MJ dunks over Hakeem [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

3ba11

09-19-2024, 09:36 PM

Hakeem’s 2 titles were the most impressive of the 1990’s.

hakeem's THIRD option did this:

FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

So no

And based on PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM, the gap between Hakeem and his 2nd option in 1994 was much smaller than the gap between MJ and his 2nd option in 1993 Playoffs and Finals...

The 94' Rockets had rich man's version of all the Bulls' players... Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe were Jeff Bezos' version of Paxson, BJ and Horace, while Sam Cassell and Horry had equal or greater ceiling on the offensive end as Pippen.. They had a better roster top to bottom, which is why Hakeem didn't have to produce like MJ to win.

sdot_thadon

09-19-2024, 09:39 PM

Actual footage of Jordan attempting a game winner over Hakeem

https://i.ibb.co/fC2Mn2S/IMG-9976.gif

:oldlol:

3ba11

09-19-2024, 10:13 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-25-2015/_CiUgr.gif

ShawkFactory

09-19-2024, 10:16 PM

I feel like we’ve in live time just been through the process of a dude who has just jerked off.

This is odd.

Carbine

09-19-2024, 10:31 PM

hakeem's THIRD option did this:

FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

So no

And based on PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM, the gap between Hakeem and his 2nd option in 1994 was much smaller than the gap between MJ and his 2nd option in 1993 Playoffs and Finals...

The 94' Rockets had rich man's version of all the Bulls' players... Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe were Jeff Bezos' version of Paxson, BJ and Horace, while Sam Cassell and Horry had equal or greater ceiling on the offensive end as Pippen.. They had a better roster top to bottom, which is why Hakeem didn't have to produce like MJ to win.

Dude Hakeem average 15 more PPG than his second option in 1994 while also leading the team in rebounds, blocks, steals and assists for the entire playoffs.

Jordan out produced his #2 guy by the same 15PPG during championship runs but he did not have to carry the burden of also being the best in every other category like 1994 Hakeem.

3ba11

09-19-2024, 10:44 PM

..
Robinson walking right around Hakeem like he isn't even there lol.. .:oldlol:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2024/OKUejU.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2024/VZiBoz.gif

3ba11

09-19-2024, 10:50 PM

Dude Hakeem average 15 more PPG than his second option in 1994 while also leading the team in rebounds, blocks, steals and assists for the entire playoffs.

Jordan out produced his #2 guy by the same 15PPG during championship runs but he did not have to carry the burden of also being the best in every other category like 1994 Hakeem.

Hakeem needed teammates get him the ball, space the floor, and hit big shots, while MJ ran the whole game on offense, so there's no comparison.. MJ was the goat offensive player in 1993, while still being #2 for DPOY (Pippen didn't rank at all that year), and we know that Jordan's defense carries better over eras than Hakeem.

There's a difference between goat scoring and everything below - aka Hakeem never had to average 40 ppg or 38% of his team's points (goat scoring), or lead the league in usage while winning (unprecedented) ... But lets allow the stats to do the talking - according to PER, WS/48, VORP, and BPM, there was a much bigger gap between Jordan and his 2nd option than Hakeem and his 2nd option.

3ba11

09-19-2024, 10:54 PM

hakeem's THIRD option did this:

FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

So no

And based on PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM, the gap between Hakeem and his 2nd option in 1994 was much smaller than the gap between MJ and his 2nd option in 1993 Playoffs and Finals...

The 94' Rockets had rich man's version of all the Bulls' players... Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe were Jeff Bezos' version of Paxson, BJ and Horace, while Sam Cassell and Horry had equal or greater ceiling on the offensive end as Pippen.. They had a better roster top to bottom, which is why Hakeem didn't have to produce like MJ to win.

https://media.tenor.com/zdFtiktD6-wAAAAM/accomplished-job.gif

3ba11

09-20-2024, 01:51 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2024/_aiwGi.gif

3ba11

09-20-2024, 01:53 AM

..
Robinson walking right around Hakeem like he isn't even there lol.. .:oldlol:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2024/OKUejU.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-20-2024/VZiBoz.gif

ooooh... hakeem looks super quick and light on his feet... smh... :kobe:... hakeem was a CLUNKY mf

Axe

09-20-2024, 01:57 AM

1-9

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 11:00 AM

hakeem's THIRD option did this:

FINALS

95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS

So no

And based on PER, WS/48, VORP and BPM, the gap between Hakeem and his 2nd option in 1994 was much smaller than the gap between MJ and his 2nd option in 1993 Playoffs and Finals...

The 94' Rockets had rich man's version of all the Bulls' players... Kenny Smith, Maxwell and Thorpe were Jeff Bezos' version of Paxson, BJ and Horace, while Sam Cassell and Horry had equal or greater ceiling on the offensive end as Pippen.. They had a better roster top to bottom, which is why Hakeem didn't have to produce like MJ to win.

Superstar Wade's 2014 Finals gamescore 7.9
Superstar Bosh had a 10.6 gamescore

Both worse than every Pip Finals...:lol

warriorfan

09-20-2024, 11:28 AM

Superstar Wade's 2014 Finals gamescore 7.9
Superstar Bosh had a 10.6 gamescore

Both worse than every Pip Finals...:lol

Ball domination leads to a suppression of teammate statistics.

Wade won the Finals by himself pretty much before he took the court with Lebron. Scottie never could do that.

Bosh was putting up a hyper efficient 24 ppg….Scottie could never.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 11:31 AM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-24-2021/pPs2wv.gif

Superstar Wade's 2014 Finals gamescore 7.9
Superstar Bosh had a 10.6 gamescore

Both worse than every Pip Finals...:lol

History shows that everyone eventually turns to mush alongside Lebron - let's start with Mo Williams, who was reduced from 09' to 10' and was becoming less effective alongside Lebron as time progressed... Kuzma also began as a budding star (above), but he was a 12 ppg bum by the time he escaped lebron - his career would've been destroyed if he never escaped bron-ball... And then look at Wade - he had a resurgence after Lebron left in 2016 by nearly carrying the Heat to the ECF... Of course Lebron cratered Larry Hughes, Love, and Jamison IMMEDIATELY - there was no gradual decline like the others.. Love of course was destroyed and would've been much better off collecting All-NBA awards in Minnesota where he was a HOF lock - literally 100% on bballref in 2014, but now he's like 50% or something the last time I checked... The list goes on and on... What happened to IT?.. Where is Clarkson?... Ingram is another one that was lucky to escape... The list goes on and on... Westbrook saw a resurgence of respect on the Clippers and I believe made the playoffs with them just like he did every other team in his career, EXCEPT alongside bron-ball.. the list goes on and on.. Lebron is a teammate-craterer.... his game destroys teammates and he sacrifices teammates to employ "bron-ball", aka goat stat-padder

SouBeachTalents

09-20-2024, 11:38 AM

Ball domination leads to a suppression of teammate statistics.

Wade won the Finals by himself pretty much before he took the court with Lebron. Scottie never could do that.

Bosh was putting up a hyper efficient 24 ppg….Scottie could never.
You don't actually think Bosh was better than Pippen, do you.

1987_Lakers

09-20-2024, 12:38 PM

Actual footage of Jordan attempting a game winner over Hakeem

https://i.ibb.co/fC2Mn2S/IMG-9976.gif

Just like that, this thread is over. :oldlol:

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 12:55 PM

Ball domination leads to a suppression of teammate statistics.

Wade won the Finals by himself pretty much before he took the court with Lebron. Scottie never could do that.

Bosh was putting up a hyper efficient 24 ppg….Scottie could never.
Wade basically won by himself??..... extremely dumb

Scottie won more playoff games in 1 season as first option than Bosh did in his first 7 seasons combined.

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 12:58 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-24-2021/pPs2wv.gif

History shows that everyone eventually turns to mush alongside Lebron - let's start with Mo Williams, who was reduced from 09' to 10' and was becoming less effective alongside Lebron as time progressed... Kuzma also began as a budding star (above), but he was a 12 ppg bum by the time he escaped lebron - his career would've been destroyed if he never escaped bron-ball... And then look at Wade - he had a resurgence after Lebron left in 2016 by nearly carrying the Heat to the ECF... Of course Lebron cratered Larry Hughes, Love, and Jamison IMMEDIATELY - there was no gradual decline like the others.. Love of course was destroyed and would've been much better off collecting All-NBA awards in Minnesota where he was a HOF lock - literally 100% on bballref in 2014, but now he's like 50% or something the last time I checked... The list goes on and on... What happened to IT?.. Where is Clarkson?... Ingram is another one that was lucky to escape... The list goes on and on... Westbrook saw a resurgence of respect on the Clippers and I believe made the playoffs with them just like he did every other team in his career, EXCEPT alongside bron-ball.. the list goes on and on.. Lebron is a teammate-craterer.... his game destroys teammates and he sacrifices teammates to employ "bron-ball", aka goat stat-padder

You've referred to 2014 Heat a superteam many times. Now they weren't all of a sudden cause I handed your ass to ya?

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 01:07 PM

You don't actually think Bosh was better than Pippen, do you.

You’re in a thread where someone is using game scores from a 4 game sample for one guy and VORP from the two stars to make the argument that one supporting cast is superior to another.

I think it’s safe to say that you can take everything said here with a grain of salt..

warriorfan

09-20-2024, 02:16 PM

You don't actually think Bosh was better than Pippen, do you.

It’s a lot closer than some would think. Bosh was way more skilled. Pippen had better energy and defense I guess?

Wade basically won by himself??..... extremely dumb

Scottie won more playoff games in 1 season as first option than Bosh did in his first 7 seasons combined.

How many playoff games is Scottie winning on those Raptor teams?

No seriously, no ducking, give us a number.

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 02:22 PM

It’s a lot closer than some would think. Bosh was way more skilled. Pippen had better energy and defense I guess?

How many playoff games is Scottie winning on those Raptor teams?

No seriously, no ducking, give us a number.

So you're saying the 24ppg Bosh achieved (your favorite thing you praise him for) was done on a garbage team?

WOW.... never seen a player do that before him, huh??

warriorfan

09-20-2024, 02:30 PM

So you're saying the 24ppg Bosh achieved (your favorite thing you praise him for) was done on a garbage team?

WOW.... never seen a player do that before him, huh??

never seen scottie do it lol

but that’s what I thought chico, you couldn’t even give us a number. lol

1987_Lakers

09-20-2024, 02:40 PM

It’s a lot closer than some would think.

:roll:

dankok8

09-20-2024, 02:41 PM

StrongLurk

09-20-2024, 02:46 PM

Imagine being someone who calls Hakeem scared and slow-footed. :facepalm

Short of maybe Garnett, Hakeem is literally the fastest big in the modern era in terms of the ground he could cover on defense and he got posterized a lot precisely because he was never scared to go up and challenge dunkers.

Why are you surprised given it's OP? Here is OP's classic playbook.

When comparing MJ to his peers, his peers "suck", but then when comparing those same "peers" to Lebron, those peers are suddenly "hall of fame superstars".

OP is just a pathetic troll.

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 02:49 PM

never seen scottie do it lol

but that’s what I thought chico, you couldn’t even give us a number. lol

Pippen given 7yrs to win more than 3 playoff games? I like my betting chances.

At least you admit Bosh's 24ppg doesn't mean shit on a garbage team.

warriorfan

09-20-2024, 03:01 PM

Pippen given 7yrs to win more than 3 playoff games? I like my betting chances.

At least you admit Bosh's 24ppg doesn't mean shit on a garbage team.

Individual stats and accolades don’t matter unless you win I guess?

Well that settles it, MJ > Lebron.

Nighty night.

SouBeachTalents

09-20-2024, 03:10 PM

It’s a lot closer than some would think. Bosh was way more skilled. Pippen had better energy and defense I guess?

How many playoff games is Scottie winning on those Raptor teams?

No seriously, no ducking, give us a number.
Bosh is a marginally better scorer, he had the green light on shit teams and only cracked 23 ppg once, and he's clearly a better shooter as well. But the other major facets of the game like defense & playmaking, Pippen frankly blows him away.

Those Raptor teams were bad but if you swap '91-'95 Pippen with '06-'10 Bosh, there's no way he's only winning 33 & 27 games like Bosh was in some of those seasons. I think he'd have the Raptors in the playoffs, esp in the East, on a regular basis. How he fares in the playoffs is anybody's guess, but I'm betting pretty confidently on the over of 3 playoff wins.

I know he's caught up in the LeBron agenda, but you just overrate Bosh if you really think he's in Pippen's tier, Pip is clearly the better and more impactful player of the two.

Hey Yo

09-20-2024, 03:18 PM

Individual stats and accolades don’t matter unless you win I guess?

Well that settles it, MJ > Lebron.

Nighty night.

LOL... we're talking about winning more than 3 postseason games, in 7yrs, on a garbage team, which obviously refers to the first round.

Your kick is no good due to moving the goalpost.

Kblaze8855

09-20-2024, 07:59 PM

It’s a lot closer than some would think. Bosh was way more skilled. Pippen had better energy and defense I guess?

No he wasn’t. Bosh is a far worse ball handler, passer, and didn’t have range off the dribble. He was a better spot up 18 foot shooter(and 3 at the very end) but he wasn’t one to dribble into a long range shot. He was a faceup mismatch on many bigs but he wasn’t some overwhelming scorer for a guy who had people talk about his scoring.

A lot of troll posts give people a weird idea of how Pippen actually scored. You’d think he scored 20 a game on transition dunks. There aren’t enough fast breaks in the world to score as much as he did. And if there were a tremendous number of athletes don’t use them to score that much.

Darius Miles couldn’t just run to 20 a game. Nobody could back then either.

At the end of a game Bosh and Pippen are gonna have the same 18-22 for the most part. Pippen is just gonna run his offense and help others a lot more while they do it.

Axe

09-20-2024, 08:08 PM

1-9

3ba11

09-20-2024, 08:29 PM

Hey Yo be bullshittin

3ba11

09-20-2024, 08:44 PM

.
1998 Playoffs vs Pacers

Kemp........ 26.0 on 47% (carrying Big Z)
Pippen'...... 16.6 on 39% (carried by MJ)

You’re in a thread where someone is using game scores from a 4 game sample for one guy and VORP from the two stars to make the argument that one supporting cast is superior to another.

I think it’s safe to say that you can take everything said here with a grain of salt..

It isn't a 4 game sample - Pippen played in 6 Finals and 35 Finals games, yet he still never matched Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals...

Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from the 95' Finals, so the point is that IT'S A LOW BAR to find comparable talents and caliber to Pippen because Pippen's best performance wasn't much.. He was mostly a transition player/dunker, so this low peak capability "wasn't on scouting reports", according to Shaq, Kenny Smith, Isiah, Laimbeer, Chuck Daly, Reggie Miller, Barkley and others (let me know if you need sources for any of these).

So that's the point of comparing Pippen's performance against the same competition that others faced - tons of guys such as Horry, X-Man, Miller or Kemp can easily destroy Pippen's performance against the exact same comp.. Of course, we know that Pippen's ineptness for 3 straight seasons to start his career cost MJ 3 titles.. This matters because Horry was a double-digit starter as a rookie, while being the 2nd-best player on a champion in Year 2 and playing better than Pippen ever played in Year 3 (95' Finals) - all of this is far better than Pippen's first 3 years, so that's how bad PIppen was.. Nearly anyone could've replaced him and won with MJ.

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 09:04 PM

.

It isn't a 4 game sample

The 1995 finals was 4 games. So yes, Robert Horry's data sample is exactly that.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 09:12 PM

The 1995 finals was 4 games. So yes, Robert Horry's data sample is exactly that.

Pippen couldn't match it in 35 Finals games plus 6 more against the 95' Magic in the ECSF, and it wasn't just Horry that Pippen couldn't match:

Kemp drastically outplayed Pippen against the same playoff opponent (98' Pacers):

Kemp vs 98' Pacers........... 26 on 47% (carrying Big Z)
Pippen vs 98' Pacers'......... 16 on 39% (carried by MJ)

Reggie Miller drastically outplayed Pippen 6 of 6 times against the same playoff opponent:

R Miller vs. 90' Pistons..... 20.7 on 57%... 17.9 usage
Pippen. vs. 90' Pistons..... 16.6 on 43%... 20.4 usage

R Miller vs 93' Knicks....... 31.5 on 53%... 27.5 usage
Pippen. vs 93' Knicks....... 22.5 on 51%... 28.4 usage

R Miller vs 94' Knicks....... 24.7 on 44%... 30.1 usage
Pippen. vs 94' Knicks....... 21.7 on 41%... 31.7 usage

R Miller vs 95' Magic........ 25.9 on 52%... 26.2 usage
Pippen. vs 95' Magic........ 19.0 on 42%... 23.1 usage

R Miller vs 00' Lakers....... 24.3 on 41%... 25.0 usage
Pippen. vs 00' Lakers....... 15.1 on 43%... 19.5 usage
Pippen. vs 99' Lakers....... 18.3 on 33%... 23.5 usage

R Miller 98' ECF............... 17.4 on 41%... 21.1 usage
Pippen. 98' ECF............... 16.6 on 39%... 26.0 usage

3rd-year Horry outplayed Pippen against the 95' Magic, and Pippen is 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals:

1995 Playoffs vs Magic

Horry............ 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS... 19.0 gmsc
Pippen.......... 19/10/6/1/1 on 52 TS... 15.8 gmsc

3ba11

09-20-2024, 09:15 PM

You've referred to 2014 Heat a superteam many times. Now they weren't all of a sudden cause I handed your ass to ya?

2014 ECF

Lebron (https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-pacers.html)......... 22.8 on 56%
Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2014-nba-eastern-conference-finals-heat-vs-pacers.html)........... 19.8 on 55%

2014 ECF - Clutch-Time Stats

Wade (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?PORound=3&Season=2013-14&dir=A&sort=PTS)............ 4.5 pts on 80% (2.0 for 2.5 fga)
Lebron (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/clutch-traditional?PORound=3&Season=2013-14&dir=A&sort=PTS).......... 4.5 pts on 50% (1.5 for 3.0 fga)

^^^ Wade was great in the 2014 ECF by virtue of being equal-scoring partner to Lebron and the "closer" (shown above) - he was an all-star from 2011-2016 and nearly carried the Heat to the 16' ECF after Lebron left, despite being old at that point.

So Wade simply had a bad series in the 14' Finals, and that's the critical issue because MJ STILL WON WITH THAT - it's just another distinction between MJ and Lebron - MJ routinely beat top teams with bed-wetting sidekicks, while Lebron never did.. Lebron never beat a top 5 SRS or Finals teams with weak scoring & efficiency from a sidekick, and he never defeated max defensive attention (never carried the scoring load on the championship level).

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 09:17 PM

If Horry in 95 against the Magic outplayed Jordan in 96 against Seattle...then how the hell did the Bulls beat that juggernaut Sonics team with 4 guys on it better than Pippen? One of lifes great mysteries.

tpols

09-20-2024, 09:41 PM

No he wasn’t. Bosh is a far worse ball handler, passer, and didn’t have range off the dribble. He was a better spot up 18 foot shooter(and 3 at the very end) but he wasn’t one to dribble into a long range shot. He was a faceup mismatch on many bigs but he wasn’t some overwhelming scorer for a guy who had people talk about his scoring.

A lot of troll posts give people a weird idea of how Pippen actually scored. You’d think he scored 20 a game on transition dunks. There aren’t enough fast breaks in the world to score as much as he did. And if there were a tremendous number of athletes don’t use them to score that much.

Darius Miles couldn’t just run to 20 a game. Nobody could back then either.

At the end of a game Bosh and Pippen are gonna have the same 18-22 for the most part. Pippen is just gonna run his offense and help others a lot more while they do it.

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 09:52 PM

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

Why does Pippen get credit for his defense, while guys like Butler, PG13, and others are not considered better than say, Luka based on the same logic.

The reality is that no one gives a crap about defense, in part because intuitively people understand on some level that individual defense is only loosely correlated with a great team defense because there are many ways to skin a cat - weaker shooters and offensive players like Pippen require expensive offensive help, while great offensive players like Luka, Bird or Jordan can be surrounded by cheap defenders and actually yield a better defensive roster and ranking much of the time.

No amount of defense would stop AD from getting traded if he put up Pippen's scoring & efficiency, and otherwise Lebron needed 2 star teammates to win with Pippen-production at sidekick

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 09:54 PM

Chris Bosh was clearly a more talented halfcourt scorer than Pippen. You're capping hard here.

If Pippen was slightly better overall it was because of his defense, not his offense.

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders he needed to be set up.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 10:15 PM

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/py8MDt.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/OXpVT5.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/C5oE5r.gif

Bosh's ground-breaking PNR defense allowed the Heat to win without much rim protection, aka small-ball, so why wouldn't this be recognized as All-Defense alongside MJ, due to the unprecedented winning spotlight, and also due to the fact that MJ was a DPOY that already has the media's brain geared to view his teams as "defensive".. It benefitted Pippen that he landed alongside a DPOY that already had the media trained to view and vote a certain way... The reality is that Bosh played All-Defense for the Heat but this didn't cover up his offensive bed-wettings like it did for Pippen.. that's the double-standard.. And the media agenda is different - the media agenda has evolved over the years to crap on Lebron's teammates and say that they aren't enough help, which contrasts with the media urging MJ to "elevate" teammates.. carry on

tpols

09-20-2024, 10:20 PM

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders and he needed to be set up.

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...? :oldlol:

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 10:32 PM

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...? :oldlol:

Ummm…the point guards? :lol

While not spectacular overall players by any stretch, Calderón and Jarrett Jack were very sound and heady playmaking points. Hedo knew where to go too.

You thought you had me on that one. Damn.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 10:38 PM

We know that Bosh > Pippen because Bosh didn't need the winning spotlight to be seen as great and get All-NBA - guys like Shaq, Lebron, Love, MJ, Bosh or Wade were so good that everyone was forced to make them All-NBA regardless of winning, while other guys like Pau, Pippen and Klay were borderline or below and therefore needed winning spotlight to be seen as good and All-NBA-worthy.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 10:40 PM

I mean he’s fairly spot on. Bosh was better at certain things as a scorer. Pretty automatic as a pick and pop mid range guy. He could take slower guys off the dribble and had soft touch but wasn’t a playmaker and against better defenders he needed to be set up.

Similar to Love, Bosh was a traditional in-out big that Lebron couldn't fit with.. Of course both Love and Bosh were sophisticated, all-round players and shooters, so they could adapt and become excellent PNR bigs, but that wasn't their game before joining Lebron.. It ultimately reduced them to lower-producers, which prevented the team from playing to capacity.. Lebron's weak off-ball ability to play with in-out bigs like Bosh, Pau, Love or Shaq is why Kobe is far superior and could win with 2nd option that was worse than Love or Bosh.

tpols

09-20-2024, 10:47 PM

Ummm…the point guards? :lol

While not spectacular overall players by any stretch, Calderón and Jarrett Jack were very sound and heady playmaking points. Hedo knew where to go too.

You thought you had me on that one. Damn.

:roll:

That's a total joke bro. You could say that about literally any point guard in the league. Calderon and Jack averaged 10/5 and we're average at best help. Probably below average actually for the whole NBA.

Bosh just had a super slick midrange scoring game. He had an auto jumper from there and a lot of moves Pippen simply didn't have.

You don't put up 24 ppg on 117 ORTG with crap help without having great creation ability.

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 10:56 PM

:roll:

That's a total joke bro. You could say that about literally any point guard in the league. Calderon and Jack averaged 10/5 and we're average at best help. Probably below average actually for the whole NBA.

Bosh just had a super slick midrange scoring game. He had an auto jumper from there and a lot of moves Pippen simply didn't have.

You don't put up 24 ppg on 117 ORTG with crap help without having great creation ability.

Both were smart and sound-playmaking points who knew how to get the ball to a guy in his spots. Neither were scorers and I think both were bad defensively but yea..they were solid, smart pass-first PGs.

Bosh was not an amazing self-creator. They don’t have the numbers that go back that far but I’d imagine he was assisted on a fairly high percentage of his buckets. Unless there was a favorable matchup he wasn’t just like a give him the ball and get out of his way guy at all.

ILLsmak

09-20-2024, 10:57 PM

Bosh is a go to scoring big and pip is a playmaking wing. What is going on here lol

Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqqFX4ax-0

-Smak

3ba11

09-20-2024, 10:59 PM

3ba11

09-20-2024, 10:59 PM

Career Rankings

PER:

Anthony Davis....3
Dwayne Wade......21
Kyrie Irving.....33
Kevin Love.......45
Chris Bosh.......62
Scottie Pippen...132
Horace Grant.....185

OBPM:

Anthony Davis....12
Kyrie Irving.....13
Dwayne Wade......25
Kevin Love.......29
Scottie Pippen...90
Chris Bosh.......102
Horace Grant.....107

WS/48:

Anthony Davis....13
Horace Grant.....55
Kevin Love.......57
Kyrie Irving.....68
Dwayne Wade......70
Chris Bosh.......76
Scottie Pippen...129

Ortg:

Anthony Davis....28
Kevin Love.......47
Kyrie Irving.....89
Chris Bosh.......107
Dwayne Wade......231
Scottie Pippen...NR top 250

Effective Field Goal Percentage:

Anthony Davis....86
Kyrie Irving.....99
Horace Grant.....206
Kevin Love.......225
Chris Bosh.......227
Scottie Pippen...244
Dwayne Wade......NR top 250

True Shooting:

Anthony Davis.....41
Kyrie Irving......84
Chris Bosh........89
Kevin Love........92
Dwayne Wade.......183
Dennis Rodman.....244 :rockon:
Scoottie Pippen...NR top 250 :facepalm
Horace Grant......NR top 250

BPM:

Anthony Davis.....12
Dwayne Wade.......22
Kyrie Irving......32
Scottie Pippen....35
Kevin Love........48
Chris Bosh........134
Horace Grant......176

Notice that all the real stats that are actually measuring something tangible (PER, OBPM, Ortg, WS/48, eFG%, TS%, etc) actually correlate very closely with one another in rankings. They all say that Pippen was maybe a top-100 offensive player all-time. Pippen wasn't even a Chris Bosh level offensive talent.

In summation, in order for Lebron to be on the level of Jordan, he would need to win six titles and win six Finals MVP's with a Chris Bosh/Kevin Love level player as his second option.

https://j.gifs.com/1rnKoo.gif

tpols

09-20-2024, 11:06 PM

ShawkFactory

09-20-2024, 11:09 PM

3ba11

09-20-2024, 11:11 PM

You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.

Bosh was All-NBA without developing under Jordan or winning titles in the triangle, so he would be amazing if he DID develop under Jordan and get that defensive perception that Pippen enjoyed, while having his high-post mastery fit like a glove in the triangle.. Bosh was dominant from the high post and would lift the triangle to new heights alongside MJ...

Pippen's weaker shooting and post play didn't fit as well in the triangle and was frequently carried by MJ - he was carried in every series if we're using the same standards that most guys use or that people use when looking at Lebron's teammates and the production he requires from them to win.

3ba11

09-20-2024, 11:39 PM

You clearly never watched raptor Bosh. They ran the offense through him out of the high post face up midrange.

https://youtu.be/lrqqFX4ax-0?si=L1Lsuvvmm4k5ivgp

@:40 is especially impressive taking peak Dwight off the dribble and reverse slamming on him.

But his jumper was high arcing and buttery smooth lefty. And he had a lot of counters and quickness to beat dudes off 1-2 dribbles if they didn't close out well.

Wow I hope everyone can see how much Bosh's high post mastery, quick moves and touch would DOMINATE the triangle FAR more than Pau ever did.. Kobe would've easily destroyed Boston in 2008 and 3-peated with Bosh instead of Pau.. Pau got housed by KG in 08', whereas Bosh was a more sophisticated player on both ends of the floor, since he had ground-breaking PNR defense too in addition to offensive versatility..

tpols

09-21-2024, 10:35 AM

Wow I hope everyone can see how much Bosh's high post mastery, quick moves and touch would DOMINATE the triangle FAR more than Pau ever did.. Kobe would've easily destroyed Boston in 2008 and 3-peated with Bosh instead of Pau.. Pau got housed by KG in 08', whereas Bosh was a more sophisticated player on both ends of the floor, since he had ground-breaking PNR defense too in addition to offensive versatility..

Pau brought more low post scoring and passing than Bosh. But Bosh was a more versatile defender due to superior athleticism and had a higher scoring cieling. They were similar caliber players, both great players albeit different styles. Paus style was perfect for the triangle because he is very high IQ. Bosh is a smart guy too but Pau is like doctor smart.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 10:59 AM

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...? :oldlol:

Bosh is a career 19 a game guy who retired before playing the 6–7 aging years guys generally do to damage career averages. Hes the type to play 37-40 minutes for 22 points. He wasn’t some bigtime scorer.

Prime Bosh and a prime Pippen are both gonna give you 20-24 Bosh more often towards the 24 while he was definitely a worse playmaker and did not run offenses. Pippen was one of the better point guards in the nba even washed up. The Blazers made almost retired Scottie the point and went like 30-8 to save their season one year.

Scottie was a better shooter off the dribble, a better ball handler, and a much better playmaker who scored in the same range while being one of the goat defenders.

2 more points out of 220 scored going both ways that game doesn’t decide which player was more impactful. And not definitely doesn’t determine skill.

Bosh wasn’t some Lamar Odom type guard skill big.

He was a great faceup guy who was quick and could shoot who developed more range at the end.

He wasn’t more skilled as a total player than Pippen if only for how much handles and playmaking contribute to total skills.

Pippen was jab stepping and blowing by people for dunks all the time. Hitting little pull-ups. Hooks with both hands. He hit spot up threes. A lot of the things Bosh did. But Bosh was not bringing the ball up and dribbling at 28 feet then stepping into comfortable threes. He wasn’t that kinda hybrid big to make the argument is more skilled than a point forward.

Not an Odom. Not a KG really. Not an Antione Walker. Hell he wasn’t as nimble or skilled with the ball as Derrick Coleman. You watch Vin Baker Bucks highlights you will see a lot Bosh wasn’t routinely doing handles wise.

Great player. Not the type to compare skills wise to a ball handling wing who ran teams.

And he wasn’t a “Jesus Christ….” shot maker like Dirk to make up the difference either.

Great player…not a hybrid wing skills all around 4 to put into a total skills discussion.

You could argue he was better than some who were(Odom…Antione Walker) but that wasn’t the issue.

Skilled guy for the kind of player he was. But not on that “Almost like a wing” list of skilled bigs.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 11:03 AM

Pau brought more low post scoring and passing than Bosh. But Bosh was a more versatile defender due to superior athleticism and had a higher scoring cieling. They were similar caliber players, both great players albeit different styles. Paus style was perfect for the triangle because he is very high IQ. Bosh is a smart guy too but Pau is like doctor smart.

Pau was more skilled than Bosh on offense for sure. Pau was just shy of guard skill level as a big. He was held back by body type not skills. Pau passed like he was 5’10” instinct, accuracy, and quick decision wise he was just too big to move like one and not limber enough to get low and dribble like a few of the bigs in question could.

The Odom types might literally be one in a million. Probably more than that.

Bosh could be said to be better due to defense….especially considering how important his defensive role was in Miami. But I don’t think he has a case to be more skilled.

warriorfan

09-21-2024, 11:48 AM

The underrating of bosh is disgusting

The best they can muster is “he didn’t have success when jose calderon was his second best player!”

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 12:14 PM

Chris Bosh averaged 24 ppg on elite efficiency in 2010 with Andrea Bargnani as his only decent offensive help. Who the **** was "setting him up"...? :oldlol:

I knew I remembered this being the case but decided to actually take a few minutes to look into it to back my case up, so thought I'd readdress. Jose Calderon was absolutely a top-tier playmaking point guard. He was top 5 in the league in assists in 08 and 09 before Jack came in 10 and split PGs duties, and was a very high IQ player.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85ryzMcWunU

Before people inevitably misinterpret this as me saying Calderon was great overall "help"...stop it. He had his deficiencies as an overall player, particularly on defense.

But when I say:

and against better defenders and he needed to be set up.

And get met with "hurrr who was setting him up, Bargnani? LULZ". No...by one of the better set-up men in the league.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 12:18 PM

The underrating of bosh is disgusting

The best they can muster is “he didn’t have success when jose calderon was his second best player!”

Muster against what?

The same per list that had David Lee ahead of prime Kobe in 2010? If not for being the third option on the Heat there would be no more reason to talk about him than a good 2 dozen random 20-25 ppg bigs over the years.

Perfectly good player. Great even. But nothing to be talked about 15 years later. He was basically Jermaine O’Neal. Fans were torn at the time actually

Chris Bosh, hes younger and durable. Chris also has more character IMO

For a seven-game series you almost have to take O'Neal. Bosh doesn't have playoff experience.

But damn, am I ever looking forward to Bosh in the playoffs, anyways.

Chris bosh is younger and is already a starting allstar

JO is a veteran, an excellent Defender, leads the league in blocks per game, has been an allstar plenty of times

JO is better now but bosh will be better in 1-2 years...

I'd Take Bosh

I'd take Bosh even for the playoffs. This guy plays like hes been in the league for years.

Bosh owns Jermaine Oneal.

How are they similar, JO is much more of a back to the basket player. Bosh has much more range than JO and can put the ball on the floor from almost on the perimeter versus other bigs. JO plays defense, Bosh does not.

I think it would have to depend solely on what you're trying to do with your team, what kind of team you're building or think you can put together easier. If you're just building for the future, and need the person that you want as the face of your franchise for as long as possible... Bosh. He's got a lot of miles left on him, and he's already an all-star.

If you're building for right now, and the immediate future, however, it depends on what you figure your team will be doing. Jermaine O'Neal is miles ahead of Bosh in all defensive abilities. He's a better shot blocker, better post defender, better weak-side help guy, and is generally just hard to get a shot off on. If you're looking to build an offensive team, however, Chris Bosh is already more polished than Jermaine in the post. (Though Jermaine has an impressive skill set in there, especially his left hand. Bosh doesn't have nearly as good of a right hand as Jermaine has for a left.) Bosh is also a good passer, and has a good understanding of how offenses works. He's also a character guy, and clearly willing to give up shots in order for the offense to run smoothly, haven't seen as much of that with O'Neal. Then there's the fact that every time I see Bosh playing defense, you get the distinct feeling that, eventually, he's going to block a shot with his neck. I'm almost positive it's going to happen... and it will be the greatest block of all time.

based on that article - in a 7 round series - JO by far.

Jermaine O'neal. He's the better rebounder, post up scorer, and post defender, and those are the three most important attributes for a PF.

Bosh's defense isn't great, but it is decent. He certainly has a far better offensive game, which in my opinion surpasses anything JO can do on defense.

JO. Bosh doesn't appear physical enough. Hey, there was a game some time ago where Richard Jefferson completely locked up Chris Bosh and made him useless. If JO could stay more around the basket, he is a very good post player unlike Bosh.

Them ended up on the same team and my confidence they would do absolutely nothing together had Raptor fans on my ass for a while there.

Hes in a group with….

Mcdyess
Randle
Aldridge
Antawn Jamison
Juwon Howard
Zach Randolph
Larry Johnson
Boozer
Rasheed
Jermaine Oneal
Vin Baker

Somewhere in there just north of the Luis Scola, David West, and Paul Millsap level.

You can argue he’s trending towards the top of that list with guys like Pau, Shawn Kemp, and Kevin Love where we could argue you need another really small list but we aren’t talking about a whole other level.

Were talking about upper middle class stardom.

Definite star by regular player standards. But among the stars?

We talking more Allan Houston than Ray Allen. I don’t think Bosh quite crosses that line between being a regular star player and somebody to talk about for 20 years. He isn’t one of the best ever at anything that would bring him into long-term discussion.

Hes not gonna get all time rebound talk like Rodman. Hes not on a defensive goat short list or in talks for the all time all D team like a Pippen. You could actually say Love was closer to those talks for a minute. Hes exactly the type who would retire and have you not sure if he’s still playing or not like Lamarcus Aldridge. Except Aldridge made like 5 more all nba teams.

Nothing to reflect back on when you tell your kids about the game. If you have some true sickos like I was who ask about the best faceup bigs of an era? Ok.

That aside?

Toronto Bosh vanishes into history like Terry Cummings.

tpols

09-21-2024, 12:26 PM

The main thing when I watch the tape that separates Bosh from Pippen scoring wise is he simply had more moves and counters. Especially out of the face up triple threat position? Pippen didn't have that. And his jumper wasn't as smooth or reliable.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 12:31 PM

Yes Bosh was a better pure shooter. If he came along today he’d have made far more threes I’m sure.

3ba11

09-21-2024, 01:50 PM

Bosh's great PNR defense got no credit on the Heat except among people in the know

Alongside MJ, he would be all-defense just like Pippen

There are no examples of Pippen locking anyone down as the primary defender or giving the Bulls better team defense than top opponents during the 1st three-peat - the Bulls only had the #7 defense during the 1st three-peat......

The only reason Pippen's defense is lauded so much is because the media realized early on that Pippen's offense couldn't be praised and that Jordan was carrying the load.... hence the weird obsession with Pippen's defense and the resulting overranking of his career..... and "passes" given for anemic offense that no other player would get, regardless of defense.

Btw, everyone mentions that Bosh was only 20 ppg or whatever but he sacrificed his peak years for bron-ball... Also Pippen's peak was just a dunker system player for 15-20 ppg... Most importantly, look at Pippen outside the triangle that he grew up in!!!.. He was just a dunker!!! 14 on 40% in Houston and 18 on 32% in the 99' FIRST ROUND for goodness sake!!! Everyone crushes it in the first round except Pigpen!

Carbine

09-21-2024, 02:07 PM

It's one thing to "watch the tape" as Trollpols loves to say, it's another thing entirely to know what you're watching and how to interpret it.

I could make my cousin "watch the tape" about any basketball player and while he would have "watched the tape" he wouldnt know what he was talking about. Same goes for Trollpols.

Anyways, what Bosh did on a losing team really overrated the kind of player he was in retrospect. He didn't do anything remarkable. Someone has to score points on a bad team, it's not like the scores end up 120-50 when a good NBA team plays a mediocre one. Bosh just had the green light and the offense ran through him. We saw what his true role was on a title contender.... You have to compare that version of Bosh to Pippen. We never seen Pippen play for a bad team as the #1 option is his prime to see what his scoring numbers could've been. We also know what Pippen was on a championship level team, in this case the greatest modern dynasty in basketball history.

Kevin Martin in the late 00s was scoring a lot. He was doing like 25 a game on elite efficiency.... Doesn't mean he was better than Dirk Nowitzki as an offensive player.

Pippen was all NBA without Jordan. All NBA first team actually. Got 7 first place MVP votes. Bosh is one of the best #3 options. Pippen is one of the best #2 options. That's the level of difference between them as players.

warriorfan

09-21-2024, 02:09 PM

Muster against what?

The same per list that had David Lee ahead of prime Kobe in 2010? If not for being the third option on the Heat there would be no more reason to talk about him than a good 2 dozen random 20-25 ppg bigs over the years.

Perfectly good player. Great even. But nothing to be talked about 15 years later. He was basically Jermaine O’Neal. Fans were torn at the time actually

Them ended up on the same team and my confidence they would do absolutely nothing together had Raptor fans on my ass for a while there.

Hes in a group with….

Mcdyess
Randle
Aldridge
Antawn Jamison
Juwon Howard
Zach Randolph
Larry Johnson
Boozer
Rasheed
Jermaine Oneal
Vin Baker

Somewhere in there just north of the Luis Scola, David West, and Paul Millsap level.

You can argue he’s trending towards the top of that list with guys like Pau, Shawn Kemp, and Kevin Love where we could argue you need another really small list but we aren’t talking about a whole other level.

Were talking about upper middle class stardom.

Definite star by regular player standards. But among the stars?

We talking more Allan Houston than Ray Allen. I don’t think Bosh quite crosses that line between being a regular star player and somebody to talk about for 20 years. He isn’t one of the best ever at anything that would bring him into long-term discussion.

Hes not gonna get all time rebound talk like Rodman. Hes not on a defensive goat short list or in talks for the all time all D team like a Pippen. You could actually say Love was closer to those talks for a minute. Hes exactly the type who would retire and have you not sure if he’s still playing or not like Lamarcus Aldridge. Except Aldridge made like 5 more all nba teams.

Nothing to reflect back on when you tell your kids about the game. If you have some true sickos like I was who ask about the best faceup bigs of an era? Ok.

That aside?

Toronto Bosh vanishes into history like Terry Cummings.

Stop it

You are going full clown mode.

No one gives a damn about this irreverent straw man of “If Chris Bosh didn’t play with Lebron there is a chance casual fans might not then remember who he was today!”

People fading chris bosh look real loony.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 02:19 PM

Stop it

You are going full clown mode.

People fading chris bosh look real looney.

18 years of the same opinion about Bosh many of them still here to find(from what I can find I bailed in 2006). You have admitted everything you say is colored by where you stand in other arguments So I can only imagine what your true feelings were.

Chris Boshs Toronto career is already all but forgotten and he followed it up by being on the most high profile team of the last 20 years years Instead of doing more nothing for the five years he had left.

There was nothing he could do in Toronto and the five years before his condition ended his career to be particularly remembered. Real LaMarcus Aldridge shit. He’s managed to already fade away, despite being on the heat and winning, which is saying something.

That said I will put him second behind Gasol but ahead of Love.

Bosh played the right way. Did what winning took and didn’t bitch. Played defense when that was his role.

I can respect that much more than Love behavior wise. Bosh seems like a good teammate to me

warriorfan

09-21-2024, 02:28 PM

18 years of the same opinion about Bosh many of them still here to find(from what I can find I bailed in 2006). You have admitted everything you say is colored by where you stand in other arguments So I can only imagine what your true feelings were.

Chris Boshs Toronto career is already all but forgotten and he followed it up by being on the most high profile team of the last 20 years years Instead of doing more nothing for the five years he had left.

There was nothing he could do in Toronto and the five years before his condition ended his career to be particularly remembered. Real LaMarcus Aldridge shit. He’s managed to already fade away, despite being on the heat and winning, which is saying something.

That said I will put him second behind Gasol but ahead of Love.

Bosh played the right way. Did what winning took and didn’t bitch. Played defense when that was his role.

I can respect that much more than Love behavior wise. Bosh seems like a good teammate to me

Because some casual fan dipshits who don’t know ball are ignorant doesn’t about Chris Bosh….that doesn’t make him any worse of a basketball player.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 02:42 PM

Of course not. He just wasn’t an elite one. And a great many people we have record of not thinking he was suddenly decided otherwise in retrospect because they need him to be elite to use as a weapon in a dumb fight.

He was Bucks Baker. Nugget Mcdyess. Blazers Aldridge. Which is fine.

tpols

09-21-2024, 02:58 PM

Yes Bosh was a better pure shooter. If he came along today he’d have made far more threes I’m sure.

Chris Boshs most efficient season ever was in 2006 when he made zero 3pters on the entire season. His 2nd and 3rd most efficient seasons ever were in 2008 and 2010 when he barely took them as well. Post 2013 he started launching them and he was never as efficient scoring as he was on the Raptors and thats despite facing more defensive attention with Toronto than with playing alongside Lebron and Wade.

A lot of the kiddies today think chucking 3s is the only way to efficiently score. For role players that is true. Because they don't have any 2pt mastery skillset. Bosh actually did have that. He produced on 118 ORTG with the Raptors with 0 3pt makes in 2006. That's shows extreme 2pt skillset competency. He never approached that efficiency with Miami when he was just chucking 10x more 3pt shots.

tpols

09-21-2024, 03:04 PM

Stop it

You are going full clown mode.

No one gives a damn about this irreverent straw man of “If Chris Bosh didn’t play with Lebron there is a chance casual fans might not then remember who he was today!”

People fading chris bosh look real loony.

It's really crazy because we could say the same thing about Pippen if he didn't play with MJ and was stuck on some bum lotto franchise like the mid 2000s Raptors.

Scottie wouldn't have half the accolades or esteem if he was on a terrible team which gives serious credence to the winning spotlight theory.

ILLsmak

09-21-2024, 03:11 PM

To be fair, surely there was a reason bosh was the third big three member, right? There had to be other options.

Arguing about bosh after mj dunks on hakeem, 3ball is rubbing his hands together.

-Smak

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 03:25 PM

It's really crazy because we could say the same thing about Pippen if he didn't play with MJ and was stuck on some bum lotto franchise like the mid 2000s Raptors.

Scottie wouldn't have half the accolades or esteem if he was on a terrible team which gives serious credence to the winning spotlight theory.

what’s crazy to me is I didn’t say if he didn’t play with LeBron nobody would remember him now. And the reason I wouldn’t say that is because he did play on the heat and he is already being forgotten anyway. Chris Bosh isnt some unknown commodity. He was on the most high profile team of his era. People just don’t care. I think Draymond is going to be that way. Robert Parish is that guy for birds Celtics. Glenn Rice for that first Laker championship.

I don’t know if he’s gonna have the lasting power of James worthy.

tpols

09-21-2024, 03:32 PM

Carbine

09-21-2024, 03:38 PM

Why didn't Bosh make any all NBA teams under the "winning spotlight" theory?

Why didn't he make any all NBA defensive teams?

The winning spotlight didn't give him any accolades or high praise that otherwise would not have been given.

Scottie on a bad team is still an all star. He's still getting all NBA selections. Don't believe me? Just ask Bird. I think he knows a thing or two about talent. He coached against Pippen.

"Pippen with Jordan is the second best player in the league. Without him he's probably fourth"

If you're a top 5 player in the league that just happens to be stuck in a shitty team for years and years you still get a lot of attention. Garnett was stuck in Minnesota and still came away with a shit load of accolades.

tpols

09-21-2024, 03:47 PM

That actually makes your argument even worse the fact that Bosh made All NBA on a team where he had no star help but didn't on Miami. That proves his talent in a pure vacuum was legit.

Like I said before the Heat marginalized him. And everybody saw it. They turned an extremely skilled midrange scorer into a chucking spot up 3pt shooter. This isn't anything new.

3ba11

09-21-2024, 04:12 PM

Lebron's cast has done things that are objectively superior to Jordan's cast, such as making All-NBA before joining him and before the winning spotlight of titles (Love, Bosh, Wade), or making the Finals without him (Kyrie, Wade), or outplaying goat players like Dirk, Curry, young MJ and Jokic (Wade, Kyrie, AD).

Jordan's cast was never on this level because Jordan won with normal, "organic" casts of 1 franchise player (1 player that was asked to build something from scratch), while Lebron needed better rosters of 3 franchise players (super-team).

Despite teaming up with opposing franchise players, the "bron-ball" brand of ball mostly lost with every cast and consistently underachieved favored talent (lost with preseason favorite, or fell to underdog).

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 04:17 PM

Bosh's great PNR defense got no credit on the Heat except among people in the know!

Not even remotely true. That was always a topic of conversation.

He improved as a defender and overall basketball player with the Heat.

SouBeachTalents

09-21-2024, 04:20 PM

I love how Bosh didn't make as much as an All-NBA 3rd Team in 12 of his 13 seasons in the league, and tpols will continue to pretend that one outlier of a year he made it was the norm for him, not the exception. It's just so ridiculously disingenuous :lol

3ba11

09-21-2024, 04:22 PM

Not even remotely true. That was always a topic of conversation.

He improved as a defender and overall basketball player with the Heat.

Yeah, and that tangible credit that Bosh got for his ground-breaking PNR defense (which allowed the ground-breaking "small-ball" to even be possible) would be MORE THAN ENOUGH to get him all-defense alongside the goat and unprecedented winning spotlight of the 90's Bulls... Pippen was given All-defense for less tangible things..

So Bosh would be all-defense virtually every year, especially with MJ hogging up all the offensive spotlight - that's how the media handled such a dominant offensive player - they simply inflated the defense of everyone else so they could fill shows and have something to talk about aside from the GOAT all the time.. Bosh would benefit from this defensive inflation just like Pippen, except it wouldn't be inflation for Bosh since he actually has TANGIBLE defensive value that anyone can articulate - he made small-ball possible by showing all bigs in today's game how to play PNR defense...

So it's a travesty that Bosh didn't get all-defense and it's all due to the Klutch agenda to diminish Bron's teammates and inflate Lebron to create the current fake debate and perpetuate the fraud further.

Kblaze8855

09-21-2024, 04:34 PM

The difference between Bosh and guys like Dray or Parish is Bosh proved himself outside of a dynasty system. All NBA team member, multiple time All Star, led bum teams to playoff berths... etc.

I seriously doubt Parish or Dray ever do any of that on those lotto Toronto teams. Dray especially. But Parish too was kind of a stiff player to ever take a No. 1 scoring option role. Some guys just benefitted more from the winning spotlight. Chris Bosh wasn't really one of them. Miami made him look bad actually. Worse than what he was capable of.

Julius Randle is a multi time All Star all NBA second teamer who led a team a role players to home court when Brunson was on the Mavs. LaMarcus Aldridge led a 48 win blazer team when Brandon Roy started 23 games. Go look at the names on that roster and look at how many games they played. Gerald Wallace played 15 games. Andre Miller had 18 starts left in his career. Go look at the conversation around Jose Calderon when Arenas was mad he was getting All-Star consideration. He was definitely having a great year with Bosh compared to old Andre Miller. And La was all NBA five times and second team multiple times .It really isn’t something that automatically gets you remembered as some top player of your era.

you gotta have a hook. Something that stands out. 12 years of nothing in Toronto wouldn’t have done anything that seven years didn’t.

like I said, he was a great player. Like a huge list of other great players nobody cares about because they weren’t the special kind of great.

And the much discussed winning spotlight and championships didn’t change that.

he was both a productive loser and a selfless winner without his stock rising that much. At that point people just aren’t that blown away by the basketball being played.

You’re free to speculate as to why that is, but I think it’s the same reason most people like Bosch never grab the attention of the public. You just aren’t watching anything that special or unusual.

Great. But like Terry Cummings great. Truck Robinson great. Not the kind you’re gonna be talking about forever.

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 04:35 PM

:lol

His PNR defense wasn’t “ground-breaking”. He was just good at it. Many people are, some better than he was.

3ba11

09-21-2024, 04:43 PM

:lol

His PNR defense wasn’t “ground-breaking”. He was just good at it. Many people are, some better than he was.

Back in 2012, Bosh's defense was ground-breaking and it enabled the Heat's small-ball - this is well-known:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/py8MDt.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/OXpVT5.gif

https://i.makeagif.com/media/9-21-2024/C5oE5r.gif

Again, this TANGIBLE defensive value of making small-ball possible in 2012 is more than enough to get perennial all-defense alongside MJ, especially since Pippen got all-defense for less tangible things and also since the media gave all the offensive credit to MJ, thereby needing to inflate Bulls' defenders.. This dynamic coupled with the unprecedented winning spotlight and Bosh's tangible value is more than enough to get him all-defense every year.

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 05:07 PM

3ba11

09-21-2024, 05:29 PM

I think having Lebron James, Dwayne Wade, and Chris Bosh on a team together is what allowed the small ball to work :lol

He played strong PNR defense, a lot of people did. The biggest aspect is that he did it selflessly. Several guys could have done that. Just because he was in a situation where it was very useful doesn’t mean no one could have done it. Others just weren’t in that situation.

The reason he never made defensive team because he wasn’t anything special as a man defender, and was weak against bigger guys.

All those "lucky situation" arguments can be made for Pippen, and much more so because Pippen wasn't All-NBA until he joined MJ and started winning titles, while Bosh was All-NBA with nothing..

Btw, Bosh was league MVP for a few weeks in 2015 without Lebron before his health started to get the better of him - so Bosh was good before and after bron-ball, while the opposite was true for Pippen and the triangle - he stunk before and after it

warriorfan

09-21-2024, 07:40 PM

Julius Randle is a multi time All Star all NBA second teamer who led a team a role players to home court when Brunson was on the Mavs. LaMarcus Aldridge led a 48 win blazer team when Brandon Roy started 23 games. Go look at the names on that roster and look at how many games they played. Gerald Wallace played 15 games. Andre Miller had 18 starts left in his career. Go look at the conversation around Jose Calderon when Arenas was mad he was getting All-Star consideration. He was definitely having a great year with Bosh compared to old Andre Miller. And La was all NBA five times and second team multiple times .It really isn’t something that automatically gets you remembered as some top player of your era.

you gotta have a hook. Something that stands out. 12 years of nothing in Toronto wouldn’t have done anything that seven years didn’t.

like I said, he was a great player. Like a huge list of other great players nobody cares about because they weren’t the special kind of great.

And the much discussed winning spotlight and championships didn’t change that.

he was both a productive loser and a selfless winner without his stock rising that much. At that point people just aren’t that blown away by the basketball being played.

You’re free to speculate as to why that is, but I think it’s the same reason most people like Bosch never grab the attention of the public. You just aren’t watching anything that special or unusual.

Great. But like Terry Cummings great. Truck Robinson great. Not the kind you’re gonna be talking about forever.

bro, autistically spouting out a bunch of names isn’t gonna make Chris Bosh any worse of a player

tpols

09-21-2024, 07:56 PM

Julius Randle is a multi time All Star all NBA second teamer who led a team a role players to home court when Brunson was on the Mavs. LaMarcus Aldridge led a 48 win blazer team when Brandon Roy started 23 games. Go look at the names on that roster and look at how many games they played. Gerald Wallace played 15 games. Andre Miller had 18 starts left in his career. Go look at the conversation around Jose Calderon when Arenas was mad he was getting All-Star consideration. He was definitely having a great year with Bosh compared to old Andre Miller. And La was all NBA five times and second team multiple times .It really isn’t something that automatically gets you remembered as some top player of your era.

you gotta have a hook. Something that stands out. 12 years of nothing in Toronto wouldn’t have done anything that seven years didn’t.

like I said, he was a great player. Like a huge list of other great players nobody cares about because they weren’t the special kind of great.

And the much discussed winning spotlight and championships didn’t change that.

he was both a productive loser and a selfless winner without his stock rising that much. At that point people just aren’t that blown away by the basketball being played.

You’re free to speculate as to why that is, but I think it’s the same reason most people like Bosch never grab the attention of the public. You just aren’t watching anything that special or unusual.

Great. But like Terry Cummings great. Truck Robinson great. Not the kind you’re gonna be talking about forever.

I'm not sure how being compared to Blazers LMA or Julius Randle when he put up 25/10 on elite efficiency is a nothing burger.

Those two have had seasons as good or better than some years of prime pippen. That's why we are trying to highlight their games because they didn't have the privilege of the winning spotlight to the extent pippen did.

warriorfan

09-21-2024, 08:06 PM

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 08:52 PM

All those "lucky situation" arguments can be made for Pippen, and much more so because Pippen wasn't All-NBA until he joined MJ and started winning titles, while Bosh was All-NBA with nothing..

Btw, Bosh was league MVP for a few weeks in 2015 without Lebron before his health started to get the better of him - so Bosh was good before and after bron-ball, while the opposite was true for Pippen and the triangle - he stunk before and after it

He was drafted to the Bulls?

ShawkFactory

09-21-2024, 08:59 PM

RRR3

09-21-2024, 09:04 PM

tpols and warriorfan don't believe a single thing they're arguing in this thread.

Phoenix

09-22-2024, 09:12 AM

He was drafted to the Bulls?

Lol you caught that too? He makes it seem like Pippen had 7-8 years in the league, got traded to the Bulls and THEN he becomes an all-nba level player.

The dumbest threads get the most attention here. Well done OP, you're the only reason this forum is still running.

ILLsmak

09-22-2024, 12:57 PM

Lol you caught that too? He makes it seem like Pippen had 7-8 years in the league, got traded to the Bulls and THEN he becomes an all-nba level player.

The dumbest threads get the most attention here. Well done OP, you're the only reason this forum is still running.

Go to the Shaq vs Bron thread. haha, when people start talking about something interesting (tho that's not so interesting,) gotta stay with that. Just like Caitlin is THE TRUTH thread. The thing about 3ball is he is persistent. Gotta be as persistent. Gotta work for good bball discussion!!

-Smak

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 07:56 PM

Forgive me if I’m wrong Blaze but aren’t you one of those who blast the ring counting culture from fans? Pretty sure i’ve seen you simp for players who never won a ring and about how it’s not fair, they are still the same skill of player but there are things out of their control….

Then you come out here with this energy trying to fade Bosh like a mother ****er because he played with straight trash in Toronto for years

I would love just once for the “But didn’t you say…” Argument to not come from someone guilty of exactly what they are complaining about. Just once. On any subject. You have been talking for years about Pau playoff record before Kobe happy to ignore he won 50 games with a 13ppg James Posey as a second option in a historically tough west. “Oh but didn’t you say…” has a 100% “Wait…but didn’t YOU say…” rate.

Anyway…no. I was saying the same thing about Bosh before he even had the losing seasons in question. He just happened to go on to not do anything worth talking about to support me. I found a topic from like 08 where I listed 22 people I’d rather have and it expanded to 28 with other people’s suggestions. It included plenty of people who also weren’t winning.

Just didn’t see anything that great. It is funny watching people like you who back people using team success to prove your evaluations accurate throw it away to push agendas though. People are really picky with that. Wins and losses tell the whole story except when it doesn’t.

About the only player I give “He’s just a winner” status is Bill Russell. And he was carved from a block of pure victory so you can’t blame me for that.

I enjoy pointing out when “He just makes his team win” types choose to go the other way though.

I can give it a pass when the person in question at least did win though.

When it’s applied to people who did nothing but lose I’m gonna **** with them about it.

I can look the other way if you wanna “He just….wins!” a winner. It isn’t that simple but there’s no need to be a dick about it and fight with fans. People out here wanting to use being a winner as an argument for dudes who never won though. That shit is my bat signal.

warriorfan

09-22-2024, 08:07 PM

I would love just once for the “But didn’t you say…” Argument to not come from someone guilty of exactly what they are complaining about. Just once. On any subject. You have been talking for years about Pau playoff record before Kobe happy to ignore he won 50 games with a 13ppg James Posey as a second option in a historically tough west. “Oh but didn’t you say…” has a 100% “Wait…but didn’t YOU say…” rate.

Anyway…no. I was saying the same thing about Bosh before he even had the losing seasons in question. He just happened to go on to not do anything worth talking about to support me. I found a topic from like 08 where I listed 22 people I’d rather have and it expanded to 28 with other people’s suggestions. It included plenty of people who also weren’t winning.

Just didn’t see anything that great. It is funny watching people like you who back people using team success to prove your evaluations accurate throw it away to push agendas though. People are really picky with that. Wins and losses tell the whole story except when it doesn’t.

About the only player I give “He’s just a winner” status is Bill Russell. And he was carved from a block of pure victory so you can’t blame me for that.

I enjoy pointing out when “He just makes his team win” types choose to go the other way though.

I can give it a pass when the person in question at least did win though.

When it’s applied to people who did nothing but lose I’m gonna **** with them about it.

I can look the other way if you wanna “He just….wins!” a winner. It isn’t that simple but there’s no need to be a dick about it and fight with fans. People out here wanting to use being a winner as an argument for dudes who never won though. That shit is my bat signal.

Only ever brought up pau not winning a playoff game when dudes would try to shit on Love and Bosh for the same thing.

Once again Im pretty sure i’ve seen you simp for guys who get shit on for not having team success

Just interesting you change your tune with bosh

just saying

RRR3

09-22-2024, 08:35 PM

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 08:50 PM

I'm not sure how being compared to Blazers LMA or Julius Randle when he put up 25/10 on elite efficiency is a nothing burger.

Those two have had seasons as good or better than some years of prime pippen. That's why we are trying to highlight their games because they didn't have the privilege of the winning spotlight to the extent pippen did.

And Zach Lavine put up 24+ a game on 48/39/85 on a playoff team. I could run you down a good list of hall of famers to never do that. Even if we throw out the 3 and ft percentages.

Nobody cares. And nobody should.

All just a byproduct of the game having a set number of players and teams needing 100+ points. People not necessarily on or near the same level will be similarly productive. Especially across eras.

A lot of people do 29/6/4 without being as good as Jordan was when he won an mvp with those numbers.

There have been “Meh” 24/10s and “He’s the best in the nba” 22/12”.

And we all know it. But when we need to prop up someone we act like it’s a given the numbers translate directly to greatness.

Everyone is guilty of it to some extent I just wish we could do it without the indignation and pretense that we don’t know it’s a very flawed system.

Plenty of Randle and Bosh types have not been as good as some want them to be considered due to numbers. Plenty have been much more effective than numbers suggest.

I feel like we are all far enough along in these discussions to stop having the same fallback numbers vs “But what he win tho?” arguments.

I didn’t **** with him before it was established he didn’t make that great a difference. And I have since watched a bunch of “He just….WINS” people selectively prop up some losers and shit on others and it just happens to always fall in line with who they need to make look good or bad because of some argument about someone else’s supporting cast.

I can’t get what feels like an honest consistent across the board evaluation out of anyone.

You like the guy like him. None of my concern. The takes all just seem to fall exactly in like with what one would expect from the source.

I can show you me choosing Rodman over Love when love was having a season that statistically had no precedent. But people will pull the same shit they do with Bosh now and act like everyone was sold on him at the time.

Fans have been disregarding the production of guys they aren’t that impressed by since the start of tracking stats. But personal ties and agendas make it more or less offensive for each of us case by case.

We have all responded to some generally impressive stat line with a “…..and?” but seem shocked and appalled every time we see someone do it to one we present as evidence.

If nothing else….we should stop acting like it’s the first time every time.

An awful lot of productive people just aren’t as impressive as their supporters want others to think.

Especially ones with “That nice….” stats instead of “Jesus Christ….” stats.

And in truth?

A few of the “Jesus Christ….” lines aren’t THAT amazing either basketball playing wise. Not many. But a few.

The Bosh type numbers have a long history of being attached to people we don’t look back on as special. There is a whole sack of 22ish and 9ish guys we don’t give two shits about.

He doesn’t have a “Thing”.

It’s probably time to stop being surprised he’s not that highly regarded in retrospect. He got the winners bump. It keeps him out of Randle and Aldridge territory for the most part. But that’s where he lives production wise and success wise.

He managed to escape that zone without the special part of his game that provides the hook for most borderline all nba types who last in our memories. He got to be an all star doing 16/7. He got to pad the resume. He’s in the hall.

All things considered he’s more highly regarded historically than his game justified.

RRR3

09-22-2024, 09:03 PM

And Zach Lavine put up 24+ a game on 48/39/85 on a playoff team. I could run you down a good list of hall of famers to never do that. Even if we throw out the 3 and ft percentages.

Nobody cares. And nobody should.

All just a byproduct of the game having a set number of players and teams needing 100+ points. People not necessarily on or near the same level will be similarly productive. Especially across eras.

A lot of people do 29/6/4 without being as good as Jordan was when he won an mvp with those numbers.

There have been “Meh” 24/10s and “He’s the best in the nba” 22/12”.

And we all know it. But when we need to prop up someone we act like it’s a given the numbers translate directly to greatness.

Everyone is guilty of it to some extent I just wish we could do it without the indignation and pretense that we don’t know it’s a very flawed system.

Plenty of Randle and Bosh types have not been as good as some want them to be considered due to numbers. Plenty have been much more effective than numbers suggest.

I feel like we are all far enough along in these discussions to stop having the same fallback numbers vs “But what he win tho?” arguments.

I didn’t **** with him before it was established he didn’t make that great a difference. And I have since watched a bunch of “He just….WINS” people selectively prop up some losers and shit on others and it just happens to always fall in line with who they need to make look good or bad because of some argument about someone else’s supporting cast.

I can’t get what feels like an honest consistent across the board evaluation out of anyone.

You like the guy like him. None of my concern. The takes all just seem to fall exactly in like with what one would expect from the source.

I can show you me choosing Rodman over Love when love was having a season that statistically had no precedent. But people will pull the same shit they do with Bosh now and act like everyone was sold on him at the time.

Fans have been disregarding the production of guys they aren’t that impressed by since the start of tracking stats. But personal ties and agendas make it more or less offensive for each of us case by case.

We have all responded to some generally impressive stat line with a “…..and?” but seem shocked and appalled every time we see someone do it to one we present as evidence.

If nothing else….we should stop acting like it’s the first time every time.

An awful lot of productive people just aren’t as impressive as their supporters want others to think.

Especially ones with “That nice….” stats instead of “Jesus Christ….” stats.

And in truth?

A few of the “Jesus Christ….” lines aren’t THAT amazing either basketball playing wise. Not many. But a few.

The Bosh type numbers have a long history of being attached to people we don’t look back on as special. There is a whole sack of 22ish and 9ish guys we don’t give two shits about.

He doesn’t have a “Thing”.

It’s probably time to stop being surprised he’s not that highly regarded in retrospect. He got the winners bump. It keeps him out of Randle and Aldridge territory for the most part. But that’s where he lives production wise and success wise.

He managed to escape that zone without the special part of his game that provides the hook for most borderline all nba types who last in our memories. He got to be an all star doing 16/7. He got to pad the resume. He’s in the hall.

All things considered he’s more highly regarded historically than his game justified.
Tpols and warriorfan don't believe any of the shit they're saying about Bosh supposedly being better than Pippen, they just see it as a way to make LeBron look worse, it's really bizarre behavior and insulting that they think we can't realize what they're doing.

SouBeachTalents

09-22-2024, 09:09 PM

Tpols and warriorfan don't believe any of the shit they're saying about Bosh supposedly being better than Pippen, they just see it as a way to make LeBron look worse, it's really bizarre behavior and insulting that they think we can't realize what they're doing.
I have seen warriorfan claim Bosh was better than Kobe in 2010, so he could believe it for all I know.

RRR3

09-22-2024, 09:11 PM

I have seen warriorfan claim Bosh was better than Kobe in 2010, so he could believe it for all I know.
WHAT????? Link?

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 09:13 PM

Only ever brought up pau not winning a playoff game when dudes would try to shit on Love and Bosh for the same thing.

Once again Im pretty sure i’ve seen you simp for guys who get shit on for not having team success

Just interesting you change your tune with bosh

just saying

So more “I do this all the time but it’s ok when I do” nonsense?

Every single thing I’ve said about them all existed before any of these agenda dipped takes everything you say is colored by.

I was on here when Kobe demanded a trade saying I’d rather the Bulls trade for Pau because we would just become the lakers east and lose with Kobe once we traded all our pieces for him. This is 2007. Memphis had won 22 games that year.

I’ve not liked winners and explained that losers weren’t at fault for it. Always case by case. I didn’t **** with Bosh winning rings or doing 15 a game in the playoffs getting destroyed in Toronto.

People aren’t necessarily their team results. But when the team results sync up with pre existing criticism?

Thats when it gets too easy.

I just wish I could find the topic when Jermaine O’Neal got to Toronto. It’s gotta be in my top 5 rightest moments.

Early in his career I was often on his side of comparisons because for some reason Knicks fans had a thing for comparing him to Michael Sweetney. And then somehow it ended up Bosh vs Josh Howard with a mavs fan friend of mine who used to post here. But somewhere around 06 or 07.

Been saying the same shit ever since and you types pop up with different reasons I must think it in retrospect.

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 09:20 PM

WHAT????? Link?

He had a run of lying about believing your per ranking decided your league ranking, but it went directly in conflict with a number of other things. Like Kobe being something like 11th that same year. Couldn’t come out and say that per obviously doesn’t determine ranking because he was posting the per ranking five or 10 times a week back then as if it did.

A tricky little hypocrisy to navigate, but he did his best.

SouBeachTalents

09-22-2024, 09:23 PM

WHAT????? Link?
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?413651-Curry-got-the-2nd-highest-per-to-play-with-him-LeBron-joined-the-2nd-AND-4th-highest&p=12505070#post12505070

RRR3

09-22-2024, 09:27 PM

He had a run of lying about believing your per ranking decided your league ranking, but it went directly in conflict with a number of other things. Like Kobe being something like 11th that same year. Couldn’t come out and say that per obviously doesn’t determine ranking because he was posting the per ranking five or 10 times a week back then as if it did.

A tricky little hypocrisy to navigate, but he did his best.
I'll admit I used to take PER seriously a while ago, but Hassan Whiteside, amongst just learning more about the game, definitely soured me on it. As with all Heat fans, I considered him at best a solid player, and in many years an active detriment, and we improved considerably when we started playing a pre-prime Bam Adebayo over him, despite Bam never getting particularly close to Whiteside's PER scores. PER would have you believe Whiteside is one of the best players of all time, and he's easily one of my least favorite Heat players ever, just the definition of empty stats. I can confidently say that's not the case for Bosh, but I certainly wouldn't say Bosh is better than Kobe either...

RRR3

09-22-2024, 09:28 PM

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?413651-Curry-got-the-2nd-highest-per-to-play-with-him-LeBron-joined-the-2nd-AND-4th-highest&p=12505070#post12505070
I forgot how badly 2016 broke him

ShawkFactory

09-22-2024, 10:21 PM

RRR3

09-22-2024, 10:26 PM

I’d imagine it was in response to Lebron fans using PER as gospel, since he dominated the number at the time. Understandable push-back at the time but still throwing it in 10-12 years later is odd.
I'm pretty sure he was arguing LeBron is "borderline top 10" the other day :lol

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 11:01 PM

I’d imagine it was in response to Lebron fans using PER as gospel, since he dominated the number at the time. Understandable push-back at the time but still throwing it in 10-12 years later is odd.

I didn’t **** with Bosh all the way back to the Bush administration. Random things I found from me as far back as 2006

https://i.ibb.co/mJjzXPk/IMG-0005.jpg

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 11:01 PM

https://i.ibb.co/st1Cwk3/IMG-0006.jpg

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 11:03 PM

https://i.ibb.co/mzcXcMv/IMG-0007.jpg

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 11:03 PM

https://i.ibb.co/xmrpvyK/IMG-0008.jpg

Kblaze8855

09-22-2024, 11:04 PM

https://i.ibb.co/jg9gXMF/IMG-0009.jpg

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 01:09 AM

https://i.ibb.co/jg9gXMF/IMG-0009.jpg

cool. your bball takes were just as shitty as they were almost two decades ago. congrats?

RRR3

09-23-2024, 01:16 AM

cool. your bball takes were just as shitty as they were almost two decades ago. congrats?
You were insisting LeBron James isn't top 10 the other day, I wouldn't talk about someone clearly more intelligent than you.

Phoenix

09-23-2024, 04:18 AM

Go to the Shaq vs Bron thread. haha, when people start talking about something interesting (tho that's not so interesting,) gotta stay with that. Just like Caitlin is THE TRUTH thread. The thing about 3ball is he is persistent. Gotta be as persistent. Gotta work for good bball discussion!!

-Smak

Yeah I've made a few posts in the Shaq/Lebron thread. How the posters here let 3balls topics go 9 pages with actual serious replies is one of life's great mysteries.

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 08:28 AM

You were insisting LeBron James isn't top 10 the other day, I wouldn't talk about someone clearly more intelligent than you.

Thing is I don’t care if he agrees with what I said. I just find it funny he spent years telling me I think what I think because of LeBron when time and time again I have proven I said the same thing before there was any connection. Just like I can show you me thinking Gasol was better when he won 22 games.

It’s just a product of never ending bad faith arguments. People don’t even have legitimate convictions. They just have well worn battle tested agenda based points they have leaned on thousands of times till they no longer have the ability to be genuine.

And such people can’t even get their heads around the fact that many opinions exist independent of the agendas they have spent decades pushing and fighting.

I pointed out to him once, that he’s one of the people I cannot get an unfiltered opinion on for a number of players because he is in never ending arguments about everybody associated with LeBron Kobe Steph, and Jordan, so nothing can be said that could be used against him later. He didn’t even disagree. Just laughed and said he was doing his best.

For the life of me, I can’t understand it.

3ball is obviously the worst of those types. I made a topic once about how do we Account for how much someone shoots when we list points per game and he comes in and tells me it’s some roundabout way to suggest LeBron is actually a better scorer than Jordan when it was just a rehash of a topic I made in 2003 about James Worthy versus Dominique Wilkins.

The entire sports World needs a reset. Clear all agendas. No “Oh but last time you said…”.

Just get people back to being themselves. Maybe we can stop hearing people lie about thinking Chris Bosh was better then finals MVP Kobe and hear legitimate opinions.

I actually do care what most of you people have to say. I wouldn’t ask if I didn’t give a shit. Just annoying to see how often what people have to say is exactly what one would expect they think based on who they hate.

Nobody…and I do mean nobody… Is dumb enough to think Chris Bosh who wasn’t even all nba third team was better than this Kobe

https://youtu.be/zx02W5pc7yQ?si=EgE6-MtGLfa4HKaH

but because he needs to make Bosh out to be as great as possible before joining the heat, he has to lie about thinking it. And being willing to be that dishonest about opinions, makes him think everyone else must be as well.

At that point, there’s almost no reason to even be talking to each other.

Even at its best sports talk isn’t exactly useful. But when it’s this colored by adherence to agendas, it is utterly ****ing pointless.

Phoenix

09-23-2024, 08:47 AM

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 09:02 AM

That last reporter question...

'Do you think he's the best player ever, even better than Jordan?'

Its interesting how off the rails the discourse has gone now, where 14 years later some people argue these were never serious talking points in the moment. What Kobe showed in that video was absolutely as lethal as anything MJ did in a given moment. Doesn't mean Kobe was overall better game to game, season to season but these topics weren't pulled out of thin air for shits and giggles.

It's like the people who act like Kobe vs Tmac in 2003 wasn't a legit argument because of the inability to separate hindsight from the there and then of the moment.
'

I made a topic in 2003 saying I didn’t understand why people feel the need to wait to acknowledge what’s right in front of them. I think the specific example I used was Kobe and Tmac that season versus bird in like 1984. I said in 20 years, it will be considered a perfectly valid question to ask 2003 Kobe/Tmac versus 1984 bird. so why isn’t it valid right now?

The general answer naturally involved not knowing the future. And in Tmacs example the future didn’t end up what we expected. But that still doesn’t make him any worse in 2003. It just makes us more unwilling to acknowledge it.

So maybe Tmac hurt my argument….but it shouldn’t.

02 and 03 Tmac was a perfectly normal pick for top 3 in a league with Duncan, KG, Shaq, and Kobe all in or near prime form. But getting hurt later and falling off, makes him a name people are uncomfortable acknowledging is in the same all-time company they were. Even only as basketball players and not career wise.

tpols

09-23-2024, 09:44 AM

And Zach Lavine put up 24+ a game on 48/39/85 on a playoff team. I could run you down a good list of hall of famers to never do that. Even if we throw out the 3 and ft percentages.

Nobody cares. And nobody should.

Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.

That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.

I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you feeel... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.

Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 09:49 AM

tpols

09-23-2024, 10:04 AM

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 10:11 AM

Nobody said Bosh was a defensive force, but again he had way better defensive metrics than a Zach Lavine or Bradley Beal type. Like... way better. This is documented fact. His splits were always in the big time positive. There are a lot of go to scorers who gave up just as much as they produced. Bosh simply wasn't one of them.

Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.

Using defense as some sort of decisive factor when arguing for Toronto Bosh is retarded.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:17 AM

Thing is I don’t care if he agrees with what I said. I just find it funny he spent years telling me I think what I think because of LeBron when time and time again I have proven I said the same thing before there was any connection. Just like I can show you me thinking Gasol was better when he won 22 games.

It’s just a product of never ending bad faith arguments. People don’t even have legitimate convictions. They just have well worn battle tested agenda based points they have leaned on thousands of times till they no longer have the ability to be genuine.

And such people can’t even get their heads around the fact that many opinions exist independent of the agendas they have spent decades pushing and fighting.

I pointed out to him once, that he’s one of the people I cannot get an unfiltered opinion on for a number of players because he is in never ending arguments about everybody associated with LeBron Kobe Steph, and Jordan, so nothing can be said that could be used against him later. He didn’t even disagree. Just laughed and said he was doing his best.

For the life of me, I can’t understand it.

3ball is obviously the worst of those types. I made a topic once about how do we Account for how much someone shoots when we list points per game and he comes in and tells me it’s some roundabout way to suggest LeBron is actually a better scorer than Jordan when it was just a rehash of a topic I made in 2003 about James Worthy versus Dominique Wilkins.

The entire sports World needs a reset. Clear all agendas. No “Oh but last time you said…”.

Just get people back to being themselves. Maybe we can stop hearing people lie about thinking Chris Bosh was better then finals MVP Kobe and hear legitimate opinions.

I actually do care what most of you people have to say. I wouldn’t ask if I didn’t give a shit. Just annoying to see how often what people have to say is exactly what one would expect they think based on who they hate.

Nobody…and I do mean nobody… Is dumb enough to think Chris Bosh who wasn’t even all nba third team was better than this Kobe

https://youtu.be/zx02W5pc7yQ?si=EgE6-MtGLfa4HKaH

but because he needs to make Bosh out to be as great as possible before joining the heat, he has to lie about thinking it. And being willing to be that dishonest about opinions, makes him think everyone else must be as well.

At that point, there’s almost no reason to even be talking to each other.

Even at its best sports talk isn’t exactly useful. But when it’s this colored by adherence to agendas, it is utterly ****ing pointless.

That’s a whole lotta words to dance around the fact that your criticisms with bosh aren’t consistent with other dudes you talk about.

You can say I have the agenda when you are obviously projecting.

Didn’t you call Bosh Antonio McDyess a few posts ago? You are gonna try to clutch your pearls and act like 3ball and I are trolls and come with this nonsense? Stop being a f.aggot.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:18 AM

Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.

Using defense as some sort of decisive factor when arguing for Toronto Bosh is retarded.

DBPM is the worst stat. Creator of the stat even admits it. Google it, it’s in writing on basketball reference.

SouBeachTalents

09-23-2024, 10:20 AM

Bosh is honestly MUCH closer to McDyess than he is to 2010 Kobe :lol

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 10:28 AM

DBPM is the worst stat. Creator of the stat even admits it. Google it, it’s in writing on basketball reference.

All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:32 AM

All defensive advanced stats have flaws, tpols was the one who brought up advanced defensive metrics for Bosh's case. Toronto Bosh and defense do not go hand in hand.

That’s fair I’m just giving you a heads up that it is a shitty stat.

Box Plus/Minus is a very good offensive metric, but it struggles some with defense. As mentioned before, when all you have is a box score, you cannot estimate defense very well. Not including minutes per game in the regression also hampers the accuracy of the defensive estimates. In other words--take DBPM with a spoonful of salt.

source: https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/bpm2.html

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 10:34 AM

That’s a whole lotta words to dance around the fact that your criticisms with bosh aren’t consistent with other dudes you talk about.

You can say I have the agenda when you are obviously projecting.

Didn’t you call Bosh Antonio McDyess a few posts ago? You are gonna try to clutch your pearls and act like 3ball and I are trolls and come with this nonsense? Stop being a f.aggot.

Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.

Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.

We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.

tpols

09-23-2024, 10:37 AM

Bosh's defensive box plus/minus was in the negative throughout his 7 years in Toronto and the Raptors had the worst defense in the NBA in 2010 with Bosh.

See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.

Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.

I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.

Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:40 AM

Nothing to project about. It’s the same thing I’ve been consistently saying about the exact same players for 18 years. You could pull my text on Bosh word for word from 15 to 18 years ago and slide them in with shit I said last year and not tell them apart. I don’t need to bullshit anybody. I don’t need to come with a bunch of takes I don’t actually believe.

Bosh did absolutely nothing on a basketball court to the distinguish himself as some other level from any of the people I mentioned. Dice could shoot. He was more athletic than Bosch. He was a tougher player inside and a better rebounder. He was a better defender than Boswell’s in Toronto. I would say Bosh developed more consistent range and was a better triple threat player, but I’ll tell you exactly what I said 18 years ago. There isn’t enough of a difference between what Chris Bosh does and those other players do to bother making a different level.

We don’t need 37 levels. If your team has prime dice, and you trade him for prime Bosh, you haven’t filled any kind of hole. You haven’t stepped up the significance of your franchise. You’re gonna stay whatever you already were. Might as well be trading Boozer for Zach Randolph. You can have a preference, but whatever difference there is between the two doesn’t matter.

comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful

i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah

now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto

you are full of shit

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 10:45 AM

See this is where you need to pay attention to the debate and not hop in without reading like a fool. Reading is fundamental.

Kblaze was listing guys like Lavine or Beal types who put up huge statlines on great efficiency as a comparison to Chris Bosh. Chris Bosh's defense however was way better than theirs. He was in the big time positive when it came to his ORTG and DRTG splits differential. Just because Bosh wasn't KG or Duncan doesn't mean he was a bad defender. It's a spectrum. Kind of like what's going on with your brain.

I understand people dismissing players who put up big stat lines but then have terrible defensive metrics where it's statistically proven they were giving up more than they produced. The metrics don't paint that picture for Chris Bosh. They don't paint it for Pau. And they don't paint it for Pippen. These were all great players. One is simply ranked way higher because he played with the GOAT on great teams while the other two for more than half their primes didn't.

Were trying to educate you on the impact of the winning spotlight effect.

I actually watched Toronto Bosh while you were still in middle school, nothing about his defense stood out. He was a poor post defender mainly because he was pretty skinny, and most of the time the effort simply wasn't there mainly because he was the offense of Toronto. He gave you some rim protection because of his length, but he was always known as the skinny guy who didn't like to defend the post.

I remember Shaq calling Bosh soft after a game in 2009 I believe after he dropped 45 on him.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/news/2009/3/2/18595443/shaquille-o-neal-calls-chris-bosh-the-rupaul-of-big-men

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 10:49 AM

Zach lavine did have a better offensive season than Pippen ever did when he averaged 27/5/5 on elite efficiency. The problem is dude doesn't play defense. His splits for ORTG and DRTG are literally neutral and even negative at times... meaning he gives up just as many buckets as he makes.

That simply wasn't the case with Chris Bosh. His offensive efficiency and production was similar to Lavine, but his defensive metrics were waaay better. Bosh has big time positive splits.

I know you don't care about real measurable metrics and data, and rely rather on how you feeel... but those are just the facts. Bosh produced far more buckets than he gave up. And his prime splits and production are similar to Pippen if not better. Of course he played most of his prime with bums while Scottie played with Michael ****ing Jordan. And there-in lies the reason one is considered way better ranked despite not really being all that much better @ all. The winning spotlight.

Pau was just as good as Pippen as well but spent a huge chunk of his prime with mediocre at best help. If he played with Kobe for over a decade and won 5 rings with him he'd see a massive bump in his GOAT ranking.

I don’t feel a need for another 300 obvious example argument about why numbers don’t necessarily make two players equal even in the same league…. And definitely don’t across eras. Is the kind of thing everyone knows what has to selectively ignore to make points. I’ll just say I’ve been reading a lot of really old raptors discussions today. It’s funny how much worse they apparently got in retrospect when people need to act like Bosh was carrying garbage.

I found several arguments with me trying to explain why I didn’t think Jose Calderon should be an All Star while the efficiency whores on here we’re talking about me using the eye test and what I “feel” just like you.

Giving me metrics and numbers comparing his shooting to people like Jason Kidd. And as usual, my response was exactly exactly what it would be today.

And this means what to me?

Jose calderon has become oof those "Look at the numbers!" players who gets a following beyond his talents ability to justify. He has a good combo of the things it takes to get such a following.

He started as a no name so people who like him can claim they knew he was great from the jump. Hes got a high assist/turnover ratio. He shoots well from the field.

All good things. But they dont make anyone dominant. Got people talking about his production as legendary. As if 50/40/90 makes him better than a guy like Isiah Thomas or something. Its just a string of stats put together because they look nice. There are hall of famers who never shot near 50%. There have been points better than Calderon who didnt shoot 40% at the time. If you shoot 50/40/90 and 200 people who didnt do it were better than you...what does it even matter? Gilbert Arenas is the only 200 threes 700 free throws player ever. That really factor into anyones rankings? Its just trivia. A question for Canadian Jeopardy.

apparently, I just hated all of Canada because I didn’t think the Raptors had multiple All-Stars.

And that wasn’t even Jose best season. He did 13/9 on 50/41/98 the season after that.

And considering defense, he wasn’t even the second best player on the team at the time. You should’ve seen the old Raptors versus Knicks and Celtics fan arguments. Net fans were around there a bit as well.

Between Calderon and TJ Ford before him? A lot of people weren’t sure who was making those teams play well when they did. There was a whole TJ Ford contingent on my ass telling me he was leading the Raptors to the playoffs because of the lingering Kirk Hinrich TJ Ford debate from their rookie season.

always funny to me the way shit changes in retrospect.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:50 AM

Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?

Dope logic.

tpols

09-23-2024, 10:50 AM

Again... nobody said Bosh was KG or Tim Duncan. Yes his post defense wasn't great especially against guys who had 100 lbs on him... doesn't take PHD in physics to figure that out... but his versatility and agility and footspeed guarding the perimeter as an almost 7 footer was elite. And his defensive metrics were way better than all of the stars we've seen who drop 25 and give up 30 on the other end like... Lavine or Beal. That's the point. He was in the positive and they weren't. So that comparison had to get shut down.

tpols

09-23-2024, 10:51 AM

Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?

Dope logic.

:roll:

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 10:55 AM

Bosh couldn’t defend shaq well so therefore he was a bad defender?

Dope logic.

Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.

RRR3

09-23-2024, 10:56 AM

Shaq was like 37 when he dropped 45 on Toronto. It was the most points he scored that entire season.
He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 10:58 AM

He’s gonna call you short and a slur soon if you keep bullying him.

Go away. The adults are speaking.

Carbine

09-23-2024, 10:58 AM

Jose Calderon was actually pretty nice for a few years in Toronto. Offensively he was quite good actually for a pass first PG. Ultra efficient for the era. I watched a lot of these games live, I'm from Canada and we get all Toronto games on local tv.

Bosh was not a good defender back then either. You know why he became an excellent defender with Miami? Because he wasn't relied upon as the #1 or #2 option and he was in a much different defensive culture. It's the same reason Paul Peirce's defense improved when KG and Thibs came over. The defensive antennas go up and effort goes up when everyone is being held accountable.

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 10:59 AM

comparing him to mcdyess is disrespectful

i’ve seen you simp for guys who never won a ring and how it’s so unfair they get criticism for things they can’t control, and that is why lebron made a super team, it’s ring counting fans, blah blah blah

now you come around and shit on bosh for not setting the world on fire with jose calderon in toronto

you are full of shit

he was getting compared to people like Caron Butler and Carlos boozer at the time. Boozer was all NBA over Chris Bosh. In what World is someone ranked behind Carlos boozer unreasonable to compare to Antonio? Do you remember him before his knee injury?

I was doing exactly what you’re talking about when you say I defended people on bad teams when I had Paul Gasol over Chris Bosh. His team won 22 games and I had him firmly ahead of Bosh. You just keep saying the same shit over when the reason I was unimpressed was laid out before he was even established as a loser. I said the same thing about Bosh winning and losing. Feels like you should be able to grasp what that means. Just wasn’t impressed by his game. I’ve been unimpressed by winners and impressed by losers. In this case, there is absolutely no question. I was unimpressed by him both ways so you really have no argument.

Some players being great when they lose, doesn’t mean all people who lose are. And some people being able to win while not doing very much doesn’t mean all winners backed into it. Steph Curry or Wilt Chamberlain missing the playoffs On a bad team is not the same as Jerry Stackhouse missing the playoffs on a bad team just because they all scored 30 a game doing it. It’s always case by case and that is too obvious for me to believe you don’t know it.

though the more you stick to your guns on some of these issues the more I’m worried I could be giving you too much credit.

RRR3

09-23-2024, 11:03 AM

Regarding the TMac Bird thing Kblaze it’s because TMac never won so now people pretend he wasn’t great.

RRR3

09-23-2024, 11:05 AM

Go away. The adults are speaking.
Yeah idk if you realize this but it’s not adult behavior to spend days arguing something you don’t believe (Chris Bosh being some godly player) just to keep up your agenda (LeBron isn’t that good actually!!!!).

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 11:07 AM

he was getting compared to people like Caron Butler and Carlos boozer at the time. Boozer was all NBA over Chris Bosh. In what World is someone ranked behind Carlos boozer unreasonable to compare to Antonio? Do you remember him before his knee injury?

I was doing exactly what you’re talking about when you say I defended people on bad teams when I had Paul Gasol over Chris Bosh. His team won 22 games and I had him firmly ahead of Bosh. You just keep saying the same shit over when the reason I was unimpressed was laid out before he was even established as a loser. I said the same thing about Bosh winning and losing. Feels like you should be able to grasp what that means. Just wasn’t impressed by his game. I’ve been unimpressed by winners and impressed by losers. In this case, there is absolutely no question. I was unimpressed by him both ways so you really have no argument.

Some players being great when they lose, doesn’t mean all people who lose are. And some people being able to win while not doing very much doesn’t mean all winners backed into it. It’s always case by case and that is too obvious for me to believe you don’t know it.

though the more you stick to your guns on some of these issues the more I’m worried I could be giving you too much credit.

Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.

Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.

Jose Calderon was actually pretty nice for a few years in Toronto. Offensively he was quite good actually for a pass first PG. Ultra efficient for the era. I watched a lot of these games live, I'm from Canada and we get all Toronto games on local tv.

Bosh was not a good defender back then either. You know why he became an excellent defender with Miami? Because he wasn't relied upon as the #1 or #2 option and he was in a much different defensive culture. It's the same reason Paul Peirce's defense improved when KG and Thibs came over. The defensive antennas go up and effort goes up when everyone is being held accountable.

Is this dude really trying to low key hype Jose Calderon.

:roll:

Ok man, you sold us, Bosh did not have “not enough help” in toronto. He was good. Him and Jose. Bosh just was an empty stat loser with no D.

Sounds legit.

1987_Lakers

09-23-2024, 11:12 AM

As a playmaker and shooter. Calderon was one of the best. He doesn’t get talked about enough for his shooting ability.

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 11:15 AM

Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.

Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.

There is absolutely no reason to put much separation between those three players. Like I said, if you want to make the top 50 contain 30 different levels OK. But it’s like making a level between Toronto Vince Carter and Bucks Ray Allen. You can like one or the other but there are no ****ing levels.

Let’s argue David West and Paul Millsap while we’re at it.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 11:19 AM

There is absolutely no reason to put much separation between those three players. Like I said, if you want to make the top 50 contain 30 different levels OK. But it’s like making a level between Toronto Vince Carter and Bucks Ray Allen. You can like one or the other but there are no ****ing levels.

Let’s argue David West and Paul Millsap while we’re at it.
no, he wasn’t. Make dice would’ve been the best defender of the three. Boozer was actually great back then. Comparing Bosh to Boozer during the last few years in Utah is fine.

Boozer during that stretch was considerably better than Mcdyess. Drop the Mcdyess shit.

Lebron is the same as t mac who’s the same as penny who’s the same as bradly beal who’s the same as jason terry who’s the same as jose calderon who’s the same as bronny james

So basically Lebron and Bronny James are the same player.

Yeah no, get out of here with this logic. It’s straight garbage.

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 11:23 AM

Lebron is the same as t mac who’s the same as penny who’s the same as bradly beal who’s the same as jason terry who’s the same as jose calderon who’s the same as bronny james

So basically Lebron and Bronny James are the same player.

Yeah no, get out of here with this logic. It’s straight garbage.

So my “Logic”(similar players with similar production are on a similar level) suggests Lebron is a 10th man due to transitive property.

You’ve clearly entered an unhinged era and I’m gonna go ahead and disregard you for a while until you come back to earth and I can talk to you like a normal human being.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 11:26 AM

So my “Logic”(similar players with similar production are on a similar level) suggests Lebron is a 10th man due to transitive property.

You’ve clearly entered an unhinged era and I’m gonna go ahead and disregard you for a while until you come back to earth and I can talk to you like a normal human being.

you are the one busting out the transitive properties trying to make vague ass connections with players who are obviously worse

I just took it another step to highlight how absurd the practice is

you can keep telling yourself mcdyess was “just as good” as prime chris bosh but idk, you are kinda operating in your own reality with that one

ShawkFactory

09-23-2024, 11:32 AM

Is this dude really trying to low key hype Jose Calderon.

:roll:

Ok man, you sold us, Bosh did not have “not enough help” in toronto. He was good. Him and Jose. Bosh just was an empty stat loser with no D.

Sounds legit.

Why does reasonably, and agendalessly, stating Calderon's strengths as a player in a natural response to something where he was already brought up rile you up so much?

Nobody said anything about Bosh having any sort of level of help or not help. That wasn't the discussion.

You've been doing this so long it truly doesn't seem like your mind lets you go into certain things without the layers of agenda clouding it.

warriorfan

09-23-2024, 11:40 AM

Why does reasonably, and agendalessly, stating Calderon's strengths as a player in a natural response to something where he was already brought up rile you up so much?

Nobody said anything about Bosh having any sort of level of help or not help. That wasn't the discussion.

You've been doing this so long it truly doesn't seem like your mind lets you go into certain things without the layers of agenda clouding it.

I was insinuating Bosh didn’t have help in Toronto when mentioning Jose. This was pretty obvious.

When someone replies back about how Jose Calderon actually wasn’t that bad/underrated/whatever the ****, they are insinuating that he actually had more help than people think.

We all know Jose Calderon isn’t a needle mover, I don’t think anyone asked for a detailed Jose Calderon breakdown in this thread or particularly care, Jose was just an example of Bosh having shitty teams in Toronto. (I think all sane people can agree on that)

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 11:48 AM

Why does reasonably, and agendalessly, stating Calderon's strengths as a player in a natural response to something where he was already brought up rile you up so much?

Nobody said anything about Bosh having any sort of level of help or not help. That wasn't the discussion.

You've been doing this so long it truly doesn't seem like your mind lets you go into certain things without the layers of agenda clouding it.

Jose riles people up. This was among the responses to the “Jose isn’t an all star” posts from 2007

Wow go die. I dont understand what was running through your brain for you to post this? Tell me you haven't graduated elementary school or that you're a big time drug addict to justify this completely horse **** post, pelase. Cmon get to it.

in response to someone pointing out that not everybody who is a better shooter than Jason Kidd is an All Star.

That man had a following.

My combination of thinking he wasn’t an All Star(just really good) and Bosh was a middling All-Star had Canadians at my ****ing neck.

ShawkFactory

09-23-2024, 11:54 AM

I was insinuating Bosh didn’t have help in Toronto when mentioning Jose. This was pretty obvious.

When someone replies back about how Jose Calderon actually wasn’t that bad/underrated/whatever the ****, they are insinuating that he actually had more help than people think.

We all know Jose Calderon isn’t a needle mover, I don’t think anyone asked for a detailed Jose Calderon breakdown in this thread or particularly care, Jose was just an example of Bosh having shitty teams in Toronto. (I think all sane people can agree on that)

He was a really good shooter and a really good play-making point guard. These things both being true doesn't make Chris Bosh worse or the team as a whole better than they actually were.

Kblaze8855

09-23-2024, 11:55 AM

All stemmed from Gilbert Arenas on his blog(he’s been at it a while):

On the East side, I don’t know if there were any big snubs. I mean, some people wanted Jose Calderon. Jose Calderon? Who? Come on man, this is All-Star, people. When I’ve seen some of the names that are being thrown around on the ticker as snubs, it’s killing me. I understand Calderon has the best assist-turnover ratio in the league, but you know what’s funny? All back-up point guards have the best assist-turnover ratios. Screw it, Kevin Ollie should be an All-Star then! For like five or six years, Ollie was No. 1 in assist-turnover ratio!
I’ve been loving the way he’s been playing for the last two years. When he first came into the league he was a little timid and scared to shoot the ball, but he’s taking over that team. But All-Star? He’s about 20 years away from being an All-Star.

he had fans and the whole sports media outraged at his disrespect of the efficiency. This is one of the more levelheaded responses

Whether or not Calderon should or should not be an All-Star remains up for discussion. But assessing the guy the way Arenas did shouldn't be part of that discussion.
This 'back-up' has started 35 of the 49 games in which he has played, and he averages 31.7 minutes per game. That assist-to-turnover ratio of 5.56-to-1 comes from the fact that he averages 8.9 assists and 1.6 turnovers per game. Nobody else in basketball has a ratio so high as 4.5-to-1. The 8.9 assists per game put him in fifth in the league, behind only Steve Nash, Chris Paul, Jason Kidd and Deron Williams, three of whom play out West.
In case that wasn't enough, Calderon's efficiency shooting the basketball is similar to his efficiency passing it, as he shoots 53.3 percent from the field, 46.1 percent from deep and 92.1 percent from the foul line. With Calderon starting, the Raps are 20-15. When that isn't the case, they are just 7-7.
Maybe he isn't an All-Star, but Jose Calderon ismost certainly an impact player.

I’m going to hunt down some TJ Ford talks as well. Looking at his numbers you wouldn’t believe the shit Raptor fans were telling me. They legit thought I hated TJ because I thought Kirk Hinrich was better as a rookie. I don’t know which one of them I heard the most about in that era but people thought I was if anything underrating the other Raptors.

The raptors had a big fanbase at the time.

RRR3

09-23-2024, 03:44 PM

I think it’s hilarious this dude is having a meltdown over McDyess being compared to Bosh but expects us to believe it’s reasonable to say Bosh>Pippen.

ILLsmak

09-23-2024, 03:54 PM

Jose riles people up. This was among the responses to the “Jose isn’t an all star” posts from 2007

in response to someone pointing out that not everybody who is a better shooter than Jason Kidd is an All Star.

That man had a following.

My combination of thinking he wasn’t an All Star(just really good) and Bosh was a middling All-Star had Canadians at my ****ing neck.

He was a good pg. Solid.

-Smak

dankok8

09-24-2024, 12:06 AM

It's no shame being compared to McDyess. He was a baller prior to his injury. That said, I'd say peak Bosh was a bit better because he was more consistent.

3ba11

09-24-2024, 12:04 PM

I think it’s hilarious this dude is having a meltdown over McDyess being compared to Bosh but expects us to believe it’s reasonable to say Bosh>Pippen.

The pre-injury McDyess is a great example - that's Pippen's caliber and actually McDyess was a better talent but simply didn't have the winning spotlight of playing with Jordan, or the perfect no-pressure role in a system with good coaching - McDyess was All-NBA without the winning spotlight of titles and perfect situation for development that Pippen needed.

Jordan + any McDyess/Pippen/Nance-level talent or even less will win every year in a 2-star vs 2-star format, and they will still find rings in the 80's super-team era too... MJ/Pippen probably win 2-3 rings in the 80's against those super-teams, and obviously Jordan wins every year in a 2-star vs 2-star format (parity)..

Basically, if you give MJ a similar cast to everyone else, he wins every year, and he still wins a few in eras where his lone all-star teammate is outmatched by 3 or 4 from the opponent.