Simple argument for Kobe over Lebron

[3ba11]

Kevin Love was viewed by many as a top player in 2014, while Pau was nowhere near Love before joining Kobe.

Love > Pau but Lebron destroyed Love to a role player, while Kobe elevated Pau from 1x all-star to perennial All-NBA.

Accordingly, Lebron doesn't elevate teammates and never has.. The "bron-ball" skillset didn't develop anyone in 21 seasons.

Since teammates play so much worse alongside bron-ball, while Kobe's goat scoring diversity fit with everyone and elevated everyone, it's clear that Kobe is far superior at basketball.. Kobe is better because he elevated teammates and therefore could achieve better teams with less help - this includes repeating with a 2nd option that was worse than Bosh and Love.
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[1987_Lakers]

Gary Payton & Steve Nash became role players playing with Kobe.

[Carbine]

Davis played the best ball of his life on his way to winning a title with Lebron.

Logically speaking if you're used to getting #1 option opportunities on a non playoff team (Timberwolves never made playoffs with Love) and then you come to a championship caliber team getting #3 option opportunities your stats will naturally fall off.

[Nowoco]

Pau was nowhere near Love before joining Kobe.

Pau put up the same numbers in his rookie season and beyond as he did when in LA. It's just no-one gave a shit because he was in Memphis, who a year earlier were in Vancouver.

In other words. Pau was Pau before Kobe. If anything, Pau made Kobe, at least the #24 version.

[ShawkFactory]

Pau put up the same numbers in his rookie season and beyond as he did when in LA. It's just no-one gave a shit because he was in Memphis, who a year earlier were in Vancouver.

In other words. Pau was Pau before Kobe. If anything, Pau made Kobe, at least the #24 version.

3ball thread aside, yea Pau was Pau. Playing on literally the smallest market team in the league did him no favors. He was a very good player and a perfect 2nd option because he didn’t care about his numbers or being fed.

He wouldn’t put up Kevin Love stats as a #1 but did other things better.

[3ba11]

Gary Payton & Steve Nash became role players playing with Kobe.


Dwight was All-NBA alongside Kobe even though he was coming off his career-changing injury, so no

Nash was 38

Meanwhile, Love was 25 years old and at his peak before he sacrificed his career for bron-ball... NO ONE respects Love's 1 chip, so he would've been better off staying in Minnesota and making a bunch more All-NBA and have a few playoff runs

[Carbine]

Dwight hated playing with Kobe

[sdot_thadon]

He misspelled the thread title Op meant to type "Stupid argument for Kobe over Lebron"
Guy picks the least effective arguments possible to get pummeled over .

[3ba11]

Davis played the best ball of his life on his way to winning a title with Lebron.





2020 wasn't AD's best season - 2018 and 2015 were easily better - he actually won a game off the 2018 Warriors in the playoffs, while Lebron lost by record amount.

More importantly, one of the biggest arguments that Lebron fans say is "look at what happens to the team when Lebron isn't there"... By the same token, there are 2 times in Lebron's career where an acquisition elevated his team from trash to league favorite and/or champion.

The first one was 2008, when the Cavs won 45 games and were gutter trash - everyone knew that all-star spacing was needed to explode the Cavs' offense, which Mo provided the following year and won 66 games... 2020 was another example when AD arrived to lift the Lakers from lottery to champion - he achieved the turnaround by leading the Lakers in scoring and turning their defense from worst to first.... And it's interesting that the only times that Lebron won 60 games and MVP was when he received the all-star spacing that his stiff-arm needed (Mo, Allen).







Logically speaking if you're used to getting #1 option opportunities on a non playoff team (Timberwolves never made playoffs with Love) and then you come to a championship caliber team getting #3 option opportunities your stats will naturally fall off.





You're forgetting that Love and Bosh were star offensive players that could "do-it-all", so they weren't simply "reduced"... They were cratered to garbage players compared to their previous caliber.. Furthermore, third options on a championship team are normally excellent players with major roles, but Love/Bosh were usually complete garbage and total role players that everyone trashed.

Many guys averaged 20+ as third option but Love/Bosh weren't anywhere near this, especially in the playoffs - it was a STUNNING reduction of do-it-all players to basically Udonis Haslem-level or something... By comparison, we saw 3rd options like Klay and Harden average 20+ alongside KD.. We saw Jamison average 20+ as 3rd option alongside Arenas in 07', and countless other examples - the common thread is that the 1st option is an expert jumpshooter that lets the ball move, aka KD, Arenas, or Mullin in the 90's are a few examples.

So again, Kobe achieved more dominant teams with a sidekick that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options of Love or Bosh - it's an obvious display of Kobe being superior at basketball... And we know WHY he did more with less - his GOAT scoring diversity fit with all players or systems, so teammates were elevated instead of being reduced to spot-up shooter like the "bron-ball" skillset, aka "high-scoring ball-domination".. Bron-ball is a simpleton "down-hill" skillset, which isn't 5-man basketball like Kobe's goat scoring diversity allows..

[1987_Lakers]

Dwight was All-NBA alongside Kobe even though he was coming off his career-changing injury, so no

Nash was 38

Meanwhile, Love was 25 years old and at his peak before he sacrificed his career for bron-ball... NO ONE respects Love's 1 chip, so he would've been better off staying in Minnesota and making a bunch more All-NBA and have a few playoff runs

GP the year before joining Kobe: 20/4/8
GP with Kobe: 15/4/6

Nash the year before joining Kobe: 13/3/11
Nash with Kobe: 13/3/7

[tpols]

The thing is Kobe was always seen as a villain and an MJ copycat while Lebron was considered The Golden Child (per Rasheed Wallace) his whole career and driving Hummers since he was 16 years old. So it's a rose tinted glasses thing.

The fact of the matter is Kevin Love averaged 26/14, was rebounding champion and led teams to a similar win total as Memphis Pau... while Gasol himself was only putting up 19/10.

I could understand if Pau was a great defender to make up the statistical difference but... he wasn't. He was actually soft as hell. Odom, Kobe, Artest, and Fisher made up for his defensive deficiencies though.

The main point though is Kobe enhanced Paus game. He saw no drop off playing with Kobe compared to when he was a 1st option. Love OTOH cratered with Lebron.

Is what it is... how you affect teammates matters.

[1987_Lakers]

The thing is Kobe was always seen as a villain and an MJ copycat while Lebron was considered The Golden Child (per Rasheed Wallace) his whole career and driving Hummers since he was 16 years old. So it's a rose tinted glasses thing.

The fact of the matter is Kevin Love averaged 26/14, was rebounding champion and led teams to a similar win total as Memphis Pau... while Gasol himself was only putting up 19/10.

I could understand if Pau was a great defender to make up the statistical difference but... he wasn't. He was actually soft as hell. Odom, Kobe, Artest, and Fisher made up for his defensive deficiencies though.

The main point though is Kobe enhanced Paus game. He saw no drop off playing with Kobe compared to when he was a 1st option. Love OTOH cratered with Lebron.

Is what it is... how you affect teammates matters.

Pau was a superior defender compared to Love.

[tpols]

Davis played the best ball of his life on his way to winning a title with Lebron.

Logically speaking if you're used to getting #1 option opportunities on a non playoff team (Timberwolves never made playoffs with Love) and then you come to a championship caliber team getting #3 option opportunities your stats will naturally fall off.

AD averaged 30+/10+ in the playoffs on tremendous efficiency before he went to LA. Nobody wins with the Pelicans and their rosters but he was awesome. Doing the same numbers with Lebron wasn't a shock. He actually averaged less points in the bubble ring than his career playoff averages before that. Look it up. Straight facts.

[ShawkFactory]

The thing is Kobe was always seen as a villain and an MJ copycat while Lebron was considered The Golden Child (per Rasheed Wallace) his whole career and driving Hummers since he was 16 years old. So it's a rose tinted glasses thing.

The fact of the matter is Kevin Love averaged 26/14, was rebounding champion and led teams to a similar win total as Memphis Pau... while Gasol himself was only putting up 19/10.

I could understand if Pau was a great defender to make up the statistical difference but... he wasn't. He was actually soft as hell. Odom, Kobe, Artest, and Fisher made up for his defensive deficiencies though.

The main point though is Kobe enhanced Paus game. He saw no drop off playing with Kobe compared to when he was a 1st option. Love OTOH cratered with Lebron.

Is what it is... how you affect teammates matters.

Their games were very different. Pau wasn’t someone who was going to accrue numbers by being “the guy”.

He was going to be 20/10 regardless of situation. I think the Olympics showed it well. He was an all-around baller and generally played well in big moments.

Is what it is. It’s more useful in my opinion to have a second option who’s going to do his thing regardless than someone who isn’t significantly better at all and doesn’t know how to be a glorified role player.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Pau was a superior defender compared to Love.

Pau was a monster. Great rebounder, great passer, efficient, high IQ. Dude used to routinely scoop up Kobes bricks, like in game 6 vs OKC in 2010 where hit a game winner after a miserable attempt from Kobe.

Pau is insanely underrated. One of the greatest 2nd options ever.

[tpols]

Pau was a superior defender compared to Love.

If Love was 3-4/10 defender, Pau was maybe a 5. 6 on a good day. He just wasnt a tough defender. The advanced metrics show that Odom was by far LAs top big man defender. Painting Pau as some defensive player is just ignorant. He wasn't that guy.

And when it comes to offense prime Love outproduced him and he did so on tremendous efficiency. And he was rebounding champion something Pau never came close to doing.

That's just what it was. Their talent wasn't far apart at all. But Kobe squeezed more juice out of what he had than Lebron did.

[SouBeachTalents]

You know OP's case for Kobe > LeBron is in fact extremely weak because he's always grasping for straws with laughably stupid takes like this :lol His arguments always come down to hyper specific, cherry picked, often irrelevant points like this one. He knows if he tried to back Kobe on the big picture, relevant data and results over 20 year careers for both, he would get crushed.

[3ba11]

Their games were very different. Pau wasn’t someone who was going to accrue numbers by being “the guy”.

He was going to be 20/10 regardless of situation. I think the Olympics showed it well. He was an all-around baller and generally played well in big moments.

Is what it is. It’s more useful in my opinion to have a second option who’s going to do his thing regardless than someone who isn’t significantly better at all and doesn’t know how to be a glorified role player.


How do you explain Pau being worse than Bosh or Love - he was considered worse than both by fans and coaches (all-star appearances) or media (all-nba)

So Kobe had better teams with a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options - how do you respond to this

[ShawkFactory]

How do you explain Pau being worse than Bosh or Love - he was considered worse than both by fans and coaches (all-star appearances) or media (all-nba)

So Kobe had better teams with a 2nd option that was worse than Lebron's 3rd options - how do you respond to this

How do you?

[tpols]

How do you?

The point is they're all similar tier players but yall act like they aren't. And Kobe only needed a singular Bosh / Love type to do what Lebron needed to win with Wade and Kyrie on deck as well as those guys.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kinda forgot how stacked those late 2000's Lakers were relative to their competition...

Peak Pau, Peak Odom, Fisher, Bynum, Ariza/Artest....


Just crazy stacked. Better than any team LeBron has ever had.

[ShawkFactory]

The point is they're all similar tier players but yall act like they aren't. And Kobe only needed a singular Bosh / Love type to do what Lebron needed to win with Wade and Kyrie on deck as well as those guys.

Of course they are similar tiers. Calling Pau worse than them definitively is weird though. I’d take him over Love. Bosh is closer to me because he was a dawg willing to do the small things.

It’s apples and oranges really. The second options isn’t what defines things. Those late 10s Lakers were deep and they also didn’t really face a great team other than 08. Just one of those luls where there were good teams but none great. The Lakers were the best and Pau was absolutely the best second option in the league, ignoring overall depth and fit.

[Carbine]

There are some that believe Pau outplayed Kobe in their title run. Bosh could never achieve such a feat, he was too jump shot reliant and softer than Pau.

[AlternativeAcc.]

There are some that believe Pau outplayed Kobe in their title run. Bosh could never achieve such a feat, he was too jump shot reliant and softer than Pau.
Pau was probably the Lakers playoff MVP in 2010.

Kobes face value stats look decent, but impact wise Pau was the better guy. Everyone who watched the 2010 playoffs knows this even if they don't wanna admit it.

Pau outplayed Dwight and KG in back 2 back finals and people (casuals) try to play revisionist history and act like those rings were a one-man show. The reality is that the 09 and 10 seasons were insanely weak and the Lakers had by far the best roster of anyone. Those rings don't really mean shit.

[Axe]

Four finals mvps > two finals mvps

Suck on this for a while op.