How would the Showtime Lakers have done without Magic?

[dankok8]

Exact same rosters rom 1980-1989 but no Magic. I was re-watching the Thinking Basketball video on Magic the other day and Ben mentioned the Lakers in the mid to late 80's had a +2.2 rORtg in like ~40 games that Magic missed and obviously he didn't move the needle on D so the Lakers were around a +4 team without him. So they could likely win 50+ games many years.

Three Questions

Without Magic...

1) What is the most wins they would get in a season?

2) How many Finals would they make? Remember the West was really weak much of the decade.

3) How many titles would they win?

Please explain too.

[tpols]

Probably how they did before him. Even with prime Kareem not too well. Magic was Showtime. He had the crazy high skill and IQ with the flair to back it up. Honestly dont think they win much of anything without him title wise.

[Neal Romer]

We always overstate individual greatness because we enjoy the narrative, and because a single hero's efforts are always easier for our brains to conceptualize than the functioning of a complex system with multiple interworking parts. But the reality is team sports are the latter.

Of course Magic was an all time great player. But like any other player in the top 10 besides Lebron, the idea that they just won all those games and titles on their own is nonsense. They all had squads during the time in their careers when they were winning. Except for Lebron.

So yeah, the Lakers probably still win a good amount of games without Magic. And still make decent playoff runs and so on. But as the margins get finer deeper in the playoffs, to win multiple championships you almost certainly do need Magic on that team. But thats not to say you wouldnt need Worthy to win multiple chips. Just like you wouldnt win 6 without MJ, you also wouldnt win six without Pippen.

So, people who try to reduce these convos down to being about one ATG's win totals vs another ATG, usually dont have what you would call "a whole lotta perspective goin on."


So my answer to your exact question about the Lakers non-Magic win totals, is who the hell cares.

[SouBeachTalents]

The only scenario where you could straight up remove an ATG player and the team could still legitimately win titles without them is KD on the Warriors. Any other example, I seriously doubt it, even Magic playing on this incredibly loaded team in a historically weak conference.

[tpols]

The only scenario where you could straight up remove an ATG player and the team could still legitimately win titles without them is KD on the Warriors. Any other example, I seriously doubt it, even Magic playing on this incredibly loaded team in a historically weak conference.

Kareem was pretty much a shell by the late 80s and early 90s he was gone but Magic was still leading the Lakers to the championship and multiple Finals. It seemed as though one needed the other more. It's kind of a Durant vs Curry situation.

[L.Kizzle]

Would have been fine. Norm Nixon was putting up 17/8 in the backcourt with Magic. Norm was actually the PG not Magic.

[EllEffEll]

Probably how they did before him. Even with prime Kareem not too well. Magic was Showtime. He had the crazy high skill and IQ with the flair to back it up. Honestly don't think they win much of anything without him title wise.

This. I had a season ticket one year and went to a lot of other Showtime era games including two Finals games in both 80 and 82. The Lakers had Batman A and Batman B. If one didn't get you, the other one would. Or both. No Magic, no titles IMHO. Of course, the same goes for Kareem. The Lakers had KAJ and Magic and needed them both to be five time champs.

[iamgine]

If exact same roster, then they wouldn't be very good since they built that roster with Magic as cornerstone.

More likely they'd acquire someone else. Dr J or Gervin comes to mind. Or they might've drafted Moncrief. It will be a very different team.

[JBSptfn]

If exact same roster, then they wouldn't be very good since they built that roster with Magic as cornerstone.

More likely they'd acquire someone else. Dr J or Gervin comes to mind. Or they might've drafted Moncrief. It will be a very different team.

From what I hear, they would have drafted Moncrief (I heard that the coach wanted to anyway, but Dr. Buss overruled him and took Magic) if the Bulls would have won the coin toss instead of the Lakers because Magic probably returns to Michigan State (allegedly, Dominique Wilkins and James Worthy would have joined him if he returned for his junior season).

[Phoenix]

Who is his replacement? You don't just replace what Magic did for that team. Everyone was a threat on the floor with him and that's what made them historically great. He's arguably the GOAT team player.

[dankok8]

Full Magic WOWY Data

1980 -- With Magic (77 games) 56-21 W-L +6.0 MOV -- Without Magic (5 games) 4-1 W-L +4.2 MOV
1981 -- With Magic (37 games) 26-11 W-L +6.2 MOV -- Without Magic (45 games) 28-17 W-L +1.8 MOV
1982 -- With Magic (78 games) 55-23 W-L +5.4 MOV -- Without Magic (4 games) 2-2 W-L -5.0 MOV
1983 -- With Magic (79 games) 57-22 W-L +6.0 MOV -- Without Magic (3 games) 1-2 W-L -5.3 MOV
1984 -- With Magic (67 games) 46-21 W-L +4.3 MOV -- Without Magic (15 games) 8-7 W-L +1.3 MOV
1985 -- With Magic (77 games) 59-18 W-L +7.8 MOV -- Without Magic (5 games) 3-2 W-L +0.2 MOV
1986 -- With Magic (72 games) 56-16 W-L +8.1 MOV -- Without Magic (10 games) 6-4 W-L +5.4 MOV
1987 -- With Magic (80 games) 63-17 W-L +9.4 MOV -- Without Magic (2 games) 2-0 W-L +6.0 MOV
1988 -- With Magic (72 games) 57-15 W-L +7.2 MOV -- Without Magic (10 games) 5-5 W-L -3.7 MOV
1989 -- With Magic (77 games) 54-23 W-L +7.8 MOV -- Without Magic (5 games) 3-2 W-L -2.6 MOV
1990 -- With Magic (79 games) 62-17 W-L +7.5 MOV -- Without Magic (3 games) 1-2 W-L -12.3 MOV
1991 -- With Magic (79 games) 57-22 W-L +6.8 MOV -- Without Magic (3 games) 1-2 W-L +4.0 MOV

Total -- With Magic (874 games) 648-226 W-L +6.93 MOV -- Without Magic (110 games) 64-46 W-L +0.73 MOV

[Im Still Ballin]

Exact same rosters rom 1980-1989 but no Magic. I was re-watching the Thinking Basketball video on Magic the other day and Ben mentioned the Lakers in the mid to late 80's had a +2.2 rORtg in like ~40 games that Magic missed and obviously he didn't move the needle on D so the Lakers were around a +4 team without him. So they could likely win 50+ games many years.

Three Questions

Without Magic...

1) What is the most wins they would get in a season?

2) How many Finals would they make? Remember the West was really weak much of the decade.

3) How many titles would they win?

Please explain too.

I'm going to go...

1) I think they've got the talent and offensive firepower to land in that 50 to 55-win bracket once or twice. I'll say 55-27. Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes, Scott, etc.
2) 1980, 1982, 1984, and 1985 are the potential years I've identified. I think they make two out of those four seasons.
3) I would go with 0. The early-to-mid '80s 76ers and Celtics are just too good.

Kind of like the '80s Dallas Mavericks but a little more successful. Two or three 50 to 55 win seasons and a bunch of 45-50 win seasons also.

[Xiao Yao You]

Who is his replacement? You don't just replace what Magic did for that team. Everyone was a threat on the floor with him and that's what made them historically great. He's arguably the GOAT team player.

Norm nixon which means no byron scott

[dankok8]

I'm going to go...

1) I think they've got the talent and offensive firepower to land in that 50 to 55-win bracket once or twice. I'll say 55-27. Kareem, Worthy, Nixon, Wilkes, Scott, etc.
2) 1980, 1982, 1984, and 1985 are the potential years I've identified. I think they make two out of those four seasons.
3) I would go with 0. The early-to-mid '80s 76ers and Celtics are just too good.

Kind of like the '80s Dallas Mavericks but a little more successful. Two or three 50 to 55 win seasons and a bunch of 45-50 win seasons also.

We mostly agree.

I think they'll have more than two 50+ seasons. Agree with two finals appearances. In terms of titles, I think 1980 is doable if Kareem would have come back for Game 7 or in an alternate universe doesn't injure his ankle in the Finals at all. After that, Kareem gets too old and isn't good enough to lead that team to a title over really strong teams like the 76ers and Celtics as you said.