Trae Young is a star offensive talent though. The bad shooter equivalent would be Kidd or at least Rondo. Young vs Rondo is debatable and Young vs Kidd isn't even debatable.

Kidd shot 34.9% from 3 for his career, made 10 AS games and was All NBA 1st team 5 times.

Trae made one 3rd team All NBA and has made only 3 AS games in the weak east.

Not a great comparison.

[tontoz]

We've seen that Hawks truly not able to compete aside from that one run to the ECF because Trae is going to be hunted mercilessly in the playoffs.

He hasn't exactly had a loaded roster to play with. And lets not forget how good Trae was during their ECF run.

[ShawkFactory]

He hasn't exactly had a loaded roster to play with. And lets not forget how good Trae was during their ECF run.

Not loaded, but at times very strong.

He was great on that run but it was the first one and teams didn't do what they should have to him. His game has sort of been figured out at this point.

[Neal Romer]

Why not draft a typical Lebron teammate who is amply deficient in both?

[Real Men Wear Green]

Kidd shot 34.9% from 3 for his career, made 10 AS games and was All NBA 1st team 5 times.

Trae made one 3rd team All NBA and has made only 3 AS games in the weak east.

Not a great comparison.
Are you seriously ignoring the known fact that Kidf entered the NBA as a bad shooter? Several seasons he shot below 34% from three, 40% shooter overqll for his career with multiple seasons he shot below 40%. He was a bad shooter for much of his career but still made allstar games on the strength of being great at everything else, especially passing and creating for others.

[tontoz]

Are you seriously ignoring the known fact that Kidf entered the NBA as a bad shooter? Several seasons he shot below 34% from three, 40% shooter overqll for his career with multiple seasons he shot below 40%. He was a bad shooter for much of his career but still made allstar games on the strength of being great at everything else, especially passing and creating for others.


First of all i am using his career numbers from 3. I am not ignoring anything since his first few seasons are included in his career numbers. Duh

Kidd also shot 78.5% from the foul line for his career. Pretty sure that doesn't qualify as bad but i have no doubt you will point to a few bad seasons as if they have some special significance. News flash, they don't.

FG%? Seriously? Trae has a career FG% of 43.6%.

But the bottom line is that of course nobody will take a guy who made one 3rd team All NBA over a guy who made 1st team All NBA 5 times. They aren't even remotely on the same level.

[tpols]

So basically Rudy Gobert or (new school) Isiah Thomas...?

Would have to go with the Frenchman.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He shot 40% because he was overall a poor shooter. This is just a known fact, anyone that followed the NBA from the mid/late 90s on knows that Kidd's only weakness was his jumper.

[tontoz]

So basically Rudy Gobert or (new school) Isiah Thomas...?

Would have to go with the Frenchman.


Not a valid comparison. OP mentioned the point so i assume he is only talking about pgs.

[tontoz]

He shot 40% because he was overall a poor shooter. This is just a known fact, anyone that followed the NBA from the mid/late 90s on knows that Kidd's only weakness was his jumper.

And yet Kidd shot 34.9% from 3 for his career, only .06 worse than "offensive star" Trae.

[tpols]

In that case there aren't really many point guards who were total trash at shooting while being great defenders. Only guy I can think of is mugsy bogues because he was like 4'11.

Kidd retired a top 5 3pt shot maker of all time I believe and Rondo has had playoff runs shooting 40% sniper from 3. Most recently the Lakers 2020 bubble ring. Even below average shooting point guards can shoot. Elite shooters just make them look bad.

[Kblaze8855]

And yet Kidd shot 34.9% from 3 for his career, only .06 worse than "offensive star" Trae.

if I scroll up and read the rest of this conversation, I’m going to find that you aren’t really saying Jason Kidd and Trae Young are comparable shooters aren’t I? I’m driving right now.

[tpols]

So mugsy bogues vs Isiah thomas... would probably go mugsy because he'd be much cheaper. No brinks truck necessary.

[tontoz]

In that case there aren't really many point guards who were total trash at shooting while being great defenders. Only guy I can think of is mugsy bogues because he was like 4'11.

Kidd retired a top 5 3pt shot maker of all time I believe and Rondo has had playoff runs shooting 40% sniper from 3. Most recently the Lakers 2020 bubble ring. Even below average shooting point guards can shoot. Elite shooters just make them look bad.


Again i refer to OP. He said "not knowing anything else about their games" would you take a bad shooter or bad defender at the point.

[Real Men Wear Green]

And yet Kidd shot 34.9% from 3 for his career, only .06 worse than "offensive star" Trae.

That isn't a particularly good number and includes two seasons where he shot under 30%. For the first half of his career the three point shooting was up and down. And the overall shooting was just down. His threes were often wide open, a major reason Young's shooting number is what it is its that his shooting is feared so defenses key on him. Opponents didn't want Kidd carving them up to hit open teammates so they encouraged him shooting.

[tontoz]

if I scroll up and read the rest of this conversation, I’m going to find that you aren’t really saying Jason Kidd and Trae Young are comparable shooters aren’t I? I’m driving right now.


No. But if we are picking a guy who qualifies as a bad shooter for this comparison i dont think a guy who shoots 34.9% from 3 for his career (on good volume) and 78.5% from the line qualifies.

[tontoz]

That isn't a particularly good number and includes two seasons where he shot under 30%. For the first half of his career the three point shooting was up and down. And the overall shooting was just down. His threes were often wide open, a major reason Young's shooting number is what it is its that his shooting is feared so defenses key on him. Opponents didn't want Kidd carving them up to hit open teammates so they encouraged him shooting.

:facepalm

Kidd had 4 seasons shooting 40% from 3. Using your logic i think we can compare him to Ray Allen.

[Real Men Wear Green]

:facepalm

Kidd had 4 seasons shooting 40% from 3. Using your logic i think we can compare him to Ray Allen.

This isn't even an argument. Everyone that watched young Kidd knew he was a great point guard that was bad at shooting. Ray Allen doesn't have any seasons under 30% from three. This is intentionally stupid.

[tontoz]

This isn't even an argument. Everyone that watched young Kidd knew he was a great point guard that was bad at shooting. Ray Allen doesn't have any seasons under 30% from three. This is intentionally stupid.

Larry Bird had 4 straight seasons shooting under 30% from 3 so he was a bad 3 pt shooter, right?

:facepalm

Kidd played until he was 39 ffs. if you have to point to 2 seasons to try to make a point then you have no point.

[ShawkFactory]

Larry Bird had 4 straight seasons shooting under 30% from 3 so he was a bad 3 pt shooter, right?

:facepalm

Kidd played until he was 39 ffs. if you have to point to 2 seasons to try to make a point then you have no point.

Larry Bird's situation with the 3pt shot was not the same as Kidd's. Kidd learned to shoot the ball better in his later years but early prime Kidd is a good reference point here.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Larry Bird had 4 straight seasons shooting under 30% from 3 so he was a bad 3 pt shooter, right?

:facepalm

Kidd played until he was 39 ffs. if you have to point to 2 seasons to try to make a point then you have no point.

So you don't know anything about young Kidd. That's fine.

[tontoz]

Larry Bird's situation with the 3pt shot was not the same as Kidd's. Kidd learned to shoot the ball better in his later years but early prime Kidd is a good reference point here.

Kidd shot 37% from 3 in his 3rd season. He was inconsistent from 3 but not bad.

Where he really struggled offensively, relative to his peers, was trying to score inside 10 feet.

[WhiteKyrie]

Are you taking good defense always, much more valuable

[Im Still Ballin]

I'll take the truly terrible shooter, especially if he's an athletic 6'10" 240-pound fast-break demon who's a great ball handler and playmaker as well as a DPOY-level defender.

[tontoz]

I'll take the truly terrible shooter, especially if he's an athletic 6'10" 240-pound fast-break demon who's also a DPOY-level defender who's a great ball handler and playmaker.


There are no point guards that fit that description.

[Im Still Ballin]

There are no point guards that fit that description.

Sounds like a fantasy, doesn't it? Almost too good to be true. Like a big-ass Jason Kidd with worse shooting but better finishing in the paint. Imagine if someone like that did exist... I sure would've loved to have built a team around him.

[ILLsmak]

I fundamentally agree but he better be Rondo if not Phoenix Kidd to offset being treated like this in the playoffs as his scorers get double teamed


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Fans turn quick

It’s like hack A Shaq, it only works if your team collapses. It sucks, but if the shot is a makable good shot, keep shooting. If dude is super off, sit him. The nba is too dependent on shooting. No one has to shoot to punish defense. It’s just embarrassing to watch someone keep missing. I’d say it is impossible to truly not guard a player. Running zone is different, but even then, better to use the player in motion or as a passer (Rondo was never wet but he had some big impacts.)

If a player is not wet, you have to believe he can make up for it other places. Even Rodman could jack and make shots. It’s about rhythm and confidence. Again mentioning hack a shaq, it’s like how much it fails when you do it and the guy makes the fts.

Leaving people “open” is probably legit in spots, but I’d have a hard time believing any nba player these days is less capable of making a shot than making 2 free throws. Run your offense right, probe, if nothing then take the open shot.

Teams turning on each other seems like a newer thing.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Sounds like a fantasy, doesn't it? Almost too good to be true. Like a big-ass Jason Kidd with worse shooting but better finishing in the paint. Imagine if someone like that did exist... I sure would've loved to have built a team around him.

Yung Bron, and he’d still be a problem in today’s nba. Double Post!

-Smak