Do you remember Deron Williams?

[pandiani17]

I was thinking about CP3 being almost 40 and still being in the league, and Deron came to my mind. For the young ones, he was a player whose path crossed with Paul in college (there was a hyped game between their schools, Wake Forest and Illinois) and in his first years in the league. Threads comparing them were usual. However, he was almost washed at 30 years old, and retired long time ago.

Anyway, I find it fascinating how some players can still play until their 40s while others are done almost ten years earlier. And it is not just this era. John Stockton and Karl Malone, for example, were getting into the playoffs in 2001 when they were 39 and 38. On the other hand, Kenny Anderson or Larry Johnson were already calling it a day when they were 31,32.

[ralph_i_el]

He was really good even after he lost a step and was playing for the Nets. Could really do it all with the ball in his hands, and had great size/strength for a point guard. One of the few guards that could shoot the 3 off the dribble and post up.

[RRR3]

I was thinking about CP3 being almost 40 and still being in the league, and Deron came to my mind. For the young ones, he was a player whose path crossed with Paul in college (there was a hyped game between their schools, Wake Forest and Illinois) and in his first years in the league. Threads comparing them were usual. However, he was almost washed at 30 years old, and retired long time ago.

Anyway, I find it fascinating how some players can still play until their 40s while others are done almost ten years earlier. And it is not just this era. John Stockton and Karl Malone, for example, were getting into the playoffs in 2001 when they were 39 and 38. On the other hand, Kenny Anderson or Larry Johnson were already calling it a day when they were 31,32.
Deron's last big year was at 28. He was washed by 29. Pretty crazy.

[Wally450]

Dude was one of the best PGs in the league in the late 2000s.

[1987_Lakers]

CP3 was always considered better, but I remember Deron Williams always outplayed him whenever they went head to head.

Same thing with Dwight Howard & Yao, Yao always had big games vs Dwight.

[Jasper]

deron for the Illinois was an average player. Drafted by Utah , he molded into a powerhouse PG that was hard to contend with. Sometimes he would walk the ball up , and pop a 3 like it was nothing. Coach Sloan and him ran into a confrontation , I blame Sloan for , and Deron left for the Nets.
Bad decision , as well as getting injured and then losing a step.
I always wondered if he had gone to the Suns or Lakers what would of happened.
I believe he was a 1 time All-star and on the Olympic team.

[iamgine]

I was thinking about CP3 being almost 40 and still being in the league, and Deron came to my mind. For the young ones, he was a player whose path crossed with Paul in college (there was a hyped game between their schools, Wake Forest and Illinois) and in his first years in the league. Threads comparing them were usual. However, he was almost washed at 30 years old, and retired long time ago.

Anyway, I find it fascinating how some players can still play until their 40s while others are done almost ten years earlier. And it is not just this era. John Stockton and Karl Malone, for example, were getting into the playoffs in 2001 when they were 39 and 38. On the other hand, Kenny Anderson or Larry Johnson were already calling it a day when they were 31,32.

I think we often don't see players as real people. Real people get tired of their job. Some lost motivation after some time. Some people get injured and determined to get back better or die trying. Some get injured and just give up, not wanting to go through the grueling process. All are normal behavior.

[Xiao Yao You]

deron for the Illinois was an average player. Drafted by Utah , he molded into a powerhouse PG that was hard to contend with. Sometimes he would walk the ball up , and pop a 3 like it was nothing. Coach Sloan and him ran into a confrontation , I blame Sloan for , and Deron left for the Nets.
Bad decision , as well as getting injured and then losing a step.
I always wondered if he had gone to the Suns or Lakers what would of happened.
I believe he was a 1 time All-star and on the Olympic team.

Just another average player getring drafted 3rd in the draft

[tpols]

D-will would've killed it in today's green light 3pt heave format. His between the legs dribble, bounce, and pull up game was electric.

[pandiani17]

Just another average player getring drafted 3rd in the draft

He was not average. He was part of an Illinois team who played "run and gun" style, with Dee Brown, another player who ended up in the Rockets, James Augustine, etc. They had an amazing season and went to the national championship game, losing against Raymond Felton, Rasahd McCants, Marvin Williams and Sean May. Maybe there were questions whether his game would fit into the league, as it was fast paced and involved shooting so many threes.

[Patrick Chewing]

He had a sweet crossover.

[tontoz]

I wasn't paying attention to him when his game was falling off, but he had a body type that could put on weight easily. That could have been a problem playing pg.

[dankok8]

One of the all time underrated PG's. Those Utah teams were quite strong as well but kind of lost to history.

[Im Still Ballin]

Six-year prime of 19.4 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.8 apg on 57% TS (106 TS+). Not bad.


One of the all time underrated PG's. Those Utah teams were quite strong as well but kind of lost to history.

Kind of a Dwight Howard sort of career arc, wouldn't you say? Great individual production and team results. Fantastic prime over 5-6 seasons. Unremarkable outside of it.

[dankok8]

Six-year prime of 19.4 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.8 apg on 57% TS (106 TS+). Not bad.



Kind of a Dwight Howard sort of career arc, wouldn't you say? Great individual production and team results. Fantastic prime over 5-6 seasons. Unremarkable outside of it.

Yea that's a fair assessment.

Deron is probably more similar to Tim Hardaway if we're trying to match styles as well as career arcs.

[dankok8]

Six-year prime of 19.4 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.8 apg on 57% TS (106 TS+). Not bad.



Kind of a Dwight Howard sort of career arc, wouldn't you say? Great individual production and team results. Fantastic prime over 5-6 seasons. Unremarkable outside of it.

Yea that's a fair assessment.

Deron is probably more similar to Tim Hardaway if we're trying to match styles as well as career arcs.

[nayte]

I seem to remember there was talks about how he was better then Paul . Obviously crazy now but at that time..

[HylianNightmare]

Beşiktaş legend. Number 8 proudly retired

[ILLsmak]

I seem to remember there was talks about how he was better then Paul . Obviously crazy now but at that time..

He was, head to head. He shit on him since college. He was actually very good in the NBA. It's a mystery how he fell off so hard post Utah. It also sucks Utah never really had a chance at winning. He helped Boozer a lot.

Edit: he had pretty mediocre hops, but he had some fun dunks. They all were the same though. He def wasn't afraid to try. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbxssNjCXq4

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

I seem to remember there was talks about how he was better then Paul . Obviously crazy now but at that time..

Crazy at the time too

[Wally450]

Crazy at the time too

Eh, I wouldn't say so. When there were discussions about who the best PG in the NBA was, it was almost certainly headlined by CP3 and Deron.

[pandiani17]

Eh, I wouldn't say so. When there were discussions about who the best PG in the NBA was, it was almost certainly headlined by CP3 and Deron.

This. There were 3-4 seasons where they both were the best PGs, until Derrick Rose and Russell Westbrook started to steal the show in 2010 or so. Rajon Rondo was also in the conversation at the time, but obviously a tier or so lower. But from 2007 to 2010 or so I would say they were the best point guards. That was after Jason Kidd's and Steve Nash's prime years.

[Xiao Yao You]

Eh, I wouldn't say so. When there were discussions about who the best PG in the NBA was, it was almost certainly headlined by CP3 and Deron.

One a great 2 way player the other not. It wasnt close

[tpols]

One a great 2 way player the other not. It wasnt close

Eh... it didn't really play out that way though in reality. D-Will held his own and then some against Paul besting him multiple times H2H. He was a more explosive offensive player easily.

It's not as simple as offense defense 1+1=2. If that were the case Gary Payton would be considered better than Magic.

[ShawkFactory]

Eh... it didn't really play out that way though in reality. D-Will held his own and then some against Paul besting him multiple times H2H. He was a more explosive offensive player easily.

It's not as simple as offense defense 1+1=2. If that were the case Gary Payton would be considered better than Magic.

Easily? Wouldn't say that's the case at all.

[tpols]

D-Wills career high in a game is 57 points and Chris Paul's is 43.

He had a more gunslinger game to him and when they matched up prime for prime it wasn't at all definitive Paul got the better of him. Actually felt the opposite.

[Xiao Yao You]

Eh... it didn't really play out that way though in reality. D-Will held his own and then some against Paul besting him multiple times H2H. He was a more explosive offensive player easily.

It's not as simple as offense defense 1+1=2. If that were the case Gary Payton would be considered better than Magic.

Head to head doesnt prove anything. Paul was as good offensively as deron if not better plus played d. Payton nowhere near magic offensively

[AlternativeAcc.]

Head to head doesnt prove anything. Paul was as good offensively as deron if not better plus played d. Payton nowhere near magic offensively

Ether

[tpols]

Head to head doesnt prove anything. Paul was as good offensively as deron if not better plus played d. Payton nowhere near magic offensively

H2H vs the best competition is the best barometer there is. Way more important than performance against the average field of scrubs.

[RRR3]

H2H vs the best competition is the best barometer there is. Way more important than performance against the average field of scrubs.
Agreed, that's why LeBron is better than Kobe, always dominated him h2h.

[Xiao Yao You]

H2H vs the best competition is the best barometer there is. Way more important than performance against the average field of scrubs.

Notvin a team sport. Deron was on better teams. Ron boone voted for deron as roty because he out played him. :facepalm

[AlternativeAcc.]

Agreed, that's why LeBron is better than Kobe, always dominated him h2h.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DfisV7EVQAAD5n7.jpg:small



Yeesh. Not even close.

[tpols]

Notvin a team sport. Deron was on better teams. Ron boone voted for deron as roty because he out played him. :facepalm

Utah didn't have much better help at all. Unless you consider Carlos Boozer a superstar. And we know that ain't the case lol.

[ShawkFactory]

D-Wills career high in a game is 57 points and Chris Paul's is 43.

He had a more gunslinger game to him and when they matched up prime for prime it wasn't at all definitive Paul got the better of him. Actually felt the opposite.

This is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever seen. Using one game?? You’re better than that.

[Xiao Yao You]

This is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever seen. Using one game?? You’re better than that.

1 game or head to head vs a career :facepalm

[tpols]

This is one of the worst arguments I’ve ever seen. Using one game?? You’re better than that.


Its not a critique on just one game, but about their overall styles. And how it relates to how he measured up to Paul when they played vs each other.

D-Will was a big body point guard with a killer crossover / handles, and he loved to pull up from deep. He was a quick trigger PG by nature compared to CP3. Who could also average double digit dimes off the defensive attention he attracted.

His prime was short... but you may be too young or ignorant to know what the common sentiment was back then. And that's ok...

We forgive you.

[Neal Romer]

Nah I dont have any recollection of this 'Deron Williams.'

Who was he OP?

[ShawkFactory]

Its not a critique on just one game, but about their overall styles. And how it relates to how he measured up to Paul when they played vs each other.

D-Will was a big body point guard with a killer crossover / handles, and he loved to pull up from deep. He was a quick trigger PG by nature compared to CP3. Who could also average double digit dimes off the defensive attention he attracted.

His prime was short... but you may be too young or ignorant to know what the common sentiment was back then. And that's ok...

We forgive you.

Going off the rails at the end per usual. You really can’t control yourself :lol

Pretty sure I’m older than you but common sentiment was that it was pretty close, Williams always had an argument, and either could look better in any given game but it was probably CP3 overall. Much like Duncan/KG or Kobe/Tmac.

All of these guys are close. I initially took issue with you saying Williams was “easily” more explosive offensively. You quickly forgot this and delved into bullshit.

[ILLsmak]

Ether

dude is confused. He is a Jazz fan that doesn't like any of the players. haha. Think this dude prol watched every Jazz game that Deron played and he still doesn't have an understanding of how good he was. That is legit insane to me.

Deron was a huge problem for anyone.

@ Shawk, you really think Chris Paul was a bigger scoring threat than Deron?

https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3659206

'Paul feels equally at a loss against his pal: "I try to crowd him and live with jump shots. He's going to score, but when he gets everyone else involved, you can put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye." '

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

dude is confused. He is a Jazz fan that doesn't like any of the players. haha. Think this dude prol watched every Jazz game that Deron played and he still doesn't have an understanding of how good he was. That is legit insane to me.

Deron was a huge problem for anyone.

@ Shawk, you really think Chris Paul was a bigger scoring threat than Deron?

https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3659206

'Paul feels equally at a loss against his pal: "I try to crowd him and live with jump shots. He's going to score, but when he gets everyone else involved, you can put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye." '

-Smak

Thats not what I said. But ultimately yes, in a different way.

Paul had an ultimate understanding of the game and where to be, and had an incredibly consistent and deadly midrange game that Williams didn’t have to nearly the same degree. He was a better shooter overall.

Williams was stronger and better at attacking the rim but that’s all he had over Paul to me.

[ILLsmak]

Thats not what I said. But ultimately yes, in a different way.

Paul had an ultimate understanding of the game and where to be, and had an incredibly consistent and deadly midrange game that Williams didn’t have to nearly the same degree. He was a better shooter overall.

The numbers don't back that up, to be fair. But I can see why people would say Paul was better on offense, but I'm talking purely about being able to score and carry the team on that level.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

deadly midrange game that Williams didn’t have

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez9H4sYZrGs

Edit: IMO you could slot Deron at 2guard as a scorer, but I don't think he could check a SG. He can def play scorer off ball and has, though.

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

Which numbers?

I didn’t say Williams couldn’t score from midrange. I said that he didn’t have it to the degree that Paul did. You conveniently edited out an important part of the sentence to strawman me :lol

[Xiao Yao You]

dude is confused. He is a Jazz fan that doesn't like any of the players. haha. Think this dude prol watched every Jazz game that Deron played and he still doesn't have an understanding of how good he was. That is legit insane to me.

Deron was a huge problem for anyone.

@ Shawk, you really think Chris Paul was a bigger scoring threat than Deron?

https://www.espn.com/espnmag/story?section=magazine&id=3659206

'Paul feels equally at a loss against his pal: "I try to crowd him and live with jump shots. He's going to score, but when he gets everyone else involved, you can put your head between your legs and kiss your butt goodbye." '

-Smak

Where did i say i didnt like deron and that he wasnt any good? Probably top 6 jazzman ever but nowhere close to paul. Jazz blew it drafting deron over him because they thought hed be a better defender with his size :facepalm

[ILLsmak]

Which numbers?

I didnÂ’t say Williams couldnÂ’t score from midrange. I said that he didnÂ’t have it to the degree that Paul did. You conveniently edited out an important part of the sentence to strawman me :lol

I'm not trying to straw man you. People can scroll up and see the full thing you said. The biggest difference is that Paul shoots closer, which you can say is good or bad. Deron can get shots off the ball just as easily. He is an actual scorer. Paul is good at getting into the heart of the D and getting little Steve Nash like shots. Deron is just getting buckets. The whole 'point' of their scoring is different.

It's not wrong to say he scored way more points than him, just like it's not wrong to say he hit way more 3s than him in a game. It also happened when he was past his prime. He was running a system in Utah, but I dunno... I dunno how to quantify it. You just need to watch, I guess. As for numbers, I guess it depends on what year. Paul seemed to really get more efficient at a point, but coming in, Deron was better except for FT shooting, like dude said in the link I posted.

Deron just fell off, and it's crazy. I sure don't understand why. I don't have the energy to do the numbers, but do Deron on Utah vs the same years for CP and post the percentages. I really don't think it's different. Like I said, do the numbers for total 2, total 3, and total period (for Deron on Utah v Chris Paul in the same time frame.) I can't say for absolute sure, but it looks like it's at worst very close to equal.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

Where did i say i didnt like deron and that he wasnt any good? Probably top 6 jazzman ever but nowhere close to paul. Jazz blew it drafting deron over him because they thought hed be a better defender with his size :facepalm

Jazz never had the team to win lol. You said it wasn't close, but how can you say that while you are watching him do CP 3-4 times a year?

I think Paul is considered much better, and fairly, because he didn't drop off. Deron had some kind of a meltdown. But I think Deron was 'close' when they were in their 'primes.' I think it's revisionist history like people saying Melo is trash and a cancer. People forget how shit went when it was working. I'd take Deron as my championship PG out of the people in the NBA at the time. He might not have been the best, but he'd not get out performed enough to lose.

I'm sure you were probably thinking when the Jazz lost in the playoffs... damn I wish we had CP and we woulda won... instead of, you know, if our front line wasn't Boozer and Okur, we'd be able to compete with the larger teams like LA.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

I removed their rookie year (2005-06) because Deron was coming off the bench for half of the season while Chris was a starter.


2006-07 to 2012-13 Deron Williams

Regular season:

- 36.9 minutes per game; 504 games played
- 18.9 ppg, 3.3 rpg, 9.7 apg, 1.1 spg, 0.3 bpg, 3.3 topg
- 45.6% FG, 35.0% 3PT (4.1 3PA), 49.8% 2PT (10.4 2PA), 82.5% FT (5.1 FTA), 56.4% TS (53.87% league average TS%; 104.7 TS+; +2.53 rTS)
- +2.7 on-court; +1.8 on-off

https://i.ibb.co/HVprP8m/Deronshooting.png

Playoffs:

- 40.6 minutes per game; 51 games played
- 21.1 ppg, 3.6 rpg, 9.4 apg, 1.2 spg, 0.4 bpg, 3.5 topg
- 45.4% FG, 40.1% 3PT (4.5 3PA), 47.6% 2PT (10.7 2PA), 79.9% FT (6.7 FTA), 57.8% TS (53.87% league average TS%; 107.3 TS+; +3.93 rTS)
- -1.4 on-court; -3.9 on-off

https://i.ibb.co/wYLPyLM/deronshootingplayoffs.png


2006-07 to 2012-13 Chris Paul

Regular season:

- 36.6 minutes per game; 477 games played
- 19.0 ppg, 4.2 rpg, 10.1 apg, 2.4 spg, 0.1 bpg, 2.4 topg
- 47.9% FG, 36.6% 3PT (2.8 3PA), 50.7% 2PT (11.3 2PA), 86.0% FT (5.2 FTA), 57.9% TS (53.87% league average TS%; 107.5 TS+; +4.03 rTS)
- +5.3 on-court; +10.6 on-off

https://i.ibb.co/PwLBGX5/chrispaulshooting.png

Playoffs:

- 39.6 minutes per game; 40 games played
- 20.9 ppg, 5.0 rpg, 9.5 apg, 2.2 spg, 0.1 bpg, 3.0 topg
- 48.2% FG, 33.3% 3PT (2.9 3PA), 51.5% 2PT (12.8 2PA), 82.8% FT (5.8 FTA), 57.2% TS (53.83% league average TS%; 106.3 TS+; +3.37 rTS)
- -6.1 on-court; +1.2 on-off

https://i.ibb.co/syRjc6g/chrispaulplayoffshooting.png

[RRR3]

CP3 always killed Deron in impact stats iirc. Defense matters.

[Im Still Ballin]

Check out these career playoff scoring statistics. I might calculate them for the 07-13 period.

https://i.ibb.co/tcjthtS/playoffscoringdwillcp3.png


CP3 always killed Deron in impact stats iirc. Defense matters.

He did.

[Im Still Ballin]

CP3 got to dominate the ball in a heliocentric fashion while D-Will played within Jerry Sloan's Dick Motta-inspired Flex Offense. I guess the question is who benefitted from their circumstance more?

Was Williams held back? Would Paul have been even better in that Utah system?

[ILLsmak]

I removed their rookie year (2005-06) because Deron was coming off the bench for half of the season while Chris was a starter.

Nice, i had just looked at them when i made that post. I was gonna say no way Deron had 4 3pa when he didn’t have 4 once iirc, but he did jack in nj, apparently. What was the choice of years based on?

Also, Deron was in a motion-ish offense with 3 guards in college. Dee Brown (corn row one not dunker,) him and luther head. I think the personnel in utah might have been more suited to paul, but the system was right for deron. He needed the structure imo because he was a low key scoring pg. Just by watching them size someone up and how they do it you can see it seems like cp gets inside and shoots a bail out shot to change defense or when there is no one to pass, where as deron is out there like lemme come off this pick with my head up and launch it. If he was in nj at first i think his stats would have been higher, esp like 3s, but it’s hard to imagine a better team or coach than utah or sloan. They didn’t get along per se but Deron probably needed that.

To be fair tho sloan did him dirty at the end with the stuff he said. He might have never got over it.

My povs but whatever lol

Edit: i didnt recall he and deron both stayed with their first team the same amount of time basically. He came out mad in nj but i dunno if he was playin his best. He woulda never got 50 in utah haha.

Edit2: I do think sloan was getting a little senile or something to do all that. Deron was wrong but the media narrative that he made sloan quit destroyed him.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

Jazz never had the team to win lol. You said it wasn't close, but how can you say that while you are watching him do CP 3-4 times a year?

I think Paul is considered much better, and fairly, because he didn't drop off. Deron had some kind of a meltdown. But I think Deron was 'close' when they were in their 'primes.' I think it's revisionist history like people saying Melo is trash and a cancer. People forget how shit went when it was working. I'd take Deron as my championship PG out of the people in the NBA at the time. He might not have been the best, but he'd not get out performed enough to lose.

I'm sure you were probably thinking when the Jazz lost in the playoffs... damn I wish we had CP and we woulda won... instead of, you know, if our front line wasn't Boozer and Okur, we'd be able to compete with the larger teams like LA.

-Smak

Carmelo was cancer just like paul played both ends while deron played one. It wasnt close

[Xiao Yao You]

Check out these career playoff scoring statistics. I might calculate them for the 07-13 period.

https://i.ibb.co/tcjthtS/playoffscoringdwillcp3.png



He did.

Now impact stats matter? Guess gobert is an exception? :facepalm

[Xiao Yao You]

CP3 got to dominate the ball in a heliocentric fashion while D-Will played within Jerry Sloan's Dick Motta-inspired Flex Offense. I guess the question is who benefitted from their circumstance more?

Was Williams held back? Would Paul have been even better in that Utah system?

Dont think there is much doubt paul would have thrived in utah or anywhere for that matter. We know deron only thrived in utah. Deron spent at least a couple summers working with stockton. Paul is as close to stockton as you can get. Jazz blew it big time drafting deron over one of the all time greats

[ILLsmak]

Dont think there is much doubt paul would have thrived in utah or anywhere for that matter. We know deron only thrived in utah. Deron spent at least a couple summers working with stockton. Paul is as close to stockton as you can get. Jazz blew it big time drafting deron over one of the all time greats

Deron wasn't a negative defender. haha.

I admit that I think Paul is pretty overrated, as we have discussed in another thread. For someone who is so good, he sure didn't win much. Plus who knows if Paul would have gotten along with Sloan, either.

I dunno about his conditioning, but I think if shit didn't go south with the Jazz, Deron would have had a good career. HoF worthy. Sux how things work out.

Melo is legit, also. The world isn't so black and white. People have their strengths and weaknesses. There are like 20 guys in NBA history that don't have any real weaknesses. Being an all nba superstar is special. But then he 'fell off' and people got it ****ed up. There aren't many people in the NBA, in the era before this 'easy score' era, that could get you 30 consistently.

I think he and Deron would have made a good team. Too bad it never happened haha. HE GOT BOOZER INSTEAD. Melo just needed someone to limit his touches and feed him when he was hot. That's prol why he did pretty well with Billups.

-Smak

[Xiao Yao You]

Deron wasn't a negative defender. haha.

I admit that I think Paul is pretty overrated, as we have discussed in another thread. For someone who is so good, he sure didn't win much. Plus who knows if Paul would have gotten along with Sloan, either.

I dunno about his conditioning, but I think if shit didn't go south with the Jazz, Deron would have had a good career. HoF worthy. Sux how things work out.

Melo is legit, also. The world isn't so black and white. People have their strengths and weaknesses. There are like 20 guys in NBA history that don't have any real weaknesses. Being an all nba superstar is special. But then he 'fell off' and people got it ****ed up. There aren't many people in the NBA, in the era before this 'easy score' era, that could get you 30 consistently.

I think he and Deron would have made a good team. Too bad it never happened haha. HE GOT BOOZER INSTEAD. Melo just needed someone to limit his touches and feed him when he was hot. That's prol why he did pretty well with Billups.

-Smak

Carmelo was another high scoring 3 not a superstar. Ad and alex english werent considered superstars why is carmelo? No doubt sloan wouldnt have liked carmelo. Boozer was his poor mans mailman

[Manny98]

Being a Nets fan I am not a fan of him at all, probably my least favourite player of all time

[Xiao Yao You]

Being a Nets fan I am not a fan of him at all, probably my least favourite player of all time

:roll:

[ShawkFactory]

I'm not trying to straw man you. People can scroll up and see the full thing you said. The biggest difference is that Paul shoots closer, which you can say is good or bad. Deron can get shots off the ball just as easily. He is an actual scorer. Paul is good at getting into the heart of the D and getting little Steve Nash like shots. Deron is just getting buckets. The whole 'point' of their scoring is different.

It's not wrong to say he scored way more points than him, just like it's not wrong to say he hit way more 3s than him in a game. It also happened when he was past his prime. He was running a system in Utah, but I dunno... I dunno how to quantify it. You just need to watch, I guess. As for numbers, I guess it depends on what year. Paul seemed to really get more efficient at a point, but coming in, Deron was better except for FT shooting, like dude said in the link I posted.

Deron just fell off, and it's crazy. I sure don't understand why. I don't have the energy to do the numbers, but do Deron on Utah vs the same years for CP and post the percentages. I really don't think it's different. Like I said, do the numbers for total 2, total 3, and total period (for Deron on Utah v Chris Paul in the same time frame.) I can't say for absolute sure, but it looks like it's at worst very close to equal.

-Smak

See I don't understand why getting closer high-percentage looks would ever be a bad thing. I'm on my phone so do feel like actually posting the shot charts, but looking at years 07-10 which is probably Williams's peak it does look like he was a little more effective from the 18-24 foot range, albeit on lower volume. He was about 46% on those shots and attempted around 700 and Paul was at 44% on close to 900.

However, Paul was LETHAL in the 10-18 range, particularly on the right side. Paul took twice the amount of shots there and was close to 50% while Williams was around 44%.

Williams took more 3s and shot negligibly lower at 36% to Pauls 37%.

[ILLsmak]

See I don't understand why getting closer high-percentage looks would ever be a bad thing. I'm on my phone so do feel like actually posting the shot charts, but looking at years 07-10 which is probably Williams's peak it does look like he was a little more effective from the 18-24 foot range, albeit on lower volume. He was about 46% on those shots and attempted around 700 and Paul was at 44% on close to 900.

However, Paul was LETHAL in the 10-18 range, particularly on the right side. Paul took twice the amount of shots there and was close to 50% while Williams was around 44%.

Williams took more 3s and shot negligibly lower at 36% to Pauls 37%.

It's not a bad thing at all. Just saying it's different. Deron would shoot some of those little shots, but usually when he got that deep, he'd go all the way in or float. Or even bang people.

Deron is a legit scoring PG. The two things I take issue with are that Paul is a better scorer than Deron and the fact that Deron didn't have a deadly mid range game. Deron had all kinds of scoring moves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZwy_72eBCs Look at the dumb shit he is doing. His balance for dribbles and his balance for pull ups / drives made it so he could get any shot he wanted. He just lost some of his 'extra stuff' post Utah.

Here's a Paul mix by the same dude. He goes in, but I dunno... you can see the difference, right? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-d6Q6m9B3g

I will concede that dude was probably only really elite a few years, though. Basically during the 3 finals after LAL got Pau, he was at the top of his game. Then they shit all over him by blaming him for Jerry's departure and trading him.

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

Again, im not saying Paul was for sure a better scorer. I just took issue with someone saying that Williams was easily better on that end, or more explosive.

At the end of the day he was a lot of fun to watch because his movements where a little more explosive almost like a running back who’d make 1 or 2 cuts and then go. Paul was more methodical like a LeVeon Bell or someone in that his movements were more felt out and based on how the defense was shading.

There’s no right way but they were close on that end. When you add that CP was an elite defender at the position then it’s clear who was better. But as scorers it’s close and excitement-wise I could understand going Williams.

[tpols]

D-Will was more explosive. That's just a fact. Paul was better for other reasons, but yea... deron williams had a Kobe gear in him when he got hot and was quicker to start launching. Paul had brakes on his game.

[ArbitraryWater]

D-will would've killed it in today's green light 3pt heave format. His between the legs dribble, bounce, and pull up game was electric.

Hm, Lillard is prob the modern version of him.

[tpols]

Hm, Lillard is prob the modern version of him.

Yes but he was bigger an stronger than Dame. He was a weight bully at PG. I think that's why Paul had problems with him.

[ILLsmak]

Again, im not saying Paul was for sure a better scorer. I just took issue with someone saying that Williams was easily better on that end, or more explosive.

At the end of the day he was a lot of fun to watch because his movements where a little more explosive almost like a running back whoÂ’d make 1 or 2 cuts and then go. Paul was more methodical like a LeVeon Bell or someone in that his movements were more felt out and based on how the defense was shading.

ThereÂ’s no right way but they were close on that end. When you add that CP was an elite defender at the position then itÂ’s clear who was better. But as scorers itÂ’s close and excitement-wise I could understand going Williams.

Chris got it done. Deron just had better pace as a scorer, to me. He seemed to use much less energy to get his shots. Like someone said in the comments, they don’t know how that same move kept working. It’s not even an issue of points, per se. It’s just different play styles. So much of what “prime” Deron did was predicated on his ability to blow by people or double cross into that J.

Paul is the kinda dude who would die with Blake. Not because he canÂ’t score, but because he is the pg and knows Blake is the number one option (and imo they need him to contend.) Deron would score outside of pg scores and thatÂ’s with Sloan breathing down his neck.

I do think they were close as players. I think there was a time when Deron could bring more for your team if it was built a certain way. Basically if he wasnÂ’t a better scorer, it would be no contest. Taking good shots, esp open, I would agree Paul is a better shooter, but not by much. I do remember him being very automatic. But I do wonder how it goes if you throw Deron on a team with LMA and shooters like he was Dame. Just be like, lead us! I think heÂ’d have had a nice ppg but probably wouldnÂ’t have won as much. I donÂ’t dispute Paul having better iq, either.

Deron waa cold, tho, and be murdered CP early. Like people say, defensive ability doesnÂ’t matter when you have such difference in sizes.

I still donÂ’t forgive cp for egregious flopping, being a snake, and ball punching, but he is def one of the top pgs. Maybe not as top as people think, but heÂ’s def top 5 easy imo. Buut Deron wasnÂ’t just under him on every level. It was mainly his ability to get his as a pg. For awhile people didnÂ’t even notice Deron had one of the best cross overs haha. Prol cuz Utah.

Edit: *** ipad.

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

Yea it seems like you’re just not a CP fan. Which is fair because like you said he did seem and act like an unlikeable dude on the court a lot of times.

I’ll say the styles were different Williams had that pure no hesitation trigger at times but CP would hesitate twice and then get an easy 14 footer that was cash every time.

Agree to disagree here but I do see where you’re coming from and I actually did play devils advocate back then to say to guys that DWill might be better. And I believed it occasionally because he could be spectacular. But Cp was just too consistent and rarely took a step wrong.

[ShawkFactory]

Hm, Lillard is prob the modern version of him.

Slightly I guess. Lillard is a pure score-first guy. The assists are a function of him having to give it up because it wouldn’t make sense to shoot.

Williams wouldn’t go nuclear like Lillard and I don’t think had quite the ability to but also played better in a system.

Similar level players though.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Slightly I guess. Lillard is a pure score-first guy. The assists are a function of him having to give it up because it wouldn’t make sense to shoot.

Williams wouldn’t go nuclear like Lillard and I don’t think had quite the ability to but also played better in a system.

Similar level players though.

Yeah, Lillard is a way better scorer than Deron, while Deron was a way better passer.

Haliburton is the closest comp to Williams in today's league.

[ArbitraryWater]

Haliburton plays like no one else to me tbh.

Dont see that resemblance.


Yes but he was bigger an stronger than Dame. He was a weight bully at PG. I think that's why Paul had problems with him.

bigger, but stronger? Could be but not by much I think, Dame has the edge in muscles.

[ILLsmak]

Haliburton plays like no one else to me tbh.

Dont see that resemblance.



bigger, but stronger? Could be but not by much I think, Dame has the edge in muscles.

It's like body strength. haha. I dunno how strong Deron was cuz he was pudgy, but the way he used his strength as a guard was pretty amazing. It was especially apparent against smaller guys.

I think he might have done better to be a bit smaller. I have been looking up Deron stuff since this thread cuz it's like... am I trippin? But nah, Deron really was what I remember. His body and ankles started to fail him pretty early, though. It's hard to say if he would have lasted longer if he were lighter / more in shape.

-Smak

[Im Still Ballin]

It's always good to see what people were saying back in the moment. I've rounded up some old ISH threads:

Deron Williams is going to be MVP [11-04-2007, 11:20 AM] (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?61342-Deron-Williams-is-going-to-be-MVP)
Deron williams is not the 2nd best point guard 05-17-2009, 03:07 AM (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?131944-Deron-williams-is-not-the-2nd-best-point-guard)
Deron Williams: "I've been the best PG in the NBA for a while, CP3 is #2, Nash #3" 04-29-2010, 04:12 AM (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?172179-Deron-Williams-quot-I-ve-been-the-best-PG-in-the-NBA-for-a-while-CP3-is-2-Nash-3-quot)

[ILLsmak]

It's always good to see what people were saying back in the moment. I've rounded up some old ISH threads:

Deron Williams is going to be MVP [11-04-2007, 11:20 AM] (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?61342-Deron-Williams-is-going-to-be-MVP)
Deron williams is not the 2nd best point guard 05-17-2009, 03:07 AM (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?131944-Deron-williams-is-not-the-2nd-best-point-guard)
Deron Williams: "I've been the best PG in the NBA for a while, CP3 is #2, Nash #3" 04-29-2010, 04:12 AM (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?172179-Deron-Williams-quot-I-ve-been-the-best-PG-in-the-NBA-for-a-while-CP3-is-2-Nash-3-quot)

Epic. Bigsmoke!

I always wanna see what wild shit I said. Usually I remember some other thread, but lool I legit believe noh got nba love post katrina for a few years. I realize how crazy that sounds now haha.

-Smak

[ILLsmak]

I was just watching him beat up Frank Gore. lool that shit is dedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcakHo9HA0

-Smak

[warriorfan]

I was just watching him beat up Frank Gore. lool that shit is dedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcakHo9HA0

-Smak

Damn I forgot about this. I think I blocked it out of my memory because it was painful watching gore get whooped. Frank Gore is as tough as they come, he’s one of those dudes you put on a list who you don’t wanna meet in a dark alley. Williams was just too big for him.

Deron vs Cp3 was one of the most interesting topics 15+ years ago.

[WhiteKyrie]

His prime of 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011, 2012 he was quite nice.

[ILLsmak]

Damn I forgot about this. I think I blocked it out of my memory because it was painful watching gore get whooped. Frank Gore is as tough as they come, he’s one of those dudes you put on a list who you don’t wanna meet in a dark alley. Williams was just too big for him.

Deron vs Cp3 was one of the most interesting topics 15+ years ago.

Yea gore looked like a goon, but it goes to show how big deron really is.

-Smak

[tpols]

Yea gore looked like a goon, but it goes to show how big deron really is.

-Smak


It's hard to tell because in basketball he's playing on a court with a bunch of guys 6'8 to 7 foot plus tall, but Dwill was about the size of an NFL linebacker if he went on a football diet and gained a little weight. And he was clearly a guy who had no problem gaining weight, didn't have the typical twig build like ja Morant or something.

[ILLsmak]

It's hard to tell because in basketball he's playing on a court with a bunch of guys 6'8 to 7 foot plus tall, but Dwill was about the size of an NFL linebacker if he went on a football diet and gained a little weight. And he was clearly a guy who had no problem gaining weight, didn't have the typical twig build like ja Morant or something.

Yeah. It goes to show why CP couldn't guard him. He was a bully guard. I really wish he had got a chance to compete for a ring and not had his career get derailed like it did. He's def a hof talent. Sadly, shit can change. I guess he still did what he wanted, tho. He was a state wrestler in hs, I think.

His hops were kind of surprising cuz of how fat he looked. Not like he had great hops, but every time he yammed it on someone, it was like wat??

-Smak

[ralph_i_el]

I was just watching him beat up Frank Gore. lool that shit is dedly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVcakHo9HA0

-Smak

The length difference was too big. Gore needed to get inside his reach like Tyson, but he kept wrapping up.

[kentatm]

CP3 was always considered better, but I remember Deron Williams always outplayed him whenever they went head to head.

Same thing with Dwight Howard & Yao, Yao always had big games vs Dwight.

Yao was 100% better than Dwight. He just couldn't stay healthy to save his life.

[Xiao Yao You]

Yao was 100% better than Dwight. He just couldn't stay healthy to save his life.

Better shooter. Not better otherwise