Is Tim Duncan the second greatest defensive player ever...

[dankok8]

after Bill Russell?

Look at the Spurs' defensive dominance during Duncan's time in the NBA. He's the one constant on all those teams.

https://i.postimg.cc/rsy32tsY/Spurs-Defensive-Dominance-in-the-Duncan-Era.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

Imo I'd say Hakeem, but would have no qualms with anyone choosing Duncan. Which is why it's insane the dude never won a single DPOY in almost 20 years :lol

[DJMcDonald]

Yes, but after Rudy Gobert.

[LAL]

Who the **** knows? Those weird ass stats won't give him a silver medal or some sht

The list of great defensive players in NBA history is pretty damn long, especially all positions?

There is no official list, if you think he's second or tenth in your mind, so be it.
Use your eyes, ask yourself how many games and tapes (yt) you have watched of all the players in history.
Then ask yourself who impressed you the most, then use stats as a helpful tool if necessary.

[John8204]

Top ten...maybe it's hard to really rank him when he played near the same time as Wallace, Garnett, Olajuwon, and Mutombo who were all more notable bigs to me. It was also the softer era. You have an arguement that he was the second best defender on his team behind Tony Allen.

For me Rodman and Barkley forwards that could handle Shaq or MJ that versatility

[SouBeachTalents]

Top ten...maybe it's hard to really rank him when he played near the same time as Wallace, Garnett, Olajuwon, and Mutombo who were all more notable bigs to me. It was also the softer era. You have an arguement that he was the second best defender on his team behind Tony Allen.

For me Rodman and Barkley forwards that could handle Shaq or MJ that versatility
Tony Allen played for the Spurs :lol

[pandiani17]

Top ten...maybe it's hard to really rank him when he played near the same time as Wallace, Garnett, Olajuwon, and Mutombo who were all more notable bigs to me. It was also the softer era. You have an arguement that he was the second best defender on his team behind Tony Allen.

For me Rodman and Barkley forwards that could handle Shaq or MJ that versatility

What are you talking about?:confusedshrug:

[John8204]

What are you talking about?:confusedshrug:

I was thinking of Bruce Bowen but wrote Tony Allen

[ILLsmak]

I was thinking of Bruce Bowen but wrote Tony Allen

I agree with your first post, but I think BB was a lesser impact defender than Duncan. He is a lock down which is cool, but other people were elite on ball, could guard areas, and help. Duncan is a good defender, but it’s funny to say he is second best ever.

Spurs built for defense. Duncan is the greatest system player, probably. Not saying he is only good in one system, but they say do this on o and this on D and TD does it better than anyone. Gets wins.

And that’s important, but I think there are similar impact defenders in systems and people who are more mobile and influential regardless of what is happening.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

Potentially. The arguments for Hakeem and KG require a bit more abstraction whereas the results were always there with Tim, despite moving parts. Other contenders would include Mutombo, Mourning, Robinson, B. Wallace, and Wilt I think.

Rudy doesn't have the playoff results yet. Draymond was too inconsistent during the regular season.

[Im Still Ballin]

:bowdown:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ5VMTYmdPk&pp=ygUSdGltIGR1bmNhbiBkZWZlbnNl


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdEiiWFNeeM&pp=ygUSdGltIGR1bmNhbiBkZWZlbnNl

[Axe]

Tony Allen played for the Spurs :lol


What are you talking about?:confusedshrug:
:oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

1. Russell
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Mutombo
5. Duncan

Those are my top 5.

[Manny98]

I was thinking of Bruce Bowen but wrote Tony Allen

And David Robinson and Kawhi

A good chunk of his career Duncan wasn't even the best defender on his own team

Ben Wallace and KG would be my picks for the two best defensive players over the last 40 years

[iamgine]

He could be but "Spurs' defensive dominance during Duncan's time in the NBA. He's the one constant on all those teams" is not going to cut it as enough reason.

[1987_Lakers]

I feel like people sleep on Mutombo in these debates.

He wasn't the athlete Hakeem & D-Rob were, but when all were at their best, Deke was a better rim protector than both of them.

[Im Still Ballin]

I feel like people sleep on Mutombo in these debates.

He wasn't the athlete Hakeem & D-Rob were, but when all were at their best, Deke was a better rim protector than both of them.

His defensive impact numbers are as good as anyone's. Career RAPM (including playoffs):

1) Garnett -6.3 per 100 DRAPM
2) Mutombo -6.0 per 100 DRAPM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8

It's just easy to hate on monster drop-coverage bigs like Mutombo and Gobert even though they're frequently the most impactful type of defenders. The flashier versatile defenders are often the ones that get overrated in comparison.

[Axe]

I feel like people sleep on Mutombo in these debates.

He wasn't the athlete Hakeem & D-Rob were, but when all were at their best, Deke was a better rim protector than both of them.
Some casuals probably look low at him because he didn't end up winning a ring at all.

[Wardell Curry]

Tim Duncan is the best player that ever lived.

[1987_Lakers]

His defensive impact numbers are as good as anyone's. Career RAPM (including playoffs):

1) Garnett -6.3 per 100 DRAPM
2) Mutombo -6.0 per 100 DRAPM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8

It's just easy to hate on monster drop-coverage bigs like Mutombo and Gobert even though they're frequently the most impactful type of defenders. The flashier versatile defenders are often the ones that get overrated in comparison.

Yea, it's very nice to have defensive versatility, but at the end of the day rim protectors have more impact in general.

[dankok8]

He could be but "Spurs' defensive dominance during Duncan's time in the NBA. He's the one constant on all those teams" is not going to cut it as enough reason.

Well it's tough to precisely gauge the impact of one player on team defense. There is a large enough margin of error that Duncan could be the #1 GOAT defender (even over Russell) with a very optimistic valuation and much lower maybe top 20 with a pessimistic valuation. Especially with defense where the metrics we have are very crude.

However, the reason I have Duncan very high, definitely top 5 ever, is that the team basically always got better on D with him on the court vs. off the court, often dramatically better. And second is that the Spurs' defense was the best in 2004 which was the year after Robinson left and Duncan himself declined a bit with injuries. A dude like Bruce Bowen was definitely good but he wasn't moving the needle the way Duncan was. Ditto with Kawhi. Because as others said, rim protection >>> other aspects of defense as far as impact.

[1987_Lakers]

However, the reason I have Duncan very high, definitely top 5 ever, is that the team basically always got better on D with him on the court vs. off the court, often dramatically better. And second is that the Spurs' defense was the best in 2004 which was the year after Robinson left and Duncan himself declined a bit with injuries. A dude like Bruce Bowen was definitely good but he wasn't moving the needle the way Duncan was. Ditto with Kawhi. Because as others said, rim protection >>> other aspects of defense as far as impact.

I agree that Duncan had more defensive impact over guys like Bowen & Kawhi,(Kawhi had years where he was a better defender than Duncan when teammates) but I remember reading a while back that the Spurs in 2004 had a 94 DRTG with Duncan on the court (Which is insanely good), and a 99.4 DRTG with Duncan on the bench. Defense was noticeably better with Duncan on the court obviously, but a 99.4 DRTG would have been good for a top 5 defense defense in the league in 2004. Duncan always had a good defensive unit around him. Some might argue that David Robinson was the better defender of the two during their '99 run, which I agree with.

With that said, it's a joke that Duncan never won a DPOY award.

[dankok8]

I agree that Duncan had more defensive impact over guys like Bowen & Kawhi,(Kawhi had years where he was a better defender than Duncan when teammates) but I remember reading a while back that the Spurs in 2004 had a 94 DRTG with Duncan on the court (Which is insanely good), and a 99.4 DRTG with Duncan on the bench. Defense was noticeably better with Duncan on the court obviously, but a 99.4 DRTG would have been good for a top 5 defense defense in the league in 2004. Duncan always had a good defensive unit around him. Some might argue that David Robinson was the better defender of the two during their '99 run, which I agree with.

With that said, it's a joke that Duncan never won a DPOY award.

In 1999, you can indeed make a good argument that Robinson was the better defender. Not by 2002 or 2003 though. Just the sheer difference in minutes played swings the overall impact heavily in Duncan's favor.

Regarding 2004, improving a defense already that good by 5 points is pretty insane.

DRtg Duncan ON/Duncan OFF/Difference

1998 - 97.4/98.2/-0.8
1999 - 93.1/91.9/+1.2
2000 - 95.8/102.4/-6.6
2001 - 95.7/104.9/-9.2
2002 - 98.5/103.6/-5.1
2003 - 98.1/103.2/-5.1
2004 - 92.1/97.5/-5.4
2005 - 94.5/103.4/-8.9
2006 - 99.2/100.3/-1.1
2007 - 98.4/104.6/-6.2
2008 - 101.6/102.1/-0.5
2009 - 106.0/103.0/+3.0
2010 - 103.0/107.9/-4.9
2011 - 102.2/109.5/-7.3
2012 - 100.3/106.5/-6.2
2013 - 99.4/103.6/-4.2
2014 - 103.1/101.7/+1.4
2015 - 102.0/102.6/-0.6
2016 - 96.1/100.9/-4.8

Obviously negative numbers are good. Late in his career he was more inconsistent and also played lower minutes compared to his defensive prime which was 2000-2007.

[dankok8]

Double post

[jstern]

Some casuals probably look low at him because he didn't end up winning a ring at all.

Aren't you a casual?

[Axe]

https://www.autismspeaks.org/themes/custom/particle/apps/drupal/logo_as.png

[90sgoat]

He's the most impactful defensive player I've seen, maybe Hakeem at his absolute peak.

I don't need to see stats to know that he was a defensive force coming into the league at 21 in the 1990s and he was a defensive force at 38 in the 2010s.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2385122-where-does-tim-duncan-stand-in-the-2015-nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-race

People forget that he was actually a frontrunner for DPOY in 2015, until he got injured. That's wildly impressive. He was doing that while still also anchoring the offense.

Hakeem was also extremely impressive on the defensive end and had a speed that Duncan didn't have, which made him a pest also outside the paint, also in a way that Duncan wasn't. Hakeem wasn't as good a tactician and defensive anchor though. Hakeem was a good defender on centers and other big men, but not as good as say Mutombo.

Ewing is quite similar to Duncan, in being both athletic, a very good center defender, but also an eminent defensive anchor. He was the soul of those Knicks teams in the same way that Duncan was for Spurs. Injuries took away some of his early mobility and athleticism. Might have been up there as GOAT defensive player without.

Mutombo probably is the best rim protector that I've seen, particularly against big men. He was huge and strong and an absolute beast against any center but the very best. He was not that good at moving out from the basket though. Still an unmovable mountain in the paint, but he would not be as important in 2015 as Duncan was.

Kareem is maybe not remembered for his defense, but he was also a great defender, if he we look at impact. Blocked a ton of shots and was so huge and so mobile, he deterred and deflected a ton of shots. We have 8 years of his prime average 3.3 blocks, leading the league 4 times.

KG has always seemed the most overrated in these lists to me. While he had much of that Hakeem allround ability and had the ability to anchor a defense like Duncan, he was not a strong man defender against other big men. He was simply too small and would not stand a chance against the likes of Shaq or Yao.

Ben Wallace is also in the overrated category. Too small, too short a prime, more of a specialist, than a true defensive anchor. Played on a team that was all around very physically though and could use his speed to play help defense.

Russell is probably the best. I've also seen some clips and a few quarters of full action and he does seem very solid on defense. He is very mobile and quick on his feet, but also could defend the best of the big men, notably Wilt.

[90sgoat]

He's the most impactful defensive player I've seen, maybe Hakeem at his absolute peak.

I don't need to see stats to know that he was a defensive force coming into the league at 21 in the 1990s and he was a defensive force at 38 in the 2010s.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2385122-where-does-tim-duncan-stand-in-the-2015-nba-defensive-player-of-the-year-race

People forget that he was actually a frontrunner for DPOY in 2015, until he got injured. That's wildly impressive. He was doing that while still also anchoring the offense.

Hakeem was also extremely impressive on the defensive end and had a speed that Duncan didn't have, which made him a pest also outside the paint, also in a way that Duncan wasn't. Hakeem wasn't as good a tactician and defensive anchor though. Hakeem was a good defender on centers and other big men, but not as good as say Mutombo.

Ewing is quite similar to Duncan, in being both athletic, a very good center defender, but also an eminent defensive anchor. He was the soul of those Knicks teams in the same way that Duncan was for Spurs. Injuries took away some of his early mobility and athleticism. Might have been up there as GOAT defensive player without.

Mutombo probably is the best rim protector that I've seen, particularly against big men. He was huge and strong and an absolute beast against any center but the very best. He was not that good at moving out from the basket though. Still an unmovable mountain in the paint, but he would not be as important in 2015 as Duncan was.

Kareem is maybe not remembered for his defense, but he was also a great defender, if he we look at impact. Blocked a ton of shots and was so huge and so mobile, he deterred and deflected a ton of shots. We have 8 years of his prime average 3.3 blocks, leading the league 4 times.

KG has always seemed the most overrated in these lists to me. While he had much of that Hakeem allround ability and had the ability to anchor a defense like Duncan, he was not a strong man defender against other big men. He was simply too small and would not stand a chance against the likes of Shaq or Yao.

Ben Wallace is also in the overrated category. Too small, too short a prime, more of a specialist, than a true defensive anchor. Played on a team that was all around very physically though and could use his speed to play help defense.

Russell is probably the best. I've also seen some clips and a few quarters of full action and he does seem very solid on defense. He is very mobile and quick on his feet, but also could defend the best of the big men, notably Wilt.

[1987_Lakers]

I think Walton at his peak deserves some love. I would take him in terms of defense over guys like Kareem & Ewing.

[90sgoat]

I think Walton at his peak deserves some love. I would take him in terms of defense over guys like Kareem & Ewing.

I've never watched him play, but it seems from praise that he probably was one of the most underrated big men. Short career and all that.

Someone needs to start a Bill Walton youtube channel.

[iamgine]

Rudy Gobert in the right era could be one of the greatest.

[90sgoat]

Rudy Gobert in the right era could be one of the greatest.

He'd be much more useful in the 90s for sure. He is made to look much worse because he isn't very good moving out from under the basket, but he's elite at defending the rim and defending most centers.

What made Duncan better is that he, like KG, was elite out from the rim, understood spaces and angles perfectly, but like Gobert and unlike KG, he was elite as a center defender as well.

[Xiao Yao You]

He'd be much more useful in the 90s for sure. He is made to look much worse because he isn't very good moving out from under the basket, but he's elite at defending the rim and defending most centers.

What made Duncan better is that he, like KG, was elite out from the rim, understood spaces and angles perfectly, but like Gobert and unlike KG, he was elite as a center defender as well.

Centers were bigger in the 90sso i doubt he would have been better. The numbers show hes one of the best guarding in space. Hes great in this era because of his versatility. Hed have more blocks in the 90s if that isy your measuring tool i guess

[Stephonit]

His defensive impact numbers are as good as anyone's. Career RAPM (including playoffs):

1) Garnett -6.3 per 100 DRAPM
2) Mutombo -6.0 per 100 DRAPM

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bg8KxzagN7D0O16EmUO9_kCyXwthEUjKywlrWPQUQt8

It's just easy to hate on monster drop-coverage bigs like Mutombo and Gobert even though they're frequently the most impactful type of defenders. The flashier versatile defenders are often the ones that get overrated in comparison.

Looking at that RAPM list should give people pause. RAPM at its peak usage a few years ago seemed to produce a reasonable list but now it looks to me like it was curve fit. The extrapolations one can make with RAPM have steadily gotten more ridiculous over the years as its weaknesses have become more evident.

RAPM is broken.