Even Lebron detractors rarely ever mention his HORRIFIC 2008 ECSF (36% fg, 5TO)

[Akhenaten]

The Cavs pushed the 07-08 ECSF to 7 games vs the KG/RAY/PIERCE Celtics despite Lebron avg 36% FG and 5 turnovers per game.

They lost Game 1 by only 4 points (lebron missed an open layup to tie) despite Lebron going 2-18 with 10 turnovers :biggums: NASTY.

In the games that the Cavs did win (gm 3, 4 and 6), Lebron still only shot 36%.


The only thing you heard about this series was Lebron and Paul Pierce's epic showdown in Game 7. Lebron losing despite an heroic 45 point game performance.

Also the Lebron carried bums narrative, those were the two media driven narratives from that series.


Meanwhile it was the worst series by a superstar player that I can recall, Ewing in the '94 Finals comes to mind also.

It was after this series I realized what was going on. This was about Nike, from the jersey number, king james moniker, Chosen 1 tattoo etc. It was preordained for this guy to be the GOAT and Nike in collusion with the league and media would ensure this happened.

He had the talent but lacked a dynamic enough skilset and resolve to challenge for that GOAT title, these people are so arrogant though that they believe they can dictate reality.

And to a degree they've been largely successful, dude even being in the conversation (he shouldn't be) is a testament to
Nike's immense power and reach.

[tpols]

I mentioned this ìn the other thread.

Everybody acts like those original Cleveland teams were trash but they kept Lebron in it when he had two of the worst playoff series for a superstar player ever in 2007 and 2008.

[dankok8]

Cleveland had elite playoff defenses in 2007 (-8.2 rDRtg) and 2008 (-7.6 rDRtg) so they could overcome the offense including Lebron struggling.

[sdot_thadon]

Boston was playing cutting edge defense at the time geared to stop one man they didn't give any effs about the rest of the guys out there. Thibs was still running the show there defensively. The highest scorer on the Cavs besides Lebron was Z at 11.9 on 43% and would be the most efficient of 3 other players in double figures. They held Kobe to 40% in the finals but his help scored a bit better and more efficiently. Boston defense in the 08 run was just tough.

[Akhenaten]

I mentioned this n the other thread.

Everybody acts like those original Cleveland teams were trash but they kept Lebron in it when he had two of the worst playoff series for a superstar player ever in 2007 and 2008.

You know it's weird, even though it's reviling how far the powers that be have went to shape the public perception I'm very tempted to give him a pass for 07.

At 22, most players would be in their second or third season. It's his first finals against a dynastic Spurs team with a GOAT defensive player and team.

His jumper at that point was VERY shaky, then you factor in potential nerves. I can give him a pass for that one.

Still though 36% shooting, 6 turnovers is horrific. Speaking of the not having help thing, I remember Boobie Gibson's 31 pt Gm 7 to carry the Cavs to the Finals.

Lebron shot 3-11 in that game only scoring 20 points

Again the only thing that's ever talked about from that series in Lebron's game 6 performance. I knew something was fishy then but '08 sealed it for me.

Then when he had a horrendous games 4-6 vs Boston in 2010; 6 turnovers per game, 34%FG and IMO visibly gave up in Game 6 DEAD IN HIS PRIME (B2B MVP) the GOAT debate was over for me.

Then when he announces joining Bosh and Wade in the off-season I said to myself this guy doesn't want to compete, he literally stacked his team to where winning was guaranteed.

Then the 11 Finals happens, that's when he was permanently behind the Hakeems, Kobe and Duncans of the world for me. He obviously had once in a lifetime talent and genetics but on an all-time list I cannot in good conscience put him ahead of those guys knowing his history.

As I think on it I might not have him in my top ten all-time

[tpols]

You know it's weird, even though it's reviling how far the powers that be have went to shape the public perception I'm very tempted to give him a pass for 07.

At 22, most players would be in their second or third season. It's his first finals against a dynastic Spurs team with a GOAT defensive player and team.

His jumper at that point was VERY shaky, then you factor in potential nerves. I can give him a pass for that one.

Still though 36% shooting, 6 turnovers is horrific. Speaking of the not having help thing, I remember Boobie Gibson's 31 pt Gm 7 to carry the Cavs to the Finals.

Lebron shot 3-11 in that game only scoring 20 points

Again the only thing that's ever talked about from that series in Lebron's game 6 performance. I knew something was fishy then but '08 sealed it for me.

Then when he had a horrendous games 4-6 vs Boston in 2010; 6 turnovers per game, 34%FG and IMO visibly gave up in Game 6 DEAD IN HIS PRIME (B2B MVP) the GOAT debate was over for me.

Then when he announces joining Bosh and Wade in the off-season I said to myself this guy doesn't want to compete, he literally stacked his team to where winning was guaranteed.

Then the 11 Finals happens, that's when he was permanently behind the Hakeems, Kobe and Duncans of the world for me. He obviously had once in a lifetime talent and genetics but on an all-time list I cannot in good conscience put him ahead of those guys knowing his history.

As I think on it I might not have him in my top ten all-time


The best case Lebron has is his insane longevity. And his jumper got much better with age. So he's still a GOAT but yea... everybody tends to overlook how bad he was early prime in some of those playoff series at a level no true No.1 GOAT ever could be.

[gengiskhan]

The best case Lebron has is his insane longevity. And his jumper got much better with age. So he's still a GOAT but yea... everybody tends to overlook how bad he was early prime in some of those playoff series at a level no true No.1 GOAT ever could be.

That LeLongevity argument will be gutter trashed once......

around 2027, a year before 2028 LA Summer Olympics.......

the PEDs, EPO, Steroids scandal to hit the NBA soon......

Its coming. As soon as LBJ retires. They are all waiting.

All that Biogenetics, Balco all that is coming back and coming back hard!

just wait til 2027.

[ShawkFactory]

You know it's weird, even though it's reviling how far the powers that be have went to shape the public perception I'm very tempted to give him a pass for 07.

At 22, most players would be in their second or third season. It's his first finals against a dynastic Spurs team with a GOAT defensive player and team.

His jumper at that point was VERY shaky, then you factor in potential nerves. I can give him a pass for that one.

Still though 36% shooting, 6 turnovers is horrific. Speaking of the not having help thing, I remember Boobie Gibson's 31 pt Gm 7 to carry the Cavs to the Finals.

Lebron shot 3-11 in that game only scoring 20 points

Again the only thing that's ever talked about from that series in Lebron's game 6 performance. I knew something was fishy then but '08 sealed it for me.

Then when he had a horrendous games 4-6 vs Boston in 2010; 6 turnovers per game, 34%FG and IMO visibly gave up in Game 6 DEAD IN HIS PRIME (B2B MVP) the GOAT debate was over for me.

Then when he announces joining Bosh and Wade in the off-season I said to myself this guy doesn't want to compete, he literally stacked his team to where winning was guaranteed.

Then the 11 Finals happens, that's when he was permanently behind the Hakeems, Kobe and Duncans of the world for me. He obviously had once in a lifetime talent and genetics but on an all-time list I cannot in good conscience put him ahead of those guys knowing his history.

As I think on it I might not have him in my top ten all-time

I actually watched that Pistons/Cavs game 6 game recently. Lebron only took 11 shots but the Pistons were absolutely blitzing him after that game 5 performance and he did a lot of things well. Particularly in that 4th when Boobie went off, I think Lebron assisted on 4 of his 5 threes off of just blatant doubles. There were going to make anyone else beat them and to Gibsons credit, he made a lot of shots.

Bron was also a monster defensively in that game. You could tell he was the best athlete on the court and he wreaked havoc in a lot of areas.

[Akhenaten]

I actually watched that Pistons/Cavs game 6 game recently. Lebron only took 11 shots but the Pistons were absolutely blitzing him after that game 5 performance and he did a lot of things well. Particularly in that 4th when Boobie went off, I think Lebron assisted on 4 of his 5 threes off of just blatant doubles. There were going to make anyone else beat them and to Gibsons credit, he made a lot of shots.

Bron was also a monster defensively in that game. You could tell he was the best athlete on the court and he wreaked havoc in a lot of areas.

Well he's a tremendous player and athlete so he's going to impact whatever game he plays in and Cleveland wouldn't have had ABY chance without him.

This within the context of being the GOAT or an all-time great though, and it's just too many abysmal playoff performances for him to be top 5.

His success came with obscenely stacking the deck, all I'm saying is I can't put him in front of certain guys not that he's not great.

He's still top ten all-time for me, personally he's at number 10 (and that's excluding all pre merger greats (so no Wilt, Oscar, Jerry, Bill etc).

[3ba11]

I actually watched that Pistons/Cavs game 6 game recently.






Game 6 of 2007 ECF

BOOBIE...... 31 points.... 7-9.... 12-15 FT's
LEBRON'..... 20 points... 3-11... 14-19 FT's


So Lebron was completely carried by a sidekick that shot 15 FTA's and was ballin' out of control..

Lebron was bailed out by Boobie, Ray Allen, Kyrie and AD (vs Joker).

aka completely carried compared to MJ, and yet Lebron mostly lost with every cast and had a fraction of the rings or ring frequency of MJ






Bron was also a monster defensively in that game.





Nonsense.. The Cavs had an all-defensive backcourt with Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, while also having a great defensive frontcourt with Zydrunas, Varejao, and then added Ben Wallace in 08' - this defensive help is why the Cavs had a top 5 defense in 07' even though Lebron wasn't viewed as a good defender - he didn't make all-defense until 09'.

[ShawkFactory]

Game 6 of 2007 ECF

BOOBIE...... 31 points.... 7-9.... 12-15 FT's
LEBRON'..... 20 points... 3-11... 14-19 FT's


So Lebron was completely carried by a sidekick that shot 15 FTA's and was ballin' out of control..

Lebron was bailed out by Boobie, Ray Allen, Kyrie and AD (vs Joker).

aka completely carried compared to MJ, and yet Lebron mostly lost with every cast and had a fraction of the rings or ring frequency of MJ






Nonsense.. The Cavs had an all-defensive backcourt with Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, while also having a great defensive frontcourt with Zydrunas, Varejao, and then added Ben Wallace in 08' - this defensive help is why the Cavs had a top 5 defense in 07' even though Lebron wasn't viewed as a good defender - he didn't make all-defense until 09'.

Yea? You also just watch the game?

[3ba11]

Yea? You also just watch the game?


Lebron was a bad defender at the time.. Who cares if he looked like the most athletic player - what kind of comment is that?.. Of course he's the best athlete, but he wasn't a good defender and everyone knew that.

Fortunately, his team had an all-defensive backcourt with Eric Snow and Larry Hughes, while also having a great defensive frontcourt with Zydrunas, Varejao, and then added Ben Wallace in 08' - this defensive help is why the Cavs had a top 5 defense in 07' even though Lebron wasn't viewed as a good defender - he didn't make all-defense until 09'.

[ShawkFactory]

The game tape says differently. Seriously, all these games are on YouTube. You can’t just make shit up anymore.

[Akhenaten]

Game 6 of 2007 ECF

Lebron was bailed out by Boobie, Ray Allen, Kyrie and AD (vs Joker).

aka completely carried compared to MJ

Gotta keep it a buck, Scottie absolutely saved MJ in the 93 ECF. Down 0-2 in the series, MJ goes 3-18, 20 points, Scottie came through with 29 on 10-12. If not for Pip they lose that game 3 to go down 3-0, series over no 3-peat.

MJ is my hands down GOAT btw but nobody's perfect, you needed competent teammates who can pick you up when you're struggling to win at the highest level.

My thing is Lebron just has too many such games and series to be top 5 in my eyes.

[3ba11]

.
A few of Lebron's bad series:



2007 Finals - 22 on 35.6%

2008 ECSF - 26 on 35.5%

2015 ECSF - 26 on 39.9%

2007 ECSF - 25 on 42.3%

2013 ECSF - 24 on 43.8%

2010 ECSF - 27 on 45% (21 on 34% for last 3 games to lose as -500 favorite)

2011 Finals - 18 on 47.8%

2014 ECF - 23 on 56%

2021 1st Rd - 23 on 38%

2016 1st Rd - 23 on 49%

[gengiskhan]

Gotta keep it a buck, [/b]Scottie absolutely saved MJ in the 93 ECF.[/b] Down 0-2 in the series, MJ goes 3-18, 20 points, Scottie came through with 29 on 10-12.

MJ is my hands down GOAT btw but nobody's perfect, you needed competent teammates who can pick you up when you're struggling to win at the highest level.

My thing is Lebron just has too many such games and series to be top 5 in my eyes.

Get this thru your head.....

Pippen NEVER saved MJ......ever!. Pippen only RODE MJ to the moon.

Do You Even Know what Happen in 1993 NYK-Bulls Game 2 at MSG?

1993 Bulls were out-matched, out-classed, out-hussled.

Here is Pippen getting EJECTED as usual in most important game after Bulls down 0-1 on road despite MJ giving him tongue lashing as usual to "keep his composure"

Watch what Pippen does!. throws the ball at ref. Gets ejected. Leaves MJ alone on the court. Bulls go down 0-2. comprehensively beaten.

Watch from 7:05.......Notice how mad MJ is......Pippen had this "immaturity" problem throughout his career!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o8MUBHUJ3I

You are so casual to point out MJs shooting problem, bad performance of Game 3.

You totally forgot it was Pippen's Game 2 EJECTION that led to 0-2 series trailing.

All Pippen had to do was play ball, MJ could've erupted in 4th Quarter, Game 2 at MSG leveling series 1-1 going back home!

[RRR3]

Gotta keep it a buck, Scottie absolutely saved MJ in the 93 ECF. Down 0-2 in the series, MJ goes 3-18, 20 points, Scottie came through with 29 on 10-12.

MJ is my hands down GOAT btw but nobody's perfect, you needed competent teammates who can pick you up when you're struggling to win at the highest level.

My thing is Lebron just has too many such games and series to be top 5 in my eyes.
The thing is I guarantee someone else in your top 5 has more, you just hate LeBron.

[3ba11]

The thing is I guarantee someone else in your top 5 has more, you just hate LeBron.


Jordan never had a game like that where a teammate outproduced or "saved" him in the contested part of the game, such as a tight 4th quarter, or even a contested 1st quarter in an eventual blowout - that never happened for Jordan, but it happened to lebron all the time.

carry on

[3ba11]

Gotta keep it a buck





you didn't watch the game

that's keeping it a buck..

and your take was lifted from Nick Wright or possibly Cowherd, since they're the only loons that shill this particular misinformation







Scottie absolutely saved MJ in the 93 ECF. Down 0-2 in the series, MJ goes 3-18, 20 points, Scottie came through with 29 on 10-12.





There's a reason why it was never reported this way for 30 years until Klutch Media started spreading this lie in the last few years - the fact that you're spreading the Klutch lie instead of the actual reporting of the last 30 years confirms that you never watched the game or the series.

Otoh, I did watch the series... Game 3 was only contested in the 1st quarter - MJ made sure to end it early by getting 8 points and 6 assists, compared to 6 and 0 for Pippen... The Bulls were up 15-20 points early in the 2nd quarter and never looked back, so MJ dominated when the game was contested (1st quarter), while Pippen was MIA as usual.. it was never close after the 1st quarter and the lead remained at 20 for the entire game..

You have to understand that most people who watched the Bulls also watched the dynasties of the Lakers and Celtics... The Bulls had already won back-to-back titles and were considered bigger and better than those dynasties.. In other words, no one cared that the Bulls were down 0-2 and no one thought the Knicks would go up 3-0 in Chicago Stadium... Everyone knew heading into Game 3 (including the Knicks) that the Knicks would give a quick effort to see if they can get something going, and then pack it in to save energy for a long series and games back at home.. And that's what happened.

The team rallied around Jordan in Game 3, as the intro to Game 4 states here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzuMJ0hlMS4&t=50s).. It was never reported as a "pippen save" because it wasn't... it was an expected blowout where MJ dominated the only contested portion, whereas Boobie hit every big shot down the stretch to seal a tight game and series for Lebron..

[Akhenaten]

That's crazy Lebron fan says I hate MJ, MJ fan says I'm a Klutch Sports shill lol

Y'all be too fanned out about these people

[gengiskhan]

That's crazy Lebron fan says I hate MJ, MJ fan says I'm a Klutch Sports shill lol

Y'all be too fanned out about these people

But you did try to pull a quick one..........................

Reason you lied with 20 pts Game 3 instead of MJs 22-8-11-2-2 in a blow out.

Even in a poor shooting night, MJ nearly had a 20+pts triple double.

kids like you know so little about bball.

Yes. Pippen had a great FG% shooting game.

But you also forgot, Pippen is a primary Ball handler and bulls Playmaker with ball in his hand atleast 10 secs out of 24 secs.

How did poor performanced MJ still ended up with 11 assists as a catch and shoot, off the ball player?

Pippen never really saved any series in all honesty.

Any Pippen good performace in series "stands out" so vividly because his performance "ceiling" was always too average!

[Akhenaten]

But you did try to pull a quick one..........................

Reason you lied with 20 pts Game 3 instead of MJs 22-8-11-2-2 in a blow out.

Even in a poor shooting night, MJ nearly had a 20+pts triple double.

kids like you know so little about bball.

Yes. Pippen had a great FG% shooting game.

But you also forgot, Pippen is a primary Ball handler and bulls Playmaker with ball in his hand atleast 10 secs out of 24 secs.

How did poor performanced MJ still ended up with 11 assists as a catch and shoot, off the ball player?

Pippen never really saved any series in all honesty.

Any Pippen good performace in series "stands out" so vividly because his performance "ceiling" was always too average!

Truth be told Pippen had a better gm 3, 5 and 6 to me, from my recollection and the boxcore. I haven't watched them games in years but I distinctly remember Jordan really struggling in that series and Pippen playing REALLY well.

J did get to the ft line and was setting guys up really well, he's getting a lionshare of the defensive attention that goes without saying, but still...

Looking at the gm 6 box for example, they had virtually identical lines with Pip being much more efficient. Pip hit the game sealing 3 in this game also, similar to game 5 when he had that huge 3pt point play to put the Bulls up 7 with less than 2 minutes left.

Put it this way, if ECF mvp existed back then I wouldn't feel it'd be an outrage if Pip won.

[3ba11]

Truth be told Pippen had a better gm 3, 5 and 6 to me, from my recollection and the boxcore. I haven't watched them games in years but I distinctly remember Jordan really struggling in that series and Pippen playing REALLY well.

J did get to the ft line and was setting guys up really well, he's getting a lionshare of the defensive attention that goes without saying, but still...

Looking at the gm 6 box for example, they had virtually identical lines with Pip being much more efficient. Pip hit the game sealing 3 in this game also, similar to game 5 when he had that huge 3pt point play to put the Bulls up 7 with less than 2 minutes left.

Put it this way, if ECF mvp existed back then I wouldn't feel it'd be an outrage if Pip won.


Aside from the 91' Playoff run and 1 or 2 other series, Pippen played badly in every series alongside Jordan, including the 93' ECF:



93' ECF

Jordan......... 32.2... 6.2... 7.0... 2.3 tov... 52.2 ts... 24.4 gmsc
Pippen......... 22.5... 6.7... 4.0... 4.0 tov... 57.3 ts... 15.7 gmsc


^^^ this is considered a sidekick getting "carried" by any standard, except Klutch shills like OP claim that 22 ppg and a 1-to-1 assist to turnover ratio is all-time level... obvious lies

it's literally pedestrian - it's larry nance or iggy-caliber, but the winning spotlight inflates this to all-time status and media accolade.

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron James is the GOAT

He has the most playoff:
Points
Steals
Playoff Series Wins
Conference Finals Wins
VORP
Game winning shots

He has the most regular season:
Points
VORP
MVP win shares

It's not close. LeBron James is the GOAT

[StrongLurk]

It's impossible to rank Lebron out of the top five. He has some SERIOUS lows in his early playoff career, but so does everyone else besides MJ really.

What you have to factor in is that Lebron's HIGHS (he has many of them) are MJ-level while MANY all time GOATs literally never reached MJ level.

Lebron's playoff prime lasted 214 freaking games bro...no one else has that many playoff games at a prime level.

And through those 214 games, he snagged 4 FMVPs while having a 29.5 PER, 59.6 TS%, .261 WS/48, 10.6 BPM, and accumulated 27.9 VORP (no one is even close to that VORP number).

You just can't really find anyone in NBA history who can beat the bolded besides MJ.

[3ba11]

It's impossible to rank Lebron out of the top five. He has some SERIOUS lows in his early playoff career, but so does everyone else besides MJ really.

What you have to factor in is that Lebron's HIGHS (he has many of them) are MJ-level while MANY all time GOATs literally never reached MJ level.

Lebron's playoff prime lasted 214 freaking games bro...no one else has that many playoff games at a prime level.

And through those 214 games, he snagged 4 FMVPs while having a 29.5 PER, 59.6 TS%, .261 WS/48, 10.6 BPM, and accumulated 27.9 VORP (no one is even close to that VORP number).

You just can't really find anyone in NBA history who can beat the bolded besides MJ.


FG%

04-08' Lebron..... 46.7 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2004-2008-sum:per_game)

09-10] Lebron.... 49.6 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game)

11-18' Lebron..... 53.4 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2011-2018-sum:per_game).


efficiency is boosted by facing less defensive attention, and Lebron had an abnormal reduction in the defensive attention he faced by obtaining the only team in the league with 3 franchise guys on 1 team and 6 straight preseason favorites (unprecedented)..

obviously, this artificial reduction of defensive attention and the resulting artificial boost of efficiency is why his PER, WS, and other advanced stats are inflated... carry on tho

[sdot_thadon]

FG%

04-08' Lebron..... 46.7 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2004-2008-sum:per_game)

09-10] Lebron.... 49.6 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game)

11-18' Lebron..... 53.4 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html#2011-2018-sum:per_game).


efficiency is boosted by facing less defensive attention, and Lebron had an abnormal reduction in the defensive attention he faced by obtaining the only team in the league with 3 franchise guys on 1 team and 6 straight preseason favorites (unprecedented)..

obviously, this artificial reduction of defensive attention and the resulting artificial boost of efficiency is why his PER, WS, and other advanced stats are inflated... carry on tho

Or it's just a timeline of working on and getting better at his craft and figuring out the defenses crafted to beat him paired with having actual contender level teammates ya know. He didn't get his "Pippen" so early in his career.

[3ba11]

.
09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html)......... 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense








Lebron didn't get his "Pippen" so early in his career.







Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them or win anything with them:




05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html)............... 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'............ 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5



And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'.

So again, Lebron's efficiency became artificially-inflated by reducing his defensive attention (teaming up with 2 other franchise guys) - so his advanced stats like PER, etc are inflated from 2011 onwards.. Of course we see the big dip in 2019 before he artificially-inflated his efficiency again by adding AD (thereby reducing his own defensive attention)

[StrongLurk]

It's impossible to rank Lebron out of the top five. He has some SERIOUS lows in his early playoff career, but so does everyone else besides MJ really.

What you have to factor in is that Lebron's HIGHS (he has many of them) are MJ-level while MANY all time GOATs literally never reached MJ level.

Lebron's playoff prime lasted 214 freaking games bro...no one else has that many playoff games at a prime level.

And through those 214 games, he snagged 4 FMVPs while having a 29.5 PER, 59.6 TS%, .261 WS/48, 10.6 BPM, and accumulated 27.9 VORP (no one is even close to that VORP number).

You just can't really find anyone in NBA history who can beat the bolded besides MJ.

[ELITEpower23]

It's impossible to rank Lebron out of the top five. He has some SERIOUS lows in his early playoff career, but so does everyone else besides MJ really.

What you have to factor in is that Lebron's HIGHS (he has many of them) are MJ-level while MANY all time GOATs literally never reached MJ level.

Lebron's playoff prime lasted 214 freaking games bro...no one else has that many playoff games at a prime level.

And through those 214 games, he snagged 4 FMVPs while having a 29.5 PER, 59.6 TS%, .261 WS/48, 10.6 BPM, and accumulated 27.9 VORP (no one is even close to that VORP number).

You just can't really find anyone in NBA history who can beat the bolded besides MJ.

Body bagged.

[3ba11]

It's impossible to rank Lebron out of the top five. He has some SERIOUS lows in his early playoff career, but so does everyone else besides MJ really.

What you have to factor in is that Lebron's HIGHS (he has many of them) are MJ-level while MANY all time GOATs literally never reached MJ level.

Lebron's playoff prime lasted 214 freaking games bro...no one else has that many playoff games at a prime level.

And through those 214 games, he snagged 4 FMVPs while having a 29.5 PER, 59.6 TS%, .261 WS/48, 10.6 BPM, and accumulated 27.9 VORP (no one is even close to that VORP number).

You just can't really find anyone in NBA history who can beat the bolded besides MJ.


Meaningless.

FMVP's don't mean much when comparing to other all-timers because AD was the best player on the 2020 run and also against Jokic, so that ring is like Kobe's rings with Shaq - the 01' and 02' rings were pretty even 1a/1b type thing just like Lebron's 2020 ring.

And then you have to give a ring back because Lebron gave one up in 2011 - that's a negative chip... If you don't look at it this way, then you're letting him get away with choking that ring off...

So Lebron has 2 real rings that compare to the ring quality of other all-timers, and actually only 1 because the 2012 ring was against babies - it's impossible to lose to 22-year olds - that's why Lebron got a pass for losing in 07'... And again, Lebron's numbers are inflated as the previous post shows.

[ELITEpower23]

LeBron James is the GOAT

He has the most playoff:
Points
Steals
Playoff Series Wins
Conference Finals Wins
VORP
Game winning shots

He has the most regular season:
Points
VORP
MVP win shares

It's not close. LeBron James is the GOAT

[3ba11]

LeBron James is the GOAT

He has the most playoff:
Points
Steals
Playoff Series Wins
Conference Finals Wins
VORP
Game winning shots - bad efficiency on game-winners, and 0-10 on the championship level, aka Finals

He has the most regular season:
Points
VORP
MVP win shares

It's not close. LeBron James is the GOAT


^^^ That's all longevity crap

He never reached the highest caliber of actual basketball play, which is his production rate (dominance) - it trails Jordan in everything except APG and DREB, while his TS advantage is due to drive-heavy ball-dominance and weaker ball movement (losing basketball)... Otherwise, Jordan had better stats in PPG, assisted rate, OREB, SPG, BPG, FT%, TOV's, PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP, plus-minus, raptor, clutch efficiency, game-winner efficiency, possessions used (usage), efficiency on possessions (ortg), team assists (ball movement).

and again, Lebron has horrible efficiency on game-winners, aka massive choke factor by shooting well on regular shots but trash on game-winners or in clutch-time.

[StrongLurk]

Meaningless.

FMVP's don't mean much when comparing to other all-timers because AD was the best player on the 2020 run and also against Jokic, so that ring is like Kobe's rings with Shaq - the 01' and 02' rings were pretty even 1a/1b type thing just like Lebron's 2020 ring.

And then you have to give a ring back because Lebron gave one up in 2011 - that's a negative chip... If you don't look at it this way, then you're letting him get away with choking that ring off...

So Lebron has 2 real rings that compare to the ring quality of other all-timers, and actually only 1 because the 2012 ring was against babies - it's impossible to lose to 22-year olds - that's why Lebron got a pass for losing in 07'... And again, Lebron's numbers are inflated as the previous post shows.

Keep crying :roll:

[sdot_thadon]

.
09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html)......... 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense








Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them or win anything with them:




05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html)............... 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'............ 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5



And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'.

So again, Lebron's efficiency became artificially-inflated by reducing his defensive attention (teaming up with 2 other franchise guys) - so his advanced stats like PER, etc are inflated from 2011 onwards.. Of course we see the big dip in 2019 before he artificially-inflated his efficiency again by adding AD (thereby reducing his own defensive attention)
You're a crackhead for even .mentioning those guys in the same breath as Scottie, you definitely on some pookie shit.

We gonna do that stupid shit we might as well do the just as stupid thing and ask why Mj was winning 30 games with 2 20ppg scorers on his squad one being one of the greatest scorers ever too.

[3ba11]

You're a crackhead for even .mentioning those guys in the same breath as Scottie, you definitely on some pookie shit.

We gonna do that stupid shit we might as well do the just as stupid thing and ask why Mj was winning 30 games with 2 20ppg scorers on his squad one being one of the greatest scorers ever too.


2005 Hughes > 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - it's a fact



05' HUGHES................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D


lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them..

And jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs, so it's crazy to have a better scorer than Pippen at THIRD option, and better ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls as well....

So Lebron's early Cavs teams had more scoring help and better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat bulls.

[sdot_thadon]

2005 Hughes > 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - it's a fact



05' HUGHES................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D


lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them..

And jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs, so it's crazy to have a better scorer than Pippen at THIRD option, and better ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls as well....

So Lebron's early Cavs teams had more scoring help and better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat bulls.

Yeah and Mj was getting absolutely spanked despite having 20 ppg scorers before playing with him like woolridge, gervin, cartwright, Allstars and legends on his early squads. Why did that happen? Did he suck? Was Mike ball a loser's strategy that could only yield 1-9 results?

[3ba11]

Yeah and Mj was getting absolutely spanked despite having 20 ppg scorers before playing with him like woolridge, gervin, cartwright, Allstars and legends on his early squads. Why did that happen? Did he suck? Was Mike ball a loser's strategy that could only yield 1-9 results?


Rookie Jordan only had 1 year to grow with Woolridge, but they did win 11 more games in that 1 year.

And Jordan never played with Gervin, while Cartwright was nothing before joining the Bulls - this differs from Hughes, who was better than 1990 Pippen across the board right before joining Lebron.. Ditto Jamison, Mo or Zydrunas - they were all crushing it right before joining Lebron.

So only Lebron cratered a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, while also failing to develop or win with 3 other guys that were also better than 1990 Pippen (05' Zydrunas, 09' Jamison, 09' Mo)

[Hey Yo]

2005 Hughes > 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - it's a fact



05' HUGHES................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN.................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D


lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them..

And jamison was a rare 20k scorer that outplayed Lebron in the 07' Playoffs, so it's crazy to have a better scorer than Pippen at THIRD option, and better ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat Bulls as well....

So Lebron's early Cavs teams had more scoring help and better-ranked defenses than the 1st three-peat bulls.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CLE/2005.html

Not seeing Hughes on the 2005 Cavs roster.... do you?

[sdot_thadon]

Rookie Jordan only had 1 year to grow with Woolridge, but they did win 11 more games in that 1 year.

And Jordan never played with Gervin, while Cartwright was nothing before joining the Bulls - this differs from Hughes, who was better than 1990 Pippen across the board right before joining Lebron.. Ditto Jamison, Mo or Zydrunas - they were all crushing it right before joining Lebron.

So only Lebron cratered a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, while also failing to develop or win with 3 other guys that were also better than 1990 Pippen (05' Zydrunas, 09' Jamison, 09' Mo)

You're ignorant af, how many seasons did lebron have to "grow" with Hughes? 2 injury plagued ones if you add the games up?

Actually Cartwright was a former allstar and had a couple of 20ppg seasons as a 1st option before a major foot just like Big Z injury and Ewing taking the starting spot as he should. Tell the whole story hoe.

[3ba11]

You're ignorant af, how many seasons did lebron have to "grow" with Hughes? 2 injury plagued ones if you add the games up?

Actually Cartwright was a former allstar and had a couple of 20ppg seasons as a 1st option before a major foot just like Big Z injury and Ewing taking the starting spot as he should. Tell the whole story hoe.


The bottom line is that Lebron received 4 guys that were playing better than 1990 Pippen, yet he couldn't develop any of them or win anything...

So MJ took 1990 Pippen and won 6 chips with him, while Lebron got 4 guys better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop or win shit

[sdot_thadon]

The bottom line is that Lebron received 4 guys that were playing better than 1990 Pippen, yet he couldn't develop any of them or win anything...

So MJ took 1990 Pippen and won 6 chips with him, while Lebron got 4 guys better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop or win shit

Cap. Pippen was an allstar in 1990. Big Z was an allstar a year before playing with Lebron, Jamison 2 years before playing with him. Mo? Hughes? Never.

[ShawkFactory]

Are we REALLY going back-and-forth with 3ball on Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Big Z, and 90 Pippen again? :lol

All of what you're saying has been said before. The arguments have been picked apart numerous times. Just let him keep saying things if he wants; it doesn't have to be addressed.

[3ba11]

Are we REALLY going back-and-forth with 3ball on Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Big Z, and 90 Pippen again? :lol

All of what you're saying has been said before. The arguments have been picked apart numerous times. Just let him keep saying things if he wants; it doesn't have to be addressed.


They've never been picked apart, or sdot would be doing that instead of getting destroyed

[sdot_thadon]

Are we REALLY going back-and-forth with 3ball on Larry Hughes, Mo Williams, Big Z, and 90 Pippen again? :lol

All of what you're saying has been said before. The arguments have been picked apart numerous times. Just let him keep saying things if he wants; it doesn't have to be addressed.

I know man, we just all like to hit the pinata every now and then. He literally gets his shit pushed in every time he posts. He's resilient if anything else.

[sdot_thadon]

They've never been picked apart, or sdot would be doing that instead of getting destroyed

:oldlol: they got medicine for that bud.

[RRR3]

I know man, we just all like to hit the pinata every now and then. He literally gets his shit pushed in every time he posts. He's resilient if anything else.
He was voted the most destroyed poster in basketball discussions by a gigantic margin: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497552-Most-destroyed-poster-in-basketball-discussions

[sdot_thadon]

He was voted the most destroyed poster in basketball discussions by a gigantic margin: http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?497552-Most-destroyed-poster-in-basketball-discussions

Checks out:oldlol: what's crazy is how long he's been getting embarrassed online for his cause, boy got suicide bomber level dedication.

[ShawkFactory]

I know man, we just all like to hit the pinata every now and then. He literally gets his shit pushed in every time he posts. He's resilient if anything else.

Fair enough. As you know I dabble myself for the pure entertainment but the Mo/Hughes/Big Z has been beaten so many times that the horse has completed decomposed at this point :lol

[3ba11]

Mo/Hughes/Big Z has been beaten so many times that the horse has completed decomposed at this point :lol


It's literally never been beaten and won't show a post where it was

It's an amazing argument because the stats do all the work and tell the story, so it isn't a "take" - it's just stats showing that Pippen was inferior to Lebron's early teammates across the board, yet Lebron couldn't develop them or win with them like MJ did with Pippen.

[ShawkFactory]

Ahh the classic, "no it hasn't been refuted, show me the posts!!" You should be less transparent about trying to get people to spend time engaging with you.

[RRR3]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-11-2015/59uB9c.gif
:roll:

[3ba11]

.
History shows that Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them and then win with them like MJ did with Pippen:



05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html)............... 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'............ 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5



^^^ this has never been refuted and cannot be refuted because it's a WIDE CONSENSUS OF STATS

Lebron couldn't develop anyone because his ball-dominant skillset imposes spot-up roles that prevent teammate development or chemistry that can compete on the championship level - bron-ball cannot compete in the Finals (lottery record on the championship level).

[RRR3]

Funnies shit about that post is MJ didn't even win with 1990 Pippen :lol

[3ba11]

Funnies shit about that post is MJ didn't even win with 1990 Pippen :lol


The point is that Lebron can't develop teammates, since he received 4 guys better than Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them like MJ did.

If a player cannot develop teammates, they cannot win organically and need ready-made stars..

Heading into the 2006 season, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas received a player that was playing better than 1990 Pippen - MJ obviously 3-peats with that.

[RRR3]

The point is that Lebron can't develop teammates, since he received 4 guys better than Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them like MJ did.

If a player cannot develop teammates, they cannot win organically and need ready-made stars..

Heading into the 2006 season, the all-star duo of Lebron/Zydrunas received a player that was playing better than 1990 Pippen - MJ obviously 3-peats with that.
MJ took 4 years to win with Pippen. LeBron played with Hughes for 2 full seasons and Mo for 2 seasons. You didn't even give him as much time as you gave MJ :yaohappy:

[3ba11]

MJ took 4 years to win with Pippen. LeBron played with Hughes for 2 full seasons and Mo for 2 seasons. You didn't even give him as much time as you gave MJ :yaohappy:


You think MJ can build a trash rookie into champion overnight?

Pippen grew massively alongside MJ every year, while Hughes, Zydrunas, Mo and Jamison declined each year...

Heck, a guy like Kuzma was going to be a 12 ppg nobody if he never escaped bron-ball.. what a travesty that would've been.

[RRR3]

You think MJ can build a trash rookie into champion overnight?

Pippen grew massively alongside MJ every year, while Hughes, Zydrunas, Mo and Jamison declined each year...

Heck, a guy like Kuzma was going to be a 12 ppg nobody if he never escaped bron-ball.. what a travesty that would've been.
Why didn't you give LeBron as long as you gave MJ? :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

Fair enough. As you know I dabble myself for the pure entertainment but the Mo/Hughes/Big Z has been beaten so many times that the horse has completed decomposed at this point :lol

I hear ya, fossilized horse at this point. What's funniest about his crusade is he's done more to disprove MJ's previously iron clad goat case than to prove Lebron isn't in the discussion. I mean dude literally spams 100s of thousands of posts across the net about there being no conversation. The irony.

[3ba11]

The Cavs pushed the 07-08 ECSF to 7 games vs the KG/RAY/PIERCE Celtics despite Lebron avg 36% FG and 5 turnovers per game.

They lost Game 1 by only 4 points (lebron missed an open layup to tie) despite Lebron going 2-18 with 10 turnovers :biggums: NASTY.

In the games that the Cavs did win (gm 3, 4 and 6), Lebron still only shot 36%.


The only thing you heard about this series was Lebron and Paul Pierce's epic showdown in Game 7. Lebron losing despite an heroic 45 point game performance.

Also the Lebron carried bums narrative, those were the two media driven narratives from that series.


Meanwhile it was the worst series by a superstar player that I can recall, Ewing in the '94 Finals comes to mind also.

It was after this series I realized what was going on. This was about Nike, from the jersey number, king james moniker, Chosen 1 tattoo etc. It was preordained for this guy to be the GOAT and Nike in collusion with the league and media would ensure this happened.





What a great post - Lebron averaged 19 on 26% for the first 4 games, thus requiring Game 7...

Lebron wet the bed for the first 4 games of 3 series, thus needing Game 7 (13' Finals, 16' Finals, 08' ECSF).









Lebron had the talent but lacked a dynamic enough skilset and resolve to challenge for that GOAT title, these people are so arrogant though that they believe they can dictate reality.

And to a degree they've been largely successful, dude even being in the conversation (he shouldn't be) is a testament to
Nike's immense power and reach.





Stats at 23 years old vs champion Celtics and #1 defense

LEBRON....... 26.7 on 35%
JORDAN....... 43.7 on 50%

[Full Court]

Why didn't you give LeBron as long as you gave MJ? :confusedshrug:

^This low IQ loser probably doesn't even realize that Lebron's had 7 more seasons than Jordan and still has two less championships/FMVPs.

:cry: "You're not giving him enough time!!!" :cry:


:roll: