Why not John Havlicek for GOAT?

[Akhenaten]

90%+ of us weren't there so I'm going off box scores and championships like everybody. This guy has 8 rings and was elite on offense and defense judging by his scoring outputs (on SUPER high efficiency for the era) and him making a bunch of 1st team defense.

For me someone who's pedestrian in the single most important aspect of the game (scoring) should never be in the convo I don't care how good they were on defense.

Only needing to win one series to be in the Finals for the bulk of your career is already a handicap in GOAT consideration but you're also average at best on offense?

So my question is why is John Havlicek never even MENTIONED, I don't hear ANYBODY put this guy in the mix, what gives?

[gbaLL]

CHRI$TIAN$=gang$ta$

https://media.pff.com/2024/08/2XRJGGG-scaled.jpg?w=1200&h=675

[Carbine]

He was never even top 3 in MVP voting. That's a pretty good starting point why he isn't the GOAT

[dankok8]

Because he had Russell/Cowens who had more impact on arguably all of those title teams.

Regardless though, Hondo is underrated. Surefire top 30/40 all timer. Gave you like 26/7/6 for like a decade and a beast on defense. Insane durability too played up to 45 mpg and didn't get hurt.

[sdot_thadon]

Nobody posting on this forum knows enough about him to elevate/dismiss him as a player. From what I could tell from reading about him growing up, he was highly regarded in the 70s but that was a dead era of the league in alot of ways. But with the stupid rangz game fans play now he gotta be in the top 3 right ?

[tpols]

He's definitely criminally underrated.

[Akhenaten]

He was never even top 3 in MVP voting. That's a pretty good starting point why he isn't the GOAT

I don't know man I'm about objective measures, MVPs, defensive teams etc are too subject to politics and narratives for me. That's not to say they mean nothing but Russell Westbrook and Steve Nash have 3 between them, neither one is messing with a player like Wade or CP3.

I'm seeing multiple seasons where Bill Russell got MVP but was voted 2nd team ALL NBA...HUH? Like what criteria is being used here?

[Stephonit]

Media narrative or lack of it.

The 1960s are easier to remember: Russell Celtics Dynasty and Wilt Chamberlain

The 1970s are a black hole in comparison. Parity with lots of champions no one bothers or wants to remember. The league was split and popularity was either waning or not growing.

After the Knicks win the media has no consistent story for its big markets in the NBA until Magic and Bird show up / are manufactured.

Result is Havlicek is known more for his time with Russell than he is for his own championship runs.

I personally think it is a joke how Pippen and Stockton are often rated higher than him on lists. Hondo is the greatest sidekick in NBA history. A sidekick who at crucial times arguably may have even been better than the all-time great he was the sidekick of and who won championships on his own.

[Gotterdammerung]

I'm seeing multiple seasons where Bill Russell got MVP but was voted 2nd team ALL NBA...HUH? Like what criteria is being used here?

The MVP was voted on by the players (until 1980) and the All-NBA was by sports journalists and broadcasters.

[ralph_i_el]

The pace was real crazy some of those seasons.

[1987_Lakers]

Because he had Russell/Cowens who had more impact on arguably all of those title teams.

Regardless though, Hondo is underrated. Surefire top 30/40 all timer. Gave you like 26/7/6 for like a decade and a beast on defense. Insane durability too played up to 45 mpg and didn't get hurt.


Pretty much this. Hondo had pretty good longevity compared to his peers, I think he retired being #3 on the all-time scoring list, but he was never the best player in the league, a borderline top 5 player in the league at his peak. He was kind of like the Karl Malone of his era to a degree, amazing player with longevity, but other guys were always better while he was playing.

[HylianNightmare]

Topics like this are what come up when I bump into a super oldhead at a court somewhere

[Jasper]

So my question is why is John Havlicek never even MENTIONED, I don't hear ANYBODY put this guy in the mix, what gives?

he has and was on ish many years ago.
I loved hondo , but he had a few years coming off the bench.
NOT GOAT>
He was a SF by trade.. and later years became a SG.
That is when his speed was pretty tired out, and SG's usual ran around him.
He is in my top 10 of all time greats though.

[Jasper]

Nobody posting on this forum knows enough about him to elevate/dismiss him as a player. From what I could tell from reading about him growing up, he was highly regarded in the 70s but that was a dead era of the league in alot of ways. But with the stupid rangz game fans play now he gotta be in the top 3 right ?

I watched him as well as saw him play in person. 70's had some awesome players ... Media was not there , so your recollection is a fade away on a screen.

[Nowoco]

Media narrative or lack of it.

The 1960s are easier to remember: Russell Celtics Dynasty and Wilt Chamberlain

The 1970s are a black hole in comparison. Parity with lots of champions no one bothers or wants to remember. The league was split and popularity was either waning or not growing.

After the Knicks win the media has no consistent story for its big markets in the NBA until Magic and Bird show up / are manufactured.


Correct. The 1970s have pretty much been airbrushed from NBA history for the following reasons.

Half the best players in the world played in the ABA
Fragmented league, loads of highly unmemorable champions
The best player in the world, Kareem, played for most of the decade on a weak Lakers team
The league was becoming blacker and this put off a lot of America, as sad as that is
Huge drug problem and frequent fights which fuelled the sentence above

The league was on its ass and nearly bankrupt. The 80s were such a turning point in every conceivable way that the 70s era immediately felt archaic and was brushed under the carpet. It's why star players like Hondo, Rick Barry, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes etc are rarely mentioned or hard to rank.

[3ba11]

Jordan won 6 rings as 1st option, while Havlicek might have 3 or 4 as 1st option, and I don't think he has any where he led his team in scoring for the RS, PO and Finals of a title run.. He might have 1 like that, but possibly none, while MJ has 6 (4 more than anyone else).

[SouBeachTalents]

Jordan won 6 rings as 1st option, while Havlicek might have 3 or 4 as 1st option, and I don't think he has any where he led his team in scoring for the RS, PO and Finals of a title run.. He might have 1 like that, but possibly none, while MJ has 6 (4 more than anyone else).
Damn, that's more than Kobe, looks like he should be ranked ahead of him.

[3ba11]

Damn, that's more than Kobe, looks like he should be ranked ahead of him.


Havlicek never won with the weaker casts that Kobe did

Kobe would've won 12 chips with Havlicek's casts

[1987_Lakers]

Havlicek never won with the weaker casts that Kobe did

Celtics only won 48 games in '69 with Russell on the edge of retirement.

[3ba11]

Celtics only won 48 games in '69 with Russell on the edge of retirement.


History shows that the long-standing organic juggernauts are the best teams.. ultimately, havlicek joined the goat dynasty and ready-made champion

[L.Kizzle]

He wasn't the best 3 in era (Elgin Baylor) but he's definitely a great name.
PS. Sam Jones is underrated from thos Celtic teams.

[RRR3]

History shows that the long-standing organic juggernauts are the best teams.. ultimately, havlicek joined the goat dynasty and ready-made champion
They were a juggernaut because of Russell you tard

[3ba11]

They were a juggernaut because of Russell you tard


Russell built the winning foundation and blueprint, so Havilcek didn't have to build anything, hence him not getting GOAT consideration (it's also the reason Lebron shouldn't)

[RRR3]

d-uh-uh-uhh-uhh
:lol

[L.Kizzle]

Celtics and and Russell kept losing teammates however they kept winning.

61 Sharman
63 Cousy
65 Tommy
67 KC Jones

Russell retired in 69 and Hondo and the Celtics missed the playoffs for the first time since moving to Boston.

[Stephonit]

Celtics and and Russell kept losing teammates however they kept winning.

61 Sharman
63 Cousy
66 KC Jones
68 Sam Jones

Russell retired in 69 and Hondo and the Celtics missed the playoffs for the first time since moving to Boston.

Sam Jones retired along with Russell. Maybe you were thinking of Heinsohn whose last year on the team was in 1965?

[L.Kizzle]

Sam Jones retired along with Russell. Maybe you were thinking of Heinsohn whose last year on the team was in 1965?

You're right, even better.

[John8204]

Correct. The 1970s have pretty much been airbrushed from NBA history for the following reasons.

Half the best players in the world played in the ABA
Fragmented league, loads of highly unmemorable champions
The best player in the world, Kareem, played for most of the decade on a weak Lakers team
The league was becoming blacker and this put off a lot of America, as sad as that is
Huge drug problem and frequent fights which fuelled the sentence above

The league was on its ass and nearly bankrupt. The 80s were such a turning point in every conceivable way that the 70s era immediately felt archaic and was brushed under the carpet. It's why star players like Hondo, Rick Barry, Dave Cowens, Wes Unseld, Elvin Hayes etc are rarely mentioned or hard to rank.

Well the problem was with white players...Rick Barry was an Ass so we erase him from history. Jerry West retired at 35 so we didn't get to see him chase 30K points. And Bill Walton was on trash teams and always injured.

Hondo was kinda stuck in Russell and West's shadow