What is better evidence of who was better at 22 years old?

[3ba11]

Read both choices carefully before deciding, and possibly do your own research such as looking at video tape of 22-year old Kobe vs Spurs compared to 22-year Lebron vs Spurs - and YOU decide who is better... then vote.

[1987_Lakers]

Kobe had peak Shaq. Nuff said.

[3ba11]

Kobe had peak Shaq. Nuff said.


The eye test tells the story - Kobe was OTHERWORLDLY vs the Spurs, while Lebron was the worst anyone has ever been - 22 on 35% - completely handcuffed with a "westbrick" or giannis-like, beginner jumpshot and bagless.. lol bron was a bum compared to kobe

[3ba11]

Kobe had peak Shaq. Nuff said.


Kobe had better teams with 1 less star because Kobe had Pau while Lebron had Wade/Pau, I mean Wade/Bosh.. Lebron and his extra star was beaten by record amount vs Spurs, while Kobe/Pau annihilated the Spurs in 08'... Of course bron also had the goat choke in 11'

[ImKobe]

Kobe was easily the better player because of his overall skillset. Lebron has the edge at the rim but not by a huge margin as KB was great at finishing through contact as well but KB was better in the post and a lot better from mid-range.

[Overdrive]

Kobe had better teams with 1 less star because Kobe had Pau while Lebron had Wade/Pau, I mean Wade/Bosh.. Lebron and his extra star was beaten by record amount vs Spurs, while Kobe/Pau annihilated the Spurs in 08'... Of course bron also had the goat choke in 11'

Didn't know 22 yo Lebron had Wade/Bosh or are you changing your topic again, because your agenda failed (again)?

[r15mohd]

that series against the Spurs goes against your whole 10pt gap premise you continually use to downplay Lebron and others, the same bs criteria you use with Lebron/Kyrie, Lebron/AD, etc. to say Lebron was carried

Kobe avg 33, Shaq avg 27

[SouBeachTalents]

Didn't know 22 yo Lebron had Wade/Bosh or are you changing your topic again, because your agenda failed (again)?


that series against the Spurs goes against your whole 10pt gap premise you continually use to downplay Lebron and others, the same bs criteria you use with Lebron/Kyrie, Lebron/AD, etc. to say Lebron was carried

Kobe avg 33, Shaq avg 27
This is why I can't believe anyone even still gives OP a reply. Even if you forget the fact he's talked about the same topic tens of thousands of times, his posts always consist of cherrypicked bullshit, merging multiple unrelated topics together, and arguments that contradict each other.

[tpols]

FroBe not only had an extremely polished jumpshot, he was an out of this world athlete attacking the rim.


https://youtu.be/qawbo3NOmR4?si=ndX63lbgTEiaPksD

Where as young Lebron was a 1 trick pony. The Spurs didn't even hard double him or anything. They just sat back and let him shoot like 20% on jumpshots. Did the same thing in 2013 and it damn near worked if not for Ray Allen.

[tpols]

that series against the Spurs goes against your whole 10pt gap premise you continually use to downplay Lebron and others, the same bs criteria you use with Lebron/Kyrie, Lebron/AD, etc. to say Lebron was carried

Kobe avg 33, Shaq avg 27

That's not a criticism against Kobe. That's a criticism against Shaq. By the numbers you just provided Kobe totally outplayed Shaq vs their toughest competition in the 2001 playoffs.

[3ba11]

Didn't know 22 yo Lebron had Wade/Bosh or are you changing your topic again, because your agenda failed (again)?


the proof of Kobe's superiority at 22 years old was already provided in the OP - anyone can use their eye test to watch Kobe and Lebron at 22 years old against the Spurs... It's pretty obvious that Kobe was already a COMPLETE player, while Lebron was a bricklaying, turnover machine and simpleton "down-hill" skillset.. Accordingly, he was shut down at 22 and 23 years old against championship comp, while Kobe was dominating and already achieved goat 3-peat chemistry.

the subsequent posts after the OP were simply making a general point about of how Kobe needed less to win and had better teams with less..

[Carbine]

Why was the Lakers record so mediocre without Shaq in the lineup those years? And still excellent when Kobe didn't play but Shaq did?

[3ba11]

Why was the Lakers record so mediocre without Shaq in the lineup those years? And still excellent when Kobe didn't play but Shaq did?


Lots of guys can carry weak rosters to 50 wins and Shaq probably did that better than anyone.. Otoh, great chemistry takes time and yields higher team ceilings - this is where Shaq fails and Kobe doesn't.. Shaq could carry weak rosters to 50 wins better than Kobe, but Kobe's presence allowed the development of great chemistry that yields higher team ceilings in the long-run, such as repeat champions.

[Manny98]

LeBron was and has always been a better floor raiser, nobody in NBA history would have been able to drag that garbage Cavs team to the finals at that age

However LeBron lacked the skill to close games which would prevent him from getting over the hump against the top teams like the Spurs so overall yes Kobe was the better overall player

[StrongLurk]

LeBron was and has always been a better floor raiser, nobody in NBA history would have been able to drag that garbage Cavs team to the finals at that age

However LeBron lacked the skill to close games which would prevent him from getting over the hump against the top teams like the Spurs so overall yes Kobe was the better overall player

OP is the worst poster on here, but I do agree Lebron's 2007 finals run was overrated.

They were not a garbage team (they were top 5 in rebounding and defense which still mattered a lot on 2007). They just lacked a lot of offensive scoring support. The 2007 Cavs also had a very weak conference in 2007 and only the Pistons in the ECF were a decent team (although not as good as their 04 and 05 versions).

I completely disagree that a 22 year old Lebron is the ONLY player that could drag the 2007 Cavs team to the finals. I mean, do you think 2007 Lebron is the best player ever? Ask yourself this. Why did the Cavs not make the finals despite Lebron being better in 08-2010 AND his supporting cast getting slightly better? Because they had legit competition against the Celtics/Magic unlike in 2007.

So yeah, the 2007 run was impressive for a 22 year old player, but there were also unique circumstances that year.

When specifically discussing 22-year old players (honestly dumb how specific this is), then I would take MJ/Kobe at 22 years old over Lebron at 22-years old when NOT factoring in team comp.

[r15mohd]

That's not a criticism against Kobe. That's a criticism against Shaq. By the numbers you just provided Kobe totally outplayed Shaq vs their toughest competition in the 2001 playoffs.

Shaq went up agaisnt TD and DRob who made 1st and 3rd All NBA respectively this year, TD 1st team all D team, TD 3rd in DPOY and DROB 5th in DPOY ... that 'criticism of Shaq' bs wont work trying to downplay him this series. he had a 2pt/1reb/1blk drop off going up against the twin towers.

[RRR3]

Shaq went up agaisnt TD and DRob who made 1st and 3rd All NBA respectively this year, TD 1st team all D team, TD 3rd in DPOY and DROB 5th in DPOY ... that 'criticism of Shaq' bs wont work trying to downplay him this series. he had a 2pt/1reb/1blk drop off going up against the twin towers.
Shaq also had to spend energy guarding Duncan and DRob on the other end. Meanwhile Kobe was guarding and being guarded by...Antonio Daniels? :oldlol:

[tpols]

Shaq went up agaisnt TD and DRob who made 1st and 3rd All NBA respectively this year, TD 1st team all D team, TD 3rd in DPOY and DROB 5th in DPOY ... that 'criticism of Shaq' bs wont work trying to downplay him this series. he had a 2pt/1reb/1blk drop off going up against the twin towers.

Kobe was dunking on both Duncan and D-Rob at times with Shaq nowhere in the picture.

Video proof.


https://youtu.be/tQmbW7xicTs?si=hqB86T8owZUfiauW

Shaq literally being played in single coverage, sets a pick and fades out, Kobe misses but slams it home in their face right after.

And that's only one of many... Kobe did that to Duncan and Robinson a lot. You're actually making his case even stronger.

[dankok8]

Shaq and Kobe were 1a/1b in the 2001 playoffs. The Spurs series was the real finals and Kobe was the MVP of that series for what it's worth.

[Manny98]

OP is the worst poster on here, but I do agree Lebron's 2007 finals run was overrated.

They were not a garbage team (they were top 5 in rebounding and defense which still mattered a lot on 2007). They just lacked a lot of offensive scoring support. The 2007 Cavs also had a very weak conference in 2007 and only the Pistons in the ECF were a decent team (although not as good as their 04 and 05 versions).

I completely disagree that a 22 year old Lebron is the ONLY player that could drag the 2007 Cavs team to the finals. I mean, do you think 2007 Lebron is the best player ever? Ask yourself this. Why did the Cavs not make the finals despite Lebron being better in 08-2010 AND his supporting cast getting slightly better? Because they had legit competition against the Celtics/Magic unlike in 2007.

So yeah, the 2007 run was impressive for a 22 year old player, but there were also unique circumstances that year.

When specifically discussing 22-year old players (honestly dumb how specific this is), then I would take MJ/Kobe at 22 years old over Lebron at 22-years old when NOT factoring in team comp.
I said no other 22 year old could get that Cavs team to the finals in place of LeBron and that despite LeBron being a better floor raiser I personally still think Kobe was a better overall basketball player at 22

[StrongLurk]

I said no other 22 year old could get that Cavs team to the finals in place of LeBron and that despite LeBron being a better floor raiser I personally still think Kobe was a better overall basketball player at 22

You didn't specifically say 22-year old in your post.

Either way, give 22 year old MJ or 22 year old Kobe a team that is top 5 in defense and rebounding and they could definitely "Drag" that team to the finals if they were in the 2007 EC. 22 year old Kareem and 22 year old Shaq could too.

[Hey Yo]

We saw what happened once Shaq was no longer with LA and soon became Kobe's team.

Missed playoffs, b2b first round exits which resulted in a public trade demand.

[Manny98]

You didn't specifically say 22-year old in your post.

Either way, give 22 year old MJ or 22 year old Kobe a team that is top 5 in defense and rebounding and they could definitely "Drag" that team to the finals if they were in the 2007 EC. 22 year old Kareem and 22 year old Shaq could too.
I said "at that age"

That Cavs team were a top 5 defense BECAUSE of LeBron they fell off a cliff whenever LeBron was off the floor and they were awful offensively outside of LeBron, his second option was Larry Hughes who barely shot 40% from the field :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

I said "at that age"

That Cavs team were a top 5 defense BECAUSE of LeBron they fell off a cliff whenever LeBron was off the floor and they were awful offensively outside of LeBron, his second option was Larry Hughes who barely shot 40% from the field :oldlol:

They were not a top 5 defense because of Lebron :roll: Show me the data that even suggests that.

At least Kobe/Kareem made all-nba defense at 22 unlike Lebron. MJ would've made it but he missed most of the regular season due to injury.

As a TEAM, they were elite on defense and rebounding. They also faced historically weak competition that year.

Lebron is my guy and I watched the whole 2007 run. Was amazing to watch, but the way he totally shit the bed in the finals really diminished his overall playoff run.

[3ba11]

.
Lebron received 4 players that were superior to 1990 Pippen but his simpleton "bron-ball" skillset couldn't develop them or win anything with them:



05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html).............. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4..... #3 team defense
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5... #19 team defense

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html).............. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'........... 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5



Jordan's early playoff record suffered by being thrown into the playoffs immediately in Year 1 with no time to grow his team, while Lebron had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'... This 3-year development included Lebron and Zydrunas becoming all-stars in 05', while also adding a HOF coach and 2-way wing that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball (stats above).

From 2005-2010, the Cavs ran a modern-style pick-n-pop with Lebron and Big Z as their go-to play - this gave them a strategic advantage at the time, but Big Z was still behind Lebron, Mo, Jamison, or even Hughes.. That's far more scoring help than Jordan ever had, plus better defensive rankings than the 1st three-peat Bulls.

The Cavs had the 4th-ranked defense in 2007, which was long before Lebron made an all-defensive team, so the Cavs had great defensive help for Lebron... By 2010, the Cavs had a 7-year organic juggernaut with Zydrunas, Shaq and Varejao providing great rebounding and defense, while Jamison, Mo and Zydrunas provided all-star scoring experience.. Many guys have won with less than this, such as Jokic, Dirk and MJ, to name a few.

This issue is that Lebron gave up on the chemistry learning curve required to win with organic rosters of 1 franchise player and opted for better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team), aka talent-based winning.. Since he never learned championship chemistry, he always needs more talent (more help)..

[3ba11]

LeBron was and has always been a better floor raiser, nobody in NBA history would have been able to drag that garbage Cavs team to the finals at that age






05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)............ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).............. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D


The all-star duo of Lebron & Zydrunas added a HOF coach and a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - MJ would obviously 3-peat with all that... :confusedshrug:..

Unfortunately, Lebron never developed his "pippen" because his skillset doesn't fit with many player types like forwards or spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram, and Pippen, while the Wade fit was underwhelming as well.






LeBron was and has always been a better floor raiser, nobody in NBA history would have been able to drag that garbage Cavs team to the finals at that age





Lebron didn't have a beginner team in the playoffs.. He had 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'.. Lebron and Zydrunas became all-stars in 05' and then added a wing that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, along with a HOF coach and top defenses.. His teams were rightly the 1st to 4th seed every year in Cleveland.. He never had a low seed until 2021 and 2024 (1st Round losses including a 4-0 sweep).

And most people feel that Iverson and Kidd took worse casts to the Finals and also history shows that everyone was taking 1-star teams to the Finals in that conference, even Dwight - the 00's East is the only conference in history that allowed a bunch of 1-star teams to make the Finals - look it up

[Jasper]

did we forget about Giannis .. he was 18 when he started , and by the time he hit 22 , he said he felt like a Veteran NBA player.

[Manny98]

05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html)............ 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html).............. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D


The all-star duo of Lebron & Zydrunas added a HOF coach and a player that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball - MJ would obviously 3-peat with all that... :confusedshrug:..

Unfortunately, Lebron never developed his "pippen" because his skillset doesn't fit with many player types like forwards or spotty-shooting ball-handlers like Westbrook, Hughes, Ingram, and Pippen, while the Wade fit was underwhelming as well.






Lebron didn't have a beginner team in the playoffs.. He had 3 years to develop a veteran high seed before entering his first playoffs in 06'.. Lebron and Zydrunas became all-stars in 05' and then added a wing that was playing better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball, along with a HOF coach and top defenses.. His teams were rightly the 1st to 4th seed every year in Cleveland.. He never had a low seed until 2021 and 2024 (1st Round losses including a 4-0 sweep).

And most people feel that Iverson and Kidd took worse casts to the Finals and also history shows that everyone was taking 1-star teams to the Finals in that conference, even Dwight - the 00's East is the only conference in history that allowed a bunch of 1-star teams to make the Finals - look it up

Hughes isn't even in same planet as Pipoen what are you on about :roll:

Hughes is a solid role player, Pipoen was a MVP candidate in his prime and the consensus best small forward of his era

The 07 Cavs had a -3.82 net rating with LeBron off the floor which strongly suggests they would be one of the worst teams in the league without LeBron

[3ba11]

Pippen was not an all-star in 1991 when MJ won his first title because Pippen was viewed as not that good by virtue of missing Game 6 inf the 1989 ECF, and then missing Game 7 in 1990 ECF - he was punished for this in 1991 because people realized he didn't deserve all-star in 1990, as the numbers and hindsight comparisons to Hughes and others show.

[sdot_thadon]

Scottie Pippen 1990 ALLSTAR.

[3ba11]

.
Kemp drastically outplayed Pippen against the same playoff opponent:



Kemp........... 26 on 47% (carrying Big Z)
Pippen......... 16 on 39% (carried by MJ)



Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 of 6 times against the same playoff opponent:



R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage



Horry outplayed Pippen against the 95' Magic, and Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals:



1995 Playoffs vs Magic

Horry............ 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS... 19.0 gmsc
Pippen'......... 19/10/6/1/1 on 52 TS... 15.8 gmsc


FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS


everyone outplays pippen REPEATEDLY

And pippen was a serial bed-wetter... guys like KAT, Mo, Brunson or Jamal Murray get 18 on 40% and everyone says that "more help needed", but true goats must learn to win with that like MJ did, otherwise they don't qualify.

[3ba11]

.
Lebron received 4 guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them like MJ did with Pippen:



05' HUGHES (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html).............. 21.6 PER... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP... 4.3 BPM... 22/6/5.... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................ 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/6/5.... No All-D

09' MO WILLIAMS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html)....... 17.2 PER... 0.165 WS/48... 3.1 VORP... 2.3 BPM... 17/3/4..... #3 team defense
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5... #19 team defense

09' JAMISON (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html).............. 20.6 PER... 0.126 WS/48... 2.8 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 22/9/2
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5

06' ZYDRUNAS (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ilgauzy01.html)'........... 21.9 PER... 0.184 WS/48... 2.1 VORP... 1.6 BPM... 16/8/1 (2 bpg)
90' PIPPEN (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html)................. 16.3 PER... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP... 1.8 BPM... 16/7/5








Hughes isn't even in same planet as Pipoen what are you on about :roll:





It wasn't just Hughes - Lebron was given FOUR guys that were better than 1990 Pippen but couldn't develop them or win with them (see stats above)






Hughes is a solid role player,





So was 1990 Pippen - he was a solid role player but worse than 2005 Hughes on both sides of the ball

Accordingly, MJ developed Pippen, while Lebron received 4 guys that were BETTER than young Pippen, but couldn't develop them or win with them..







Pipoen was a MVP candidate in his prime and the consensus





Pippen was never an MVP candidate and he was never in any MVP discussion, ever..

His 3rd in voting means the Bulls surprised everyone, but that doesn't mean anyone was like "Will David Robinson, Hakeem or Pippen win MVP??".. That never happened anywhere ever because that would be like saying a Klay or Jamal Murray-level producer and player was an MVP-level player.. That's how everyone thought about Pippen, so he was never in MVP talks.

In addition to never being in MVP talks, Pippen was not a franchise player that was asked to dominate and build something from scratch.. Instead, he was handed the keys to the most well-oiled machine ever and quickly crashed the car.. Similar to people not thinking Pippen was an MVP-caliber player, no one thought of Pippen as a franchise player because that would be like saying Klay, Murray or Middleton are franchise players - the only reason they aren't ranked as highly all-time as Pippen is because they were only carried to 1 title, while Pippen was carried to 6.. The stats confirm they were carried to titles but just not as many.







Pippen was the best small forward of his era





:facepalm:

Dominique was #2 for MVP in 1986, while building a lottery team to multiple 57-win teams and then destroying Pippen in the 93' Playoffs:



Dominique........ 30 on 44%
Pippen'............. 15 on 33%


It's a low bar to find players that can match or exceed Pippen's best performance - see the previous post where everyone outplays Pippen against the same playoff opponent.. Also, shooters weren't valued or utilized back then like they are today and they were often 3rd option, but Detlef Schrempf was more talented than Pippen - he simply wasn't carried to 6 titles in a cushy 2nd option role like Pippen was.

Similar to Schrempf, Sean Elliot was great athletic shooter that compares well to Pippen, but he wasn't utilized or featured like he would be today and he also wasn't carried in a cushy 2nd option role like Pippen.. Michael Finley was another guy that compared to Pippen, or Larry Nance, who averaged 2.7 blocks for his career..

This type of Schrempf/Elliot/Finley/Nance caliber was Pippen's caliber, aka secondary producers and non-franchise players (not asked to build team from scratch)... Otoh, the top tier of wings were dominant producers and franchise players like Dominique, Mullin, Hill, Drexler and Penny - they were all considered far superior to Pippen during the 1st three-peat or the 2nd three-peat years.







The 07 Cavs had a -3.82 net rating with LeBron off the floor which strongly suggests they would be one of the worst teams in the league without LeBron





Indeed, their chemistry was the worst, aka "bron-ball".. It always underachieves favored talent, such as 7 losses with preseason favorites or homecourt.

This type of plus/minus is typical of high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Harden and Westbrook... Teams with high-scoring ball-dominators don't develop chemistry because it's a 1-man system, so the team has no chemistry to use when the talent leaves the floor, thus inflating plus-minus for the ball-dominator - it's a function of the ball-dominator not developing any chemistry (imposing spot-up roles).

[sdot_thadon]

Scottie Pippen 1990 ALLSTAR.

Yup.

[ArbitraryWater]

prob not 2 unrelated random series