2-Part Thread - PART ONE - Jumpshooting stats for Kobe, Lebron and MJ

[3ba11]

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Effective FG% on all jumpshots for MJ, Kobe, Lebron


Lebron 2004 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 35.6%, 324/998
Lebron 2005 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.9%, 400/1136
Lebron 2006 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 41.7%, 423/1166
Lebron 2007 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.5%, 372/1066
Lebron 2008 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.4%, 338/1001
Lebron 2009 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 42.2%, 366/1024
Lebron 2010 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.4%, 356/970
Lebron 2011 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2010-11&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 45.4%, 393/968
Lebron 2012 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2011-12&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.7%, 290/726
Lebron 2013 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 49.0%, 333/784
Lebron 2014 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2013-14&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.0%, 288/736
Lebron 2015 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2014-15&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.1%, 280/788
Lebron 2016 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2015-16&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 39.0%, 181/543
Lebron 2017 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2016-17&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.8%, 226/643
Lebron 2018 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2017-18&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.2%, 304/802
Lebron 2019 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 47.2%, 210/563


Bryant 2000 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=1999-00&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 38.5%, 328/851
Bryant 2001 (http://www.nba.com/player/977/shooting/?Season=2000-01&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.0%, 460/1141
Bryant 2002 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2001-02&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 41.8%, 478/1184
Bryant 2003 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2002-03&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.1%, 597/1494
Bryant 2004 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2003-04&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 40.3%, 282/787
Bryant 2005 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2004-05&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.5%, 346/947
Bryant 2006 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 46.5%, 709/1724
Bryant 2007 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2006-07&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 46.7%, 556/1358
Bryant 2008 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2007-08&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 44.6%, 468/1217
Bryant 2009 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2008-09&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 45.0%, 519/1285
Bryant 2010 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/977/shooting/?Season=2009-10&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 43.8%, 444/1226


Jordan 1997 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 51.2%, 727/1528
Jordan 1998 (http://stats.nba.com/stats/player/893/shooting/?Season=1997-98&SeasonType=Regular%20Season): 42.4%, 600/1449


^^^Lebron shoots about 39-40% at the higher volumes of 1000 attempts, while MJ/Kobe were shooting 45% or more at 1000-1500 attempts

Lebron needed lower volume of 700 attempts to have better efficiency of 45% or more.

So Lebron lacks the jumpshooting skill to shoot well at high volume, while MJ/Kobe shot great at high volume due to elite jumpshooting skill.. Since Lebron cannot have high jumpshooting volume due to low efficiency, he must execute ball-dominant rim attack game, which prevents elite ball movement and offensive sophistication that can compete well on the championship level (22-33).



..................eFG% All Jumpshots

Lebron 2006 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2005-06&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)....... 41.7%, 423/1166 <----- lebron's highest VOLUME year
Lebron 2013 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/2544/shooting/?Season=2012-13&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)....... 49.0%, 333/784 <----- lebron's highest EFFICIENCY year

Jordan 1997 (http://www.nba.com/stats/player/893/shooting/?Season=1996-97&SeasonType=Regular%20Season)........ 51.2%, 727/1528 <----- nearly twice the volume with better efficiency than lebron's best

[Carbine]

How well did it compete on the championship level when his team came back from 3-1 against the greatest regular season team of all time?

[Airupthere]

No surprise. Most of bran's points come from bulldozing in an east path to the basket era.

[Full Court]

Kind of a weird thread....Even the Bronie fanatics aren't out there trying to claim Lebron is a better jump shooter than Jordan.

[Airupthere]

Kind of a weird thread....Even the Bronie fanatics aren't out there trying to claim Lebron is a better jump shooter than Jordan.

Lebron has a horrible shooting form to boot. I don't think anyone can defend that.

[Kblaze8855]

https://i.ibb.co/sJMw2hN/IMG-9922.gif

[3ba11]

https://i.ibb.co/sJMw2hN/IMG-9922.gif


18 points on 8 shots has been considered a great game for Magic and even Lebron, but it's a BAD game for the goat

But here's the double standard in plain view:

18 points on 8 shots (lost series) > 7 points on 10 shots (won series)

Lebron had 7 points on 2-10 shooting in Game 5 of the 2014 ECF, but WON the series as a big favorite, yet you're knocking MJ for getting 18 points on 4-8 in a series that he lost as a big underdog... Let that sink in

[Hey Yo]

10 of the 18pts were from the foul line.

[3ba11]

10 of the 18pts were from the foul line.


Lebron had 7 points on 2-10 shooting in Game 5 of the 2014 ECF, but WON the series as a big favorite, yet you're knocking MJ for getting 18 points on 4-8 in a series that he lost as a big underdog... Let that sink in

Lebron also had 8 point Finals game... What's worse - 8 shot attempts for 18 points or 8 total points?... :oldlol:

[Full Court]

Lebron had 7 points on 2-10 shooting in Game 5 of the 2014 ECF, but WON the series as a big favorite, yet you're knocking MJ for getting 18 points on 4-8 in a series that he lost as a big underdog... Let that sink in

Lebron also had 8 point Finals game... What's worse - 8 shot attempts for 18 points or 8 total points?... :oldlol:

You're missing the big picture. Jordan had a handful of bad playoff games. Relatively speaking.

Lebron had OVER FORTY post season choke jobs. Not even comparable really.

[StrongLurk]

You're missing the big picture. Jordan had a handful of bad playoff games. Relatively speaking.

Lebron had OVER FORTY post season choke jobs. Not even comparable really.

Jordan is the best playoff performer of all time in my opinion.

He had 17 bad playoff games out of 179 total games (of course these games were basically all in his prime).

Lebron has 38 bad playoff games out of 287 total games (Lebron has probably 40 playoff games out of his prime).

Either way, MJ has a better ratio, but Lebron's ratio is better than anyone else's, especially considering his volume.

[3ba11]

Jordan is the best playoff performer of all time in my opinion.

He had 17 bad playoff games out of 179 total games (of course these games were basically all in his prime).

Lebron has 38 bad playoff games out of 287 total games (Lebron has probably 40 playoff games out of his prime).

Either way, MJ has a better ratio, but Lebron's ratio is better than anyone else's, especially considering his volume.


Lebron's lows of 35% shooting and 6 TO's per game in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF, or his 11' Finals - these 3 series are the worst ever from any all-time 1st option.. Kobe never played anywhere near that bad as 1st option.. Lebron is a habitual bed-wetter

[3ba11]

.
Thread Cliffs


the reason for the jumpshooting stats was to show the combination of VOLUME and efficiency - high jumpshooting volume allows a player to be considered a jumpshooter, assuming the volume comes with good efficiency as well.

Unfortunately, Lebron cannot have good efficiency at high jumpshooting volume, so he doesn't have high jumpshooting volume and therefore must be a lesser skillset entirely (ball-dominator) - this lesser skillset has weaker chemistry and teams and therefore ranks lower all-time than other skillsets.

[SouBeachTalents]

Thread cliffs

LeBron is better than Kobe

3ball is a fakkit

[3ba11]

Thread cliffs

LeBron is better than Kobe

3ball is a fakkit


Kobe is better than Lebron because his skillset allows higher team ceilings (3-peat) and winning with less (winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh).

Let that sink in.

And let's flesh that out... Kobe's superior skillset included being an expert jumpshooter, which is a player that can have high jumpshooting volume with high efficiency - this allows the player to play off teammates effectively and have great ball movement, chemistry/fits and brand of ball, so they can have higher team ceiling (3-peat) and win with less (winning with a 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh)..

[StrongLurk]

Lebron's lows of 35% shooting and 6 TO's per game in the 07' Finals and 08' ECSF, or his 11' Finals - these 3 series are the worst ever from any all-time 1st option.. Kobe never played anywhere near that bad as 1st option.. Lebron is a habitual bed-wetter

When do you consider Kobe to be a 1st option? Humor me.

[3ba11]

When do you consider Kobe to be a 1st option? Humor me.


Not the 2000 Finals

Accordingly, only Lebron has losses as the 1st option while shooting under 40%... This includes the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, and 15' Finals.

He literally played like Iverson but was praised for it (low-efficiency chucking, crazy turnovers and no defense)... yet you praise him for literally playing worse than any all-time 1st option ever has... smh.. how's falling for the fraud going?

[StrongLurk]

Not the 2000 Finals

Accordingly, only Lebron has losses as the 1st option while shooting under 40%... This includes the 07' Finals, 08' ECSF, and 15' Finals.

He literally played like Iverson but was praised for it (low-efficiency chucking, crazy turnovers and no defense)... yet you praise him for literally playing worse than any all-time 1st option ever has... smh.. how's falling for the fraud going?

So Kobe was the 1st option for his whole career outside of the 2000 finals?

[3ba11]

So Kobe was the 1st option for his whole career outside of the 2000 finals?


He was 1st option against the Spurs in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, which everyone knows was the REAL Finals.

Otoh, Shaq-ball was more than enough to beat the all-time weak east in the Finals, and this focus on Shaq when facing the weaker comp brought down Kobe's numbers... But as 1st option in 09' and 10', we saw Kobe win with 2nd options that were worse than Love or Bosh - this is goat-level obviously, as is winning with the triangle.

[StrongLurk]

He was 1st option against the Spurs in the 01' and 02' Playoffs, which everyone knows was the REAL Finals.

Otoh, Shaq-ball was more than enough to beat the all-time weak east in the Finals, and this focus on Shaq when facing the weaker comp brought down Kobe's numbers... But as 1st option in 09' and 10', we saw Kobe win with 2nd options that were worse than Love or Bosh - this is goat-level obviously, as is winning with the triangle.

You aren't being clear at all. When was Kobe the 1st option in his career? You are saying right now that Kobe wasn't the first option in the 2000, 2001, 2002 and the 2004 finals. In which case, based on previous your statements, disqualify Kobe from being compared to MJ and Lebron who were the first options in their finals.

[ShawkFactory]

You just proved that Lebron got better as a shooter throughout his career, particularly starting in 09. This is something we all already knew but I never cared enough to pull the numbers like this. Thanks man :applause:

[3ba11]

You just proved that Lebron got better as a shooter throughout his career, particularly starting in 09. This is something we all already knew but I never cared enough to pull the numbers like this. Thanks man :applause:


Lebron shot like trash at 1000 attempts (~40%) and never reached 1200 attempts... Meanwhile, Kobe attempted 1200-1700 jumpers at 45-47% each year from 2006 to 2010.

Accordingly, low efficiency at even average jumpshooting volumes ensures that Lebron mostly drives - driving is his game because he isn't capable of shooting mostly jumpers, due to low efficiency at even average volumes.

Otoh, Kobe has great efficiency at high jumpshooting volumes, so he could shoot mostly jumpers, which allowed more assisted buckets, ball movement, and better fits (playing off of in-out bigs)..

Ultimately, massive samples show that jumpshooters like Curry, Kobe or MJ produced better chemistry, so they have higher team ceilings (3-peat) and win with less (winning with 2nd options that were worse than Love or Bosh)

[3ba11]

You aren't being clear at all. When was Kobe the 1st option in his career? You are saying right now that Kobe wasn't the first option in the 2000, 2001, 2002 and the 2004 finals. In which case, based on previous your statements, disqualify Kobe from being compared to MJ and Lebron who were the first options in their finals.


Kobe and Shaq were like Wade and Lebron in 2011 or AD/Lebron in 2020 - AD and Wade often led the team, just like Kobe frequently led the Lakers like he did against the Spurs

[StrongLurk]

Kobe and Shaq were like Wade and Lebron in 2011 or AD/Lebron in 2020 - AD and Wade often led the team, just like Kobe frequently led the Lakers like he did against the Spurs

You still aren't being clear at all.

When was Kobe specifically the actual 1st option in his career? You are saying right now that Kobe wasn't the first option in the 2000, 2001, 2002 and the 2004 finals. In which case, based on previous your statements, disqualify Kobe from being compared to MJ and Lebron who were the first options in their finals.

[ELITEpower23]

How well did it compete on the championship level when his team came back from 3-1 against the greatest regular season team of all time?

Facing a 3 to 1 All-NBA deficit in the Finals and winning (also the first and only time that has ever happened as well)?