Jordan and Pippen Plus Minus Numbers in 1991/1993/1996

[dankok8]

It's based on Squared2020's extensive logging of regular seasons before the PBP era and the lineup data he posted. Some of you may recognize the format because the original post of this kind was done by colts18 here and it had a sample of 157 games.

https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2323051

The sample we have now is 214/246 (87.0%) Bulls games in 1991, 1993 and 1996. Thus the update.

https://i.postimg.cc/pTV56J8R/Jordan-and-Pippen-Plus-Minus-Updated.png

ON numbers have come down slightly but are still really high. Jordan ON Pippen OFF lineups look even stronger. The presence of Grant/Rodman still doesn't seem to have a positive impact.

Once all games are eventually logged at some point, I fully expect the ON values for Jordan and Pippen to be at least a bit higher (say by +1) because the Bulls average margin of victory (MOV) is very high in the remaining games. In 1991, there are 25 unsampled games where the Bulls went 24-1 (15.7 MOV). In 1993, there are 3 unsampled games where the Bulls went 3-0 (+21.3 MOV). In 1996, there are 4 unsampled games where the Bulls went 3-1 (+8.0 MOV). All together in the 32 unsampled games, the Bulls went 30-2 (+15.3 MOV).

[Im Still Ballin]

MJ + Pippen is the magic sauce! '90s Curry + Dray?

[tpols]

The biggest thing that stands out to me is MJ + Pippen + Rodman / Grant have the same ORTG and very similar net differential to MJ minus Pippen + Rodman / Grant.

Based on these numbers, the Bulls offense stayed the same with or without Pippen and the defense mildly improved by 2 points when he was on the court.

[gengiskhan]

The biggest thing that stands out to me is MJ + Pippen + Rodman / Grant have the same ORTG and very similar net differential to MJ minus Pippen + Rodman / Grant.

Based on these numbers, the Bulls offense stayed the same with or without Pippen and the defense mildly improved by 2 points when he was on the court.

All I see is what MJ said, "meanwhile I got 21 feet of Cr@p to deal with" (cartwright, perdue, longly)

Not even 3rd Tier Big Man like Daugherty, Ric Smits, Nance or Lambeer. That front court should've never ever 3peated let alone repeat 3peat.

Escaping every series they should've lost to. 1992, 1993, 1996 NYK; 1996, 1997 HEAT; 1998 Pacers. just because of garbage front court.

Only 1995 MAGIC put 'em in their place in 6 games. Then they escaped again vs 1996 MAGIC. Horace or no Horace, 1996 Shaq shouldve had their number.

[tpols]

All I see is what MJ said, "meanwhile I got 21 feet of Cr@p to deal with" (cartwright, perdue, longly)

Not even 3rd Tier Big Man like Daugherty, Ric Smits, Nance or Lambeer. That front court should've never ever 3peated let alone repeat 3peat.

Escaping every series they should've lost to. 1992, 1993, 1996 NYK; 1996, 1997 HEAT; 1998 Pacers. just because of garbage front court.

Only 1995 MAGIC put 'em in their place in 6 games. Then they escaped again vs 1996 MAGIC. Horace or no Horace, 1996 Shaq shouldve had their number.

The Bulls center rotation was trash for sure, but it's interesting the offense didn't improve with Pippen. And these are regular season numbers. Pippen was terrible in the 1993 and 1996 playoffs on offense. I'm curious as to what the numbers there would be.

[Im Still Ballin]

Damn.


MJ + Pippen: 113.1 ORtg; 100.1 DRtg; 13.0 Net
No MJ + Pippen: 97.1 ORtg; 101.7 DRtg; -4.6 Net

Diff: +16.0 ORtg; -1.6 DRtg; +17.6 Net


MJ + Pippen + No Grant or Rodman: 114.9 ORtg; 99.3 DRtg; 15.7 Net
No MJ + Pippen: 97.1 ORtg; 101.7 DRtg; -4.6 Net

Diff: +17.8 ORtg; -2.4 DRtg; +20.2 Net

[90sgoat]

The biggest thing that stands out to me is MJ + Pippen + Rodman / Grant have the same ORTG and very similar net differential to MJ minus Pippen + Rodman / Grant.

Based on these numbers, the Bulls offense stayed the same with or without Pippen and the defense mildly improved by 2 points when he was on the court.

Makes sense.

MJ could definitely win games by himself on offense. Everyone who watched the games know that. Pippen wasn't necessary for the offense to be GOAT. Pippen wasn't a good half court offensive player, but he was elite in the open court.

Pippen was very important on defense though. The same with Grant/Rodman, MJ needed a good power forward, which isn't strange, considering the 90s were the decade of power forwards.

[iamgine]

Not sure what this means cause building a team around someone means your team really need their skillset. You put Devin Booker instead of MJ he might have similar on-off numbers.

I'd expect players like Curry, Dirk and Lebron to have similar on-off numbers in some years.

[dankok8]

All I see is what MJ said, "meanwhile I got 21 feet of Cr@p to deal with" (cartwright, perdue, longly)

Not even 3rd Tier Big Man like Daugherty, Ric Smits, Nance or Lambeer. That front court should've never ever 3peated let alone repeat 3peat.

Escaping every series they should've lost to. 1992, 1993, 1996 NYK; 1996, 1997 HEAT; 1998 Pacers. just because of garbage front court.

Only 1995 MAGIC put 'em in their place in 6 games. Then they escaped again vs 1996 MAGIC. Horace or no Horace, 1996 Shaq shouldve had their number.

Shaq did not have an easy time playing the Bulls. While he could usually overpower Longley/Rodman/Wennington one on one, the Bulls' perimeter guys were so quick collapsing on him. They forced him into a ton of turnovers and blew up a lot of plays in the 1996 series with the quick double teams.

[dankok8]

The Bulls center rotation was trash for sure, but it's interesting the offense didn't improve with Pippen. And these are regular season numbers. Pippen was terrible in the 1993 and 1996 playoffs on offense. I'm curious as to what the numbers there would be.

Unfortunately we don't have playoff lineup data. I strongly suspect the 1991 and 1996 Bulls are absolutely bonkers in the playoffs though ala 2017 Warriors.

Jordan is +15.0 ON in the 1991 playoffs and +15.2 ON in the 1996 playoffs. He and Pippen together are probably +18 or something nasty like that.

[dankok8]

Here is the season by season breakdown.

https://i.postimg.cc/SsHkYJ3F/1991-Bulls-Lineups-57-Games.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/s2BLQwrx/1993-Bulls-Lineups-79-Games.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/VL6Wk51L/1996-Bulls-Lineups-78-Games.jpg

[Im Still Ballin]

Those individual season numbers are crazy. Jordan and Pippen synergized together so well. '90s Steph and Dray.

[dankok8]

Thanks to Squared2020's monumental work, we now have about half of Michael Jordan's regular season games from 1985-1996 logged. For his entire career, it's about two thirds of the games that are now logged. Here is the data.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKnwcgzJ/Michael-Jordan-Career-Regular-Season-Plus-Minus.jpg

[Im Still Ballin]

Thanks to Squared2020's monumental work, we now have about half of Michael Jordan's regular season games from 1985-1996 logged. For his entire career, it's about two thirds of the games that are now logged. Here is the data.

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKnwcgzJ/Michael-Jordan-Career-Regular-Season-Plus-Minus.jpg

The GOAT!

:bowdown:

I wonder what Bill Russell's numbers would look like...

[Kblaze8855]

The Bulls center rotation was trash for sure, but it's interesting the offense didn't improve with Pippen. And these are regular season numbers. Pippen was terrible in the 1993 and 1996 playoffs on offense. I'm curious as to what the numbers there would be.

in 93 he outscored the other teams second leading scorer in all four series and out scored everyone on Cleveland. And that’s while not being someone necessarily there to score. And I’m not really judging the total offensive contribution of a guy playing 46 minutes and shooting 41% as opposed to 47% because of a single miss either. Not when he’s also got 9 assists in a pre drive and kick league where he’s actively calling sets to get other guys going to keep them mentally engaged on both ends.

It’s really just another example of people not really knowing how basketball was played before they watched it.

But that horse was long beat to death.

[Kblaze8855]

The Bulls center rotation was trash for sure, but it's interesting the offense didn't improve with Pippen. And these are regular season numbers. Pippen was terrible in the 1993 and 1996 playoffs on offense. I'm curious as to what the numbers there would be.

in 93 he outscored the other teams second leading scorer in all four series and out scored everyone on Cleveland. And that’s while not being someone necessarily there to score. And I’m not really judging the total offensive contribution of a guy playing 46 minutes and shooting 41% as opposed to 47% because of a single miss either. Not when he’s also got 9 assists in a pre drive and kick league where he’s actively calling sets to get other guys going to keep them mentally engaged on both ends.

It’s really just another example of people not really knowing how basketball was played before they watched it.

But that horse was long beat to death.