#1 option gets 30 ppg... #2 gets 17-20 maximum.. others get 3-10.. that's 1-man team

[3ba11]

.
Here's a list of all-time producing, "dominant" 1st options that won titles without franchise player at sidekick (since 1980):



Hakeem........ 94'
Kawhi........... 19'
Duncan......... 03'
Dirk.............. 11'
Giannis.......... 21'
Jokic............. 23'
Curry............ 15', 22'
Jordan.......... 91', 92', 93', 96', 97', 98'


Franchise player = a player that was asked to build a team from scratch..

Btw, Wiggins wasn't 1st option as a rookie, so he wasn't building anything himself (he wasn't "the guy"), or from scratch.. Regardless, Curry still has one in 2015

[Carbine]

Why did you forget '11 Dirk

Are you ok?

[3ba11]

Why did you forget '11 Dirk

Are you ok?

fixed.. yeah i'm good.. thx for asking

[Kblaze8855]

Repeat it as much you like, but 20 a game from a second option was not normal in the 90s There are seasons they won the title when he was scoring more per game than Reggie, Larry Johnson, KJ and plenty of others. Your franchise player scored 20 if you were lucky 25 years ago. The other guys weren’t doing that until defense was illegalized and team ball died in favor of analytics suggesting only the best players should have the ball.

that’s why obvious franchise players like Grant Hill were scoring a flat 20 a game some seasons despite playing 41 minutes a night. But if you were going to stop comparing 90s numbers to today just because you know better you would’ve stopped 10 years ago so let me Just go run to Staples and get this laptop my goddaughter needs for school as you do this for 54 posts with the people not sick of it.

[3ba11]

20 a game from a second option was not normal in the 90s


Why repeat the same debunked lies?

Sidekicks in the 90's were "1b's" and elite producers that carried their teams to the Finals - Pippen is the only exception.. Terry Porter averaged 26 and 8 assists in the 92' WCF to carry the Blazers to the Finals (53% on threes with 6 attempts)... He did the same thing in 1990 Playoffs.

KJ averaged 28/9 against Hakeem's championship team in 2 different 7-game series - they would've won both times if Barkley hadn't wet the bed - surely MJ in Barkley's place would've destroyed Hakeem.. KJ also upset Magic's 1 seeded Lakers to make the 90' WCF.

Kemp dominated and took FMVP votes off MJ, while Stockton was an all-time floor general that carried the Jazz to the Finals by dominating the 97' WCF.

So every sidekick was achieving elite stats and carrying their team to the WCF or Finals, except Pippen, who was a low producer and mostly a transition player by comparison.. Ultimately, a peak capability of 20 ppg was not normal in the 90's (abnormally low) and this kind of "just a dunker and system points" capability was the lowest peak capability among 90's sidekicks (not on scouting report according to Shaq).. Since Pippen had the lowest peak capability and didn't require defensive attention, MJ was required to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) at a level that no one in history is remotely close to.

[ShawkFactory]

Why repeat the same debunked lies?



You'd be the number one person to know why someone would do that..

[tpols]

The Raptors were the reigning 1 seed in 2018. Kawhi didn't exactly join a bad team. They added Ibaka and Marc Gasol as well so they were plenty stacked.

[3ba11]

You'd be the number one person to know why someone would do that..


I post STATS... I never lie because any statistical mistake is just a typo or bad memory - there is never an intentional effort to deceive.. furthermore, since all my arguments are backed up by stats, I cannot "lie"... again, except for typos or bad memory of the stats that I list.

otoh, Kblaze just blatantly said an obvious untruth for the purpose of deceiving and making it look like Pippen could score - he couldn't - or he couldn't score on a level that compared to other sidekicks in the 90's, who were elite producers - they carried their teams to conference finals and Finals, while taking defensive attention away from the 1st option.. They were on the scouting report, while Pippen's "just a dunker and system points" capability wasn't.. They were also sharing the scoring load with 3rd, 4th, and 5th scorers, which the Bulls never had.

Again, this guy just lied and said 20 ppg wasn't common among sidekicks in the 90's when it's the exact opposite - it's Pippen's low peak capability of ONLY 20 ppg that was uncommon - every other sidekick achieved elite stats that required scouting report and took defensive attention away from the 1st option - every other sidekick carried their team to the conference finals or Finals with elite stats, EXCEPT pippen... The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, yet he carried the Blazers to the 92' Finals by averaging 26 and 8 assists in the WCF (53% on threes with 6 attempts)... again, that's the WORST sidekick MJ faced in the Finals - Porter was basically Damian Lillard.

[3ba11]

The Raptors were the reigning 1 seed in 2018. Kawhi didn't exactly join a bad team. They added Ibaka and Marc Gasol as well so they were plenty stacked.


totally fair.. kawhi could be removed from the list, however, he was asked to build a Clipper team... he went about it the "lebron" way of recruiting another franchise guy.... but he was still asked to build it... whereas guys like klay, middletown, murray, pippen or terry weren't asked to build anything.

[Carbine]

Why would Kawhi be taken off?

Lowry was not a franchise player. Neither was Gasol at that point in his career. He carried the scoring load (30 vs 19)

Raptors were a playoff joke before Kawhi. A literal joke.

[ShawkFactory]

there is never an intentional effort to deceive..

Noooooooooooooo :lol

[3ba11]

Noooooooooooooo :lol


I guarantee 2 things:


1) you cannot provide a single example

2) you won't even try, because you know you cannot


carry on

[ShawkFactory]

Yea I suppose there is no way to manipulate stats to say what you want them to. Really difficult to omit important ones and certainly impossible to contextlessly throw them out there in an attempt to deceive and shape a narrative.

None of those things can be done. Certainly not by you :lol

[3ba11]

omit important stats


Jordan was better than Lebron at all the other stats too.

Lebron trails Jordan in every defensive stat there is, such as SPG, BPG, DRTG, DBPM, all-defense, DPOY, yearly DPOY voting, and more... Lebron wasn't all-defense in his 30's and therefore wasn't required to be a great defender for the latter half of his chips, while Jordan was one of the steals leaders and 1st team defense for every chip, and usually the blocks leader among backcourt players.

Meanwhile, it's bball 101 that defensive rebounding is purely positional, while Jordan was better at offensive rebounds and team assists/ball movement.. It's wrong to think that a player with 18 assists did better than someone with 8 assists - higher individual assists isn't always better, so it's useless to compare individual APG, unless the player has an actual deficit in assist ability (i.e. cannot average 5 or 6 APG regularly, and not capable of elite assists like 10+ if needed).

Furthermore, assists and rebounds are role player categories, while Lebron's need for scoring help is why he needed so much STAR help.. Otoh, Jordan won with the least all-star help ever because he could carry the star category (scoring)... Btw, Jordan averaged more assists than Lebron in the playoffs for 9 years thru 2014 (thru half their chips) - Jordan barely trails Lebron in assists, so it's a complete misinformation to pretend that assists need to be looked at like there's a big gap or something, or like Jordan couldn't pass.




omit important stats


Bird, Magic and Jokic are better rebounder-passers than Lebron... Even if you disagree, it's obviously very debateable and could go either way.. So the point is that the "lebron-type" of scorer-passer-rebounder is exactly what Jordan already proved that he was far better than when he proved he was better than Magic/Bird..

So it doesn't matter if someone rebounds or assists better than Jordan because Magic and Bird supposedly did too and it didn't matter..

MJ was just too dominant as a 2-way player, while his scoring in particular was unprecedented then and now - no one has been a good enough scorer to undertake the biggest possession burden in the league (usage champ) and still play a championship brand of ball (win as usage champ), yet Jordan did it 5 times.

Ultimately, I've heard other people's reasons for Jordan being GOAT and they suck - they water down Jordan's career to a few soundbites like "6 for 6", or 3-peat... I describe exactly why he went 6/6 - his goat scoring diversity fit with all players and coaches, thereby allowing the highest capacity for chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately, the highest team ceilings/Finals records.. Otoh, Lebron's lack of expert jumpshooting skill and the resulting high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles, which yields the worst chemistry, strategy/coaching, and ultimately team ceilings/Finals records.

[ShawkFactory]

assists and rebounds are role player categories,

Then why do you omit them when discussing role players? Couldn't possibly be to deceive! No way!

[3ba11]

Then why do you omit them when discussing role players? Couldn't possibly be to deceive! No way!


Lebron ranked 3rd or 4th on his own team in rebounding every year from 2004-2010 because he had so much rebounding help - far more than MJ ever had... The exception is 09' where Lebron led the Cavs in rebounding, but MJ led the Bulls in rebounding too (rookie year).

There's a reason why the Cavs were ranked 4th on defense in 2007 even though Lebron wasn't all-defense - it's because their rebounding, rim protection and big men were really good and experienced... The Cavs had about a half-dozen "horace grants" like Zydrunas, Drew Gooden, Ben Wallace, Shaq, Varejao, Hickson, Jamison - that completely annihilates Jordan's rebounding help or rim protection, while also having more scoring options.. Jamison was a better scorer than Pippen but played 3rd option.

So Lebron had more rebounding help, more scoring help, and more passing help because Eric Snow, Larry Hughes, and Mo Williams are equal or better passers than pippen, while Delonte wasn't far off and much better than Paxson or BJ.

[Kblaze8855]

You'd be the number one person to know why someone would do that..

It’s as if he thinks nobody has either a memory of the time or ability to look up the stats. 20ppg for a second option in the 90s was factually unusual. What someone averages for 12 days doesn’t change any of that.

Back then you expected like 20-22 from your main scorer and hoped he had another guy giving you 18ish. Just the way it was.

All this 2-3 guys all scoring 22-28 like today would have been shocking. And it lasted deep into the 2000s. The reason Shaq and Kobe were unbeatable for a while was them having each other and nobody else having a second option better than Antione Walker, Glenn Robinson, or Michael Finley types giving them 18-22 a game on a lot of shots in big minutes.

And those 20ppg types were rarely giving you that 20 as an afterthought to their true value like Pippen.

30-35 years ago you were lucky to have a Jeff Malone sidekick scoring 20 and having nothing else to offer. Hersey Hawkins as a second guy would be a stroke of luck for some of the teams back then.

Anyone scoring 20 and even being competent all around made you a dangerous duo. You might get a damn nba vhs segment like Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman got.

Teams were built for depth. They didn’t do this current shit where only 2 guys touch the ball. A guy like Barkley plays 38 minutes a game and takes 15 shots a night some years.

The modern game has warped perceptions. 20-22 for the other guy was unusual for decades. There are plenty of MVPs and hall of fame guys who didn’t get past that 22-23 range or only did so once or twice and some of them were pure scorers. Earl Monroe got past 23 a game 3 times as a pure scorer who played till he was 35. Glenn Robinson is considered a bucket. A pure scorer pull-up midrange specialist type. Played 41 minutes a game and took over 20 shots the one season he got past 22 points.

Ray Allen didn’t go past 22 a game in 13 seasons.

The idea that low 20s or even high teens isn’t enough for a guy who scores as an afterthought in that era of few multi star teams is hilarious.

You were lucky for your other guy to score 20 a game 30 years ago.

[RRR3]

It’s as if he thinks nobody has either a memory of the time or ability to look up the stats. 20ppg for a second option in the 90s was factually unusual. What someone averages for 12 days doesn’t change any of that.

Back then you expected like 20-22 from your main scorer and hoped he had another guy giving you 18ish. Just the way it was.

All this 2-3 guys all scoring 22-28 like today would have been shocking. And it lasted deep into the 2000s. The reason Shaq and Kobe were unbeatable for a while was them having each other and nobody else having a second option better than Antione Walker, Glenn Robinson, or Michael Finley types giving them 18-22 a game on a lot of shots in big minutes.

And those 20ppg types were rarely giving you that 20 as an afterthought to their true value like Pippen.

30-35 years ago you were lucky to have a Jeff Malone sidekick scoring 20 and having nothing else to offer. Hersey Hawkins as a second guy would be a stroke of luck for some of the teams back then.

Anyone scoring 20 and even being competent all around made you a dangerous duo. You might get a damn nba vhs segment like Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman got.

Teams were built for depth. They didn’t do this current shit where only 2 guys touch the ball. A guy like Barkley plays 38 minutes a game and takes 15 shots a night some years.

The modern game has warped perceptions. 20-22 for the other guy was unusual for decades. There are plenty of MVPs and hall of fame guys who didn’t get past that 22-23 range or only did so once or twice and some of them were pure scorers. Earl Monroe got past 23 a game 3 times as a pure scorer who played till he was 35. Glenn Robinson is considered a bucket. A pure scorer pull-up midrange specialist type. Played 41 minutes a game and took over 20 shots the one season he got past 22 points.

Ray Allen didn’t go past 22 a game in 13 seasons.

The idea that low 20s or even high teens isn’t enough for a guy who scores as an afterthought in that era of few multi star teams is hilarious.

You were lucky for your other guy to score 20 a game 30 years ago.
He will never respond to this.

[3ba11]

He will never respond to this.


I just did in the previous post

[3ba11]

.
.
The GOAT won 6 of 6 Finals with bigger deficits at the 3 thru 7 roster spots than the 24' Mavs had versus the Celtics:




1992 Finals

3. Kersey 14.8
4. Robinson 10.3
5. Ainge 10.0
6. Duckworth 9.3
7. Williams 7.8
________________
52.2 of 96.7 (53.9%)


3. Paxson 10.3
4. Grant 9.2
5. Cartwright 6.3
6. Armstrong 5.8
7. Williams 5.5
________________
37.1 of 104.0 (35.6%)


GAP: 18.3 percentage points



2024 FINALS

3. Holiday 14.4
4. White 13.8
5. Porzingas 12.3
6. Hauser 8.2
7. Horford 7.0
________________
55.7 of 101.6 (54.8%)


3. Washington 10.8
4. Gafford 8.0
5. Jones Jr. 6.6
6. Lively 5.6
7. Green 5.4
________________
36.4 points of 99.2 (36.7%)


GAP: 17.9 percentage points





It’s as if he thinks nobody has either a memory of the time or ability to look up the stats. 20ppg for a second option in the 90s was factually unusual. What someone averages for 12 days doesn’t change any of that.

Back then you expected like 20-22 from your main scorer and hoped he had another guy giving you 18ish. Just the way it was.

All this 2-3 guys all scoring 22-28 like today would have been shocking. And it lasted deep into the 2000s. The reason Shaq and Kobe were unbeatable for a while was them having each other and nobody else having a second option better than Antione Walker, Glenn Robinson, or Michael Finley types giving them 18-22 a game on a lot of shots in big minutes.

And those 20ppg types were rarely giving you that 20 as an afterthought to their true value like Pippen.

30-35 years ago you were lucky to have a Jeff Malone sidekick scoring 20 and having nothing else to offer. Hersey Hawkins as a second guy would be a stroke of luck for some of the teams back then.

Anyone scoring 20 and even being competent all around made you a dangerous duo. You might get a damn nba vhs segment like Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman got.

Teams were built for depth. They didn’t do this current shit where only 2 guys touch the ball. A guy like Barkley plays 38 minutes a game and takes 15 shots a night some years.

The modern game has warped perceptions. 20-22 for the other guy was unusual for decades. There are plenty of MVPs and hall of fame guys who didn’t get past that 22-23 range or only did so once or twice and some of them were pure scorers. Earl Monroe got past 23 a game 3 times as a pure scorer who played till he was 35. Glenn Robinson is considered a bucket. A pure scorer pull-up midrange specialist type. Played 41 minutes a game and took over 20 shots the one season he got past 22 points.

Ray Allen didn’t go past 22 a game in 13 seasons.

The idea that low 20s or even high teens isn’t enough for a guy who scores as an afterthought in that era of few multi star teams is hilarious.

You were lucky for your other guy to score 20 a game 30 years ago



Teams have never required high-scoring and legendary performances from casts in the regular season, such as Kyrie averaging less than 20 in the 2016 regular season, or ditto Jamal Murray.. It's the playoffs where sidekick performances can be dominant and that's where ballhandlers or wings like Kyrie, KJ, Terry Porter, Murray, Penny, Worthy, Kemp and many more averaged 25-30 or dominated to carry their teams to the conference Finals, Finals, or dominate the Finals.

Pippen was the only exception because he was mostly a dunker and transition player with low peak capability (not on scouting reports according to Shaq).. His lack of scoring ability is why MJ had to carry the scoring load in every series, while everyone else enjoyed sidekicks that matched them for entire playoff runs.

In addition to the Bulls lacking an elite-scoring threat at sidekick, it's actually more significant that they had massive deficits at the 3 through 12 spots - they were literally annihilated in nearly every series at these spots - the 92' Finals showed the Bulls with bigger deficits at these spots than the 24' Mavs against the Celtics.. (stats above).

Btw, it's important to note the best point guards in the 80's and 90's averaged 20/10 because excessive ball-domination was considered bad, so it wasn't until the playoffs that we saw ball-handlers average 25-30 like today's players.. Again, Pippen was the only exception - among notable 90's sidekicks, he had worst passing, efficiency/spacing, clutch and peak scoring ability (not on scouting report).

[RRR3]

I just did in the previous post
No you didn't, you liar.

[3ba11]

No you didn't, you liar.


Yeah, I did - I just reposted it in post #20 in case you missed it

Btw, since Pippen's peak was 22 ppg of system points and transition, jordan HAD to average 30-40.. Otoh, tandems like Drexler/Porter, or Payton/Kemp, or Shaq/Penny, or KJ/Barkley were all capable of elite production (25-30+), so neither guy was forced to have big series like MJ did every series with a low-peak sidekick (transition dunker mostly).. These teams also had 3rd, 4th and 5th scorers, which MJ never had.

[RRR3]

You didn't respond to his points, you just copy pasted bullshit.

[3ba11]

Back then you expected like 20-22 from your main scorer.





Dozens (hundreds?) of guys averaged 25+ just like today's game, such as Dale Ellis, Mitch Richmond, Mullin, Barkley, Ewing, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Bernard King, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe, Moses Malone, Dominique, Bird, Karl Malone, Dantley, Gervin, Dr. J, Kareem, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Mashburn, Jim Jackson and more.

Do I need to answer the rest when the 1st part of your post was that big of a whopper?






It’s as if he thinks nobody has either a memory of the time or ability to look up the stats.


20ppg for a second option in the 90s was factually unusual.





Really?... There were plenty of 20 ppg sidekicks in the 90's (too many to list), but I'll list some of the 20 ppg third options to make the point even stronger:



* The 91' Warriors had Mullin, Hardaway and Mitch Richmond between 23-26 ppg..

* The 95' Sonics had 3 All-NBA players (Payton, Kemp, Schrempf) and they averaged 21/19/19.

* The 96' Mavs had Mashburn/Jackson/McCloud averaging 23/20/19 and they had Kidd at 17..

* The 96' Rockets were defending repeat champs and pursuing a 3-peat with Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler - they weren't all 20 ppg, but they were all still 25+ scorers on their own.

* Chambers, Eddie Johnson and KJ averaged 20+ in 1989, and they upset Magic's 1-seeded Lakers in 1990 after adding Hornacek (17 ppg).


These are just a few of the THIRD options that averaged 19 or 20, let alone the sidekicks of which there were too many to list.






What someone averages for 12 days doesn’t change any of that.





The playoffs are literally all that matters

Since you agree with my argument as it applies to the only part that matters, you lose.

If you were an opposing coach and scouted the Mavs or Nuggets by looking at Kyrie or Jamal Murray's regular season numbers, you would be the dumbest coach in the world...

Same goes for guys like Worthy, Dumars, and pippen too but the opposite way for pip.. A coach can anticipate significant decline in a large portion of Pippen's playoff series and overall - his shooting splits and efficiency are literally the worst ever for 3 title runs and below league average true shooting for nearly his entire playoff career.







And it lasted deep into the 2000s. The reason Shaq and Kobe were unbeatable for a while was them having each other and nobody else having a second option better than Antione Walker, Glenn Robinson, or Michael Finley types giving them 18-22 a game on a lot of shots in big minutes.





Yes it's true that anyone should be unbeatable with a franchise player at sidekick (a guy that was asked to build a team from scratch), and the Lakers were the only team with 2 franchise guys like this during that time of the early 2000's.... This is similar to the 2010's, where the only guy that had franchise guys at 2nd or 3rd option and preseason favorite status for 6 straight years was Lebron, until KD finally decided to do something to overcome this unprecedented advantage.







And those 20ppg types were rarely giving you that 20 as an afterthought to their true value like Pippen.





Pippen's 20 ppg was a disadvantage compared to your typical 20 ppg because it had low peak capability as a dunker and transition player primarily... He couldn't "take over" a series and dominate with elite stats like 25-30 ppg, but every other sidekick could and was therefore on scouting reports - they attracted defensive attention, while Pippen forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) at an unprecedented level, then and now.

And individual defense is vastly overrated because there are many ways to skin a cat - even though Lebron wasn't all-defense in 2007, those Cavs had better defensive personnel than the MJ/Pippen tandem, as the defensive ranking shows... They achieved superior defensive ranking than the 1st three-peat Bulls by having all-defensive backcourt (Snow, Hughes) and good rebounding and rim protection from their frontcourt (Zydrunas, Varejao, Gooden)..

Again, the "many ways to skin a cat" reality of team defense is why individual defense is overrated when comparing players.. the reality is that Pippen's weak offense requires expensive offensive help (a GM's nightmare), while the great offensive players like Luka, Curry or MJ allow GM's to surround them with cheap defenders, thereby allowing greater team defensive capacity.

In addition to the "many ways to skin a cat" reality of team defense, Pippen's defense was also drastically overrated because there's no amount of defense that would allow AD, KAT or other top sidekicks to get away with the kind of scoring and efficiency that Pippen routinely produced, such as record-worst shooting splits for 3 title runs, or 19 on 42% for his Finals career - he also had clutch or big shot responsibility, while having several massive bed-wettings of negative series.







30-35 years ago you were lucky to have a Jeff Malone sidekick scoring 20 and having nothing else to offer. Hersey Hawkins as a second guy would be a stroke of luck for some of the teams back then.





yawn (nonsense, like the rest of your post, debunked above)... :violin:

[Kblaze8855]

Dozens (hundreds?) of guys averaged 25+ just like today's game, such as Dale Ellis, Mitch Richmond, Mullin, Barkley, Ewing, MJ, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Bernard King, Alex English, Kiki Vandeweghe, Moses Malone, Dominique, Bird, Karl Malone, Dantley, Gervin, Dr. J, Kareem, Drexler, Hill, Penny, Mashburn, Jim Jackson and more.

Do I need to answer the rest when the 1st part of your post was that big of a whopper?



30 years ago 7 teams had a 22 a game scorer out of 27 in the league. 9 players were from 20-22. None of the 20 a game guys played together. The highest scoring second at a glance was between Jackson and Mashburn who both scored 19.2 on the Mavs. Unless I missed someone the only second who scored 19.2 was playing with a first who scored 19.2 and change.

You starting your post that way then listing guys spread over decades with primes from the early 70s to late 90s is…a choice.

One that confirms my assumption you still don’t have anything to say that anyone who lived through the time you talk about needs to hear. As poorly as your shit seems to work on young people, it works even less on people who sat and watched all this live. The other guy in that era was not expected to score very much. Most of the lead guys were not expected to score that much. People are in the Hall of Fame for nothing but their ability to score, who did not generally score more than 20.

Youre free to lie about it but it’s recorded history. 20 from a second before the league altered itself to create more scorers was exceptional. When it happened it was noteworthy not expected like it is now. We remember them and talk about them decades later. Only 2 22 a game players from any season 91-95 aren’t already in the hall of fame(Danny Manning and Glen Rice). I promise Cam Thomas and his 22.5 last year aren’t going. 18-22 from a second used to be plenty. Hell it was normal for a first. Now it isn’t.

Just how it is. You not liking it doesn’t change it. I don’t like Brussels sprouts. Yet there they sit on half the menus in America.

Some things are not ours to change.

[3ba11]

. Hurrdurrr


Didn't read because you lied so much in your original post by saying teams expected 20-22 from their top guy

I already exposed this and all your lies in my previous post, while you just responded with gobblygook... I'm happy to take the win.

Pippen was just a dunker and transition player, whose low peak capability didn't command defensive attention, so Jordan to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load), which is unique to Jordan.

[dankok8]

Kblaze is right that scoring was generally much lower in the 90's but that also really depends what part of the 90's. Early 90's had plenty of high scorers and even plenty of 20+ ppg second options but the late 90's had far fewer. That's also why 3ball's examples are all from the early or mid 90's. By the late 90's it was tougher to find second options putting up 20 ppg. So it depends which part of the decade we're talking about. Teams were averaging 106.3 ppg in 1991 but only 95.6 ppg in 1998.

[Kblaze8855]

When 22 a game is eighth in the league in scoring or fifth in the league as it was by 98 if you expect more than 20 to 22 from your leading scorer, you’re likely to be disappointed.

Keep up you “The sky was Bright red in the 90s not blue” Talk for another decade, but a tremendous number of people remember seeing the sky in the 90s. And the people who don’t can look up pictures.

if you were any good at this, you wouldn’t have to do it for 10-15 years. Somebody you’re talking to would’ve been convinced. The world has gone the complete opposite direction of your crusade. Maybe change tactics? Jordan was a lot more highly regarded before you started all this. Both here and worldwide. Lying about the 90s doesn’t seem to be working.

You should’ve figured that out when even the people old enough to know your general point about who the best is is true realized you were crazy 20 minutes into your decade long campaign.

The only evidence you have had any impact is an extreme increase in peoples willingness to declare victory while factually being defeated and relegated to the sidelines. But I’m fairly certain Trump has more to do with that than you do.

keep it up though. You don’t seem to have it in you to do anything else. And your emails and begging to return and have new accounts activated when it’s taken from you give me concerns about what you might do when deprived of it.

So….you have a nice day with all this. I’m not gonna risk your mental state by trying to stop you. Talk to you again in 8-9 months.

[SouBeachTalents]

When 22 a game is eighth in the league in scoring or fifth in the league as it was by 98 if you expect more than 20 to 22 from your leading scorer, you’re likely to be disappointed.

Keep up you “The sky was Bright red in the 90s not blue” Talk for another decade, but a tremendous number of people remember seeing the sky in the 90s. And the people who don’t can look up pictures.

if you were any good at this, you wouldn’t have to do it for 10-15 years. Somebody you’re talking to would’ve been convinced. The world has gone the complete opposite direction of your crusade. Maybe change tactics? Jordan was a lot more highly regarded before you started all this. Both here and worldwide. Lying about the 90s doesn’t seem to be working.

You should’ve figured that out when even the people old enough to know your general point about who the best is is true realized you were crazy 20 minutes into your decade long campaign.

The only evidence you have had any impact is an extreme increase in peoples willingness to declare victory while factually being defeated and relegated to the sidelines. But I’m fairly certain Trump has more to do with that than you do.

keep it up though. You don’t seem to have it in you to do anything else. And your emails and begging to return and have new accounts activated when it’s taken from you give me concerns about what you might do when deprived of it.

So….you have a nice day with all this. I’m not gonna risk your mental state by trying to stop you. Talk to you again in 8-9 months.
:oldlol:

https://c.tenor.com/wvgUyhzc3y8AAAAd/tenor.gif

[Hey Yo]

There was so much scoring in the 90's that Stern felt the need to move the 3pt line closer.

[sdot_thadon]

It's almost as if the guy scoring the most in comparison to his teammates is also taking the most shots in relation to his teammates:hammerhead: and the guys who have multiple 20 point scorers on a team also have similar fga to their teammates? Funny how sharing the wealth works.....

[3ba11]

:oldlol:

https://c.tenor.com/wvgUyhzc3y8AAAAd/tenor.gif


lol i didn't even see that part... i honestly responded to the first few lies so thoroughly that i didn't read the rest

that's funny

he's lying of course... 3ba11 is the only account I have - they also stole the original 3ball account and occasionally post on it in other forums.. it's a sad display

[tpols]

It's almost as if the guy scoring the most in comparison to his teammates is also taking the most shots in relation to his teammates:hammerhead: and the guys who have multiple 20 point scorers on a team also have similar fga to their teammates? Funny how sharing the wealth works.....

I think the main point is Pippen got outplayed offensively by a lot of guys and never really showed a peak ceiling like James Worthy, Joe Dumars, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson, Clyde Drexler (Houston), Penny, Stockton, Kemp, and even guys like Detlef Stremph and X-man outscored him H2H in the playoffs yet the Media makes it look like Scottie Pippen is better than all of them and by a lot which is due to the winning spotlight MJ provided which in turn enhanced his legacy beyond what his actual all time impact was.

[sdot_thadon]

I think the main point is Pippen got outplayed offensively by a lot of guys and never really showed a peak ceiling like James Worthy, Joe Dumars, Terry Porter, Kevin Johnson, Clyde Drexler (Houston), Penny, Stockton, Kemp, and even guys like Detlef Stremph and X-man outscored him H2H in the playoffs yet the Media makes it look like Scottie Pippen is better than all of them and by a lot which is due to the winning spotlight MJ provided which in turn enhanced his legacy beyond what his actual all time impact was.

Lunacy.

How many of those guys mentioned peaked at 1st team All nba and all defense in the same season one time, let alone the several times Scottie pulled it off. Go back and see how many shots a game the guys you listed took a game in comparison to Pippen. Mj got to wear the lone ranger hat and Scottie wore many hats, honestly the only guy from that lost I'm even considering taking over Scottie in the moment, without hindsight is Penny because he was so dynamic with the ball. That said Scottie gives you leadership, playmaking, a defensive anchor from the wing and the ability to be like Mike lite for small stretches. He was the perfect running mate for Mj.

Something Kblaze mentioned earlier definitely rings true. The people who watched him in real time understood what Scottie was respected it accordingly at the time. It was revised by certain fans once they needed stupid points to argue that were unnecessary for something so far and away obvious at that time.Mj was the clear goat by laps back them, but that wasn't enough.

[3ba11]

Kblaze is right that scoring was generally much lower in the 90's but that also really depends what part of the 90's.





Kblaze said:



"Back then you expected like 20-22 from your main scorer"


That's a huge lie - all of Jordan's opponents averaged 25-30 in their prime like Ewing, Drexler, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Malone, Barkley and more.






By the late 90's it was tougher to find second options putting up 20 ppg.





20 ppg tandems in 1996:



Grant Hill/Allan Houston

Glenn Robinson/Vin Baker

Hakeem/Drexler

Sean Elliot/David Robinson

Shaq/Penny

Jim Jackson/Mashburn

Glen Rice/Larry Johnson


^^^ no MJ/Pippen

Why do you and Kblaze keep lying?... :biggums:







Teams were averaging 106.3 ppg in 1991 but only 95.6 ppg in 1998.





Okay so that means the role players were taking haircuts, or a tandem of 25 and 21 ppg might be 24 and 19... whooptiwhoop..

You're putting too much weight into the point differential as it relates to the league having great scorers, and how the typical "good scorer" compares to a dunker and system guy like Pippen..

Of course, the playoffs tells the story of who the real scorers are - all the sidekicks like KJ, Porter, Worthy, Dumars, and Kemp completely dominated and even won FMVP, while Pippen had worst-ever efficiency on 3 title runs and wasn't on scouting reports due to "just a dunker" low peak ability, aka system player (19 on 42% for his Finals career).

To summarize - there were plenty of 25+ scorers and 20+ sidekicks throughout the 90's... the lower team ppg of the late 90's yielded immaterial haircuts to players' averages that don't change the point being made about great scorers throughout the decade.. Finally, and most importantly - scoring and efficiency in the PLAYOFFS reveals who the real scorers are that require defensive attention, versus the system players that force the 1st option to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load).

[dankok8]

3ball

In 1998 there was only one 20 ppg tandem and it was Robinson and Duncan. I mentioned that season.

In 1996 there were only three 20 ppg tandems: Shaq/Penny, Robinson/Elliot, Rice/Johnson. Some of the other guys you listed didn't play enough games to qualify or were under 20 ppg.

[3ba11]

3ball

In 1998 there was only one 20 ppg tandem and it was Robinson and Duncan. I mentioned that season.

In 1996 there were only three 20 ppg tandems: Shaq/Penny, Robinson/Elliot, Rice/Johnson. Some of the other guys you listed didn't play enough games to qualify or were under 20 ppg.



20 ppg tandems in 1996


* Grant Hill/Allan Houston

* Glenn Robinson/Vin Baker

* Sean Elliot/David Robinson

* Shaq/Penny

* Glen Rice/Larry Johnson


https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996_per_game.html#per_game_stats::pts_per_g



Mashburn/Jackson and Webber/Howard were also 20 ppg tandems but missed games, while KJ/Barkley and Hakeem/Drexler were 24/19 tandems.

Pippen was just a dunker with low peak ability, so he didn't command defensive attention, which forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load) - only MJ had to do this for every series and playoff run of his career, and only MJ had to carry the load to the EXTENT that he did (10-30 more than all teammates for every series).

[3ba11]

.
Elite Ability Among 90's Sidekicks



ELITE PASSERS - Payton, Stockton, KJ, Hardaway

ELITE SCORING THREATS - Porter, KJ, Hardaway, Penny, Worthy, Drexler (rockets)

ELITE SHOOTERS - Porter, Elliot, Schrempf, Starks

ELITE LEADERS - Porter, Payton, Stockton

ELITE DEFENDERS - Payton, Pippen, Starks, Stockton


Pippen shows up once on the list... :confusedshrug:

[3ba11]

.


Elite Ability Among 90's Sidekicks



ELITE PASSERS - Payton, Stockton, KJ, Hardaway

ELITE SCORING THREATS - Porter, KJ, Hardaway, Penny, Worthy, Drexler (rockets)

ELITE SHOOTERS - Porter, Elliot, Schrempf, Starks

ELITE LEADERS - Porter, Payton, Stockton

ELITE DEFENDERS - Payton, Pippen, Starks, Stockton


Pippen shows up once on the list... :confusedshrug:







Thread Cliffs

Unlike every other notable sidekick in the 90's, Pippen couldn't score or assist at elite levels.

He couldn't dominate and was "just a dunker/system player" with no defensive attention required, so MJ faced max defensive attention (carried scoring load).

Among notable sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, scoring, efficiency, clutch, and peak scoring ability (not on scouting report according to Shaq).

[3ba11]

.
.
Kblaze says this is false but it's true and the source is provided:



20 ppg tandems in 1996


* Grant Hill/Allan Houston

* Glenn Robinson/Vin Baker

* Sean Elliot/David Robinson

* Shaq/Penny

* Glen Rice/Larry Johnson


^^^ MJ/Pippen not on the list..

Mashburn/Jackson and Webber/Howard were also 20 ppg tandems but missed games, while KJ/Barkley and Hakeem/Drexler were 24/19 tandems.

Source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_1996_per_game.html#per_game_stats::pts_per_g



^^^ they can't refute these facts, so they call them lies.. carry on

[dankok8]

Allan Houston is under 20 ppg.

[ShawkFactory]

Allan Houston is under 20 ppg.

And Pippen was at 19.4 :lol

I'd love to do an advanced and all-around numbers game with some of those other 20ppg guys and compare to Pippen that year, who was first team all-defense and 2nd in DPOY voting. But I know that'd be a waste of time.

But my guess is that Glen Rice, Vin Baker, Sean Elliot, etc wouldn't um...wouldn't really be there.

[dankok8]

And Pippen was at 19.4 :lol

I'd love to do an advanced and all-around numbers game with some of those other 20ppg guys and compare to Pippen that year, who was first team all-defense and 2nd in DPOY voting. But I know that'd be a waste of time.

But my guess is that Glen Rice, Vin Baker, Sean Elliot, etc wouldn't um...wouldn't really be there.

He found a new angle now which is that individual defense is not important because you can always surround offensive stars with defenders. :lol

[ShawkFactory]

He found a new angle now which is that individual defense is not important because you can always surround offensive stars with defenders. :lol

I think he's also managed to pass it off as "fact" (while obviously convincing no one) that Pippen's contributions defensively don't matter because the Cavs had a better regular season team defense :lol

[tpols]

Lunacy.

How many of those guys mentioned peaked at 1st team All nba and all defense in the same season one time, let alone the several times Scottie pulled it off.


I don't think you get it bro.

That's exactly what the point is. Pippen won those awards over guys and then proceeded to get outplayed by a handful of them H2H in the playoffs. I bet he got crazy All NBA teams and other accolades in the late 90s when he was playing like trash in the playoffs.

Do you want us to pull the numbers for say... Kemp vs Pippen? It was a landslide in the 1996 Finals. But Pippen won all the awards over Kemp.

That's the point. Unjustified media accolades.




Go back and see how many shots a game the guys you listed took a game in comparison to Pippen.


I don't think you're quite aware that Scottie was shooting in like the 40s %TS in a bunch of his playoff runs and series on low volume to boot. Suggesting he should've got more shots when he was already producing offensively @ a very low efficiency is not only crazy, but totally asinine logic.

[SouBeachTalents]

I don't think you get it bro.

That's exactly what the point is. Pippen won those awards over guys and then proceeded to get outplayed by a handful of them H2H in the playoffs. I bet he got crazy All NBA teams and other accolades in the late 90s when he was playing like trash in the playoffs.

Do you want us to pull the numbers for say... Kemp vs Pippen? It was a landslide in the 1996 Finals. But Pippen won all the awards over Kemp.

That's the point. Unjustified media accolades.





I don't think you're quite aware that Scottie was shooting in like the 40s %TS in a bunch of his playoff runs and series on low volume to boot. Suggesting he should've got more shots when he was already producing offensively @ a very low efficiency is not only crazy, but totally asinine logic.
Nah, Pippen was outplaying the opposing teams 2nd option the vast majority of the time, he outscored them in 19 of their 24 series during the championship years, that's not even factoring in his GOAT defense or all around game.

Pippen didn't have a single title run shooting under 51%TS, and was often 55%TS or better, so you straight up pulled that fact out of your ass :lol

You're really trying to post like 3ball cherrypicking one series like that was the norm and blatantly making shit up.

[3ba11]

If one guy has 10 APG and the team averages 15 (low-assist team), then this APG shouldn't be an asset to your PER - it should be a detriment if you're "hogging" the assists just like "hogging" the shots and yielding low efficiency is punished - low team assists should be punished the same way low efficiency is.



And Pippen was at 19.4 :lol

I'd love to do an advanced and all-around numbers game with some of those other 20ppg guys and compare to Pippen that year, who was first team all-defense and 2nd in DPOY voting. But I know that'd be a waste of time.

But my guess is that Glen Rice, Vin Baker, Sean Elliot, etc wouldn't um...wouldn't really be there.


Chemistry and low levels of defensive attention will skyrocket a player's efficiency, so the historical timeline shows massive inflation of Pippen's advanced numbers during his time in the triangle and facing zero defensive attention alongside MJ, or while he was viewed as "just a dunker" on the scouting report (low peak ability, aka system player).

Yet despite all these advantages for his efficiency (chemistry and zero defensive attention or scouting), his advanced numbers are still quite trashable... lol.. From a PER and WS/48 standpoint, he never fared that great compared to any forward that wasn't a role player.. And BPM is a team-based stat, but Pippen is still lower than Kyrie, Wade or AD - his BPM was always inflated compared to other wings at the time who weren't in such an ideal efficiency-boosting scenario that Pippen was in (triangle chemistry and zero defensive attention or scouting).

Outside of the coddling chemistry system and without MJ to attract all the defensive attention, Pippen was worse than Jeff Green outside the triangle - this is a historical fact.. It's actually the funniest thing that Houston absolutely hated this guy if you read some stories about Pippen's time there - they were literally racking their brains to find a play that he could finish efficiently.. here (https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-15-2022/7D0vE4.gif).

Finally, we know that individual defense is overrated, since AD could've played DPOY defense in the 2020 Finals, yet that wouldn't be nearly enough if he was only getting 19 on 42% on offense.. There are simply many ways to have top defenses, which is why the Bulls actually improved their team defense each time they lost a good defender in 94' (no MJ), 95' (no Horace), and 98' (no Pippen for first 35 games when Bulls had #1 defense).

[3ba11]

Nah, Pippen was outplaying the opposing teams 2nd option the vast majority of the time, he outscored them in 19 of their 24 series during the championship years, that's not even factoring in his GOAT defense or all around game.

Pippen didn't have a single title run shooting under 51%TS, and was often 55%TS or better, so you straight up pulled that fact out of your ass :lol

You're really trying to post like 3ball cherrypicking one series like that was the norm and blatantly making shit up.



Pippen was outscored by opposing SF's for the majority of series in his career, and only outplayed opposing guards that were underperforming against MJ

And he had worst-ever shooting splits and true shooting on 3 title runs:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/8-07-2024/7U4gUY.gif



Pippen's true shooting was below league-average for every year of his playoff career except 89' and 01-03' (no burden) and also 91'.

[tpols]

Pippen shot on 45%, 42%, and 50% TS respectively in the 1993, 1996, and 1998 Finals while scoring on low star volume. While shooting 44% TS bombing out the playoffs with the Rockets in 1999 and of course before 1991 being a playoff disaster. Then there was the 1994 clutch debacle with Kukoc, and one of the biggest Game 7 chokejobs ever in the 2000 WCFs.

These are just facts.

Ìf Scottie was properly rated as a top 50-75 GOAT nobody would have a problem with his ranking, but the fact of the matter is the biggest media outlets rate him way ahead of all the aforementioned players and also guys like Pat Ewing, Kawhi, Clyde, Stockton, Kidd, Bill Walton, Reggie, Ray etc. and thats not even mentioning all the guys like Shremph, Kemp, and X-man types who get destroyed in these rankings despite outplaying Pippen H2H in the playoffs.

He's not total trash like some make him out to be mostly because of elite defense but the offense was mid @ best.

And MJ would've easily won with guys Pippen is ranked way above like Ewing, Clyde, or Reggie and many others.

[ShawkFactory]

Pippen shot on 45%, 42%, and 50% TS respectively in the 1993, 1996, and 1998 Finals while scoring on low star volume. While shooting 44% TS bombing out the playoffs with the Rockets in 1999 and of course before 1991 being a playoff disaster. Then there was the 1994 clutch debacle with Kukoc, and one of the biggest Game 7 chokejobs ever in the 2000 WCFs.

These are just facts.

Ìf Scottie was properly rated as a top 50-75 GOAT nobody would have a problem with his ranking, but the fact of the matter is the biggest media outlets rate him way ahead of all the aforementioned players and also guys like Pat Ewing, Kawhi, Clyde, Stockton, Kidd, Bill Walton, Reggie, Ray etc. and thats not even mentioning all the guys like Shremph, Kemp, and X-man types who get destroyed in these rankings despite outplaying Pippen H2H in the playoffs.

He's not total trash like some make him out to be mostly because of elite defense but the offense was mid @ best.

And MJ would've easily won with guys Pippen is ranked way above like Ewing, Clyde, or Reggie and many others.

There's a reason those guys aren't mentioned. Because it's silly.

Understand why some people might scoff at someone comparing 2 players and what they were capable of in their careers based on literally one or two six game samples. AND basing those samples purely on small scoring differences and not understanding how they affected the games.

Think about it like you would if you were actually watching the games. 30 years from now a troll could try to convince you that Kyrie outplayed Jrue in these past finals. And using 3balls (and I guess now, yours?) stances on the matter, no one else your eyes would have an argument. But you and I both know that Jrue got the better of him, and from someone who constantly likes to talk about layers to shit, you surprisingly ignore them quite a lot.

[tpols]

It's not a small sample size when there are tons of examples.

Kyrie Irving isnt even ranked in the top 75 players of all time by ESPN so I'm not sure what your point is there. Guys like Dame, Westbrook, and Melo are ranked way higher than Kyrie despite never doing as much in the playoffs as he did.

That actually reinforces the point of bogus media accolades vs actual impact and how they lead to improper rankings of players.

[ShawkFactory]

It's not a small sample size when there are tons of examples.

Kyrie Irving is even ranked in the top 75 players of all time by ESPN so I'm not sure what your point is there. Guys like Dame, Westbrook, and Melo are ranked way higher than Kyrie despite never doing as much in the playoffs as he did.

That actually reinforces the point of bogus media accolades vs actual impact.

There are like 5...

My point there is that analyzing things the way you are analyzing them is dumb. The arguments being used in this thread by 3ball and yourself would tell us that PJ Washington outplayed Kyrie against OKC. It's just not an honest or representative argument to make.

ESPECIALLY since I know you didn't watch any of these series happen. But you watched Dallas/OKC and can probably say why Kyrie was the better player despite y'alls cherry-picked numbers saying otherwise

[sdot_thadon]

I don't think you get it bro.

That's exactly what the point is. Pippen won those awards over guys and then proceeded to get outplayed by a handful of them H2H in the playoffs. I bet he got crazy All NBA teams and other accolades in the late 90s when he was playing like trash in the playoffs.

Do you want us to pull the numbers for say... Kemp vs Pippen? It was a landslide in the 1996 Finals. But Pippen won all the awards over Kemp.

That's the point. Unjustified media accolades.





I don't think you're quite aware that Scottie was shooting in like the 40s %TS in a bunch of his playoff runs and series on low volume to boot. Suggesting he should've got more shots when he was already producing offensively @ a very low efficiency is not only crazy, but totally asinine logic.

You're just looking at numbers because I gather you weren't coherent enough to know what was going on during the 96 finals. Pippen was lower volume by role. He did all these other things, for the team besides score and was still the 2nd leading scorer.

And with the Kemp comparison? You guys really gotta make uo your minds. One of you say Payton was the sidekick and one of you say Kemp, who by the way took one less shot the entire series than his "1st option" When the scoring load is shared between great players that's what happens. Oh and Kemp was the leading scorer for his team for the Finals. Again show me how many of those guys were 1st team All nba and all defensive even once.

[tpols]

There are like 5...

My point there is that analyzing things the way you are analyzing them is dumb. The arguments being used in this thread by 3ball and yourself would tell us that PJ Washington outplayed Kyrie against OKC. It's just not an honest or representative argument to make.

ESPECIALLY since I know you didn't watch any of these series happen. But you watched Dallas/OKC and can probably say why Kyrie was the better player despite y'alls cherry-picked numbers saying otherwise

No... that's a BS analogy.

Everybody saw Kyrie was getting hard trapped and doubled every time he touched the ball in the OKC series this year.

That wasn't the case with Pippen. Scottie did not get hard doubled or preventative trapped on the perimeter when he was shooting in the 40%s TS. Quite the contrary he was single covered and sagged off of whilst playing with the GOAT MJ who was being doubled and having kitchen sink thrown at him.

So no... the eye test on offense totally goes against what you are saying with regards to that example.

[Kblaze8855]

It's not a small sample size when there are tons of examples.

Kyrie Irving isnt even ranked in the top 75 players of all time by ESPN so I'm not sure what your point is there. Guys like Dame, Westbrook, and Melo are ranked way higher than Kyrie despite never doing as much in the playoffs as he did.

That actually reinforces the point of bogus media accolades vs actual impact and how they lead to improper rankings of players.

it’s funny to me you talk about the actual impact of players using eight seconds worth of missed shots to judge 46 minutes of playtime that the opposing coach and players came out of saying he absolutely destroyed them during.

Some playoff game he had like six points and Jordan had 30 but the whole conversation from players and media after the game was Pippen getting superstar treatment on defense. I think bird might’ve gotten fined talking about what the game would look like if refs would let Derek McKey guard Jordan the way Pippen was shutting down his guys.

I bet he shot 20% barely shooting at all, but he was the entire story. The way fans watch the game these days they wouldn’t understand that.

Just funny in the context of you talking about true impact as
if any of the shit you’re talking about decides that.

[ShawkFactory]

No... that's a BS analogy.

Everybody saw Kyrie was getting hard trapped and doubled every time he touched the ball in the OKC series this year.

That wasn't the case with Pippen. Scottie did not get hard doubled or preventative trapped on the perimeter when he was shooting in the 40%s TS. Quite the contrary he was single covered and sagged off of whilst playing with the GOAT MJ who was being doubled and having kitchen sink thrown at him.

So no... the eye test on offense totally goes against what you are saying with regards to that example.

Your ability to miss the point is astounding sometimes.

It's a BS analogy to you because you understand the context of Kyrie vs Washington, because you just watched series. Does the eye test tell you X-man outplayed Pippen in a series that you didn't watch? No...because you didn't watch it.

The point is not exactly Kyrie/Washington's situation, or anyone else's being what their situation was. It's that you have context in one case and don't in another.

[tpols]

Your analogy made no sense. Kyrie was being hard doubled and Pippen wasn't. Irvings numbers make sense in that context. Pippens don't. It's a poor comparison.

As far as X-man vs Scottie goes, Mcdaniels outscored and out shot him. You would have a point if Pippen was being hard doubled or something but he wasn't.

So the analogy just falls flat on it's face at that point.

And in fact the X-man himself was a huge reason for Scotties poor shooting as he was in his head and roughing him up.

[ShawkFactory]

I’ll explain the point just one more time because you still seem to get it: You have no idea who the better player in the series was and your metrics for trying to determine it are incredibly elementary, applying no context or understanding or how the game of basketball works.

30 years from now kids won’t know shit about who was doubling who. Just like you don’t know anything about how that series went.

[tpols]

You could explain it 1000 times and it still wouldn't make sense.

We all have the tape. Being hard doubled wasn't the reason for Pippens shooting woes. He just wasnt... a great shot maker.

Your analogy was like one of his jumpers. It missed the hoop.

[ShawkFactory]

You just don’t understand the analogy, which is unsurprising :lol

For the 3rd time now…I was not comparing Kyrie/Washington and Pippen/McDaniel’s exact situations. That was not, and never was, the analogy or point I was making.

How about this…

Based on the numbers youve used:

Washington > Kyrie. But…actual basketball analysis is required. Whatever aspect of the game or way the series went may be.

McDaniel > Pippen. AND….actual basketball analysis is required. Again, with whatever part of the game or sway or the series.

You don’t have the ability or care to do it in the second instance. THAT is the point. That using those numbers as a declaration as to who the better or more impactful player was is stupid.

Probably still over your head and you’ll twist it into me saying something I didn’t but that’s as clear as I can possibly be.

[tpols]

Washington > Kyrie. But…actual basketball analysis is required. Whatever aspect of the game or way the series went may be.

McDaniel > Pippen. AND….actual basketball analysis is required. Again, with whatever part of the game or sway or the series.

You don’t have the ability or care to do it in the second instance.



Yes I do.

PJ Washington wasn't being doubled.
Pippen wasn't being doubled.
X-man wasn't being doubled.
Kyrie was being hard doubled.

That's the explanation for their respective offensive outputs in these series. It's embarrassing how hard this has to spelled out for you.



30 years from now kids won’t know shit about who was doubling who. Just like you don’t know anything about how that series went.


Um... yes we do know who was being doubled and who wasn't. This isn't the stone age. We have all the tape on YouTube and NBAtv to prove this context. And this context is all 100% true...

Whether it was watched live or on tape in the future the film can't lie.

[ShawkFactory]

Clearly you’ve caught on to how I’m referring to the respective players’ impact in a series going beyond their PPG and FG%? You’ve objectively stated that someone was outplayed based solely on this. This is the aspect I’ve refuted. Those two numbers can tell us plenty of things, as I’ve eluded to.

30 years from now 99% of kids won’t care to go back and watch full games from a non finals series. 98% probably not even the finals. And they’ll be just as clueless about someone’s actual impact on a game or series.

[ELITEpower23]

That's what happens when you taken 50% of the shots retard :lol

Look at FGA disparity next. Case closed. Thanks.

[3ba11]

.
09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4... #3 team defense
11' JASON TERRY (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/terryja01.html)......... 15.8 PER... 0.100 WS/48... 1.9 VORP... 0.9 BPM... 16/2/4... #8 team defense








Lebron didn't get his "Pippen" so early in his career.







Lebron received 4 players that were better than 1990 Pippen, but he couldn't develop them or win anything with them:




05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)................ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)........ 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html)............... 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'............ 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5



And Lebron already had more defensive help than MJ by virtue of having top 5 defense in 07' without being all-defense himself, and then he added 2 players that were better than 1990 Pippen in 09' and 10'.

So again, Lebron's efficiency became artificially-inflated by reducing his defensive attention (teaming up with 2 other franchise guys) - so his advanced stats like PER, etc are inflated from 2011 onwards.. Of course we see the big dip in 2019 before he artificially-inflated his efficiency again by adding AD (thereby reducing his own defensive attention)

[3ba11]

Clearly you’ve caught on to how I’m referring to the respective players’ impact in a series going beyond their PPG and FG%? You’ve objectively stated that someone was outplayed based solely on this. This is the aspect I’ve refuted. Those two numbers can tell us plenty of things, as I’ve eluded to.

30 years from now 99% of kids won’t care to go back and watch full games from a non finals series. 98% probably not even the finals. And they’ll be just as clueless about someone’s actual impact on a game or series.


Weak or underperforming teammates wouldn't be a problem if Lebron could carry weak help over top teams (win a series vs top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), or defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)... Unfortunately, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, thereby needing all-time scoring help (star help)..

It's a GM's nightmare to find the superstar scoring help that Lebron's brand needs, while also finding all-time spacing help for his stiff-arm game.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ can carry the scoring load against top teams and also shoot over packed paints, so they don't need the scoring or spacing help.. Accordingly, they can win with "normal" organic rosters of 1 franchise player..

[ELITEpower23]

That's what happens when you taken 50% of the shots retard :lol

Look at FGA disparity next. Case closed. Thanks.

OP? Are you terrified of me when you see my name made a post? Do you tremble with fear?

Dude is writing novels and gets SHOOK with I arrive. Speak up now, don't be shy Mr. Stephen King.

[97 bulls]

Weak or underperforming teammates wouldn't be a problem if Lebron could carry weak help over top teams (win a series vs top 5 SRS opponent with weak scoring & efficiency from sidekick), or defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)... Unfortunately, Lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, thereby needing all-time scoring help (star help)..

It's a GM's nightmare to find the superstar scoring help that Lebron's brand needs, while also finding all-time spacing help for his stiff-arm game.. Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry or MJ can carry the scoring load against top teams and also shoot over packed paints, so they don't need the scoring or spacing help.. Accordingly, they can win with "normal" organic rosters of 1 franchise player..

But Jordan had normal scorers prior to the team's he won titles with. Why didn't he get farther?

[3ba11]

But Jordan had normal scorers prior to the team's he won titles with. Why didn't he get farther?


brand of ball..

it affected MJ early on in his career, and I'll use a quick example about lebron to illustrate the issue with young Jordan... here's the example:

we know that lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't win with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams... Similarly, jordan had his own brand of ball issues - he wasn't overly ball-dominant but his shot selection needed better strategy, so his brand of ball suffered just like Lebron's ball-dominance.. This weaker brand hurt his team at high scoring levels.

But Jordan eventually learned how to maintain great brand at high scoring volume, so he could carry the scoring load against top teams, and therefore beat top teams with weak help (beat top 5 SRS team with crap help from pippen like 15.7 on 34%)... and also defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)... otoh, lebron never fixed his brand issues - he's still too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help and guys that can match his scoring for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's.

[sdot_thadon]

brand of ball..

it affected MJ early on in his career, and I'll use a quick example about lebron to illustrate the issue with young Jordan... here's the example:

we know that lebron is too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he can't win with 18 on 38% from Mo Williams... Similarly, jordan had his own brand of ball issues - he wasn't overly ball-dominant but his shot selection needed better strategy, so his brand of ball suffered just like Lebron's ball-dominance.. But Jordan eventually learned how to maintain great brand at high scoring volume, so he could carry the scoring load against top teams, and therefore beat top teams with weak help... and also defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load on championship level)... otoh, lebron never fixed his brand issues - he's still too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help and guys that can match his scoring for entire playoff runs and outplay league MVP's.

Nope, Mj played loser ball and was barely cracking 30 wins with 2 20 ppg scorers by his side. These days you'd cry that's a big 3 lol.

[3ba11]

Nope, Mj played loser ball and was barely cracking 30 wins with 2 20 ppg scorers by his side. These days you'd cry that's a big 3 lol.


Woolridge was a better athlete than Pippen, but he didn't get years to develop with prime jordan like pippen did.. He only got 1 year with rookie MJ.

And Gervin didn't play in the 86' Playoffs and didn't play with MJ

When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won - MJ was unbeatable with 1 all-star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2

[97 bulls]

Woolridge was a better athlete than Pippen, but he didn't get years to develop with prime jordan like pippen did.. He only got 1 year with rookie MJ.

And Gervin didn't play in the 86' Playoffs and didn't play with MJ

When Lebron got "help", he mostly lost, while MJ mostly won - MJ was unbeatable with 1 all-star, while Lebron mostly lost with 2

Guys like Woolridge couldn't grow with Jordan because Jordan didn't want them on the team. Jordan himself said thay Guys like Woolridge and Gervin took his ability to shine away.

[97 bulls]

https://www.youtube.com/live/lbjcxXIRwQI?si=NAqBSl28UuiPaEUe
I'm not sure if you're familiar with FYF Sports Debates on YouTube, but he breaks this down. Jordan himself didn't want Woolridge, Gervin, or Green on his team and they were traded away. The difference between those players and Pippen is that Pippen allowed Jordan to get his points and still win. Unlike the other players listed, Pippen could impact a games at a high level without scoring a bunch of points.

[3ba11]

Jordan never asked for trades - here's the truth from Jerry Krause - he says at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ms1cBZ3YdS8


So again, Woolridge was a better athlete than Pippen, but simply didn't get time to develop chemistry and brand of ball with MJ like Pippen did... Woolridge had 1 year with rookie MJ, while Pippen was given a ridiculous 4 years stink it up and learn the triangle alongside prime Jordan..

[3ba11]

Guys like Woolridge couldn't grow with Jordan because Jordan didn't want them on the team. Jordan himself said thay Guys like Woolridge and Gervin took his ability to shine away.


Jordan carried weak help over top teams - Lebron didn't - Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS team with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, while Jordan did all the time.

Jordan also defeated max defensive attention (carried scoring load on championship level) - Lebron didn't

Lebron can't carry the scoring load against top teams because he's too ball-dominant at carry-job volume to beat top teams, so he needs all-time scoring help like AD or Wade... Otoh, expert jumpshooters like Curry/MJ can get 40 while the ball moves, so they can maintain brand at high scoring levels and beat top teams with weak scoring help.

[97 bulls]

Jordan never asked for trades - here's the truth from Jerry Krause - he says at the end:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ms1cBZ3YdS8


So again, Woolridge was a better athlete than Pippen, but simply didn't get time to develop chemistry and brand of ball with MJ like Pippen did... Woolridge had 1 year with rookie MJ, while Pippen was given a ridiculous 4 years stink it up and learn the triangle alongside prime Jordan..

Were not talking about who was the better athlete. Its about impact/winning In that video you sent, Krause said that Jordan never asked for a player. He never said Jordan didn't ask to get rid of players.

Besides, the quote from the video I sent came from Jordan himself in his book Driven from Within. He didn't want to play with any player that would take the ball out of his hands and steal his shine. Guys like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper etc could contribute in a myriad of ways to be impactful outside of scoring the ball.

[3ba11]

Were not talking about who was the better athlete. Its about impact/winning In that video you sent, Krause said that Jordan never asked for a player. He never said Jordan didn't ask to get rid of players.

Besides, the quote from the video I sent came from Jordan himself in his book Driven from Within. He didn't want to play with any player that would take the ball out of his hands and steal his shine. Guys like Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper etc could contribute in a myriad of ways to be impactful outside of scoring the ball.


Jordan didn't have the ball in his hands... he played off-ball.. so he didn't care about having the ball in his hands.. that's why pippen grew - Pip had the ball in his hands, so he didn't become a nobody spot-up shooter like Hughes, Ingram or Westbrook did alongside Lebron.

Here's Lebron saying his game doesn't change no matter who he plays with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5upPeQIGk&t=03m48s


Now that's a guy that doesn't want the ball to be taken out of his hands, which is why no young players ever grew alongside him - zero young players from single-digit rookies to meaningful producers on his watch, like Pippen/Grant/BJ alongside MJ...

In addition to zero teammate development, Lebron had a bevy of bad fits and teammates cratering alongside him because again - he doesn't adjust his game.. he's 1-dimensional so guys can't fit or grow alongside him.... You guys just don't understand the game and give credit to stories that were written in recent months or years that are literally fake... Klutch crap

[97 bulls]

Jordan didn't have the ball in his hands... he played off-ball.. so he didn't care about having the ball in his hands.. that's why pippen grew - Pip had the ball in his hands, so he didn't become a nobody spot-up shooter like Hughes, Ingram or Westbrook did alongside Lebron.

Here's Lebron saying his game doesn't change no matter who he plays with:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n5upPeQIGk&t=03m48s


Now that's a guy that doesn't want the ball to be taken out of his hands, which is why no young players ever grew alongside him - zero young players from single-digit rookies to meaningful producers on his watch, like Pippen/Grant/BJ alongside MJ...

In addition to zero teammate development, Lebron had a bevy of bad fits and teammates cratering alongside him because again - he doesn't adjust his game.. he's 1-dimensional so guys can't fit or grow alongside him.... You guys just don't understand the game and give credit to stories that were written in recent months or years that are literally fake... Klutch crap

But most of your sources are dated. Like with Pippen. Alot of the assesments are from the late 80s. The ones I use refer to Pippens full body of work.


Again, I take issue with your constant assertion that Jordan scored all those points because he had to. That's simply not true. And if we're being honest, from a chemistry standpoint, it's clear that Jordan couldn't flourish with another ball dominate player like Kobe Bryant. Jordan himself said it. I honestly feel Jordan benefitted more from being with Pippen than Pippen did from being with Jordan.

[3ba11]

Again, I take issue with your constant assertion that Jordan scored all those points because he had to.





It's mathematical fact that all of Jordan's points were needed because all teammates played to capacity alongside him, or near capacity - this means all of Jordan's points were needed..

The 93' Finals are a great example - both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg, so all of Jordan's 41 was needed because Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting and couldn't handle additional load.. Pippen's worst-ever efficiency and below average true shooting confirms that he couldn't handle additional load... His true shooting was below league-average in the playoffs every single year except 89 and 01-03' (no burden) and 91'.

Pippen also had worst-ever shooting splits on the 96' and 98 runs, while averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat - he averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals but you think he deserved MORE shots?... absurd

[tpols]

it’s funny to me you talk about the actual impact of players using eight seconds worth of missed shots to judge 46 minutes of playtime that the opposing coach and players came out of saying he absolutely destroyed them during.

Some playoff game he had like six points and Jordan had 30 but the whole conversation from players and media after the game was Pippen getting superstar treatment on defense. I think bird might’ve gotten fined talking about what the game would look like if refs would let Derek McKey guard Jordan the way Pippen was shutting down his guys.

I bet he shot 20% barely shooting at all, but he was the entire story. The way fans watch the game these days they wouldn’t understand that.

Just funny in the context of you talking about true impact as
if any of the shit you’re talking about decides that.


What so funny my guy?

See what Kblaze types don't understand is there's a difference between sitting on the couch with your buddies in the 90s, drinking beer and eating ribs, mindlessly listening to media reporters glaze pippen or whoever...

And hardcore basketball historians like myself and 3ball who have combed over every detail with a fine comb both analytically and contextually to form an unbiased fact laden concrete case.

It's like how somebody today could have a PHd in History studying the Greeks, or Roman's, or Egyptians... they didn't live in that time period, yet they are world renowned experts on the topics due to the man hours they put in to do the research.

So before you step? You better step correct. Motherf*cker.

[97 bulls]

It's mathematical fact that all of Jordan's points were needed because all teammates played to capacity alongside him, or near capacity - this means all of Jordan's points were needed..

The 93' Finals are a great example - both the Bulls and Suns averaged exactly 106.7 ppg, so all of Jordan's 41 was needed because Pippen shot 46.9 true shooting and couldn't handle additional load.. Pippen's worst-ever efficiency and below average true shooting confirms that he couldn't handle additional load... His true shooting was below league-average in the playoffs every single year except 89 and 01-03' (no burden) and 91'.

Pippen also had worst-ever shooting splits on the 96' and 98 runs, while averaging 17 on 41% for the entire 2nd three-peat - he averaged 15.7 on 34% in the 96' Finals but you think he deserved MORE shots?... absurd

That's not how it works. If Jordan's takes less of the shots, then someone else can. In 94, the Bulls actually scored more points than the Knicks. Too bad their replacement for Jordan was Pete Myers.

Pippen could effect the game in a bunch of different ways bro. 98 is a perfect example. Rodmans rebounding is the reason the Bulls won in 96. Pippen had a better ECF in 93 than Jordan did even though Jordan scored more points.

[3ba11]

.
92' Pippen..... 21.0 and 7.0 apg

94' Pippen..... 22.0 and 5.6 apg




If Jordan's takes less of the shots, then someone else can.


Jordan took 0 shots in 1994, yet Pippen averaged less ppg + apg than his highs alongside MJ.

So he played to capacity alongside MJ, which means all MJ's scoring was needed... Ditto for the rest of the team, who also played near career highs (near capacity) alongside Jordan.

Otoh, Lebron craters guys like Love, Bosh, and Hughes far below their career highs, so if Lebron shot less, they actually would score a lot more... But if Jordan shoots less, no one scores more because they're already at capacity

hope that helps

[97 bulls]

.
92' Pippen..... 21.0 and 7.0 apg

94' Pippen..... 22.0 and 5.6 apg






Jordan took 0 shots in 1994, yet Pippen averaged less ppg + apg than his highs alongside MJ.

So he played to capacity alongside MJ, which means all MJ's scoring was needed... Ditto for the rest of the team, who also played near career highs (near capacity) alongside Jordan.

Otoh, Lebron craters guys like Love, Bosh, and Hughes far below their career highs, so if Lebron shot less, they actually would score a lot more... But if Jordan shoots less, no one scores more because they're already at capacity

hope that helps

His points went up from 19 the previous year to 22. And unlike Jordan, Pippen had to be the Bulls defensive anchor, and run the offense as well. So he couldn't expend as much energy scoring the ball.

[Im Still Ballin]

There's more to basketball than on-ball scoring. And there's more to offense than scoring. Basketball impact comes from a variety of sources: defense, rebounding, passing, etc... Let's not lose sleep over a few percentage points! Pippen was much like KG and Kidd; his value had less to do with scoring and more with everything else.

[3ba11]

There's more to basketball than on-ball scoring. And there's more to offense than scoring. Basketball impact comes from a variety of sources: defense, rebounding, passing, etc... Let's not lose sleep over a few percentage points! Pippen was much like KG and Kidd; his value had less to do with scoring and more with everything else.


No amount of defense could stop AD from getting traded and completely crapped on if he averaged 19 on 42% in the 2020 Finals.. The Lakers would've lost easily... If Lebron somehow won with 19 on 42% from AD, it would've been called a 1-man team.... Well Jordan won 6 Finals like that as a 1-man team - that's why he's goat.

2nd scoring options must score and Pippen was bad at it, so he commanded no defensive attention and forced MJ to defeat max defensive attention (carry scoring load). - it's the hardest way to win.

Btw, Jordan was the passing leader of the bulls by leading the assists for 6 of 9 playoff runs, 3 title runs, and leading in assist percentage for 91-93' and 96-98' Playoffs - he assisted on the most bulls buckets during the title years... And he tied or led the dpoy voting over Pippen for 7 of 9 years

[Im Still Ballin]

Winning teams come in a variety of formats. Some are more slanted to defense or offense while others are relatively balanced. And a high-level NBA offense can be achieved through various means; it can look any number of ways. Terms like "first option" and "second option" are vague and don't tell us much about a player's value to their team let alone just on offense.

[ILLsmak]

Winning teams come in a variety of formats. Some are more slanted to defense or offense while others are relatively balanced. And a high-level NBA offense can be achieved through various means; it can look any number of ways. Terms like "first option" and "second option" are vague and don't tell us much about a player's value to their team let alone just on offense.

I'm excited to see Edey in the NBA.

-Smak

[ELITEpower23]

That's what happens when you taken 50% of the shots retard :lol

Look at FGA disparity next. Case closed. Thanks.