New top 15 criteria puts all high-scoring point guard skillsets outside the top 15

[3ba11]

Before anyone says that it's "insane" or "absurd" to say that all high-scoring point guard skillsets, aka "down-hill" skillsets are outside the top 15 all-time, show me where a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka, Lebron, SGA, Westbrook, Harden, Oscar, Tiny, etc produced an "unbeatable" team that mostly won over a 5-year period??

There's never been a high-scoring ball-dominator that mostly won over a 5-year stretch, whereas expert jumpshooters and fundamental bigs produced unbeatable teams all the time, such as Curry winning 3 chips in 4 years, or Duncan winning 3 in 5, or MJ and Kobe three-peating 3 times..

Since high-scoring ball-domination loses the most of any skillset, it's the weakest skillset, which means the best ball-dominators can never be ahead of any of the best of other skillsets (bigs or jumpshooters).. This puts a ceiling on the skillset of about 15th all-time.. It's a predictable, high-pnr spamming skillset that underperforms favored rosters - the watered-down, "aau" skillset is a product of today's hands-off, spaced out beginner format.


https://media.tenor.com/7lwmZMucgFQAAAAM/relaxing-power-rangers.gif

[StrongLurk]

MJ never won a ring. Lebron is the goat.

[John8204]

Obviously this thread is worthless...so ladies and gentlemen something of value...Zoobilee Zoo


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oowOsEOTApA

[Carbine]

Lebron did win 3 in 5 years though....I don't think this is a counting error anymore.

[SouBeachTalents]

Lebron did win 3 in 5 years though....I don't think this is a counting error anymore.
You’re a semi regular poster here, I refuse to believe you’re this naive about 3ball :lol

[3ba11]

Lebron did win 3 in 5 years though....I don't think this is a counting error anymore.


You should be careful because I think that "playing dumb" might be a bannable offense.

Lebron mostly lost with every team that he was on and therefore isn't capable of developing "unbeatable" teams that mostly win over a 5-year period.. Instead, he produces teams that mostly lose and underwhelm.... He went 1/4 with Love and 1/4 with AD, and also Wade (except the Allen miracle), so he mostly lost everywhere he went and goes 1/4 regardless of cast.

The reason that high-scoring ball-dominators can't develop great teams is because it's a statistical fact that they impose spot-up roles and therefore weak chemistry with every cast that they get.. Since high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Luka, Harden, etc cannot develop great chemistry, they always need more talent/help, and they're the only skillset that is always being reported this way.. Otoh, the media never says that Jokic needs more help and they don't clamor all year for GM's to gift the Nuggets good players... Ditto Curry - the media doesn't try to help Curry.. Jordan never needed more help.. Ditto Duncan... These guys were never reported on as "needing more help" because their skillsets could develop great chemistry.

[ILLsmak]

Very low effort.

-Smak

[Phoenix]

3ball talking about bannable behavior made me spit coffee all over my phone.

[sdot_thadon]

All you old rappers trying to advance
It's all over now, take it like a man
****** lookin' like Larry Holmes, flabby and sick
Tryin' to player hate on my shit, you eat a fat ****
Washed up

[3ba11]

Show me where a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka, Lebron, SGA, Westbrook, Harden, Oscar, Tiny, etc produced an "unbeatable" team that mostly won over a 5-year period??..





I rest my case - high-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce great teams and are therefore the lowest skillset - the best ball-dominators cannot be better than the best of other skillsets and therefore cannot be higher than 15th all-time

[3ba11]

Show me where a high-scoring ball-dominator like Luka, Lebron, SGA, Westbrook, Harden, Oscar, Tiny, etc produced an "unbeatable" team that mostly won over a 5-year period??..





I rest my case - high-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce great teams and are therefore the lowest skillset - the best ball-dominators cannot be better than the best of other skillsets and therefore cannot be higher than 15th all-time

[StrongLurk]

Just had a random thought.

Only Shaq (2000, 2001, 2002) and Lebron (2012, 2013, 2016) "mostly" won in a 5 year stretch as first options since 2000. Kobe, Duncan, Curry, KD, and Kawhi never did.

[3ba11]

Just had a random thought.

Only Shaq (2000, 2001, 2002) and Lebron (2012, 2013, 2016) "mostly" won in a 5 year stretch as first options since 2000. Kobe, Duncan, Curry, KD, and Kawhi never did.


Lebron never produced great teams, while Kobe, Curry MJ and other skillsets did

There's never been a high-scoring ball-dominator that produced a great team that mostly won for a stretch, and they only produced much weaker teams that mostly lost every year.. This is over the 75 years of NBA history, so a massive sample.

High-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce great teams because they impose spot-up roles and bad chemistry with every team they ever had

[StrongLurk]

Lebron never produced great teams, while Kobe, Curry MJ and other skillsets did

There's never been a high-scoring ball-dominator that produced a great team that mostly won for a stretch, and they only produced much weaker teams that mostly lost every year.. This is over the 75 years of NBA history, so a massive sample.

High-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce great teams because they impose spot-up roles and bad chemistry with every team they ever had

Only Shaq (2000, 2001, 2002) and Lebron (2012, 2013, 2016) "mostly" won in a 5 year stretch as first options since 2000. Kobe, Duncan, Curry, KD, and Kawhi never did.

You aren't convincing anyone by claiming championship teams aren't "great". You'll have to move the goal post somewhere else.

[3ba11]

Only Shaq (2000, 2001, 2002) and Lebron (2012, 2013, 2016) "mostly" won in a 5 year stretch as first options since 2000. Kobe, Duncan, Curry, KD, and Kawhi never did.


It's about producing great teams, which Lebron never did - he only produced bad teams that mostly lost and that's all high-scoring ball-dominators have ever done in 75 years

[StrongLurk]

It's about producing great teams, which Lebron never did - he only produced bad teams that mostly lost and that's all high-scoring ball-dominators have ever done in 75 years

Your whole thread and premise has been proven wrong multiple times, yet you still just keep copy/pasting.

I guess in your threads reality doesn't matter, so I am going to claim victory with my next sentence. MJ never won a ring. See how easy this is when we stoop to your level?

MJ never won a ring. I win.

[3ba11]

Your whole thread and premise has been proven wrong multiple times, yet you still just keep copy/pasting.

I guess in your threads reality doesn't matter, so I am going to claim victory with my next sentence. MJ never won a ring. See how easy this is when we stoop to your level?

MJ never won a ring. I win.


Lebron never produced a great team and dynasty - this is common knowledge so you look immature by playing dumb

High scoring ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and bad chemistry, so they can't produce great teams and 75 years of NBA history confirms this - they never produced a team that mostly won over a 5-year stretch and only produced weaker teams that mostly lost every year.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron never produced a great team and dynasty - this is common knowledge so you look immature by playing dumb

High scoring ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and bad chemistry, so they can't produce great teams and 75 years of NBA history confirms this - they never produced a team that mostly won over a 5-year stretch and only produced weaker teams that mostly lost every year.

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. Case closed.

[RRR3]

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. Case closed.
MJ was factually the worst player of all time if you look at statistics I made up (the same thing 3ball does). 4 PPG on 23% shooting? ASS.

[3ba11]

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).





Most people on this forum are over 10 years old and therefore understand the concept of producing a great team or dynasty that mostly wins over a 5-year period, versus never producing a great team and producing perennial losers instead.. So that's just an FYI in case there was any confusion on your part that you fool no one.

The Warriors won 3 chips in 4 years and the Spurs won 3 in 5, so history shows that expert jumpshooters and fundamental bigs produce great teams, while high-scoring ball-dominators produce perennial losers that win 1 chip in 4 years like the Cavs, Lakers or Heat (except the Allen miracle).. Other high-scoring ball-dominators like SGA, Harden, Luka and Westbrook produce perennial losers as well - Luka gets housed by ball movement teams like the Warriors or Celtics despite having franchise players like Brunson and Kyrie.

This is just how the game of basketball PLAYS - great jumpshooters and centers produce great teams that can mostly win for periods of time, while high-scoring point guards, aka "ball-dominators" produce perennial losers and the neediest teams in history.. It's because their high-scoring ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles (decreases everyone's assists and increases their assisted rate/play-finishing) and therefore weak chemistry with every roster, regardless of how stacked the roster is or preseason favorite status.. This is basketball 101 and understanding these fundamentals allows better predictions of outcomes and evaluation of prospects.

[Carbine]

Why won't you acknowledge that Lebron won 3 titles and 3 FMVPs in a five year period?

[Overdrive]

High scoring pgs never win. Names Curry as proof for his thesis. :lol:lol:lol

[ShawkFactory]

Why won't you acknowledge that Lebron won 3 titles and 3 FMVPs in a five year period?

Because it’s irritating you and that’s why he’s doing all of this..

He’s a troll dude. Did you not know that?

[John8204]

Lebron never produced a great team and dynasty - this is common knowledge so you look immature by playing dumb



No he just beat the dynasties...something MJ couldn't do

[3ba11]

No he just beat the dynasties...something MJ couldn't do


Chauncey Billups beat a dynasty too.. Whooptiwhoop... :applause::rockon::bowdown:..... So did Bird, Magic, Duncan and Shaq... :confusedshrug:... tons of other guys too - too many to name.

Furthermore, the worst team in the NBA still wins about 10-20 games a year, so everyone wins if they get enough chances... This applies to the Finals as well - Lebron's teams are the worst-ever in the Finals with a 22-33 Finals record, so even the worst Finals teams will still win a title every blue moon in the midst of a sea of losses.. Essentially, the worst team in the league right now is the Pistons, so Lebron's teams are the "Pistons" of the Finals... In the 90's it was the Clippers, so Lebron's teams would've been the "Clippers" of the Finals.

For these reasons, beating a dynasty isn't a big deal in the GOAT debate, particularly in Lebron's case, since his rosters were favored - they were the preseason favorite for an unprecedented 6 straight years (11' to 16').. Unfortunately, Lebron's favored rosters either lost or fell to underdog all 6 years, except the Allen miracle, so Lebron's weak brand and chemistry underachieves favored talent as a STANDARD - it's just a bad brand of ball and it took a miracle (the Allen miracle) to stop Lebron's weak brand from underachieving favored talent.

So again, skillsets that produce great teams that mostly win for stretches will provide better long-run title equity than skillsets that can't produce great teams and only produce perennial losers instead... One skillset has proven incapable of producing great teams, and that's high-scoring ball-dominators, due to their imposition of spot-up roles and the resulting weak chemistry..

Since high-scoring ball-dominators cannot produce great teams, they rank behind the best of other skillsets like jumpshooters or bigs in the all-time rankings, which means the best ball-dominator cannot be higher than about 15th all-time.

[StrongLurk]

Most people on this forum are over 10 years old and therefore understand the concept of producing a great team or dynasty that mostly wins over a 5-year period, versus never producing a great team and producing perennial losers instead.. So that's just an FYI in case there was any confusion on your part that you fool no one.

The Warriors won 3 chips in 4 years and the Spurs won 3 in 5, so history shows that expert jumpshooters and fundamental bigs produce great teams, while high-scoring ball-dominators produce perennial losers that win 1 chip in 4 years like the Cavs, Lakers or Heat (except the Allen miracle).. Other high-scoring ball-dominators like SGA, Harden, Luka and Westbrook produce perennial losers as well - Luka gets housed by ball movement teams like the Warriors or Celtics despite having franchise players like Brunson and Kyrie.

This is just how the game of basketball PLAYS - great jumpshooters and centers produce great teams that can mostly win for periods of time, while high-scoring point guards, aka "ball-dominators" produce perennial losers and the neediest teams in history.. It's because their high-scoring ball-dominance imposes spot-up roles (decreases everyone's assists and increases their assisted rate/play-finishing) and therefore weak chemistry with every roster, regardless of how stacked the roster is or preseason favorite status.. This is basketball 101 and understanding these fundamentals allows better predictions of outcomes and evaluation of prospects.

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. He was a perennial loser.

[3ba11]

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. He was a perennial loser.


Lebron cannot produce great teams

Hundreds of players in history could go 1 for 4 with Love, AD or Wade (except the Allen miracle), so Lebron is a fraud with no goat accomplishment except longevity (playing at a lower level for longer)

[90sgoat]

Isiah Thomas was a high scoring point guard that created an unbeatable team.

That's why he's underrated in the GOAT debates and why he is up there in the top 3 of all time great point guards.

[3ba11]

Isiah Thomas was a high scoring point guard that created an unbeatable team.

That's why he's underrated in the GOAT debates and why he is up there in the top 3 of all time great point guards.


A high-scoring point guard averages 25-30 ppg.

Point guards in the 80's and 90's like Isiah, Magic, KJ and Tim Hardaway averaged only 20 ppg because excessive ball-dominance was considered bad.

And the Pistons never had an unbeatable team, as defined by mostly winning over a 5-year stretch, such as Duncan's Spurs or Curry's Warriors winning 3 chips in 5 years, aka dynasties..

But it's irrelevant because Isiah wasn't a high-scoring point guard, so his teams weren't hampered by excessive ball-dominance and therefore could've been unbeatable and won 3 in 5 years.. It's only the high-scoring point guards (ball-dominators) that can't have unbeatable teams, due to the imposition of spot-up roles and weak chemistry

[Hey Yo]

A high-scoring point guard averages 25-30 ppg.

Point guards in the 80's and 90's like Isiah, Magic, KJ and Tim Hardaway averaged only 20 ppg because excessive ball-dominance was considered bad.

And the Pistons never had an unbeatable team, as defined by mostly winning over a 5-year stretch, such as Duncan's Spurs or Curry's Warriors winning 3 chips in 5 years, aka dynasties.

But it's irrelevant because Isiah wasn't a high-scoring point guard, so his teams weren't hampered by excessive ball-dominance and therefore could've been unbeatable and won 3 in 5 years.. It's only the high-scoring point guards (ball-dominators) that can't have unbeatable teams, due to the imposition of spot-up roles and weak chemistry
You've said dozens of times that those Pistons were a dynasty

[StrongLurk]

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. He was a perennial loser.

[90sgoat]

A high-scoring point guard averages 25-30 ppg.

Point guards in the 80's and 90's like Isiah, Magic, KJ and Tim Hardaway averaged only 20 ppg because excessive ball-dominance was considered bad.

And the Pistons never had an unbeatable team, as defined by mostly winning over a 5-year stretch, such as Duncan's Spurs or Curry's Warriors winning 3 chips in 5 years, aka dynasties..

But it's irrelevant because Isiah wasn't a high-scoring point guard, so his teams weren't hampered by excessive ball-dominance and therefore could've been unbeatable and won 3 in 5 years.. It's only the high-scoring point guards (ball-dominators) that can't have unbeatable teams, due to the imposition of spot-up roles and weak chemistry

Isiah averaged 24.5 in the playoffs from 85-87, so that is 3 seasons.

You are correct in that Pistons didn't win any rings during that era.

[ILLsmak]

Lebron mostly won as 1st option between 2012-2016 (5 years).

MJ never won a ring. He was a perennial loser.

Dude is vamping you haha. Why even waste the time?

-Smak

[3ba11]

History shows that "low-scoring" PG's like Stockton, Nash, Magic or Haliburton can have high-assist teams, but not high-scoring point guards like Luka, Harden, Lebron, SGA, or Westbrook, who consistently have low-assist teams and low ball movement.

Having high-assist teams vs low-assist teams is a stark contrast between 15-20 ppg point guards and 25-35 ppg point guards (high-scoring point guards).

Apparently, the excessive ball-dominance/live-dribbling of high-scoring point guards imposes spot-up roles that lowers everyone's assists.. Lower assists from teammate causes low TEAM assists, weaker chemistry, weaker strategic capacity/coaching and high coaching turnover - the confluence of these factors yields weaker, needy teams and a lottery record on the championship level.

[ralph_i_el]

Does anyone even have small scoring guards in their top 15? Are there people walking around with AI and Curry in their top-15?

[SouBeachTalents]

Does anyone even have small scoring guards in their top 15? Are there people walking around with AI and Curry in their top-15?
Curry is absolutely in the top 15 conversation, I'd even wager he'd be in most top 15 rankings at this point.

[3ba11]

Curry is absolutely in the top 15 conversation, I'd even wager he'd be in most top 15 rankings at this point.


Curry does top 5 things such as 70 wins, dynasty, changing the game, goat shooter, winning with 2nd options that were < Bosh/Love

while Lebron never did anything top 5 caliber - no 70 wins, no dynasty, not goat in any category, aka shooting, scoring, passing, rebounding, stealing or blocking... and needs 3rd options that are > Klay

[SouBeachTalents]

Curry does top 5 things such as 70 wins, dynasty, changing the game, goat shooter, winning with 2nd options that were < Bosh/Love

while Lebron never did anything top 5 caliber - no 70 wins, no dynasty, not goat in any category, aka shooting, scoring, passing, rebounding, stealing or blocking... and needs 3rd options that are > Klay
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?493318-Curry-is-the-most-overrated-player-in-history

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?498686-Let-s-cut-the-BS-about-Curry

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?492449-It-s-time-to-admit-the-16-Warriors-weren-t-that-good-amp-simply-had-strategy-because

[3ba11]

.
Here's Doug Collins saying that 1987 Jordan did not dominate the ball on the way to 37 ppg in 1987:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4OGPNQ01do&t=17m47s


Most people don't realize that the 87' Bulls traded away the top 2 scorers from 85-86', so the 87' Bulls had less help than the rookie Jordan's Bulls in 85'.. They started all over in 87', and that's why MJ had to average 37

[sdot_thadon]

.
Here's Doug Collins saying that 1987 Jordan did not dominate the ball on the way to 37 ppg in 1987:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4OGPNQ01do&t=17m47s


Most people don't realize that the 87' Bulls traded away the top 2 scorers from 85-86', so the 87' Bulls had less help than the rookie Jordan's Bulls in 85'.. They started all over in 87', and that's why MJ had to average 37

He doesn't dominate the ball while rocking the highest usage ever posted at that point in time, only surpassed by the biggest ball dominator ever for the most part. And putting up 28 shots a game. Stfu 3bust.

[3ba11]

He doesn't dominate the ball while rocking the highest usage ever posted at that point in time, only surpassed by the biggest ball dominator ever for the most part. And putting up 28 shots a game. Stfu 3bust.


usage = shot attempts, not ball-domination/live-dribbling, so Klay or Reggie Miller could lead the league in usage if they took 30 shots per game like MJ did

you just don't understand anything that isn't completely simple - any hint of nuance and you cannot understand.

to not understand usage indicates that you might not have finished high school.. :confusedshrug:

[sdot_thadon]

usage = shot attempts, not ball-domination/live-dribbling, so Klay or Reggie Miller could lead the league in usage if they took 30 shots per game like MJ did

you just don't understand anything that isn't completely simple - any hint of nuance and you cannot understand.

to not understand usage indicates that you might not have finished high school.. :confusedshrug:

Read between the lines i know that's punching above your weight but I'm just making light of how silly it is to be concerned about whether or not it was ball dominance when his usage and fga were astronomical for the time, hell any time until the last few years. He still managed to dish out 5 assists and 3 turnovers on top of all that other shit. There's no way to prove he wasn't hogging the ball with all those high marks. A stupidi road to nowhere again.

[3ba11]

Read between the lines i know that's punching above your weight but I'm just making light of how silly it is to be concerned about whether or not it was ball dominance when his usage and fga were astronomical for the time, hell any time until the last few years. He still managed to dish out 5 assists and 3 turnovers on top of all that other shit. There's no way to prove he wasn't hogging the ball with all those high marks. A stupidi road to nowhere again.


Curry, Jordan and ANY expert jumpshooter can take 40 shots and score 60 points WHILE THE BALL MOVES and teammates are assisting them.

that's the key.

Lebron can't do that.. When he scores a lot, the ball isn't moving and teammates become "corner dudes".. Lebron is simply too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he can't beat top teams by scoring a lot of points and therefore needs all-time scoring help.. This includes elite producers and franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option like AD, Kyrie and Wade, instead of secondary producers and non-franchise guys like Klay, Lowry, Terry or Pippen that expert jumpshooters win with.

[sdot_thadon]

Curry, Jordan and ANY expert jumpshooter can take 40 shots and score 60 points WHILE THE BALL MOVES and teammates are assisting them.

that's the key.

Lebron can't do that.. When he scores a lot, the ball isn't moving and teammates become "corner dudes".. Lebron is simply too ball-dominant at carry-job volume, so he can't beat top teams by scoring a lot of points and therefore needs all-time scoring help.. This includes elite producers and franchise guys at 2nd and 3rd option like AD, Kyrie and Wade, instead of secondary producers and non-franchise guys like Klay, Lowry, Terry or Pippen that expert jumpshooters win with.

Not sure why youre trying to group thus guy with Curry as a shooter. Jordan can't do that either. And when Mj is scoring alot he's the only one getting the shots and the rest of his teammates become "jordanaires" what's the difference when they don't get to do anything besides move to make space for Mjs shots? " Pass Mike the ball and get out of the way" isn't any more team friendly than Lebron controlling a possession and either scoring or getting an assist. Its always been a corny ass point in this debate.

[3ba11]

He doesn't dominate the ball while rocking the highest usage ever posted at that point in time, only surpassed by the biggest ball dominator ever for the most part. And putting up 28 shots a game. Stfu 3bust.


So if Klay takes 28 shots per game, he's dominating the ball?

Why watch a sport that you apparently can't understand... It's puzzling

Let me help you out.... Dominating the ball is live-dribbling, like the way a point guard does... Live-dribbling kills ball movement... When one guy is dribbling, the ball isn't moving...

Lower scoring live-dribblers/point guards like Magic, Nash and Haliburton can still let the ball move and have high assist teams, but high-scoring ball-dominators use live-dribbles excessively, so they cannot have high assist teams or ball movement... Consequently, have a weaker brand that performs horribly in the championship level

carry on

[sdot_thadon]

So if Klay takes 28 shots per game, he's dominating the ball?

Why watch a sport that you apparently can't understand... It's puzzling

Youre an idiot of you think catching and shooting is anywhere near as involved as what Mj did. You're just being stupid at this point. Klay scoring 60 possessing the ball for some end of the bench player amount of time. Apples to ufos?

[3ba11]

Youre an idiot of you think catching and shooting is anywhere near as involved as what Mj did. You're just being stupid at this point. Klay scoring 60 possessing the ball for some end of the bench player amount of time. Apples to ufos?


It's like you never watched MJ.

MJ was an off-guard that did a TON of catch-and-shoot, while also scoring very quickly upon the catch for non-catch-and-shoots, due to goat fakes, feints, moves and footwork.

Otoh, Lebron's skillset is basic by comparison - when he catches the ball, he must start a lengthy dribbling exhibition to set up a very basic move and drive.. His excessive live-dribbling/ball-domination kills ball movement, chemistry and prevents great teams.. this is bball 101... So Lebron stinks at hoops compared to MJ

[sdot_thadon]

It's like you never watched MJ.

MJ was an off-guard that did a TON of catch-and-shoot, while also scoring very quickly upon the catch for non-catch-and-shoots, due to goat fakes, feints, moves and footwork.

Otoh, Lebron's skillset is basic by comparison - when he catches the ball, he must start a lengthy dribbling exhibition to set up a very basic move and drive.. His excessive live-dribbling/ball-domination kills ball movement, chemistry and prevents great teams.. this is bball 101... So Lebron stinks at hoops compared to MJ

You're too in love to be a credible source at this point. You think Mj shot as great as Curry, was as tall as wilt, was as fast as Usain Bolt, touched the ball as little as Klay and could average a triple double while doing so. Your brain is fried from too many stupid arguments.

[3ba11]

You're too in love to be a credible source at this point. You think Mj shot as great as Curry, was as tall as wilt, was as fast as Usain Bolt, touched the ball as little as Klay and could average a triple double while doing so. Your brain is fried from too many stupid arguments.


Btw, there are stats for ball-domination like "assisted rate" (the percentage of shots that teammates assist you), where Jordan was assisted on 50% of his buckets compared to 10-30% for Lebron (point guard level)..

Then there's time of possession {hold-time) - Lebron is the only non-point guard in the top 30, which proves that he has a "point guard" hold time.

Then there's the eye test.. Bron is a ball-dominator - Jordan is not... No coach would say that lebron DOESN'T dominate the ball, whereas that's exactly what Collins said about MJ in 87' (here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4OGPNQ01do&t=17m47s)

Btw, there's also jumpshooting volume - MJ made more jumpshots in 87' or 97' than anyone ever did - this is STATISTICAL FACT... in the history of basketball, only MJ and Kobe made over 700 jumpshots in a season... This goat jumpshooting ability is why they're the only guys that could win in the triangle, which requires tremendous jumpshooting from the perimeter star.

[3ba11]

You're too in love to be a credible source at this point. You think Mj shot as great as Curry, was as tall as wilt, was as fast as Usain Bolt, touched the ball as little as Klay and could average a triple double while doing so. Your brain is fried from too many stupid arguments.


There's nothing to be "credible" about - anyone with 2 eyes that watched MJ for 5 minutes on youtube can see that he didn't dominate the ball and use excessive live-dribbles, mostly because his fakes, feints, moves, quickness and footwork were goat.. Also his touch - he shot 53% on paint shots outside of the restricted area in the 86' 1st Round against the #1 defense Celtics - many perimeter players shoot 20-30% on these shots.

[sdot_thadon]

There's nothing to be "credible" about - anyone with 2 eyes that watched MJ for 5 minutes on youtube can see that he didn't dominate the ball and use excessive live-dribbles, mostly because his fakes, feints, moves, quickness and footwork were goat.. Also his touch - he shot 53% on paint shots outside of the restricted area in the 86' 1st Round against the #1 defense Celtics - many perimeter players shoot 20-30% on these shots.

It's just pretty stupid that after like a million posts you can't come to terms with the fact that these guys are different players. Who gives a shit if LeBron dribbles more when Mj shoots more? The best player is the guy you want usiing the possessions. They both have been wildly successful with their given styles. Mj had a hand at playing Lebrons style and it wasnt winning ball for him, they literally introduced an offense to pry the ball out of his hands so his teammates could thrive enough to win chips. It was a forced behavior that paid off big time. Tell me what's the difference between ball domination and ball movement when the ball always finds the same guy's hands to shoot? Means to an end bud. Same result. Best guy on earth making the play whether it's a pass or score.