How good was Tracy McGrady actually? (vid)

[90sgoat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQH27-vYsTY

I think this video does a good job of showing how good Tracy McGrady was and how his personality and bad luck left him as a footnote in NBA history, when imo, he could easily have been considered as good, or even better, than someone like Durant.

When looking at this short doc, it seems like his personality got in the way, couldn't co-exist with Vince in cold Toronto. Didn't have the patience to wait for a draft pick that turned into Dwight Howard.

That said, McGrady was for real and youngins today probably underrate him. He was Lebron before Lebron. The original big ball handling wing. Could shoot, drive and pass.

There was a time, a short time, when people on forums would discuss Kobe vs McGrady vs Lebron in that order.

[Carbine]

I'll take Kobe's word on this one. Best player he ever played against.

[90sgoat]

I'll take Kobe's word on this one. Best player he ever played against.

Yes it say so in the video.

Kobe played against them all so he'd know.

McGrady was definitely more skilled than Lebron. Had the 3 point shot, including the dribble up, no pass Harden step back. McGrady paved the way.

Lebron was a better passer and defender, but McGrady was better at everything else on offense.

[SouBeachTalents]

I've said it before, but I don't know if any superstar in history had worse teammate luck than T-Mac did. He played with legitimately the worst supporting cast ever in Orlando (if someone could name a worse one I'd like to hear it) Then when he gets to Houston he & Yao are never able to stay healthy, with Yao missing 92 games (including playoffs) over the final 3 seasons they played together.

The worst part is, he'll forever live with that first round stigma despite him consistently producing at a superstar clip; from 2001-08 he averaged 30/7/7 (albeit on 52%TS) in the playoffs. So contrary to his reputation, he was not an Embiid or Harden playoff underachiever.

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.

[90sgoat]

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.

Yeah, it's a travesty how little his peers and media have wanted to keep his memory. Suggests he wasn't well liked.

He definitely was a huge talent and played a lot of his career in a way more difficult era for wings.

I'll take McGrady over Harden, Durant etc, but most people would think that was cray.

[90sgoat]

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.

Yeah, it's a travesty how little his peers and media have wanted to keep his memory. Suggests he wasn't well liked.

He definitely was a huge talent and played a lot of his career in a way more difficult era for wings.

I'll take McGrady over Harden, Durant etc, but most people would think that was cray.

[Phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQH27-vYsTY

That said, McGrady was for real and youngins today probably underrate him. He was Lebron before Lebron. The original big ball handling wing. Could shoot, drive and pass.



I would say Grant Hill was the first 'Lebron before Lebron' moreso than Tmac. Tmac's scoring 'bag' at his best exceeded Lebron's and Grant's, and he was more of a shooter than both( of course Lebrons shooting improved in his later years). He also had a much smoother looking game than Lebron( and compared to like 95% of any player ever).

I agree with SBT on his luck. Played with absolute dogshit in Orlando, then his health took a nosedive in Houston coupled with Yao never staying healthy( that duo as far as potential should have been the best wing-big man combo since Shaq/Kobe but it just never panned out). He was actually already having back issues in 2003, the season everyone remembers. Imagine if he were totally healthy. He was a legit opponent for Kobe but his body just never geld up( and he wasn't as obsessed competitively as Mamba was).

[ShawkFactory]

Favorite player ever. But he’s not without some faults.

Of course he was incredibly unlucky but he also wasn’t the type of personality to go out and really make his own luck. He tended to just let things come to him on the court and he wasn’t really a leader.

However, the lack of patience given his situation was completely fair. He was very tight with Kobe and was ultimately always compared to him and I think he was really gunning to be in that type of position and couldn’t wait. As all of us would be probably.

[pandiani17]

Favorite player ever. But he’s not without some faults.

Of course he was incredibly unlucky but he also wasn’t the type of personality to go out and really make his own luck. He tended to just let things come to him on the court and he wasn’t really a leader.

However, the lack of patience given his situation was completely fair. He was very tight with Kobe and was ultimately always compared to him and I think he was really gunning to be in that type of position and couldn’t wait. As all of us would be probably.

This. In Orlando he even had the worst record in the league, when he was talent-wise maybe among the two best players in the league (with Kobe). Another type of player never would let that happen to him.

[RRR3]

I've said it before, but I don't know if any superstar in history had worse teammate luck than T-Mac did. He played with legitimately the worst supporting cast ever in Orlando (if someone could name a worse one I'd like to hear it) Then when he gets to Houston he & Yao are never able to stay healthy, with Yao missing 92 games (including playoffs) over the final 3 seasons they played together.

The worst part is, he'll forever live with that first round stigma despite him consistently producing at a superstar clip; from 2001-08 he averaged 30/7/7 (albeit on 52%TS) in the playoffs. So contrary to his reputation, he was not an Embiid or Harden playoff underachiever.

Despite him winning 2 scoring titles, making All-NBA 7x and finishing top 10 in MVP voting 6 times, he didn't even make the 75th anniversary team, the biggest snub imo besides Dwight.
52%TS in the playoffs for that era isn't really bad, especially on his volume. And yes, dude had the worst luck ever.

[Indian guy]

He's overly romanticized because of that 1 outlier season he had in 2002-2003. Not that he wasn't good, just nowhere near as good people think he was.

[ShawkFactory]

He's overly romanticized because of that 1 outlier season he had in 2002-2003. Not that he wasn't good, just nowhere near as good people think he was.

He started having the back issues the next year. He was 24 in 2003 and was clearly reaching or at his peak of what he was capable of. There’s a reason he was romanticized because he was an absolute dawg and a nightmare to guard. Even before that.

[Indian guy]

He started having the back issues the next year. He was 24 in 2003 and was clearly reaching or at his peak of what he was capable of. There’s a reason he was romanticized because he was an absolute dawg and a nightmare to guard. Even before that.

None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.

[StrongLurk]

He was a true superstar at his peak.

Someone like Tatum has still not reached T-Mac's peak.

[RRR3]

None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.
He didn't overachieve, he literally had scoliosis and was a ticking time bomb from the moment he was drafted. Do your research before spewing bullshit.

[tontoz]

Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.

[DJMcDonald]

Absolute legend.

[tpols]

A lot of people talk about desirable cities to work in, and in OPs video Mcgrady said Toronto was cold and depressing. And he ran back to Florida to escape it.

[Phoenix]

None of his other seasons come anywhere close to 2003 statistically though. He clearly overachieved that year.

He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003. That was his 5th year and he was turning 24. It's more likely that we got a glimpse of his prime that year moreso than it being an overachieving thing. The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level, etc. I think it's fair to assume a healthy Tmac would have similarly exploded, if anything he may have been up there with Kobe dropping 35ppg in 2005/6.

[tpols]

Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.

[tpols]

Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.

[DJMcDonald]

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.

Very well put:cheers:

[DJMcDonald]

https://youtu.be/l2Znpf7nl_0?si=Xp1GjoMUf_KRbXXs

[Indian guy]

He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003.

He was healthy ages 21-25 from 2001-2005, but only 1 of those seasons looks different from the rest.

2001 26.8 ppg .521 TS%
2002 25.6 ppg .532 TS%
2003 32.0 ppg .564 TS%
2004 28.0 ppg .526 TS%
2005 25.7 ppg .526 TS%

If he peaked at the mere age of 23 in 2003, then 2004 and 2005 should've at least been in a similar vein as 2003. But he fell way off from 2004 itself, which clearly points towards 2003 being an outlier. If you look at his shooting splits from outside 10 feet in 2003, they are all well above what he shot the rest of his career.


The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level,

The new rules were passed starting with the 04-05 season and T-Mac was healthy that year. He didn't come anywhere near his 2003 production.

[Phoenix]

He was healthy ages 21-25 from 2001-2005, but only 1 of those seasons looks different from the rest.

2001 26.8 ppg .521 TS%
2002 25.6 ppg .532 TS%
2003 32.0 ppg .564 TS%
2004 28.0 ppg .526 TS%
2005 25.7 ppg .526 TS%

If he peaked at the mere age of 23 in 2003, then 2004 and 2005 should've at least been in a similar vein as 2003. But he fell way off from 2004 itself, which clearly points towards 2003 being an outlier. If you look at his shooting splits from outside 10 feet in 2003, they are all well above what he shot the rest of his career.



The new rules were passed starting with the 04-05 season and T-Mac was healthy that year. He didn't come anywhere near his 2003 production.

It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play). His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:

From 2004 onwards his back really started affecting his play, if you watched back then. He lost alot of arch on his jumper and it became more of a line drive. He didn't just mysteriously become worse as a player when the NBA changed the rules to specifically cater to freeing up perimeter play.

[RRR3]

It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play). His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:

From 2004 onwards his back really started affecting his play, if you watched back then. He lost alot of arch on his jumper and it became more of a line drive. He didn't just mysteriously become worse as a player when the NBA changed the rules to specifically cater to freeing up perimeter play.
He's dimwitted and has a hate boner for TMac, nothing you say will get through

[Nowoco]

One of the most talented players ever to play the game but has almost nothing to show for it. A combination of bad luck, injuries and unhealthy teammates have undermined his legacy.

It's utterly ridiculous he wasn't on the top 75 list. Think how many players you would take T-Mac before from that list. He was arguably the best player in the league at one point.

The strange thing is, as has been mentioned, he doesnt get anywhere near the love today as someone like Penny Hardaway. Their careers are somewhat similar in terms of talent/health but because of T-Mac's lack of playoff success, he is the forgotten man. I bet it bothers him deep inside. He was even denied a token ring thanks to Ray Allen.

[Phoenix]

He's dimwitted and has a hate boner for TMac, nothing you say will get through

Funny thing is, even if you remove the 'outlier'( his words) 2003 season, only Kobe was a couple percentage points higher in 2001 and 2002 and he had the benefit of Shaq consuming a massive share of the defense's attention. Vince Carter was 54% in 2000, 55% in 2001, 53% in 2002, etc. I don't even need to go into Iverson's TS% numbers. The time period is universally considered a tough defensive era and none of the main perimeter guys were hitting high efficiency numbers. In 2001, the league average was .518; Tmac's was .521 dropping 27ppg with a complete dearth of talent around him.

[tontoz]

In his prime he played in the toughest defensive era in NBA history ~ '99-'04. His talent was clearly better than a lot of stars today.

Guy was basically a 6'9 SGA or Tatum with far more creativity and fluidity.


Talent and production are two different things. Yes Mcgrady had big time talent but his production didn't measure up aside from his outlier year in 02-03.

[SouBeachTalents]

Mcgrady loved shooting jumpers, but wasn't that good at making them. Very talented guy but his midrange game was pretty weak.

When his jumper was on he was ungaurdable because his release point was so high. But most of the time his jumper was pretty average.
From 2001-05 he shot 40% from 10-16 feet and 42% from 16 feet-3 point, which is nearly identical to what the other elite wings like Kobe, Pierce, Allen & Vince were shooting from midrange during that timeframe.

[ShawkFactory]

He was pretty clearly trending upwards from 2001( when he joined Orlando) to 2003. That was his 5th year and he was turning 24. It's more likely that we got a glimpse of his prime that year moreso than it being an overachieving thing. The thing is, two years later the league changed the perimeter rules which is what led to all those banner scoring numbers from the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Arenas, Dirk, Nash elevating to MVP level, etc. I think it's fair to assume a healthy Tmac would have similarly exploded, if anything he may have been up there with Kobe dropping 35ppg in 2005/6.

Thank you. Was going to say almost exactly this lol

[tontoz]

From 2001-05 he shot 40% from 10-16 feet and 42% from 16 feet-3 point, which is nearly identical to what the other elite wings like Kobe, Pierce, Allen & Vince were shooting from midrange during that timeframe.


For his career 33.6% of Mcgradys shot attempts were from 16-23 feet. By comparison:

Kobe 27.1% (whose shot selection sucked also)
Vince 23.2%
Pierce 21.6%
Ray 17.6%

So while the percentages were comparable, the volume wasn't so the net effect hurt Mcgradys efficiency. He loved his pull-up j too much.

[Indian guy]

It's pretty widely known that his 2003 season was his last 'healthy' season ( and by that, I mean the last season where his back didn't dramatically affect his play).

T-Mac was my favorite player in the league from 2002-2005 and this is not true at all. He bulked up coming into the 2004 season and was a little bit less explosive, but that was about it. Mind you, he did have lingering back issues pretty much his whole career, but they didn't become severe until 2006. He wasn't missing chunks of games due to his back prior to 2006. Enjoyed good health for the most part from 2001-2005 (averaging 75 games per season). Compare that to 61 games per season from 2006-2008.


His TS% was treading upwards from 2001 up to 2003, in other words he got better from 2001 at age 22 to 2003 at age 24. Nothing odd about that, he got better. :confusedshrug:

He was born May of 1979, so he turned 21 in May of 2000 and played his entire first season in Orlando as a 21 year old. 22 in 2002 and 23 in 2003. Yes, it's not odd that he took a big leap in 2003, but more so that he never came close to achieving that level again despite being relatively healthy. Nobody starts declining at 24. When you take a bigger overview of his career and see that he pretty much posted the same numbers from 2001-2008 with the exception of 2003, the only logical conclusion is that he massively overachieved that year. Outlier is the apt term for it.

[Phoenix]

1)T-Mac was my favorite player in the league from 2002-2005 and this is not true at all. He bulked up coming into the 2004 season and was a little bit less explosive, but that was about it. Mind you, he did have lingering back issues pretty much his whole career, but they didn't become severe until 2006. He wasn't missing chunks of games due to his back prior to 2006. Enjoyed good health for the most part from 2001-2005 (averaging 75 games per season). Compare that to 61 games per season from 2006-2008.



2)He was born May of 1979, so he turned 21 in May of 2000 and played his entire first season in Orlando as a 21 year old. 22 in 2002 and 23 in 2003. Yes, it's not odd that he took a big leap in 2003, but more so that he never came close to achieving that level again despite being relatively healthy. Nobody starts declining at 24. When you take a bigger overview of his career and see that he pretty much posted the same numbers from 2001-2008 with the exception of 2003, the only logical conclusion is that he massively overachieved that year. Outlier is the apt term for it.

1)He was also mine at the time and that very much was true, but this is a pretty pointless 'yes he was,no he wasn't' part of the discussion. Yes he did bulk up, and that may have worsened or accelerated his back woes, but the tone of your comments suggests he just got worse as a player with the back having little/no impact on that, which is silly. He was laying on his stomach on the sidelines to relieve his back in 2003, the 'outlier' season. If he was your favorite player surely you would recall that. There is absolutely no way you put 2003 Tmac( as far as the state of his health) in 2006 and he's gonna be worse in terms of the numbers.

2) You act as if he completely fell off. Yes, his TS% dropped back to his pre 2003 level but he was still averaging 28ppg. In 2005, the first year in Houston, Yao was on the team so he wasn't going to drop 28-32ppg in that situation( on top of his worsening back) and generally had more talent to work with. Overachieve just seems like a really weird way to frame what happened, especially since you both acknowledge his back condition while underplaying the degree to which it impacted his play after 2003. His back injury was chronic, you simply weren't going to see 'that' guy again and it's a mini-miracle he even got to the level he did get to. To overachieve suggests he just happened to play better than he really was, a season long 'fluke' apparently, and 2001/2002/2004/2005 we saw how good he 'really' was. Just a really...odd argument from my POV.

EDIT: in 2001, he was 2nd team all-NBA and 6th in MVP. In 2002, 1st team all-NBA and 4th in MVP. In 2003, he duplicated those 2002 accolades. Dude was one of the very best players in the league from the moment he touched down in Orlando, so I don't see how he overachieved in 2003. Scored a bit more on higher efficiency, ok. But overachieve when his accolades were basically the same as the prior two seasons?

[eliteballer]

He's LeBron without Roids and a better jumpshot and handles.

[ShawkFactory]

He's LeBron without Roids and a better jumpshot and handles.

:lol

You continue to be a very weird guy.

[L.Kizzle]

T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.

[tpols]

T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.


His 13 points in 35 seconds is probably the clutchest sequence I've ever seen.


https://youtu.be/s4QuUYG6kxI?si=fOhgXvc9ArJ_gB2J

[90sgoat]

A lot of people talk about desirable cities to work in, and in OPs video Mcgrady said Toronto was cold and depressing. And he ran back to Florida to escape it.

Don't blame him at all tbh.

[Im Still Ballin]

T Macs Houston career is very underrated. Four of the five seasons he's in Houston, they won 50+ games. Something he couldn't do in Orlando.

Only this is he was on the west coast. And 50+ wins leads you to a 5th seed in the west.

Three All-Star selections, an All-NBA 2nd team selection, two All-NBA 3rd team selections, and some MVP votes here and there. Not bad for five injury-interrupted seasons. That's not bad, wouldn't you say? The league was showing him respect in the moment.

Perhaps it's the lack of consideration in retrospect. Is that what you're getting at? I agree with your general sentiment.

[90sgoat]

Three All-Star selections, an All-NBA 2nd team selection, two All-NBA 3rd team selections, and some MVP votes here and there. Not bad for five injury-interrupted seasons. That's not bad, wouldn't you say? The league was showing him respect in the moment.

Perhaps it's the lack of consideration in retrospect. Is that what you're getting at? I agree with your general sentiment.

McGrady is the millennial Nique.

No one really cares about either, I don't really care about Nique, but everyone who watched Nique care.

McGrady has crazy talent and physical gifts. He was a victim of being too early, had he come into the league today, there would have been better understanding of his game and personality. I don't think Luka would have it easy back in the day either.

[L.Kizzle]

Three All-Star selections, an All-NBA 2nd team selection, two All-NBA 3rd team selections, and some MVP votes here and there. Not bad for five injury-interrupted seasons. That's not bad, wouldn't you say? The league was showing him respect in the moment.

Perhaps it's the lack of consideration in retrospect. Is that what you're getting at? I agree with your general sentiment.
I'm saying when you mention T-Mac, you hear about his Orlando career. His Houston time is rarely is never on the table.
He was also part of the 3rd largest won streak of All-Time (I think it's still behind the Lakers ans Heat.)

[Im Still Ballin]

McGrady is the millennial Nique.

No one really cares about either, I don't really care about Nique, but everyone who watched Nique care.

McGrady has crazy talent and physical gifts. He was a victim of being too early, had he come into the league today, there would have been better understanding of his game and personality. I don't think Luka would have it easy back in the day either.

People are saying AJ Dybantsa looks like McGrady.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlLwx9433Dk&pp=ygULYWogZHliYW50c2E%3D


I'm saying when you mention T-Mac, you hear about his Orlando career. His Houston time is rarely is never on the table.
He was also part of the 3rd largest won streak of All-Time (I think it's still behind the Lakers ans Heat.)

:bowdown:


With new coach Rick Adelman on the sidelines, replacing Jeff Van Gundy and his defensive-minded scheme with a high-paced offensive style, Houston came into the 2007-08 season with high hopes. The team struggled out the gates, though, heading into their last game in January with a record of 24-20.

Few, if any, could have predicted what would happen next. The Rockets would win their next 12 games — nine by double digits — before receiving the crushing news about Yao’s injury.

Rather than wallow, Houston instead rallied behind the team’s remaining All-Star, guard Tracy McGrady. He would average 24.3 points, 5.3 assists and 5.4 rebounds after Yao’s injury, and was helped by a supporting cast that far exceeded expectations.

Journeyman guard Rafer Alston played the best basketball of his career, averaging 15.7 points and 6.6 assists. Veteran defender Shane Battier stepped up with 10.4 points and 5.5 rebounds, Mutombo and Hayes combined to offset the loss of Yao, and rookie guard Kyle Lowry stepped up with multiple double-digit point performances throughout the streak.

Houston would dominate the last 10 games of the win streak by an average of 14.5 points before falling to Boston 94-74.

With Yao sidelined, Houston finished the season 55-27, earning the fifth seed in one of the tightest Western Conference playoff races in NBA history. The Rockets faced the Utah Jazz in the first round and eventually lost the series in six games to the team that had eliminated Houston in seven first-round games a season earlier.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5dOAyuG4Tw

But nothing could take away from the team’s epic regular season run.

Perhaps the man with the most insight is Battier, who was also a critical member of the Heat’s streak in 2013.

“We knew back then that it was one of the most improbable runs in basketball history — maybe even in sports history,” Battier said reflecting on Houston’s streak . “We were journeymen, a bunch of role players. When we were healthy — with Yao [Ming] and Tracy [McGrady] — that team was pretty good. But we could never stay healthy.

“That was our championship.”

Yao and McGrady were a great duo. Houston was 127-61 (55.4 win pace) between 2004-05 and 2007-08 in games they both played. Houston was 18-34 (28.4 win pace) without either of them; without just Yao, they were 47-41 (43.8 win pace); without just McGrady, they were 20-46 (24.9 win pace).

Worth mentioning Houston was a defensively-slanted, slower-paced team. T-Mac's offensive numbers were no doubt suppressed somewhat.

[90sgoat]

People are saying AJ Dybantsa looks like McGrady.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LlLwx9433Dk&pp=ygULYWogZHliYW50c2E%3D



Looks good but I'm not seeing elite athleticism or length.

[Im Still Ballin]

Looks good but I'm not seeing elite athleticism or length.

I believe McGrady is 6'7" barefoot with a 7'2" wingspan. Same as Ariza. Dybantsa I think is a little taller than 6'7.75" Paul George and has a 6'11" wingspan. Very similar measurements to Jayson Tatum. Both most likely have standing reaches somewhere in the 8'10" to 9'1" range.

[90sgoat]

Looked more like Ant in those clips, but what do I know.

[Soundwave]

Should have stayed in Toronto, even Kobe basically told him that.

The irony is, in the years following, players would willingly start taking less money to super-team. McGrady willingly left a situation with he had another superstar to play with (Vince Carter) and the team was on the rise. Like Orlando dude? Shaq and Penny both left and that's where you go?

[Phoenix]

Should have stayed in Toronto, even Kobe basically told him that.

The irony is, in the years following, players would willingly start taking less money to super-team. McGrady willingly left a situation with he had another superstar to play with (Vince Carter) and the team was on the rise. Like Orlando dude? Shaq and Penny both left and that's where you go?

Would have been interesting if he stayed. The Raptors likely would have been the sacrificial lambs in the Finals against LA or the Spurs instead of the Nets.

[ShawkFactory]

Should have stayed in Toronto, even Kobe basically told him that.

The irony is, in the years following, players would willingly start taking less money to super-team. McGrady willingly left a situation with he had another superstar to play with (Vince Carter) and the team was on the rise. Like Orlando dude? Shaq and Penny both left and that's where you go?

Well they got Grant Hill who was still an all star player and were very close to have Duncan as well. In retrospect it's easy to say it was a bad call but at the time it looked like a good move. Not his fault everything fell apart.

[Phoenix]

Well they got Grant Hill who was still an all star player and were very close to have Duncan as well. In retrospect it's easy to say it was a bad call but at the time it looked like a good move. Not his fault everything fell apart.

Now THAT would have been interesting. That trio may have netted a few titles if everyone was healthy.

[Carbine]

Yeah Grant was a bonafide top 5 type player at the time when he joined Orlando.

From reports Duncan would have signed the dotted lines to join the Magic that same off season as well (Duncan and mac were both adidas guys) if the Magic would have let Duncans family come on the plane rides. They didn't, so it made his decision to go back to the Spurs an easy one.

[90sgoat]

If he didn't like Toronto then he didn't like it.

I get it totally, Toronto seems like a boring city with shit weather. Rather play in Utah and Denver, at least they have mountains.

[BarberSchool]

McGrady had top 10 all time talent. Maybe top 8. Just didn’t get there.

[Soundwave]

I mean the fact is McGrady has said he made a mistake in not staying in Toronto himself. He said Kobe Bryant told him straight up they would have been playing the Raptors in the Finals.

It's dumb to leave a guaranteed situation that's going good like that, he tempted fate, the basketball gods slapped him in the face.

It was a stupid era in NBA history, players like Stephon Marbury looking off having like Kevin Garnett as a teammate to go play elsewhere, and then their career never really panned out the way it was hyped to be.

Classic case of overthinking things and having too many stupid people in your ear as a young person and having it blow up in your face as a result.

[SouBeachTalents]

I mean the fact is McGrady has said he made a mistake in not staying in Toronto himself. He said Kobe Bryant told him straight up they would have been playing the Raptors in the Finals.

It's dumb to leave a guaranteed situation that's going good like that, he tempted fate, the basketball gods slapped him in the face.

It was a stupid era in NBA history, players like Stephon Marbury looking off having like Kevin Garnett as a teammate to go play elsewhere, and then their career never really panned out the way it was hyped to be.

Classic case of overthinking things and having too many stupid people in your ear as a young person and having it blow up in your face as a result.
It's easy to say this so confidently in hindsight. When he signed with Orlando he was joining a top 10 player in Hill, and if not for Doc stupidly telling him his family couldn't travel on the team's plane, Duncan was likely going to sign there too. Even with Hill's injuries, McGrady & Duncan are definitely winning at least one title together, if not more.

[Im Still Ballin]

Tracy McGrady pre-draft scouting reports:


listed at 6'8", 200
closer to 6'7", 180

Another high school player with tremendous physical ability but not
much of a clue about how to really play the game of basketball.

McGrady likes to compare himself to Penny Hardaway. I can see that a
little bit, but Penny played PG as he grew up -- it's not clear that
McGrady played organized basketball.

McGrady is an amazingly gifted athlete. He moves gracefully, has very
good quickness, and jumps very well. He has a smooth shot that appears
fundamentally sound. He is athletic around the hoop, able to contort his
body to get looks at the basket in heavy traffic.

Offensively, he has great potential with his shooting. He could be a
tremendous offensive rebounder. However, he doesn't move without the ball.
Period. Perhaps that's a fault of his high school coaching. It's a big
weakness in his game.

Defensively, he again has great potential. He does a decent job on defense
when he tries, but nothing exceptional, except shot blocking. McGrady
has a lot of work to do on the defensive end of the court. He doesn't
box out very much, either.

Ballhandling is above averae for a high school senior his size. Nothing
remarkable, though.

McGrady is certainly an intriguing player for a NBA team to draft. He
has great potential, but has really only had one year of great play in
high school to base a decision on. He could become a great 2 or 3 in
the league. Most any team would have to wait a minimum of a year, perhaps
two, before getting any feedback.

In comparing him to the other recent high school seniors who've made the
NBA, McGrady compares most closely to Jermaine O'Neal. Physically, he
probably approaches Garnett, but he doesn't have Garnett's size or feel
for the game.


This kid has great potiential in playing the 2-3 postions his play at the
magic's all-stars was borderline. His stats of his junior year in a weak
divioson of flordia basketball were he played were 22.3 PPG, 15.0 RPG,
and 9.0 BPG indicates pretty strong game . But like I said he played in a
weak comference. During the summer he went to various h.s. camps at the
addias basketball camp he was a virtual unknown. His national rank was
#175 and moving up he tore up the league out playing some of the best at
his postion like lamar odom. He earned MVP at the camp he then transfered
to a private school MOUNT ZION CHRISTIAN and dominated the higher level
of competion by averaging 22.3 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 4.5 APG, 2.7 SPG, 2.1 BPG
while leading his team to a 26-2 record. MCGRADY WANTS TO EXCEED


Tracy is an unbeliavable athlete. I saw him in a tournament back in Florida
and he was truly impressive. He threw down the most amazing dunks in real
game situations, not to mention his performance in the dunk contest. Was more
impressive athletiacally than former Floridians Vince Carter and Eddie Jones.
Has excellent ocurt presence and uncanny ball-handling ability for a man of
his size, not to mention nice touch on his jumper, but where he excels is in
the transition game where he runs like a gazelle and finshes spectacularly
with authority in traffic. But, for all his potential, he sill needs to under
stand the finer points of the game... fundamental man-to-man defense (in high
school he would just block everybody's shot with athletic ability but that
will not be the case in the NBA), offensive movement (without the ball he is a
stationary player and will need to move around if he wants to be a successfull
wing player in the NBA). But ovreall, if given time to mature, and if he is
allowed to play up-and-down open court basketball, Tracy McGrady can be a
star!!!

[90sgoat]

On point scouting.

Back in the day people didn't fanboy like they did with Lebron and Wemby, but told it like it was.

McGrady could not play off ball at all.

[bizil]

When T-Mac was at his best, the ONLY SG's I would take over him peak wise for sure are MJ and Mamba. When it comes to Mac vs. Wade, it's not as clear cut who I would take. BUT if we are talking offensive SKILL LEVEL, T Mac is as gifted as any SG ever. You got Kobe, MJ, and Harden of course up there. But I would put T-Mac in that group. Hell if you put him as a SF, I would put him among the top 5 peak wise of all time too. You got Bron, Bird, and KD of course as the top 3. BUT from there you got Doc, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor in the mix. I would take T-Mac over any of them peak wise. T Mac COULD DO all the things those guys could do pretty much. And was 2-3 inches taller than all of them.

And when you throw in the fact he's 6'9, you could make the case he's the most UNIQUE SG ever. He's the first SG I can remember that you could play at four different positions if you needed to. Despite the injuries, he still made 7 All Star Games AND 7 All NBA teams. I bet less than 15 SG's OR SF's have made at least 7 All Star Games and & 7 all NBA teams as a package. I know T Mac played a ton of SF, but his primary position at the peak of his powers was SG. When peak PG13 lined up at the SG, he's likely the closest thing to T Mac in terms of size and ability. But I would still take T-Mac over PG13 peak prime wise. More dominant offensively, every bit the freak athlete likely a bit more athletic, a better passer, and a more skilled scorer.

[SouBeachTalents]

When T-Mac was at his best, the ONLY SG's I would take over him peak wise for sure are MJ and Mamba. When it comes to Mac vs. Wade, it's not as clear cut who I would take. BUT if we are talking offensive SKILL LEVEL, T Mac is as gifted as any SG ever. You got Kobe, MJ, and Harden of course up there. But I would put T-Mac in that group. Hell if you put him as a SF, I would put him among the top 5 peak wise of all time too. You got Bron, Bird, and KD of course as the top 3. BUT from there you got Doc, Hondo, Barry, and Baylor in the mix. I would take T-Mac over any of them peak wise. T Mac COULD DO all the things those guys could do pretty much. And was 2-3 inches taller than all of them.

And when you throw in the fact he's 6'9, you could make the case he's the most UNIQUE SG ever. He's the first SG I can remember that you could play at four different positions if you needed to. Despite the injuries, he still made 7 All Star Games AND 7 All NBA teams. I bet less than 15 SG's OR SF's have made at least 7 All Star Games and & 7 all NBA teams as a package. I know T Mac played a ton of SF, but his primary position at the peak of his powers was SG. When peak PG13 lined up at the SG, he's likely the closest thing to T Mac in terms of size and ability. But I would still take T-Mac over PG13 peak prime wise. More dominant offensively, every bit the freak athlete likely a bit more athletic, a better passer, and a more skilled scorer.
Kobe wasn't noticeably better than Wade or peak McGrady either, they're all on the same tier. And you straight up left out Kawhi in regards to SF's.

[ILLsmak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQH27-vYsTY

I think this video does a good job of showing how good Tracy McGrady was and how his personality and bad luck left him as a footnote in NBA history, when imo, he could easily have been considered as good, or even better, than someone like Durant.

When looking at this short doc, it seems like his personality got in the way, couldn't co-exist with Vince in cold Toronto. Didn't have the patience to wait for a draft pick that turned into Dwight Howard.

That said, McGrady was for real and youngins today probably underrate him. He was Lebron before Lebron. The original big ball handling wing. Could shoot, drive and pass.

There was a time, a short time, when people on forums would discuss Kobe vs McGrady vs Lebron in that order.

Tmac is already better than KD as a total bball player, but KD has something nobody has ever had. KD is probably the greatest weapon in basketball history. He can't really push the point tho, Tmac can, and that matters. If you got someone to set up KD, it's over. But you put him on a team with Russ and he has to just watch him choke the game away cuz he can't bring the ball up and end up with good shots.

-Smak

[HylianNightmare]

I play in my men's league with his shoes and it's funny how the old heads love the shoes and all the younger guys ask if they are hardens

[bizil]

Kobe wasn't noticeably better than Wade or peak McGrady either, they're all on the same tier. And you straight up left out Kawhi in regards to SF's.

Nah I'll take the Mamba over Wade or T-Mac peak wise. NOT SAYING it's a huge gap. At the same time Kobe was BETTER! Kobe is considered by many as the MOST SKILLED PLAYER OF ALL TIME! And defensively Kobe at his peak WAS BETTER THAN Wade and T-Mac! That's enough to swing it his way in peak argument againt Wade or T-Mac.

And when I was listing SF's, I DIDN'T FORGET Kawhi! I just listed some of the great SF's at off the top of my head. And FOR ME Bird, KD, Bron, Doc, Hondo, Baylor, and Barry are more MEMORABLE PLAYERS than Kawhi. Peak wise when Kawhi is ACTUALLY ON THE COURT, you can argue he's a top 5 level SF peak wise all time.

BUT GOAT SF wise, he's not on that same tier. Too many injuries and his durability brings him back to the pack. That Clippers situation was a total failure. Was better off going to the Lakers where he could have been a third option scorer INSTEAD of being relied upon the be the 1st option scorer. Kawhi's TWO WAY ABILITY is what make him an all time great. WHEN IT COMES to being that alpha dog #1 scoring option, I can name MANY SF's I would take over him. Guys who are MORE RELIABLE year after year willing their teams. And guys who are more DANGEROUS scoring the rock! I'm not saying Kawhi isn't #1 alpha dog scoring material. Just saying when it comes to THAT ASPECT, there are several SF's I would take over him.

[Phoenix]

I think D-Wade was the more consistent overall defender than Kobe. Kobe was probably a better man defender especially when motivated by big matchups vs Tmac/Dwade/Vince/AI etc, and particularly in like 2000 and 2001 when Shaq was behind him protecting the paint, but he wasn't anything special team defense-wise, and at the peak of his scoring ability he took his foot off the gas defensively alot of nights (one of the big differences between himself and peak MJ, Kobe didn't have the same athletic motor). His re-commitment to that side of the ball in 2008 when he had a better team around him coincided with his MVP win.

[RRR3]

I wish I could see Orlando T-Mac in today's league.

[Phoenix]

^ He would be a worse shooting but more athletic version of KD, more or less. Less consistent shooter( not that he was a bad one at his best), better handle and passer, potentially a better defender when he chose to be. Probably better assist numbers because he'd probably be used as a point forward and have the ball in his hands alot more. If you flipped the eras they played, Tmac's efficiency would soar and KD's would be alot worse, he was prone to physical defense and there was plenty of it in the early 2000s.

Actually a better Paul George at whatever you consider his best to be may be a more apt comparison.