15+ yrs ago in 07 ISH vote Kevin Johnson as the 46th Greatest Player in NBA History

[L.Kizzle]

15+ years ago, the members of Inside Hoops voted Kevin Johnson as the 46 greatest player of All-Time in a top 100 player vote.

KJ was a nice player back in his day, maybe even a borderline Hall of Famer but back in 2007, ISH during a top 100 players of All-Time ranking, voted him as the 46 greatest player of All-Time.

Now, think of that for a minute ...

10 years earlier, he was not voted as a top 50 NBA player of All-Time. He wasn't even considered a snub.

Im 2007, ISH voted him in front of 13 players who made the NBA Top 50. Tiny Archibald, Pistol Pete, James Worthy, Hal Greer, Paul Arizin are just a few. He's almost 25 spots higher than #70, Lenny Wilkens.

He was also voted ahead of recent MVPs Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki. Apparently being a back to back MVP or being MVP and a Finalists wasn't enough to be ranked over a 3-time All-Star.

Get this, he's about 40+ spots ahead of some of his PG peers of the 90s. Mark Price and Tim Hardaway are 90 and 94, respectively.

From that list, seven players are not in the Hall.

46 KJ
89 Shawn Kemp
90 Mark Price
91 Penny Hardaway
94 Tim Hardaway
97 Tom Chambers
100 Mark Aguirre

Not sure how he jumped in front of the guys he was battling year in and year out.

[dankok8]

KJ was a beast. However he isn't very close to top 50. At this point, the top 40 spots are guys who were MVP's and/or led teams to titles. And as good as he was there are many players who are better. However he should definitely be in the HOF. He led Phoenix to two conference finals before Barkley ever got there and averaged 20/10 on solid efficiency for dang near close to a decade and led very good offenses.

[3ba11]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..

That's because it used to be common knowledge that excessive ball-domination was bad, so point guards like KJ, Isiah, or Hardaway averaged 20/10 instead of 30/10 like today's ball-dominant offenses.

The only time they approached 30 ppg was the playoffs, such as KJ averaging 28/4/9 against Hakeem's Rockets in two different 7-game series - the bed-wettings by Barkley were the only thing stopping KJ from carrying the 94' and 95' Suns to the Finals.. Otoh, Drexler didn't wet the bed in the 92' WCF, so Porter's 26/4/8 with 53% three-pointers (6 attempts) carried the Blazers to the Finals.

Furthermore, how did Pippen rank in this top 100 and how does he rank IN GENERAL compared to someone like Damian Lillard?.. This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny.. By virtue of being elite scorers and playmakers, all these guys were better than Pippen..

Ultimately, despite being the only notable 90's sidekick that lacked elite scoring, passing, clutch, or efficiency, Pippen's lack of elite performance has been inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time status and media accolade, which makes him the most overrated player of all-time - NO ONE was inflated by the winning spotlight more than Pigpen.

[3ba11]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..

That's because it used to be common knowledge that excessive ball-domination was bad, so point guards like KJ, Isiah, or Hardaway averaged 20/10 instead of 30/10 like today's ball-dominant offenses.

The only time they approached 30 ppg was the playoffs, such as KJ averaging 28/4/9 against Hakeem's Rockets in two different 7-game series - the bed-wettings by Barkley were the only thing stopping KJ from carrying the 94' and 95' Suns to the Finals.. Otoh, Drexler didn't wet the bed in the 92' WCF, so Porter's 26/4/8 with 53% three-pointers (6 attempts) carried the Blazers to the Finals.

Furthermore, how did Pippen rank in this top 100 and how does he rank IN GENERAL compared to someone like Damian Lillard?.. This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny.. By virtue of being elite scorers, playmakers, closers and leaders, all these guys were better than Pippen..

Ultimately, despite being the only notable 90's sidekick that lacked elite scoring, passing, clutch, or efficiency, Pippen's lack of elite performance has been inflated by the winning spotlight into all-time status and media accolade - this makes him the most overrated player of all-time - NO ONE was inflated by the winning spotlight more than Pigpen..

[Kblaze8855]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

[RRR3]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.
Which two posters were those

[L.Kizzle]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.So you're saying a poster has an enough influence to do the same thing with Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sure some can get JO ranked higher than Chris Webber or Alonzo Mourning.

[L.Kizzle]

Which two posters were those

Glove, and don't know who the other one was.

[highwhey]

Happened entirely because one good poster and one awful one became obsessed with him and argued he was better than everyone incessantly for months. Wasn’t a widespread opinion just one two people pushed for and argued every round till they got him selected and then bailed.

thats exactly how politics works in america

[Overdrive]

In talking about KJ, it's important to note that there were no high-scoring point guards/ball-dominators in the 80's and 90's..
[...]
This is because the 90's had a lot of elite scoring and playmaking guys like Lillard, such as Tim Hardaway, KJ, or Terry Porter, and then guys that were better than Lillard like Payton, Stockton, or Penny..

:lol:lol:lol

[90sgoat]

KJ was pretty damn good, a lot like Ja Morant, not quite Allen Iverson, but closer to AI than to Stockton.

That said, Barkley seems to not have liked him very much. I remember a show they did of old timers in which Barkley said that he wished he played with a real point guard like Stockton and the others asked if he forgot he played with KJ and Barkley made it clear that he didn't think KJ was a real point guard. I guess KJ looked for his own shot too much for Barkley's taste.

[Kblaze8855]

So you're saying a poster has an enough influence to do the same thing with Jermaine O'Neal? I'm sure some can get JO ranked higher than Chris Webber or Alonzo Mourning.

I’m saying when your premise is based on a forum ranking that has like 10 or 15 consistent voters and two of them go on a campaign suggesting one guy should be next over and over and over and over and over and over after one of them runs a probably year-long “KJ is top 40” campaign it isn’t really an accurate result.

I was running some of those random list we used to make. All it takes is one obsessive type to keep saying the same name. I feel like I remember one of them actually telling me they didn’t think he was the best player not voted in yet, but they did think he was top 40 so they were going for that accuracy because he was better than some already in.

Just weirdo biased shit that throws off the whole thing. Always happens. I remember one of them somebody was voting for John Havlicek, but Kevin Garnett got in and then they switched to voting for Dirk. I asked them why Dirk was better than John now but he wasn’t the last few rounds and they said once Kevin Garnett got in they weren’t going to watch Dirk be way behind.

We are not serious people.

[Kblaze8855]

Glove, and don't know who the other one was.


GMAT. Here is Gobb in a conversation from 2008 about Chris Paul vs KJ





Where is Glove_20 to spam GMAT's email account with this thread link? lol

"GMAT!!! Its gametime. *insert link*"

"GMAT!!! Where are you? You there? *insert link* 25 replies so far. They have no clue!!!"

"GMAT!!! You read my last 2 msgs, I checked. Says you read them. Why would they lie to me? You better have a damn good excuse why you're ignoring me. Answer me!"

"GMAT!!! Its Glove_20 again, sorry for the last email. I got besides myself. I APOLOGIZE. Do you accept, yes_ no_ maybe_ CHECK ONE. Please."

"GMAT!!! Glove_20 again, maybe you arent getting these. But here is the link *insert link*"




This was common back then




KJ has gotten overrated on ISH. People give him the respect he deserves for being underrated by the general media, but sometimes people go too far. He was a great, great player. Some people make it seem like he's arguably the GOAT.





One guy who was an old suns fan Convinced one crazy person and they had a campaign that briefly had Kevin Johnson as one of the most discussed players on here.

[Kblaze8855]

This is what we were dealing with for what I now see was 2 years:




LOL, you're the one who doesn't understand, because until the late eighties, Isiah Thomas ran the run-and-gun in Detroit (the Pistons averaged 117.1 points in 1984, 116.0 in 1985, 114.1 in 1986, and 111.2 in 1987, and they took part in the highest-scoring game in NBA history on December 13, 1983, a 186-184 victory over Denver in which Thomas scored 47 points). While running the run-and-gun, he posted the same kinds of scoring and playmaking averages as K.J. in the run-and-gun, but with less efficiency.

Isiah Thomas, 1984-1987 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.0 points, 11.5 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.2 steals, .467 field goal percentage, .774 free throw percentage, 3.9 turnovers, 2.97:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson, 1989-1992 (his four-season stretch of greatest productivity):

21.2 points, 11.1 assists, 3.8 rebounds, 1.6 steals, .500 field goal percentage, .843 free throw percentage, 3.6 turnovers, 3.07:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

In their greatest four-season stretches, Thomas' assists-to-turnovers ratio proved a little worse than K.J.'s, he averaged more turnovers per game and, more importantly, he was still much more inefficient from the field and the free throw line. What Detroit head coach Chuck Daly discovered was that because of Thomas' relative inefficiencies (relative to other superstars of his era), it did not pay to have him shooting as often and dominating the offense as much in a fast-paced game. The Pistons could only win a championship if Daly turned the roster into a defense-oriented squad that could stymie the opposition and thus compensate for his leader's inefficiencies. Henceforth, out went the offensive-minded Kelly Tripucka, in came defense-first players such as Dennis Rodman and John Salley, and by 1988, the Pistons were averaging fewer than 110 points per game and reaching the NBA Finals.

You're the one who cannot comprehend context if you simplistically break out the "two rings to none" argument. As I explained earlier in one of my posts a few minutes ago, basketball is a team sport, not an individual one. Isiah Thomas, like Bob Cousy, won championships not just because he was a great player and a clutch player (which he was), but because he enjoyed the defensive support that could compensate for his inefficiencies and that is typically necessary to win championships. Thomas won two rings to K.J.'s none largely because his team context was more conducive to championship basketball, not because he was necessarily the greater individual player. As I've noted, in 1998, The Sporting News named both Thomas and K.J. as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s. Thomas and K.J. played in three career Game Sevens each, and here were their respective statistics in those winner-take-all Game Sevens.

Isiah Thomas: 18.7 points, 9.0 assists, 4.0 rebounds, 2.0 steals, 0.3 blocks, .368 field goal percentage (19.0 FGA), .200 three-point field goal percentage (1.7 FGA), .765 free throw percentage (5.7 FTA), 2.0 turnovers, 4.50:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

Kevin Johnson: 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, 2.3 rebounds, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .424 field goal percentage (19.7 FGA), .250 three-point field goal percentage (1.3 FGA), .933 free throw percentage (15.0 FTA), 2.7 turnovers, 3.75:1.00 assists-to-turnovers

And all three of K.J.'s Game Sevens came with Barkley on his team, whereas Thomas never played with someone who dominated the ball quite to Barkley's degree. And, sure, Thomas had the bum ankle in Game Seven of the 1988 NBA Finals versus the Lakers, but then people fault K.J. for getting hurt. (By the way, Thomas' and K.J.'s teams each went 1-2 in those Game Sevens, again proving that basketball is a team sport. In the two Game Sevens that K.J.'s Suns lost, Johnson averaged 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage, shooting 28-29 from the line. However, no matter how great the individual player's performance, it is still a team sport.)

So K.J. was every bit the clutch player that Thomas was, and don't be a "rings whore" who ignores team context. Also, after Barkley arrived in Phoenix, K.J. could not run-and-gun as much because the Suns moved to a post-up offense, and as the 1990s progressed, the entire NBA became more slowly paced, especially compared to Thomas' statistical heyday in the trigger-happy mid-1980s. Don't pretend that you comprehend context if you don't.

[Kblaze8855]

Post 2:



K.J. had a lot to do with some of those All-Star appearances by his teammates. Hornacek made his only All-Star Game playing next to K.J. in 1992, even though he later spent six-and-a-half seasons alongside John Stockton in Utah's backcourt. Dan Majerle never averaged as many as 11.0 points in his seven seasons after leaving K.J., immediately dropping from 15.6 with Phoenix in 1995 to 10.6 in Cleveland in 1996. Part of that decline can be explained by Majerle playing fewer minutes on a new team, but he was still just 30 years old and could have played more had his new coaching staff deemed him effective enough. Without K.J., though, that wasn't the case, even though Majerle had joined one of the better point guards of the day in Terrell Brandon (and later Tim Hardaway in Miami). Still, he couldn't come close to duplicating his success alongside K.J. in Phoenix.

As for Tom Chambers, he'd made one All-Star Game in seven seasons prior to joining K.J., but he then made the All-Star team three years in a row as soon as he started running with Johnson. Check out these K.J.-Chambers hook-ups:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/for...c&daysprune=-1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_jBW...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SN4-b...elated&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDyBS...elated&search=

And Eddie Johnson received his only NBA honor (1989 Sixth Man of the Year) playing next to K.J.

Let me also quote a recent post of mine on another board to reveal more about the K.J.-Chambers dynamic and how K.J. had made the Sixers' "Barkley haul" (Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) seem quite attractive at the time.

...

In fact, Tom Chambers once called K.J. "the guy who made me the player I am," at Chambers' own Ring of Honor ceremony in 1999.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/column_...av=ArticleList

Playing with K.J. allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-season scoring average record two years in a row with 25.7 in 1989 and 27.2 in 1990, the latter mark remaining a franchise record. Playing with K.J. also allowed Chambers to set the Suns' single-game scoring record with 60 points, just a month after scoring 56.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19900324.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...W19900218.html

Conversely, Shawn Kemp never averaged 20.0 points per game with Payton, a mark that he surely would have reached with K.J. Or look at the three players whom Phoenix dealt to Philadelphia in the Charles Barkley blockbuster of June 1992. On the surface, it seemed as if the Sixers were receiving quite a haul of talent, three starters off a 53-win team (Jeff Hornacek, Tim Perry, and Andrew Lang) who had shot the following respective field goal percentages during the '92 season: .512, .523, .522. Three starters off a 53-win team who each shot well over 50% from the field should have helped the Sixers. However, as Philadelphia soon found out, those players were not nearly as effective once removed from K.J., even though Hornacek was a fine guard either way. Indeed, in Philadelphia in '93, Hornacek, Perry, and Lang shot just .470, .468, and .425 from the field, respectively. Perhaps the Sixers should have listened to Clyde Drexler after Perry scored 27 points in Game Three of the 1992 Western Conference Semifinals, with K.J. posting 16 points and 16 assists after going for 35 points (including 18 in a row, 22 in the third quarter, and 33 in the second half, shooting 16-16 from the free throw line) in Game Two and before recording 35 points and 14 assists in Game Four. Here was Drexler's quotation in the Los Angeles Times.

Johnson and Hornacek Put Run, Fun in Suns; [Home Edition] Los Angeles Times (pre-1997 Fulltext). Los Angeles, Calif.: May 10, 1992. pg. 5

Kevin Johnson, who runs the Phoenix offense, had 16 points and 16 assists.

"We ran up and down the court, and I found (Tim) Perry open, and pretty soon it just opened up for everybody," Johnson said

... "I don't think we stopped Kevin (Johnson) because he was able to get the ball to Perry and those other guys. I believe he might as well have scored Perry's 27 points," Drexler said.

K.J. actually made Perry seem like an attractive commodity to Philadelphia.

I'll also quote Hornacek's letter to K.J. in 2001:

I also want to thank you for helping to make my career what it was. I wasn't happy at first ... Cotton made you the point guard without even having to beat me out, but obviously he knew what he was doing! I learned quickly, as did everyone else who has had the privilege of playing along side of you, that my game would benefit from having you at point guard. You are one of few players who can elevate the play of those around you.

http://www.nba.com/suns/news/kjohnso...av=ArticleList

[Kblaze8855]

And he continued:




As for where K.J. would rank all-time, that's really a subjective question, but certainly a case can be made for the 21-40 range. Consider some of the elite circles that K.J. travels in when it comes to statistical performance.

*Kevin Johnson is one of the seven players in NBA historyto have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in the same season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Michael Adams, and Tim Hardaway).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points and 10.0 assists in three consecutive seasons (along with Oscar Robertson and Isiah Thomas).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have averaged at least 12.0 assists in a season (along with Kevin Porter, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history to have averaged at least 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have averaged at least 10.0 assists in four different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and John Stockton).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the six players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in a season (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points and 11.0 assists in two different seasons (along with Oscar Robertson, Isiah Thomas, and Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to recorded at least 30 points and 12 assists in three consecutive games (along with Oscar Robertson, Tiny Archibald, and Dwyane Wade).

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...O19890224.html (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/PHO19890224.html)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...L19890226.html (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/LAL19890226.html)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/...R19890228.html (http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/POR19890228.html)

*Kevin Johnson is one of the five players in NBA history to have recorded at least 25 assists in a single game (along with Scott Skiles, John Stockton, Nate McMillan, and Jason Kidd).

http://www.basketballreference.com/t...9940406&tm=PHO (http://www.basketballreference.com/teams/boxscore.htm?yr=1993&b=19940406&tm=PHO)

*Kevin Johnson is one of the four players in NBA history to have averaged at least 15.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson, John Stockton, and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the three players in NBA history to have averaged at least 18.0 points, 11.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson and Steve Nash).

*Kevin Johnson is one of the two players in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .500 field goal percentage in the same season (along with Magic Johnson).

*Kevin Johnson is the only player in NBA history to have averaged at least 20.0 points, 10.0 assists, a .500 field goal percentage, and 2.0 steals in the same season.


Then consider that in 1998, the Sporting News named K.J., along with Isiah Thomas, as its All-Playoffs Second Team guards for the decade of the 1990s (behind Michael Jordan and Clyde Drexler on the First Team). K.J. set new NBA records for minutes played in an NBA Finals game (62, in Game Three of the 1993 NBA Finals) and consecutive made free throws in a playoff game (21, in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, since tied by Paul Pierce in Game One of the 2003 Eastern Conference First Round). In three career Game Sevens, K.J. averaged 31.0 points, 10.0 assists, and a .933 free throw percentage. In short, he was a big-game player in addition to all of his elite statistical accomplishments (in six career winner-take-all playoff games, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.3 assists).

To quote Pat Riley after Game Five of the 1990 Western Conference Semifinals, in which K.J. had scored 37 points (14-23 FG, 9-10 FT) and delivered 8 assists to lead Phoenix's elimination of L.A., "Kevin Johnson is a unique player." In sending the 63-win Lakers to their earliest playoff exit since 1981, K.J. had averaged 29.7 points and 11.3 assists in the last three games of the series, including 33.5 points and 12.0 assists in the last two. In fourteen games against the eventual champion Houston Rockets in the 1994 and 1995 playoffs, K.J. averaged 27.2 points and 9.6 assists, including 35.5 points, 10.5 assists, and a .967 free throw percentage (28-29 FT) in the two Game Sevens. As Hakeem Olajuwon wrote on page 282 of his 1996 autobiography, Living the Dream, about K.J. in Game Seven of the 1995 Western Conference Semifinals, "Every time I looked K.J. was driving. When he wasn't penetrating he was pulling up and hitting his jump shots. He was just incredible. It's a trial just being on the same court with someone who is playing so well."

Or consider a couple quotes regarding Game Four of that series, in Houston. Behind K.J.'s 43 points (18-24 FG, 7-7 FT), 9 assists, 6 rebounds, and 3 steals, the Suns had rallied out of a 15-point third quarter hole and squeezed out a 114-110 road playoff victory. In the fourth quarter of that game, NBC play-by-play man Dick Enberg stated the following:

Kevin Johnson is playing like he invented the game of basketball.

Or consider the following quotation from Suns' center Joe Kleine afterward, as reported on page 37 of the May 22, 1995 edition of Sports Illustrated:

When Kevin plays like that, you just get out of his way. Go where he tells you to go and then just stand there and watch the master.




That topic had seven consecutive posts like that from the same person who gradually radicalized an already crazy Gary Payton fan and they both went into every discussion and insisted Kevin Johnson and Gary Payton were top 40 all time for two years.

that topic alone was 221 posts of that kind of shit. All because I made a video to show people more of Kevin Johnson because they had already been talking about him incessantly and a lot of people we had at the time didn’t remember him well. So I made a thing to help them out and they got on me for not praising him highly enough in the topic I made to praise him.

Long story short….the biggest KJ fan on earth convinced the biggest GP fan to be the second biggest KJ fan and they skewed the rankings for a while.

[RRR3]

Where would you have ranked Kevin Johnson all time back then (not now)?

[L.Kizzle]

And he continued:





That topic had seven consecutive posts like that from the same person who gradually radicalized an already crazy Gary Payton fan and they both went into every discussion and insisted Kevin Johnson and Gary Payton were top 40 all time for two years.

that topic alone was 221 posts of that kind of shit. All because I made a video to show people more of Kevin Johnson because they had already been talking about him incessantly and a lot of people we had at the time didn’t remember him well. So I made a thing to help them out and they got on me for not praising him highly enough in the topic I made to praise him.

Long story short….the biggest KJ fan on earth convinced the biggest GP fan to be the second biggest KJ fan and they skewed the rankings for a while.

Dammit, so you're responsible for Kevin Johnson almost making the top 40 lol.

[L.Kizzle]

Where would you have ranked Kevin Johnson all time back then (not now)?
Not in the top 50. Wherever Mitch and Timmy Hardaway are he should be close by.

He shouldn't be voted in front of Alex English.

[3ba11]

Pippen probably wasn't top 30 in this poll because it was done long before the recent fake goat debate.

Payton had more all-defense, All-NBA and was a better scorer, passer, shooter, clutch, and leader.. The only reason that he isn't ranked ahead of Pippen in most current polls is because he wasn't inflated by the winning spotlight like Pippen was, so he didn't get undeserved media accolade and all-time status.

[SouBeachTalents]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2206080013410351.jpeg

[L.Kizzle]

Here is the list from the summer of 2007.
PS. No Bron, Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, etc. They had just completed their 4th season. Needed 5 or more seasons to make the cut.

ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre

[RRR3]

Here is the list from the summer of 2007.
PS. No Bron, Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, etc. They had just completed their 4th season. Needed 5 or more seasons to make the cut.

ISH 100 Greatest NBA Players of All-Time
1. Michael Jordan
2. Wilt Chamberlain
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Earvin 'Magic' Johnson
5. Larry Bird
6. Bill Russell
7. Shaquille O'Neal
8. Oscar Robertson
9. Hakeem Olajuwon
10. Tim Duncan
11. Jerry West
12. Julius Erving
13. Moses Malone
14. Elgin Baylor
15. Bob Pettit
16. John Havlicek
17. Karl Malone
18. George Mikan
19. David Robinson
20. Isiah Thomas
21. Charles Barkley
22. John Stockton
23. Bob Cousy
24. Kobe Bryant
25. Rick Barry
26. Scottie Pippen
27. Clyde Drexler
28. Gary Payton
29. Willis Reed
30. Patrick Ewing
31. Allen Iverson
32. Walt Frazier
33. Elvin Hayes
34. George Gervin
35. Jason Kidd
36. Dave Cowens
37. Kevin Garnett
38. Bob McAdoo
39. Nate Thurmond
40. Wes Unseld
41. Kevin McHale
42. Dolph Schayes
43. Dominique Wilkins
44. Bill Walton
45. Sam Jones
46. Kevin Johnson
47. Dennis Rodman
48. Dirk Nowitzki
49. Steve Nash
50. Billy Cunningham
-----
51. Nate 'Tiny' Archibald
52. 'Pistol' Pete Maravich
53. Tracy McGrady
54. Hal Greer
55. Jerry Lucas
56. Robert Parish
57. Earl 'the Pearl' Monroe
58. Bernard King
59. Artis Gilmore
60. Alex English
61. James Worthy
62. Joe Dumars
63. Bill Sharman
64. Reggie Miller
65. Paul Arizin
66. Sidney Moncrief
67. Dave DeBusschere
68. Dave Bing
69. David Thompson
70. Lenny Wilkens
71. Adrian Dantley
72. Bob Lanier
73. Neil Johntson
74. Walt Bellamy
75. Vince Carter
76. Spencer Haywood
77. Ray Allen
78. Dennis Johnson
79. Paul Pierce
80. Dikembe Mutombo
81. Connie Hawkins
82. Chris Webber
83. Chris Mullin
84. Grant Hill
85. Mitch Richmond
86. Dan Issel
87. 'Jumpin' Joe Fulks
88. Alonzo Mourning
89. Shawn Kemp
90. Mark Price
91. Anfernee 'Penny' Hardaway
92. Tommy Heinsohn
93. George McGinnis
94. Tim Hardaway
95. Mel Daniels
96. Bob Davies
97. Tom Chambers
98. Maurice Cheeks
99. Ben Wallace
100. Mark Aguirre
Fascinating to see such a massive discrepancy between Duncan and Kobe.

[tontoz]

Like a lot of small guards back then his career was pretty short. He was a rookie at 21 and washed at 31.

Dynamic taking it to the basket. Didn't shoot 3s much but was a very good foul shooter so i suspect he could have shot 3s well if he focused on it. Even without 3s his scoring efficiency was very good for that time.