All-time rankings need to be TIERED - TOP 25

[StrongLurk]

All-time Tiered rankings (none of the names are in order, just the same general tier of player in my opinion)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem, Bill Russell
3. Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Kevin Durant
5. Jokic, Giannis, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Dirk, Mikan

Tier rankings (1980-2024, making an exception for Kareem)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem
3. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Kevin Durant, Jokic, Giannis
5. KG, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, Karl Malone
6. Kawhi, James Harden, Allen Iverson, Russell Westbrook, Scottie Pippen

Obviously it gets harder to rank the further down you go on the tier list. Even for me, I am open to other opinions for tier 5/6

[Phoenix]

All-time Tiered rankings (none of the names are in order, just the same general tier of player in my opinion)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem, Bill Russell
3. Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Kevin Durant
5. Jokic, Giannis, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Dirk, Mikan

Tier rankings (1980-2024, making an exception for Kareem)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem
3. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Kevin Durant, Jokic, Giannis
5. KG, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, Karl Malone
6. Kawhi, James Harden, Allen Iverson, Russell Westbrook, Scottie Pippen

Obviously it gets harder to rank the further down you go on the tier list. Even for me, I am open to other opinions for tier 5/6

Players 15-25 is much harder to rank or list than 1-10/15. That looks about right, though I would put Durant in 5. I don't think his career outside of the Warriors is Tier 4 level based on how you've got it set up. He's a Tier 1/2 level talent but his career is like Tier 5 if you remove going to the Warriors....and any number of players win under those conditions. That was proven when GS squeezed one final title out in 2022 with Wiggins at the 3. If KD had won in 2021 that trumps anything he did in 2017 or 2018, like 2022 trumps anything Curry did in 2015 or 2017/18 next to KD. The Warriors were written off by 2022 as legit contenders. It's not that KD isn't a top 10 level player as far as good he actually is, its just that the circumstances of how he directed his career doesn't necessarily make me think he warrants being in a class above a D Wade or Dirk type.

[StrongLurk]

Players 15-25 is much harder to rank or list than 1-10/15. That looks about right, though I would put Durant in 5. I don't think his career outside of the Warriors is Tier 4 level based on how you've got it set up. He's a Tier 1/2 level talent but his career is like Tier 5 if you remove going to the Warriors....and any number of players win under those conditions. That was proven when GS squeezed one final title out in 2022 with Wiggins at the 3. If KD had won in 2021 that trumps anything he did in 2017 or 2018, like 2022 trumps anything Curry did in 2015 or 2017/18 next to KD. The Warriors were written off by 2022 as legit contenders. It's not that KD isn't a top 10 level player as far as good he actually is, its just that the circumstances of how he directed his career doesn't necessarily make me think he warrants being in a class above a D Wade or Dirk type.

Did Andrew Wiggins win two FMVP and was the best player in the playoffs/finals for the Warriors? Was Andrew Wiggins about to win a 3rd FMVP in a row (something only peak MJ/peak Shaq did) before blowing out his achilles? KD didn't just put up 20ppg and coast to a title, he was absurdly dominant on the Warrior.

Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread.

I agree 15-25 is difficult, especially for the first half of my OP where we include 60s/70's players.

I think we are getting to the point in basketball culture where most people just write off those decades/anything before Magic, Bird, and the 3-point line.

[Phoenix]

Did Andrew Wiggins win two FMVP and was the best player in the playoffs/finals for the Warriors? Was Andrew Wiggins about to win a 3rd FMVP in a row (something only peak MJ/peak Shaq did) before blowing out his achilles? KD didn't just put up 20ppg and coast to a title, he was absurdly dominant on the Warrior.

Anyways, I don't want to derail this thread.

I agree 15-25 is difficult, especially for the first half of my OP where we include 60s/70's players.

I think we are getting to the point in basketball culture where most people just write off those decades/anything before Magic, Bird, and the 3-point line.

I didn't say that. The point is KD was overkill on the Warriors and he has no history of chips outside the context of 2017 and 2018. Pretty easy to figure out my angle when it comes to that. He's a scoring machine and a 1 time MVP outside that. We have 17 years to see what KD was, has been, and will be. He's top 10 talent, top 20ish career. Why is in a tier over D-Wade who won without Lebron with a declining Shaq? Why is Wade on tier below him?

Steph was still the engine of that team and it was demonstrated when KD was out, they didn't skip a beat. With KD he's moreso an isolation guy so he doesn't lift the tides like Stephs offball gravity did. Klay and Dray aren't what they were next to KD, especially Dray.

The NBA is over 75 years old. I agree that we have had at least 4 different ERAs, each with a 'GOAT; and figuring who does what in other eras, who carries over, who doesn't, is increasingly pointless.

[RRR3]

MJ being in his own tier is bullshit



WE DONE WITH THE 90s

[Carbine]

It just donned on me that I have a hard time ranking Durant over Jokic as it stands right now. At the very least I have a problem with putting Jokic in a tier below Durant. They would have to be in the same tier.

Durant had more longevity but as far as overall resume goes it's pretty even overall and in my eyes Jokic is just a better player and more conductive to winning.

[Phoenix]

It just donned on me that I have a hard time ranking Durant over Jokic as it stands right now. At the very least I have a problem with putting Jokic in a tier below Durant. They would have to be in the same tier.

Durant had more longevity but as far as overall resume goes it's pretty even overall and in my eyes Jokic is just a better player and more conductive to winning.

Exactly. I wouldn't. Joker is really Tier 3, top 15 at this point, and still going. And his game will clearly age as its not built on athleticism. He has more MVPs and possible titles in his future.

[StrongLurk]

It just donned on me that I have a hard time ranking Durant over Jokic as it stands right now. At the very least I have a problem with putting Jokic in a tier below Durant. They would have to be in the same tier.

Durant had more longevity but as far as overall resume goes it's pretty even overall and in my eyes Jokic is just a better player and more conductive to winning.

Im glad you pointed this out. I actually agree Jokic is already ahead of a LOT of all-time greats. I held back my ranking a little just to factor in the fact that longevity matters when including the guys from the 60's/70's. They already finished their careers.

If you look in my second tier-list, Jokic is indeed on the same tier as KD.

[Phoenix]

Joker led the Olympics in just about everything, right? Yeah....one of the best players ever we're watching right now, in NBA or Int'l competition.

[iamgine]

All-time Tiered rankings (none of the names are in order, just the same general tier of player in my opinion)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem, Bill Russell
3. Wilt, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson, Kevin Durant
5. Jokic, Giannis, Kevin Garnett, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Dirk, Mikan

Tier rankings (1980-2024, making an exception for Kareem)

1. MJ
2. Lebron, Kareem
3. Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Magic, Bird
4. Hakeem, Moses Malone, Curry, Kevin Durant, Jokic, Giannis
5. KG, Charles Barkley, Dwyane Wade, Dirk, David Robinson, Karl Malone
6. Kawhi, James Harden, Allen Iverson, Russell Westbrook, Scottie Pippen

Obviously it gets harder to rank the further down you go on the tier list. Even for me, I am open to other opinions for tier 5/6

Not sure what tiering does. There's still no objective criteria determining this.

[StrongLurk]

Not sure what tiering does. There's still no objective criteria determining this.

Trying to exactly state who the 7th best player or the 18th best player of all time is even worse, it's just way too specific.

Tiers eases that burden a little bit. I think a good start for criteria is measuring MVPs/FMVPs, then looking at all-nba selections.

[Carbine]

I'd like to hear why Bill Russell and Wilt would be in different tiers as well. They were THE two guys of their era. They were a lot closer than Lebron and Curry for example.

It's fine if you rank Bill at the top of whatever tier you put him in but Wilt has to be in the same tier I think.

[StrongLurk]

I'd like to hear why Bill Russell and Wilt would be in different tiers as well. They were THE two guys of their era. They were a lot closer than Lebron and Curry for example.

It's fine if you rank Bill at the top of whatever tier you put him in but Wilt has to be in the same tier I think.

I'm okay with moving Bill a tier down to be with Wilt.

They are the hardest players to rank all time in my opinion due to the extreme nature of their stats/accolades and the era itself.

[dankok8]

I agree with tiered rankings and have said so in the past.

[90sgoat]

We done with the rankings!

Basketball needs to stop with these idiotic GOAT discussions which are really just a way for millennials to cope with the fact they were too young to see MJ play.

There was some dumbass commentating the Olympics who said he didn't do the GOAT thing, but would talk about "best of a generation" and he called that Lebron and I'm more ok with that.

Lebron was the best or second best of his generation of Millennials and live it at that. Kobe was a Xentennial and clearly the best of that generation, maybe you want to include Tim Duncan in that generation. With Gen X we have Shaq, Kidd, Hill, Webber, all those guys, it's clearly Shaq that's the best of those. Then the Boomers are Magic, Bird, those guys. Jerry West, Wilt, Russel, they are The Greatest Generation.

[John8204]

I agree with tiering...I disagree with having one player at tier one. Basketball is generational and positional if you are going to do tiers it should start with the best player from each generation and each position.

Tier 1 - MJ (SG), Lebron(PF), Wilt(C), Bird (SF), Kareem (C), Magic (PG), Russell (C), Mikan (C)
Tier 2 - Kobe (SG), Oscar (PG), West (SG), Duncan (PF), Moses (C), Hakeem (C), Curry (PG), Dr J (SF)
Tier 3 - Dirk (PF), Stockton (PG), Hondo (SF), Baylor (SF), Shaq (C), Pettit (PF), KG (PF), Barkley (PF), Barry(SF)
Tier 4 - Frazier (PG), Giannis (PF), Gervin (SG), Durant (SF), Kidd (PG), Robinson (C), Iverson (SG)
Tier 5 - Jokic (C), Leonard (SF), Archibald (PG), CPIII(PG), K. Malone (PF) Wade (SG). Luka (PG), Thomas (PG)
Tier 6 - Maravich (SG), Leonard (SF), Arizin (SF), Pippen (SF), Cousey(PG), Miller (SG), Mchale (PF),

And that gives you your roughly top ten per position
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Jokic
PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton, Frazier, Kidd, Archibald, CPIII, Isiah, Cousy
SG - MJ, Kobe, West, Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Luka, Maravich,
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Baylor, Hondo, Barry, Giannis, Durant, Arizin, Pippen

[Carbine]

That's a pretty unpopular way to do it. Any "way" of doing something that spits out Iverson above Jokic is something that should never be used again

[tpols]

That's a pretty unpopular way to do it. Any "way" of doing something that spits out Iverson above Jokic is something that should never be used again

:roll:

Big facts.

[StrongLurk]

I agree with tiering...I disagree with having one player at tier one. Basketball is generational and positional if you are going to do tiers it should start with the best player from each generation and each position.

Tier 1 - MJ (SG), Lebron(PF), Wilt(C), Bird (SF), Kareem (C), Magic (PG), Russell (C), Mikan (C)
Tier 2 - Kobe (SG), Oscar (PG), West (SG), Duncan (PF), Moses (C), Hakeem (C), Curry (PG), Dr J (SF)
Tier 3 - Dirk (PF), Stockton (PG), Hondo (SF), Baylor (SF), Shaq (C), Pettit (PF), KG (PF), Barkley (PF), Barry(SF)
Tier 4 - Frazier (PG), Giannis (PF), Gervin (SG), Durant (SF), Kidd (PG), Robinson (C), Iverson (SG)
Tier 5 - Jokic (C), Leonard (SF), Archibald (PG), CPIII(PG), K. Malone (PF) Wade (SG). Luka (PG), Thomas (PG)
Tier 6 - Maravich (SG), Leonard (SF), Arizin (SF), Pippen (SF), Cousey(PG), Miller (SG), Mchale (PF),

And that gives you your roughly top ten per position
C - Wilt, KAJ, Bill, Mikan, Moses, Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Jokic
PG - Magic, Oscar, Curry, Stockton, Frazier, Kidd, Archibald, CPIII, Isiah, Cousy
SG - MJ, Kobe, West, Gervin, Iverson, Wade, Luka, Maravich,
PF - Lebron, Duncan, Dirk, Pettit, KG, Barkley, Malone, McHale
SF - Bird, Dr. J, Baylor, Hondo, Barry, Giannis, Durant, Arizin, Pippen

Nah disagree with this.

[Stephonit]

If your methodology is dumb, using tiers doesn't help.

[SATAN]

MJ being in his own tier is bullshit





He deliberately tries to troll both fan bases while often appearing serious.

[Im Still Ballin]

In my opinion, Durant is comparable to the Karl Malone, Dwyane Wade, Dirk Nowitzki, and Charles Barkley guys. But it's all subjective anyway. I just can't give him the boost over those guys because of the GSW stint.

I agree with the general sentiments about KD on page one—good point about his talent versus his career. I've always said he never reached his full potential. Never really embraced his big-man potential with that 7'5" wingspan and 9'2.5" standing reach.

[StrongLurk]

MJ being in his own tier is bullshit



WE DONE WITH THE 90s

Is it really though?

[sdot_thadon]

Tiers are a good way to generalize or not disrespect other greats in your rankings. The hard thing for most is to keep going past top 10. Because at some point you're going to make a choice that breaks your principles from your top 10. Once you start contradictory ranking you might as well ball it up and start over. For the record though some years back I put Lebron Kareem and Mj in the top tier together, meaning for me I could see a strong case for each to be the goat.

[Phoenix]

Tiers are a good way to generalize or not disrespect other greats in your rankings. The hard thing for most is to keep going past top 10. Because at some point you're going to make a choice that breaks your principles from your top 10. Once you start contradictory ranking you might as well ball it up and start over. For the record though some years back I put Lebron Kareem and Mj in the top tier together, meaning for me I could see a strong case for each to be the goat.

Exactly