"I didn't start making all-defense until AFTER i won the title" - Tayshaun Prince

[3ba11]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvgxM1xZQN0&t=04m17s

Darius Miles concurs and says that you have to be on a winning team to be considered a great defender.

Prince likely makes zero all-defense without winning the title and Jaylen Brown is the same way - he will start making All-Defense now that he's won a title and also All-NBA.

This is similar to Pippen, Pau, Klay, Dumars, Parker and other secondary-producing sidekicks that wouldn't be well-known without the winning spotlight making them All-NBA or All-Defense.. They aren't elite producers and true franchise players like Wade, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, or AD - these guys were tasked with building a team from scratch because they were great right away and had elite statistical capability - everyone knew they were great, so they didn't need to win titles to get All-NBA.

[Hey Yo]

Payton was DPOY and 9x straight first team defense... without a title.

[Phoenix]

Ruby Gobert and Mutumbo both have multiple DPOY/all-defense without a title. All of Dwight Howard's awards came prior to him winning in 2020 as a role player. Winning a chip was not a prerequisite to them being rewarded for their defense.

[3ba11]

Payton was DPOY and 9x straight first team defense... without a title.


Correct - he was truly great on his own by not needing the winning spotlight to get media accolade - this is similar to other franchise guys like Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie - they were all great on their own without needing the winning spotlight.

otoh, we see many non-franchise players and secondary producers like Klay, Pau, Pippen, Dumars, and Tony Parker need titles to get All-NBA - they need winning spotlight to be seen as great

it's all intuitive.

[tpols]

Pippen would've been known as a great defender regardless of the Bulls. It was literally the only thing he was very talented at.

Klay otoh would've never sniffed an all defense team if he played for some bum team. His defense is massively overrated because his length and athleticism and help defense is just straight up pedestrian.

[3ba11]

Pippen would've been known as a great defender regardless of the Bulls. It was literally the only thing he was very talented at.





The historic rivalry and wars with the Pistons' ensured that Pippen would get noticed - those ECF's were like championship series

Without that, he might get overlooked defensively just like Jaylen Brown or Tayshaun Prince.

Fortunately, MJ carried the Bulls to historic series against the Bad Boys, so the mainstream was very well-educated on who Pippen was heading into the 91' season..

Otoh, the mainstream media never cared about Jaylen or Tayshaun... There's no reason to believe Pippen wouldn't follow this same path if he was losing on the Wizards or something and completely unnoticed player... It wasn't like he was lighting it up with 30 ppg or great shooting - he was a low producer that would get ignored on any other team.

[Wardell Curry]

Tayshaun started getting defensive awards in his third season. Did the guy really believe that he should have been All Defense in year one or two? He was already getting some level of consideration for MIP in year two.

What a clown. And anyone who believes his narrative is also a clown, which is not surprising.

Chalk it up to yet another clueless former pro.

[Wardell Curry]

How many titles has Rudy Gobert won?

This is a shallow thread and a modicum of thought can display how silly it is.

[pandiani17]

Tayshaun started getting defensive awards in his third season. Did the guy really believe that he should have been All Defense in year one or two? He was already getting some level of consideration for MIP in year two.

What a clown. And anyone who believes his narrative is also a clown, which is not surprising.

Chalk it up to yet another clueless former pro.

This. He won the title his second year. He was only snubbed twice, and he was a reserve his rookie season. It's not like he had been in the league for ten years. It is a weird quote.

[3ba11]

This. He won the title his second year. He was only snubbed twice, and he was a reserve his rookie season. It's not like he had been in the league for ten years. It is a weird quote.


Klay, Pippen, Pau, Dumars, Parker and other secondary-producers needed the winning spotlight for people to see them as good players or All-NBA, since they didn't get All-NBA until they won titles.

Otoh, elite producers like Wade, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, or AD were viewed as All-NBA and great players without the winning spotlight of titles.. Since they were truly great on their own, they were tasked with building a team from scratch, aka franchise players..

Being great on your own is relevant because the "down-hill" or "bron-ball" skillset has weaker chemistry that requires greater talent and therefore cannot win with secondary producers like Klay or Pippen - bron-ball requires franchise guys that were great on their own like Wade, AD, and Love - he needs these guys at 2nd AND third option.. Despite this ridiculous help, the weak brand mostly loses regardless of cast.

[L.Kizzle]

He won a title in his second season, what is he talking about.

[Full Court]

AD should have been DPOY last season. And probably would have been if Lebron hadn't dragged the Lakers down into the play-in.

[jlip]

Jerry Krause, the Bulls vice-president for basketball operations, says Pippen is "not afraid of anybody in the NBA because he doesn't know who most of these guys are." In fact, when Krause complimented Pippen on the defensive job he had just done in one of last spring's college all-star games, Pippen seemed blasè. "I guess guys who play on national TV get a lot of publicity," he says. "I was expecting more from them."

Article from 11/30/1987 with Jerry Krause praising Pippen's defense before Pippen ever met MJ, was drafted, or won a title (https://vault.si.com/vault/1987/11/30/now-you-see-him-the-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-leaped-from-obscurity-to-become-a-top-nba-rookie).


“What I wanted was another great athlete,” Krause told The Vertical of drafting Pippen. “I think defensively so much. My mind is so much geared, going all the way back … I’ve always been defense-oriented. What I saw in Pippen was a chance to be a great defensive player. I saw a guy with long arms and quick feet and big hands and all the things — who couldn’t shoot. He was not a good shooter. Now, when I first saw Michael Jordan, he wasn’t a good shooter either. Shooting can be improved. It’s a skill, it can be worked at. What I saw in Pippen was a guy that could guard ones, twos, threes and fours, and I fell in love with that

Article (https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/jerry-krause-reflects-on-drafting-scottie-pippen-good-scouting-recon-4-a-m-negotiations/) from 02/01/2017 with Krause again saying that one of the reasons he drafted Pippen was that he saw that Pippen while in college was already a competent versatile defender before Pippen ever met Jordan, was drafted, or won a championship

[Im Still Ballin]

Jerry Krause, the Bulls vice-president for basketball operations, says Pippen is "not afraid of anybody in the NBA because he doesn't know who most of these guys are." In fact, when Krause complimented Pippen on the defensive job he had just done in one of last spring's college all-star games, Pippen seemed blasè. "I guess guys who play on national TV get a lot of publicity," he says. "I was expecting more from them."

Article from 11/30/1987 with Jerry Krause praising Pippen's defense before Pippen ever met MJ, was drafted, or won a title (https://vault.si.com/vault/1987/11/30/now-you-see-him-the-bulls-scottie-pippen-has-leaped-from-obscurity-to-become-a-top-nba-rookie).


“What I wanted was another great athlete,” Krause told The Vertical of drafting Pippen. “I think defensively so much. My mind is so much geared, going all the way back … I’ve always been defense-oriented. What I saw in Pippen was a chance to be a great defensive player. I saw a guy with long arms and quick feet and big hands and all the things — who couldn’t shoot. He was not a good shooter. Now, when I first saw Michael Jordan, he wasn’t a good shooter either. Shooting can be improved. It’s a skill, it can be worked at. What I saw in Pippen was a guy that could guard ones, twos, threes and fours, and I fell in love with that

Article (https://www.cbsnews.com/chicago/news/jerry-krause-reflects-on-drafting-scottie-pippen-good-scouting-recon-4-a-m-negotiations/) from 02/01/2017 with Krause again saying that one of the reasons he drafted Pippen was that he saw that Pippen while in college was already a competent versatile defender before Pippen ever met Jordan, was drafted, or won a championship

Krause-stradamus!

:bowdown:

[Phoenix]

Ben Wallace was a two-time DPOY/all-defense before winning a title.

[ShawkFactory]

Correct - he was truly great on his own by not needing the winning spotlight to get media accolade - this is similar to other franchise guys like Wade, AD, Love, Bosh, Kyrie - they were all great on their own without needing the winning spotlight.

otoh, we see many non-franchise players and secondary producers like Klay, Pau, Pippen, Dumars, and Tony Parker need titles to get All-NBA - they need winning spotlight to be seen as great

it's all intuitive.

Tony Parker didn’t make an all-nba team until 2009, in which he was 3rd. He was second team 12-14.

He’d already won 3 titles.

Sometimes guys contributing in such a way to win titles gets them notoriety. You can call it the winning spotlight carrying. I can call it..oh this dude is actually for real.

As a side note, Kyrie had 3 years with the Cavs before Lebron and they won 22, 24, and 33 games. Despite his skill, was he truly a franchise player? Who’s to say.

[Phoenix]

Tony Parker didn’t make an all-nba team until 2009, in which he was 3rd. He was second team 12-14.

He’d already won 3 titles.

Sometimes guys contributing in such a way to win titles gets them notoriety. You can call it the winning spotlight carrying. I can call it..oh this dude is actually for real.

As a side note, Kyrie had 3 years with the Cavs before Lebron and they won 22, 24, and 33 games. Despite his skill, was he truly a franchise player? Who’s to say.

Similar with Ginobli. He won two titles (2003,2005) before his first all-NBA nod. Ironically the Spurs didn't win the chip in either of his all-nba years(2008,2011). Hell many argued he was best player in the 2005 finals but that didn't result in an all-nba nod the following year as part of the 'winning spotlight' bullshit.

[SouBeachTalents]

Isiah Thomas made 5 All-NBA Teams while winning a single playoff series during that time. After making 3 straight Finals and winning b2b titles, he never made All-NBA again, and this was after they expanded it to 3 teams.

[iamgine]

And yet those same years Doug Christie made many all defenses without a title :lol

[3ba11]

Tony Parker didn’t make an all-nba team until 2009, in which he was 3rd. He was second team 12-14.

He’d already won 3 titles.

Sometimes guys contributing in such a way to win titles gets them notoriety. You can call it the winning spotlight carrying. I can call it..oh this dude is actually for real.

As a side note, Kyrie had 3 years with the Cavs before Lebron and they won 22, 24, and 33 games. Despite his skill, was he truly a franchise player? Who’s to say.


Parker averaged 14 on 39% in the 03' Finals, while Klay and Pippen average 19 on 42% for their Finala career, so these secondary producers get carried, while franchise guys like Wade, AD and Kyrie lead the team in scoring for some playoff runs and series - and again, the main issue is that they didn't need the winning spotlight to be viewed as great or All-NBA, while non-franchise guys and secondary producers like Klap/Pippen needed titles to be seen as great or All-NBA

[ShawkFactory]

Parker averaged 14 on 39% in the 03' Finals, while Klay and Pippen average 19 on 42% for their Finala career, so these secondary producers get carried, while franchise guys like Wade, AD and Kyrie lead the team in scoring for some playoff runs and series - and again, the main issue is that they didn't need the winning spotlight to be viewed as great or All-NBA, while non-franchise guys and secondary producers like Klap/Pippen needed titles to be seen as great or All-NBA

:sleeping

[3ba11]

:sleeping


This isn't an opinion because HISTORY SHOWS that franchise guys like Wade, AD, Love and Bosh don't need titles and winning spotlight to be viewed as All-NBA, while secondary producers and non-franchise guys like Pippen, Pau, Klay, Parker, Dumars, and more need the winning spotlight to be seen as good players and All-NBA

It's clear as day - secondary producers and non-franchise guys need winning spotlight to be seen as good or All-NBA.. aka they need to be carried

[RRR3]

This isn't an opinion because HISTORY SHOWS that franchise guys like Wade, AD, Love and Bosh don't need titles and winning spotlight to be viewed as All-NBA, while secondary producers and non-franchise guys like Pippen, Pau, Klay, Parker, Dumars, and more need the winning spotlight to be seen as good players and All-NBA

It's clear as day - secondary producers and non-franchise guys need winning spotlight to be seen as good or All-NBA.. aka they need to be carried
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B35vsgBzMh4

[warriorfan]

I don’t have any statistics but this is just a by feel thing but when it comes to major awards and All NBA teams That if a player comes out of no where with a great season, they usually will get snubbed for that year…seems like they want to see it more than once to prove it wasn’t flukey?

Throwing it out there if anyone wants to fact check and rip it apart please do



I do think it’s undeniable that extra media exposure never hurts your chances in making these teams and getting these awards. This is a given.

I do think it’s undeniable that scottie pippen got extra media exposure by playing with Michael Jordan’s Bulls.

Therefor we can reasonably say that Scottie Pippen got a boost in his receiving of awards from playing with Michael Jordan

[AlternativeAcc.]

Parker averaged 14 on 39% in the 03' Finals, while Klay and Pippen average 19 on 42% for their Finala career, so these secondary producers get carried, while franchise guys like Wade, AD and Kyrie lead the team in scoring for some playoff runs and series - and again, the main issue is that they didn't need the winning spotlight to be viewed as great or All-NBA, while non-franchise guys and secondary producers like Klap/Pippen needed titles to be seen as great or All-NBA

Why couldn't Kobe win with Dwight who was coming off 3 straight DPOY and 5 straight top 5 MVP campaigns? Dwight + Pau = near lottery?

Why?

[warriorfan]

Why couldn't Kobe win with Dwight who was coming off 3 straight DPOY and 5 straight top 5 MVP campaigns? Dwight + Pau = near lottery?

Why?

Dwight didn’t look the same in LA. I wanted to say he had some back issues prior to joining with them. Steve Nash was 37 or 38 at the time. It was a poor man’s attempt at a big 3 and they whiffed.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Dwight didn’t look the same in LA. I wanted to say he had some back issues prior to joining with them. Steve Nash was 37 or 38 at the time. It was a poor man’s attempt at a big 3 and they whiffed.

But OP likes to pretend context doesn't exist, if accolades are all that matter and fit/health don't, then Dwight is actually the most accomplished player on his own that went on to play with Kobe or Lebron.

You can bring up Wade, but LeBron actually won with Wade. Kobe and Dwight were near lottery.

So OPs argument that accolades are all that matter for 2nd options falls flat on its face

[Hey Yo]

Dwight didn’t look the same in LA. I wanted to say he had some back issues prior to joining with them. Steve Nash was 37 or 38 at the time. It was a poor man’s attempt at a big 3 and they whiffed.

He may have not been the Dwight of old, but still played 76gms, avg. 36mp and led the league in rebounding while avg 17ppg. So it wasn't like he completely fell off and was a shell.

[AlternativeAcc.]

He may have not been the Dwight of old, but still played 76gms, avg. 36mp and led the league in rebounding while avg 17ppg. So it wasn't like he completely fell off and was a shell.
If the circumstances were reversed and Dwight teamed up with LeBron/Bosh (let's pretend Wade was forced to retire after 2012) - and the Heat were a near lottery team with LeBron/Dwight/Bosh, can you imagine how OP would use that against lebron? The agenda would be insane.

He's also never addressed it and runs away every time I bring it up, because it destroys his entire narrative. :lol

[Kblaze8855]

Yea…I’m sure Jim Paxon, Anthony Mason, Michael Redd, Fat Lever, Alvin Robertson, Rod Strickland, Eddie Jones, Drazen, Otis Birdsong, Buck Williams and so on never would have made all nba without being in the “winning spotlight”. People don’t just have eyes. No other way for people not traditionally considered elite production wise to make it I’m sure.

[3ba11]

But OP likes to pretend context doesn't exist, if accolades are all that matter and fit/health don't, then Dwight is actually the most accomplished player on his own that went on to play with Kobe or Lebron.

You can bring up Wade, but LeBron actually won with Wade. Kobe and Dwight were near lottery.

So OPs argument that accolades are all that matter for 2nd options falls flat on its face


Kobe was past his prime from 2011 onwards - even a little in 2010 - real Kobe fans know this

[3ba11]

Yea…I’m sure Jim Paxon, Anthony Mason, Michael Redd, Fat Lever, Alvin Robertson, Rod Strickland, Eddie Jones, Drazen, Otis Birdsong, Buck Williams and so on never would have made all nba without being in the “winning spotlight”. People don’t just have eyes. No other way for people not traditionally considered elite production wise to make it I’m sure.


Truly great players like the guys you mentioned can make All-NBA and be seen as great without the winning spotlight of titles.

Otoh, players that aren't truly great need the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - this includes Pau, Klay, Pippen, Gimobili, Parker and many more "carried" sidekicks - they needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and make All-NBA, or in Tayshaun's case, all-defense.

[SouBeachTalents]

I understand Pippen & Pau due to your agenda, but how the fvck are you going to claim Manu wasn't a great player? And not as good as the guys Blaze mentioned?

https://c.tenor.com/iqZq_N5_ld8AAAAd/tenor.gif

[AlternativeAcc.]

Kobe was past his prime from 2011 onwards - even a little in 2010 - real Kobe fans know this

27/6/6 and had the 2nd highest TS% of his career, and you still blame LeBron for not winning in his late 30's


Dwight was 27 coming off five top 5 MVP campaigns and 3 straight DPOY awards.

I thought Kobe fit with anybody? Why were they near lottery?

[Kblaze8855]

Truly great players like the guys you mentioned can make All-NBA and be seen as great without the winning spotlight of titles.

Otoh, players that aren't truly great need the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get All-NBA - this includes Pau, Klay, Pippen, Gimobili, Parker and many more "carried" sidekicks - they needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and make All-NBA, or in Tayshaun's case, all-defense.

Eddie Jones…true great. Joe Dumars…not.

[RRR3]

Kobe was past his prime from 2011 onwards - even a little in 2010 - real Kobe fans know this
Kobe's prime only lasted until 2009 but you still hold LeBron to peak standards which means you think he's still in his prime at age 40. Yikes.

[3ba11]

Eddie Jones…true great. Joe Dumars…not.


This isn't my opinion - it's Tayshaun's and every NBA player - the winning spotlight procures recognition and accolade.

And of course nothing is ever 100% - it should be obvious that arguments like these deal in correlations.. Here's the definition:

https://www.google.com/search?q=correlation+definition&oq=correlation+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDQgDEAAYgwEYsQMYgAQyBggAEEUYOT INCAEQABiDARixAxiABDINCAIQABiDARixAxiABDINCAMQABiD ARixAxiABDIHCAQQABiABDINCAUQABiDARixAxiABDINCAYQAB iDARixAxiABDINCAcQABiDARixAxiABDIQCAgQLhjHARixAxjR AxiABDINCAkQABiDARixAxiABDINCAoQABiDARixAxiABDINCA sQABiDARixAxiABDINCAwQABiDARixAxiABDINCA0QABiDARix AxiABDINCA4QABiDARixAxiABNIBCDk4ODJqMGo3qAIUsAIB&client=ms-android-along&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[3ba11]

Kobe's prime only lasted until 2009 but you still hold LeBron to peak standards which means you think he's still in his prime at age 40. Yikes.


Lebron's prime was only 09-18'... Jordan's was only 85-93', even though he was scoring champ + 1st team defense from 88-98'

[3ba11]

I understand Pippen & Pau due to your agenda, but how the fvck are you going to claim Manu wasn't a great player? And not as good as the guys Blaze mentioned?

https://c.tenor.com/iqZq_N5_ld8AAAAd/tenor.gif


Nothing is ever 100% - it should be obvious that arguments like these deal in correlations.. Here's the definition:

https://www.google.com/search?q=correlation+definition&oq=correlation+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDQgDEAAYgwEYsQMYgAQyBggAEEUYOT INCAEQABiDARixAxiABDINCAIQABiDARixAxiABDINCAMQABiD ARixAxiABDIHCAQQABiABDINCAUQABiDARixAxiABDINCAYQAB iDARixAxiABDINCAcQABiDARixAxiABDIQCAgQLhjHARixAxjR AxiABDINCAkQABiDARixAxiABDINCAoQABiDARixAxiABDINCA sQABiDARixAxiABDINCAwQABiDARixAxiABDINCA0QABiDARix AxiABDINCA4QABiDARixAxiABNIBCDk4ODJqMGo3qAIUsAIB&client=ms-android-along&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

[3ba11]

Guys like Wade, MJ, Shaq, AD, Isiah - they were going to make multiple All-NBA no matter what

But guys like Klay, Pippen, Pau??????... Not so much.... They needed the winning spotlight of titles to be seen as great and get numerous All-NBA - the historical timeline shows this.

[RRR3]

Lebron's prime was only 09-18'... Jordan's was only 85-93', even though he was scoring champ + 1st team defense from 88-98'
Kobe's prime was only 06-09 :( Yikes what a short period

[SouBeachTalents]

Guys like Tim Hardaway, Blake, Aldridge & Richmond were 5x All-NBA and they for sure did not have any winning spotlight on them, and it's not like they were considered top 5 players.

I'd love to hear the rationale for Ben Wallace who wasn't even cracking double digit scoring, yet already made 3 straight All-NBA teams before the Pistons won the championship.

[3ba11]

.
22-years old vs Spurs

Kobe......... 31/7/7 on 51%
Lebron...... 22/7/7 on 36%



Kobe's prime was only 06-09 :( Yikes what a short period


01-10' or 01-09'

[3ba11]

Guys like Tim Hardaway, Blake, Aldridge & Richmond were 5x All-NBA and they for sure did not have any winning spotlight on them, and it's not like they were considered top 5 players.

I'd love to hear the rationale for Ben Wallace who wasn't even cracking double digit scoring, yet already made 3 straight All-NBA teams before the Pistons won the championship.


Yeah the guys like KAT that make All-NBA on a sub-par team are the "real" all-nba guys because they made it without winning spotlight inflation... Otoh, guys like Pau, Pippen and Klay are "fake" All-NBA because they needed winning spotlight for anyone to see them (as good)

[RRR3]

.
22-years old vs Spurs

Kobe......... 31/7/7 on 51%
Lebron...... 22/7/7 on 36%





01-10' or 01-09'
So Kobe missed the playoffs in his prime? Kobe averaged 24 PPG on 43.8% shooting in his prime?



YIKES

[Kblaze8855]

This isn't my opinion - it's Tayshaun's and every NBA player - the winning spotlight procures recognition and accolade.

And of course nothing is ever 100% - it should be obvious that arguments like these deal in correlations.. Here's the definition:

https://www.google.com/search?q=correlation+definition&oq=correlation+&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqDQgDEAAYgwEYsQMYgAQyBggAEEUYOT INCAEQABiDARixAxiABDINCAIQABiDARixAxiABDINCAMQABiD ARixAxiABDIHCAQQABiABDINCAUQABiDARixAxiABDINCAYQAB iDARixAxiABDINCAcQABiDARixAxiABDIQCAgQLhjHARixAxjR AxiABDINCAkQABiDARixAxiABDINCAoQABiDARixAxiABDINCA sQABiDARixAxiABDINCAwQABiDARixAxiABDINCA0QABiDARix AxiABDINCA4QABiDARixAxiABNIBCDk4ODJqMGo3qAIUsAIB&client=ms-android-along&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8


Yea I’m sure Prince would agree that Joe Dumars(who drafted and supported him) is among the players who “needed the winning spotlight for people to see them as good players”.

That isn’t just another wild extrapolation of yours with no basis in reality.

People don’t realize great players(even all stars apparently) are even good…without winning titles.

Tayshaun is that stupid.

[3ba11]

Yea I’m sure Prince would agree that Joe Dumars(who drafted and supported him) is among the players who “needed the winning spotlight for people to see them as good players”.

That isn’t just another wild extrapolation of yours with no basis in reality.





I'm actually citing a flaw in the media's evaluation of these players, and therefore our evaluation, since we all cite All-NBA as a measure of a player.. Specifically, the trend of guys like Pau, Pippen, Dumars and others making All-NBA once they win titles shows that the media is frequently inflating guys ONCE they win titles, or deflating guys UNTIL they win titles.

We can argue about which guys deserve to be in which group, but the reality is that none were good enough to ostensibly force everyone to make them All-NBA regardless of titles the way guys like Shaq, Wade, AD, Love, KAT, and Kyrie do... These guys were all "locks" for numerous All-NBA regardless of whether they won or not, and the historical timeline confirms this since they made All-NBA before winning titles.







People don’t realize great players(even all stars apparently) are even good…without winning titles.

Tayshaun is that stupid.


No they literally do because Shaq, MJ, Wade, Love, and many more made All-NBA without winning titles - so some guys are good enough to make it obvious to everyone, even the dumb media that picks the award... They otherwise need winning spotlight (titles) to make their choice

[3ba11]

I'm actually citing a flaw in the media's evaluation of these players, and therefore our evaluation, since we all cite All-NBA as a measure of a player.. Specifically, the trend of guys like Pau, Pippen, Dumars and others making All-NBA once they win titles shows that the media is frequently inflating guys ONCE they win titles, or deflating guys UNTIL they win titles.

We can argue about which guys deserve to be in which group, but the reality is that none were good enough to ostensibly force everyone to make them All-NBA regardless of titles the way guys like Shaq, Wade, AD, Love, KAT, and Kyrie do... These guys were all "locks" for numerous All-NBA regardless of whether they won or not, and the historical timeline confirms this since they made All-NBA before winning titles.







No they literally do because Shaq, MJ, Wade, Love, and many more made All-NBA without winning titles - so some guys are good enough to make it obvious to everyone, even the dumb media that picks the award... They otherwise need winning spotlight (titles) to make their choice



https://media.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAM/accomplished-job.gif