19 MIL, 07 DAL, 09 CLE & 16 GSW have comparable rosters, so RS record is poor guage

[3ba11]

Dwight Howard or Baron Davis beating 67-win teams isn't a goat achievement any more than Lebron beating 73-win team..

MJ never beat 67-win teams but he beat much better teams and rosters than the 07' Mavs or 16' Warriors.

Of course, it would've been impossible for Karl Malone to lose the 97' and 98' Finals if Stockton had outplayed MVP MJ like Kyrie did Curry... So in addition to RS records meaning very little, it's impossible to lose when a sidekick outplays the league MVP (unprecedented help).

Ultimately, the winning spotlight inflated Curry's roster of low-producers and 1st-time all-stars to all-time status and media accolade, when the reality is that Klay was a far lower producer than Jeff Hornacek

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html).... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)..... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts

[1987_Lakers]

So we are comparing Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris to Klay, Draymond, Bogut, & Iggy now.

[SouBeachTalents]

So we are comparing Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris to Klay, Draymond, Bogut, & Iggy now.
Bro, why are you even giving him a response :lol He doesn't actually believe a word he says, he just does this for the attention he clearly isn't getting in real life. Ignoring him would be a far bigger blow than proving his "arguments" wrong or even insulting him.

[ShawkFactory]

So we are comparing Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris to Klay, Draymond, Bogut, & Iggy now.

That’s what you went for?? I thought Mo Williams, Delonte West, and…Anderson Varejao(?) being comparable to that was much funnier.

[RRR3]

That’s what you went for?? I thought Mo Williams, Delonte West, and…Anderson Varejao(?) being comparable to that was much funnier.
There has quite literally never been a roster in LeBron's career he doesn't think was great. Let that sink in.

[tpols]

A lot of people forget Curry got hurt in the 2016 playoffs to the extent that he missed games.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Steph Curry has sat out a single playoff game in his career outside of 2016.

So yea... that kind of hurts since his UMVP play was the catalyst for everything.

[Phoenix]

Bro, why are you even giving him a response :lol He doesn't actually believe a word he says, he just does this for the attention he clearly isn't getting in real life. Ignoring him would be a far bigger blow than proving his "arguments" wrong or even insulting him.

I've been saying this for months now.

[ShawkFactory]

A lot of people forget Curry got hurt in the 2016 playoffs to the extent that he missed games.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Steph Curry has sat out a single playoff game in his career outside of 2016.

So yea... that kind of hurts since his UMVP play was the catalyst for everything.

He was fine. And if he wasn’t fine, trolling narrative-wise give the same grace to Lebron when Bosh and Wade were clearly hobbled in 2013 and 2014, respectively.

[tpols]

He was fine. And if he wasn’t fine, trolling narrative-wise give the same grace to Lebron when Bosh and Wade were clearly hobbled in 2013 and 2014, respectively.

He obviously wasn't fine if it was the only time he had to sit out a bunch of playoff games for the only time in his entire career.

Wade played every playoff game in Miamis 4 years together. So that doesn't add up at all. Nagging injuries =/= acute injuries.

I'll give you Bosh in 2012 but a 3rd option missing time due to bad injury isn't the same as 1st option MVP being hurt.

[3ba11]

.
Regular Season

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'..... 17.7 PER.. 2.9 bpm.. 0.153 ws/48.. 42.1 vorp on 33,964 min.. 15/3/5 on 58.2 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html)............. 16.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.110 ws/48.. 14.4 vorp on 20,380 min.. 19/3/2 on 57.5 ts


Playoffs

Hornacek (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hornaje01.html)'...... 16.5 PER.. 3.1 bpm.. 0.145 ws/48.. 14.1 vorp on 4766 min.. 15/4/4 on 57.5 ts
Klay (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thompkl01.html).............. 14.4 PER.. 0.7 bpm.. 0.091 ws/48.... 3.1 vorp on 4570 min.. 19/3/2 on 56.0 ts




So we are comparing Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Devin Harris to Klay, Draymond, Bogut, & Iggy now.


Klay is a garbage and overrated player as the numbers above show quite clearly - he was nowhere near Hornacek, let alone prime Josh Howard or Jason Terry.

Both Terry and Howard compare well to Klay.. Howard was bigger, faster, stronger than Klay, while being and an all-star and 18th for DPOY in 2007 - this easily destroys 1st time all-star Klay in 15/16... And again, Klay is a very low-producer - he's quite trash and there's no way that Luka or Lebron could win with him - only a great brand of ball and a goat scorer can win with Klay, which means Curry.

[ShawkFactory]

He obviously wasn't fine if it was the only time he had to sit out a bunch of playoff games for the only time in his entire career.

Wade played every playoff game in Miamis 4 years together. So that doesn't add up at all. Nagging injuries =/= acute injuries.

I'll give you Bosh in 2012 but a 3rd option missing time due to bad injury isn't the same as 1st option MVP being hurt.

Okay sure. Although Bosh and Wade were both not themselves at all by 2014.

But can we at least agree (and we’ll keep this going and never agree on anything again)…that Mo Williams and Delonte West weren’t the same help as any team that’s ever won a championship? If you give me that I’ll back you up on some other shit later.

I’m low key a huge Kobe fan believe it or not. I got you.

[3ba11]

.
COMPARING SIDEKICK HELP WHILE TRYING TO 3-PEAT



Playoffs

14' Wade'....... 18.5 PER.. 0.086 ws/48.. 28.6 pts per 100.. 56.0 ts.. 106 ortg
93' Pippen...... 16.9 PER.. 0.083 ws/48.. 26.2 pts per 100.. 50.0 ts.. 102 ortg






Okay sure.

Although Bosh and Wade were both not themselves at all by 2014.





It never made sense that Lebron should need 2 franchise players in their prime that were plucked from other teams

So who cares if Wade started to decline like 93' Pippen or 2nd three-peat Pippen - it's Lebron's job to still win with that crap by averaging 41 instead of 28, and then he wouldn't lose by 13 ppg in the 14' Finals (record amount)... It's math... :hammerhead:..

Or maybe try being a better assist target (off-ball), which allows teammates more capacity for elite performance by not reducing them to spot-up role.






But can we at least agree (and we’ll keep this going and never agree on anything again)…that Mo Williams and Delonte West weren’t the same help as any team that’s ever won a championship?





The Cavs had the #4 defense in 2007, which was long before Lebron became all-defense, so the Cavs had great defensive help for Lebron... The 07-10' Cavs had better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls and more scoring options.. From 2005-2010, they ran a modern-style pick-n-pop with Big Z as their go-to play, which gave them a strategic advantage at the time, but this was still their 4th option behind Lebron, Mo and Jamison.. That's far more scoring help than Jordan ever had, plus better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

33-year Ben Wallace was similar to 34-year Rodman joining the Bulls.. Zydrunas, Wallace, Shaq and Varejao (all-defense) gave the Cavs great rebounding and defenses, while Jamison, Mo and Zydrunas provided scoring help and all-star experience.. Many guys have won with less than this, such as Jokic, Dirk and MJ, to name a few.

This issue is that Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve required to win with organic rosters of 1 franchise player and opted for better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team), aka talent-based winning.. Since he never learned championship chemistry, he always needs more talent (more help).

[ShawkFactory]

You’re the Daniel Day-Lewis of ISH. I don’t think you’ve ever broken character. Respect.

[3ba11]

You’re the Daniel Day-Lewis of ISH. I don’t think you’ve ever broken character. Respect.


I post stats and facts that you cannot refute, so you deflect.. There's no character to break for you or me - it's who we are - a fact-poster and a deflector, respectively

You posted BS, such as citing Delonte as one of the best players on the Cavs when he was maybe the 7th-best player behind Jamison, Zydrunas or Varejao and others.. I call you out on this obvious nonsense, and you deflect

Never change

[3ba11]

.

Mo Williams....... 1x all-star
Jamison............ 2x all-star
Zydrunas'.......... 2x all-star

Cavs................. #4 defense
Cavs' coach........ likely HOF


Meanwhile, Jokic won with no all-stars and bad team defense... :confusedshrug:

And Lebron lost with Jamison, Zydrunas, and Mo, while Dirk won with Terry.

And the Cavs had the #4 defense in 07' before Lebron was all-defense, so they had great defensive help... Jordan won with worse team defenses and less scoring help - he never had a 3rd scorer like Jamison/Mo, or a 4th scorer/player like Zydrunas, while the 1st three-peat Bulls had worse defensive ranking.

[ShawkFactory]

I post stats and facts that you cannot refute, so you deflect.. There's no character to break for you or me - it's who we are - a fact-poster and a deflector, respectively

You posted BS, such as citing Delonte as one of the best players on the Cavs when he was maybe the 7th-best player behind Jamison, Zydrunas or Varejao and others.. I call you out on this obvious nonsense, and you deflect

Never change

I mean he was the 3rd leading scorer so…

[dankok8]

First three ok.. but 2016 Warriors is not right. Dray and Klay are clearly better than any players on the first three teams minus Giannis/Dirk/Lebron.

[3ba11]

I mean he was the 3rd leading scorer so…


Delonte was 4th in scoring for 2009, and 6th in 2010

So you're wrong

Plenty of guys won with long-standing organic juggernauts like what Lebron had in 09' and 10'... Lebron had better defenses and more scoring options than Jokic, Dirk or MJ when they won their first rings..

It's interesting because Lebron had Delonte, Jamison, Mo and Zydrunas, who were all better scorers than Jordan's 3rd option.. Jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen at 3rd option like Jamison was in 2010.. (and better team defense).

[ShawkFactory]

Ahhh shit so he was the Delonte West was the 4th leading scorer not the 3rd. What a huge fvck up on my part and I sincerely apologize.

[RRR3]

Ahhh shit so he was the Delonte West was the 4th leading scorer not the 3rd. What a huge fvck up on my part and I sincerely apologize.
If only he held himself to the same standard he's holding you to, because he messes up stats constantly.

[3ba11]

Ahhh shit so he was the Delonte West was the 4th leading scorer not the 3rd. What a huge fvck up on my part and I sincerely apologize.


4th and 6th, so Lebron had a better roster than Jokic, Dirk or Jordan's first title rosters

Dirk won with Terry a no team defense, while Lebron lost with great team defense and 3 guys that were better than Terry (Mo, Jamison, Zydrunas).

Jokic won with Murray - never an all-star... So Lebron has no excuse for losing with all-stars like Mo or Jamison

[tpols]

First three ok.. but 2016 Warriors is not right. Dray and Klay are clearly better than any players on the first three teams minus Giannis/Dirk/Lebron.

Eh... I don't know about that.

Middleton, Jrue, and Lopez are definitely comparable to Klay and Dray. Middleton is honestly better than Klay and Jrue is a proven super defender and champion across multiple teams. He just got done this year shooting better from 3 than Steph Curry as well which is absurd. Klay was bricks in The Finals.

Jason Terry was also waaay better than Klay on the biggest stage and the combined defense of Kidd, Marion, and Tyson Chandler was just as impactful if not more as Dray and their trash backup center rotation after Bogut went down.

Lebrons 09 team wasn't quite as good because Mo Williams choked in the playoffs.

[ShawkFactory]

4th and 6th, so Lebron had a better roster than Jokic, Dirk or Jordan's first title rosters

Dirk won with Terry a no team defense, while Lebron lost with great team defense and 3 guys that were better than Terry (Mo, Jamison, Zydrunas).

Jokic won with Murray - never an all-star... So Lebron has no excuse for losing with all-stars like Mo or Jamison

Lol I love how Delonte West being the 4th leading scoring on the means by proxy that the cast was better than the 91 Bulls.

[beasted]

Ahhh shit so he was the Delonte West was the 4th leading scorer not the 3rd. What a huge fvck up on my part and I sincerely apologize.

Was John Paxson any better/worse than Delonte West? Because that's who Jordan's 4th scorer was.

[ShawkFactory]

Was John Paxson any better/worse than Delonte West? Because that's who Jordan's 4th scorer was.

West was probably better overall.

[tpols]

If you fellas do look at Lebrons 2008 Cleveland team, they took the 2008 all time stacked Celtics to 7 with LBJ playing like dogshit.

And then they bolstered the team the next year and we're a 66 win team. They weren't stacked or anything, but Lebrons help in 2008 carried him further than Kobes help in 2008 and that was with Kobe having a better performance and on paper roster.

Same thing with 2007. Lebron was abysmal vs San Antonio... worst series of his career... and Cleveland was in every single game. They were losing by a couple points everytime with Lebron shooting 35% from the floor and like 20% on jumpshots.

So his help couldn't have been bad to carry him to near wins whilst he played like total ass. They were one of the best defensive and rebounding supporting casts in the NBA similar to Rose and the 2011 Bulls. Rose would shit the bed in the playoffs but Chicago's defense and rebounding saved them.

[ShawkFactory]

I mean obviously the 08 and 09 Cavs weren’t a BAD supporting cast. Nothing like the Tmac Magic or 06/07 Lakers. But in the grand scheme of things if they’d won a championship it would have been one of weakest supporting casts ever on that level.

[dankok8]

Eh... I don't know about that.

Middleton, Jrue, and Lopez are definitely comparable to Klay and Dray. Middleton is honestly better than Klay and Jrue is a proven super defender and champion across multiple teams. He just got done this year shooting better from 3 than Steph Curry as well which is absurd. Klay was bricks in The Finals.

Jason Terry was also waaay better than Klay on the biggest stage and the combined defense of Kidd, Marion, and Tyson Chandler was just as impactful if not more as Dray and their trash backup center rotation after Bogut went down.

Lebrons 09 team wasn't quite as good because Mo Williams choked in the playoffs.

Jrue didn't play on the 2019 Bucks. Lopez was a role player by the time he got to the Bucks and couldn't touch Draymond in impact. And Middleton vs. Klay still goes to Klay because of defense but at least that one is close.

[dankok8]

I mean obviously the 08 and 09 Cavs weren’t a BAD supporting cast. Nothing like the Tmac Magic or 06/07 Lakers. But in the grand scheme of things if they’d won a championship it would have been one of weakest supporting casts ever on that level.

This is a very good assessment. They were a competent cast but lacking for a title winner. For these kind of role player casts to win, stars really have to align like 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs which doesn't happen often.

[sdot_thadon]

This is a very good assessment. They were a competent cast but lacking for a title winner. For these kind of role player casts to win, stars really have to align like 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs which doesn't happen often.

Those teams had role player help probably at least a tier better than those Cavs teams. Lebron used to be pretty great at putting lipstick on pigs. They weren't lottery bad but they were definitely elevated. Just look at how much longer most of them could even hold roster spots once they were no longer his teammates. And the 1994 Rockets had some of the most clutch role players ever assembled on a roster, I hate that they always get completely disregarded when we bring up that team. The mavs also had a good collection of vets and former allstars, the Spurs to a lesser degree.

[3ba11]

I mean obviously the 08 and 09 Cavs weren’t a BAD supporting cast. Nothing like the Tmac Magic or 06/07 Lakers. But in the grand scheme of things if they’d won a championship it would have been one of weakest supporting casts ever on that level.



I just figured out where your misperception lies - you seem to think that if Lebron won the title in 2009 or 2010, it would be viewed as a 1-man ring.



https://media.tenor.com/AQz3_zaiD14AAAAM/hysterical-laughter.gif



No one ever won a 1-man ring because the cast is ALWAYS EXALTED upon victory... Guys with all-star experience like Jamison, Mo, or Zydrunas would jump dozens and dozens of spots in the all-time rankings and no one would talk about them as "bums" like they do now... The fact that Jamison is a rare 20k scorer and outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs would be exalted and given the praise worthy of a champion.. All of the cast's achievements would be glorified in this way.

Remember when you were drooling over Aaron Gordon after they beat the Lakers, but then not a peep after he choked against the T'Wolves?... I bring this up because it shows how the winning spotlight inflates players, and Lebron never gave his original Cleveland casts this inflation because he couldn't win with them.. But believe me - if Lebron beat the Magic in 09' as expected and then beat Kobe - every member of that cast would be drooled over by the media and elevated to heights never seen... Again, your misperception is that it would be viewed as a 1-man show, but no ring has ever been viewed this way, even if you average 40 ppg.

[ShawkFactory]

This is a very good assessment. They were a competent cast but lacking for a title winner. For these kind of role player casts to win, stars really have to align like 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs which doesn't happen often.

Yea agreed. For those rare role player titles teams have needed to peak at the right time and then either get lucky with some opposing injuries, poor play, or missing the worst matchup.

[3ba11]

This is a very good assessment. They were a competent cast but lacking for a title winner. For these kind of role player casts to win, stars really have to align like 1994 Rockets, 2003 Spurs, 2011 Mavs which doesn't happen often.


Isn't it funny how Shawk didn't see how you got him to agree to one of your examples, which was the very year that Lebron left Cleveland, aka the opportunity was there in 2011 for a 1-star organic chip, but Dirk grabbed it instead of Lebron.. You literally got Shawk to agree that Lebron should've stayed in Cleveland to win in 2011.... Those Cavs certainly would've had the long-standing organic chemistry and reputed team defense to completely destroy those mavs.. those are the 2 things the Heat lacked (chemistry & defense, which go hand-in-hand)

I'm going to be honest with you - what you have done here is remarkable and post of the year imo - you got a die-hard, snobby Lebron fan to agree that he should not have left Cleveland... It's f'ing amazing.. kudos

[ShawkFactory]

Isn't it funny how Shawk didn't see how you got him to agree to one of your examples, which was the very year that Lebron left Cleveland, aka the opportunity was there in 2011 for a 1-star organic chip, but Dirk grabbed it instead of Lebron.. You literally got Shawk to agree that Lebron should've stayed in Cleveland to win in 2011.... Those Cavs certainly would've had the long-standing organic chemistry and reputed team defense to completely destroy those mavs.. those are the 2 things the Heat lacked (chemistry & defense, which go hand-in-hand)

I'm going to be honest with you - what you have done here is remarkable and post of the year imo - you got a die-hard, snobby Lebron fan to agree that he should not have left Cleveland... It's f'ing amazing.. kudos

This is one of the weirdest posts I’ve ever seen :lol

[3ba11]

This is one of the weirdest posts I’ve ever seen :lol


I'll simplify it for you

Lebron < Hakeem, Dirk, MJ, Curry and Jokic because he couldn't win as a 1-man team like they did

If he won 6 with Mo Williams and Jamison, they would be top 30 all-time

Jamison is a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs, so it's pretty nice to have a better scorer than Pippen as your 3rd option and better defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. And several "Horace Grant's" like Zydrunas, Shaq or Varejao.. So Lebron failed to win with a cast that was better than the 1st three-peat Bulls on both sides of the ball and much deeper.. See, that's just meat and potatoes, nothing weird

[1987_Lakers]

If he won 6 with Mo Williams and Jamison, they would be top 30 all-time

Holy shit. :roll:

[3ba11]

.

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html)........ 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense

05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)............... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html).............. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'........... 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5




Holy shit. :roll:


Jordan took 1990 Pippen and won 6 titles with him, while Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them into anything and didn't win anything with them (Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo, Jamison).

And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'...

By 2010, Lebron had a Year 7 organic juggernaut with top-ranked defenses, 3 "horace grants" (Zydrunas, Varejao, Shaq), and 3 scorers with all-star experience (Lebron, Jamison, Mo) - this is more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls

[dankok8]

If any player won 6 rings with his first Cleveland stint cast, that would be consensus GOAT worthy. Winning a ring vs. winning six of them is not the same conversation. No player ever won more than one ring with a cast of just role players.

[3ba11]

If any player won 6 rings with his first Cleveland stint cast, that would be consensus GOAT worthy. Winning a ring vs. winning six of them is not the same conversation. No player ever won more than one ring with a cast of just role players.


Jordan would've won many rings with Lebron's cleveland teams because it's a documented fact that they had more defensive help and rankings, while also having more scoring help.. This is an obvious statistical fact.

winning 6 with Mo would turn Mo into an all-timer - no one would say that Lebron did it by himself or won any of the rings by himself because they would say "Lebron had all-stars like Mo, Jamison and Zydrunas", just like they say Jordan had Pippen.. The only reason this doesn't happen (the only reason they don't laud Lebron's teammates like they do Jordan's) is because Lebron couldn't win as a -700 favorite with 18 on 38% from Mo, while Jordan won many titles with exactly that from Pippen all the time (and worse team defenses).

if jordan just won 1 with pippen, then pippen's 19 on 42% would be considered a role player - it's the 6 chips that turns pippen's weak production into all-time level and media accolade.. Similar to many low-producing sidekicks like klay, dumars, parker, and pau, pippen didn't start making all-nba until he won titles first.. So they were all inflated by the winning spotlight and wouldn't be considered all-time if they were losing on the Wizards or something.

[3ba11]

.

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html)........ 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense

05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)............... 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html).............. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'........... 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5




If any player won 6 rings with his first Cleveland stint cast, that would be consensus GOAT worthy. Winning a ring vs. winning six of them is not the same conversation. No player ever won more than one ring with a cast of just role players.


Jordan took 1990 Pippen and won 6 titles with him, while Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them into anything and didn't win anything with them (Zydrunas, Hughes, Mo, Jamison).

And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'...

By 2010, Lebron had a Year 7 organic juggernaut with top-ranked defenses, 3 "horace grants" (Zydrunas, Varejao, Shaq), and 3 scorers with all-star experience (Lebron, Jamison, Mo) - this is more help on both sides of the ball than the 1st three-peat Bulls







No player ever won more than one ring with a cast of just role players.





Mo was an all-star - not a role player - he averaged 18 on 38% against the Orlando Magic, just like Pippen

Jamison was a 2x all-star and rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' 1st Round... not a role player.. He was a better scorer than Pippen but played 3rd option for Lebron.

The actual role players that Lebron had were superior, such as Zydrunas being better than Horace, while Varejao and old Shaq were about the same as Horace... Delonte, Hughes or Snow were rich man's versions of BJ or Paxson - Lebron's teams from 2006-2010 had more scoring help and better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat bulls.

[3ba11]

Bosh and Wade were both not themselves at all by 2014.

can we agree that Mo Williams and Delonte West weren’t the same help as any team that’s ever won a championship?






From 2005-2010, they ran a modern-style pick-n-pop with Big Z as their go-to play, which gave them a strategic advantage at the time, but this was still their 4th option behind Lebron, Mo, Jamison and Hughes.. That's far more scoring help than Jordan ever had, plus better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls.. The Cavs had the #4 defense in 2007, which was long before Lebron became all-defense.

So the Cavs had great defensive help for Lebron, such as an all-defensive backcourt (Snow, Hughes), while 33-year Ben Wallace was similar to 34-year Rodman joining the Bulls.. Zydrunas, Wallace, Shaq and Varejao (all-defense) gave the Cavs great rebounding and defenses, while Jamison, Mo and Zydrunas provided all-star scoring experience.. Many guys have won with less than this, such as Jokic, Dirk and MJ, to name a few.

This issue is that Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve required to win with organic rosters of 1 franchise player and opted for better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team), aka talent-based winning.. Since he never learned championship chemistry, he always needs more talent (more help).