Quick question about the espn top 100 athletes ever list from 2000…..

[Kblaze8855]

Have you ever heard of number ten?


https://www.hostpic.org/images/2409240619230354.jpeg



Is this the first time you have ever heard of that person?

[highwhey]

LeBron should be #1. This is why ESPN is going under.

[SouBeachTalents]

Without looking it up, I think that was a female track and field star from like the early 1900s :lol

[SouBeachTalents]

I have genuinely never heard of Wilma Rudolph, Eric Heiden or Edwin Moses though.

[post]

i remember seeing the list probably when it came out

wikipedia says she "excelled in golf, basketball, baseball, and track and field."

[Full Court]

Absolutely.

And she definitely deserves a spot in the top 100.

[John8204]

She's actually Babe Dicrikson-Zaharas and yes I think she was actually taught in history class.

[DJMcDonald]

She's actually Babe Dicrikson-Zaharas and yes I think she was actually taught in history class.

This. I learned about her in school.

[Xiao Yao You]

I have genuinely never heard of Wilma Rudolph, Eric Heiden or Edwin Moses though.

:coleman:

[Hey Yo]

I have genuinely never heard of Wilma Rudolph, Eric Heiden or Edwin Moses though.

Heiden was a master at (speed) ice skating and believe Moses was a track star. Definitely heard of Rudolph but can't guess the sport.

[Hey Yo]

The name I noticed was Bill Tilden.... pretty sure I've never heard of him.

[ShawkFactory]

Jackie Robinson being above Ted Williams is a little interesting. I suppose I get it from a big-picture standpoint but definitely not from an excellence in the sport one.

[rmt]

Where's Pele? World wide baseball is not so popular - too many baseball players on list. Ali should be higher than Babe Ruth. Martina as the highest tennis player followed by Sampras? No Federer (popularity)/Djokovic (GOAT)? Jesse Owens/Carl Lewis - I'd put Usain Bolt ahead - triple/triple. Bird/Dr J?

[John8204]

Jackie Robinson being above is a little interesting. I suppose I get it from a big-picture standpoint but definitely not from an excellence in the sport one.

I don't know if I would have even had Ted on the list Pete Rose and Cy Young seem like players that should have ranked ahead of him.

[ShawkFactory]

Where's Pele? World wide baseball is not so popular - too many baseball players on list. Ali should be higher than Babe Ruth. Martina as the highest tennis player followed by Sampras? No Federer (popularity)/Djokovic (GOAT)? Jesse Owens/Carl Lewis - I'd put Usain Bolt ahead - triple/triple. Bird/Dr J?

It's from 2000.

[Xiao Yao You]

I don't know if I would have even had Ted on the list Pete Rose and Cy Young seem like players that should have ranked ahead of him.

Rose wasnt better than ted

[SouBeachTalents]

Where's Pele? World wide baseball is not so popular - too many baseball players on list. Ali should be higher than Babe Ruth. Martina as the highest tennis player followed by Sampras? No Federer (popularity)/Djokovic (GOAT)? Jesse Owens/Carl Lewis - I'd put Usain Bolt ahead - triple/triple. Bird/Dr J?
Crazy Djokovic didn't make the list at 13.

[Full Court]

Babe Didrikson was essentially the female Jim Thorpe. Both are taught in most history classes.

Maybe I'm biased against golf as an athletic endeavor...but Jack Nicklaus in the top 10???????

[ShawkFactory]

I don't know if I would have even had Ted on the list Pete Rose and Cy Young seem like players that should have ranked ahead of him.

Dude...what? :lol

[Hey Yo]

Rose wasnt better than ted

He wasn't.... but you'd be hard pressed to find a player who had/showed more passion for the game than Pete. He was the ultra competitor on the diamond and didn't care if you didn't like him showing his emotions.

[ShawkFactory]

He wasn't.... but you'd be hard pressed to find a player who had/showed more passion for the game than Pete. He was the ultra competitor on the diamond and didn't care if you didn't like him showing his emotions.

I mean sure but Ted Williams is one of the 2-3 best hitters/players that have ever done it. That is a trump card here..

[Hey Yo]

I mean sure but Ted Williams is one of the 2-3 best hitters/players that have ever done it. That is a trump card here..

I could have worded it better but me saying "he wasn't " was implying that Pete wasn't better.

[ralph_i_el]

LeBron should be #1. This is why ESPN is going under.

Sophmore in high school LeBron:lol

[ralph_i_el]

Jackie Robinson being above Ted Williams is a little interesting. I suppose I get it from a big-picture standpoint but definitely not from an excellence in the sport one.

What's crazy is that he probably wasn't top-3 black field players of that era.

[post]

Where's Pele? World wide baseball is not so popular - too many baseball players on list. Ali should be higher than Babe Ruth. Martina as the highest tennis player followed by Sampras? No Federer (popularity)/Djokovic (GOAT)? Jesse Owens/Carl Lewis - I'd put Usain Bolt ahead - triple/triple. Bird/Dr J?

no pele presumably because it's a north american list

https://www.espn.com/sportscentury/athletes.html

this is for the 21st century

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/40446224/top-100-athletes-21st-century

[ShawkFactory]

What's crazy is that he probably wasn't top-3 black field players of that era.

Purely as a player? No probably not.

[RRR3]

What's crazy is that he probably wasn't top-3 black field players of that era.
Why do people keep repeating this? Jackie Robinson led the league in position player bWAR in 1949, 1950 and 1952. And was second in 1951. Peak wise you could argue he's the best second baseman ever. There were very few players better relative to the league they played in than him at their peak.

[RRR3]

Purely as a player? No probably not.
Peak wise, what position player was better during his prime? Willie Mays started peaking once he was old. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on the Negro Leagues, but from what I know I'd only say Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige were clearly better from around that time. Guys like Bill Foster, Oscar Charleston and Turkey Stearnes were earlier.

Willie Wells, Mule Suttles, Hilton Smith, Leon Day and Martin Dihigo would be others but you can definitely argue Jackie over them. These are the guys I've generally seen mentioned as the best but I'm sure there's more you can mention if you're aware of them let me know.

[Charlie Sheen]

Peak wise, what position player was better during his prime? Willie Mays started peaking once he was old. Admittedly, I'm not an expert on the Negro Leagues, but from what I know I'd only say Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige were clearly better from around that time. Guys like Bill Foster, Oscar Charleston and Turkey Stearnes were earlier.

Willie Wells, Mule Suttles, Hilton Smith, Leon Day and Martin Dihigo would be others but you can definitely argue Jackie over them. These are the guys I've generally seen mentioned as the best but I'm sure there's more you can mention if you're aware of them let me know.

There was no other Dodger I remember Vin Scully speak of with such reverence as a player than Roy Campanella. He talked about him like he was the greatest Dodger he ever saw.

[RRR3]

There was no other Dodger I remember Vin Scully speak of with such reverence as a player than Roy Campanella. He talked about him like he was the greatest Dodger he ever saw.
WAR is weird for catchers for some reason, it's hard to compare them to other positions. Jackie beats him in WAR career, peak or prime wise, but like I said, catcher WAR tends to be lower, so it's probably much more debatable than WAR indicates. Few catchers ever have really been able to rack up WAR the way other positions elite do, Josh Gibson was an outlier. I would say Josh Gibson historically speaking is probably the best position player ever relative to competition, although Ruth being a great pitcher would give him an overall edge as a total player.

[Charlie Sheen]

WAR is weird for catchers for some reason, it's hard to compare them to other positions. Jackie beats him in WAR career, peak or prime wise, but like I said, catcher WAR tends to be lower, so it's probably much more debatable than WAR indicates. Few catchers ever have really been able to rack up WAR the way other positions elite do, Josh Gibson was an outlier. I would say Josh Gibson historically speaking is probably the best position player ever relative to competition, although Ruth being a great pitcher would give him an overall edge as a total player.

My opinion of players I never saw are most heavily influenced by what the people from that era have to say. Not an apples to apples comparison but it is like the way people who never saw Pistol Pete or Allen Iverson rate them as bums while the people who were watching them play land on the opposite end of the spectrum.

When it comes to Baseball and specifically the Dodgers there is no opinion I trust more than vin.

[RRR3]

My opinion of players I never saw are most heavily influenced by what the people from that era have to say. Not an apples to apples comparison but it is like the way people who never saw Pistol Pete or Allen Iverson rate them as bums while the people who were watching them play land on the opposite end of the spectrum.

When it comes to Baseball and specifically the Dodgers there is no opinion I trust more than vin.
That's fine, personally I will always prefer stats because it's hard to separate emotions out of the equation when debating players you personally like. For instance, if there's a player Jim Edmonds or Albert Pujols are debatable with I'm always going to give the edge to them :lol And the cool thing about analytics is we've been able to realize some players were far better than they were deemed to be when they were playing, such as Bert Blyleven. One of the best pitchers ever, but he was generally just considered very good when he was pitching.

[John8204]

I mean sure but Ted Williams is one of the 2-3 best hitters/players that have ever done it. That is a trump card here..

He's a top ten hitter...but I mean theirs a reason he only got two MVP's.

[ralph_i_el]

Why do people keep repeating this? Jackie Robinson led the league in position player bWAR in 1949, 1950 and 1952. And was second in 1951. Peak wise you could argue he's the best second baseman ever. There were very few players better relative to the league they played in than him at their peak.

If he was a better player, he wouldn't have played 2nd base :confusedshrug:

Upon pondering, I guess he was the 3rd best ex-negro league field player in the MLB behind Mays and Campanella

[Charlie Sheen]

That's fine, personally I will always prefer stats because it's hard to separate emotions out of the equation when debating players you personally like. For instance, if there's a player Jim Edmonds or Albert Pujols are debatable with I'm always going to give the edge to them :lol And the cool thing about analytics is we've been able to realize some players were far better than they were deemed to be when they were playing, such as Bert Blyleven. One of the best pitchers ever, but he was generally just considered very good when he was pitching.

Blyleven belongs in the Hall but he is not one of the best pitchers ever. His name does not belong with Maddux, Pedro, Unit, Rocket, Kershaw, Ryan, Seaver, Carlton... His case is an example of how emotion plays a significant role in analytics. He is not and never was Nolan Ryan but some would like you to believe that he was the better player 10 years after they retired. When his support swelled the sabermetric crowd was honking hardest for him because they had their own agenda. The emotional attachment for or against a particular metric is just as strong as the one to a player.

I would listen to your opinion on Jim Edmonds defense well before I would care about how someone groomed the data to represent his defensive value in another 10 years.

[Kblaze8855]

If he was a better player, he wouldn't have played 2nd base :confusedshrug:

Upon pondering, I guess he was the 3rd best ex-negro league field player in the MLB behind Mays and Campanella


he joined a team with a Hall of Fame shortstop after he played shortstop in the Negro leagues. I strongly suspect he wasn’t just incapable of playing there in the majors.

[ShawkFactory]

He's a top ten hitter...but I mean theirs a reason he only got two MVP's.

See this is where the hater comes out and the rest of the conversation become pointless (even though I'll still indulge because I can't help myself). Willie Mays had 2 MVPs. Hank Aaron had 1. Pete Rose had...1.

None of those guys missed 3 of their absolute peak years to the military either.

You can't name 3 better hitters and be serious about it. Really the only ones that are even arguable are Ruth, Bonds, and Ty Cobb. And Bonds is VERY iffy given that he wasn't there before the steroids.

[Xiao Yao You]

See this is where the hater comes out and the rest of the conversation become pointless (even though I'll still indulge because I can't help myself). Willie Mays had 2 MVPs. Hank Aaron had 1. Pete Rose had...1.

None of those guys missed 3 of their absolute peak years to the military either.

You can't name 3 better hitters and be serious about it. Really the only ones that are even arguable are Ruth, Bonds, and Ty Cobb. And Bonds is VERY iffy given that he wasn't there before the steroids.

Could certainly argue others but rose isnt one of them.

[ShawkFactory]

Blyleven belongs in the Hall but he is not one of the best pitchers ever. His name does not belong with Maddux, Pedro, Unit, Rocket, Kershaw, Ryan, Seaver, Carlton... His case is an example of how emotion plays a significant role in analytics. He is not and never was Nolan Ryan but some would like you to believe that he was the better player 10 years after they retired. When his support swelled the sabermetric crowd was honking hardest for him because they had their own agenda. The emotional attachment for or against a particular metric is just as strong as the one to a player.

I would listen to your opinion on Jim Edmonds defense well before I would care about how someone groomed the data to represent his defensive value in another 10 years.

I would not. Of course...that would be because Andruw Jones is my favorite player of all time :lol

*Yes he was better defensively than Edmonds* :pimp:

[ralph_i_el]

See this is where the hater comes out and the rest of the conversation become pointless (even though I'll still indulge because I can't help myself). Willie Mays had 2 MVPs. Hank Aaron had 1. Pete Rose had...1.

None of those guys missed 3 of their absolute peak years to the military either.

You can't name 3 better hitters and be serious about it. Really the only ones that are even arguable are Ruth, Bonds, and Ty Cobb. And Bonds is VERY iffy given that he wasn't there before the steroids.

Mays missed a year for Korea and won MVP his first season back. Not three years, but stil:confusedshrug: probably would have had 700 homers if he had played.

[ShawkFactory]

Mays missed a year for Korea and won MVP his first season back. Not three years, but stil:confusedshrug: probably would have had 700 homers if he had played.

Yea that's true, and Mays may very well be the GOAT overall player. But he wasn't the hitter Williams was.


Could certainly argue others but rose isnt one of them.

Yea I mean you can argue a lot of things. And I suppose several could be in the conversation. But only a handful of guys have an actual decent case.

[Full Court]

See this is where the hater comes out and the rest of the conversation become pointless (even though I'll still indulge because I can't help myself). Willie Mays had 2 MVPs. Hank Aaron had 1. Pete Rose had...1.

None of those guys missed 3 of their absolute peak years to the military either.

You can't name 3 better hitters and be serious about it. Really the only ones that are even arguable are Ruth, Bonds, and Ty Cobb. And Bonds is VERY iffy given that he wasn't there before the steroids.

Exactly. He makes it sound like 2 MVPs is a black mark on his record lol.

[Kblaze8855]

I saw someone run the math and conclude that if you went two for five every single game with a homer and an rbi and played all 162 you would still have a lower on base percentage hitting 400 with 162 homers than Barry Bonds in his final MVP season. He got walked that much.

Im not sure he has any peers just as a guy at the plate. You just have to decide not to count him at all.

[ShawkFactory]

I saw someone run the math and conclude that if you went two for five every single game with a homer and an rbi and played all 162 you would still have a lower on base percentage hitting 400 with 162 homers than Barry Bonds in his final MVP season. He got walked that much.

Im not sure he has any peers just as a guy at the plate. You just have to decide not to count him at all.

In the modern era certainly not. But again, despite being the best hitter/player in the game beforehand, the numbers didn't get truly cartoonish until his head did.

So ultimately it's tough to say when comparing to guys like Ruth and Williams. Obviously the game was different back then too, especially for Ruth.

[John8204]

Exactly. He makes it sound like 2 MVPs is a black mark on his record lol.

A number of hitters had 2 MVP's during that same era. Musial, Banks, Robinson, Berra...Williams was good but he was playing in a era where the hitters were good. The man is 14th in WAR which is good but not on the level of Mays and Ruth. Who were also exceptional field players and not just hitters.

The argument I would make for Pete Rose is that Pete competed in and era where great hitting wasn't as common, Rose did a far better job distinguishing himself in his era than Williams did in his. But I see your point.

I would just close with this...Stan Musial has a higher WAR, more MVP's and 3 rings more batting titles, more All-Star appearances, finished his career with more hits, and RBI's...didn't make the top fifty. And he also served in the military.

[ShawkFactory]

A number of hitters had 2 MVP's during that same era. Musial, Banks, Robinson, Berra...Williams was good but he was playing in a era where the hitters were good. The man is 14th in WAR which is good but not on the level of Mays and Ruth. Who were also exceptional field players and not just hitters.

The argument I would make for Pete Rose is that Pete competed in and era where great hitting wasn't as common, Rose did a far better job distinguishing himself in his era than Williams did in his. But I see your point.

I would just close with this...Stan Musial has a higher WAR, more MVP's and 3 rings more batting titles, more All-Star appearances, finished his career with more hits, and RBI's...didn't make the top fifty. And he also served in the military.

Just an absolutely ridiculously false statement.

This whole post is bad, other than Mays and Ruth being better all around players. I can give you that.

Everything else is garbage. Particularly what I highlighted. And particularly particularly the use "far better job".

I think you might be trolling.

[post]

since there's been a lot of baseball talk i'll post this

career war team by position

https://i.postimg.cc/2SW-hqty8/hffg51jdxbtlskyio7gw-1.jpg

baseballegg version would be

lf-ted williams
cf-willie mays
rf-babe ruth
3b-mike schmidt
ss-cal ripken jr.
2b-joe morgan
1b-albert pujols
c-johnny bench
p-walter johnson

there are other ways of doing it but that gives you some idea