How is LeBron better than Magic?

[Walk on Water]

How is LeBron a hybrid? Magic not only averaged more than 11 assists per game, but had a better assist/turnover ratio. Magic is also a much better rebounder for his position. And it doesn’t matter that he’s taller, cuz that never gets used against LeBron.

They say LeBron is a pass first player. No Magic is a pass first player. If LeBron sacrificed points for assists, he would be praised as the goat. So what’s the difference?

I’m not saying that it’s wrong to think LeBron is better. But to act like there not on the same level is kinda silly. I think there’s a lot more myth to Lebron’s legacy than with Magic’s. If you didn’t hear the media promoting him constantly you might not think as highly as Magic. At the very least Magic has more rings, better passing, better assists ratio, better rebounding for his position. You might be able to make an argument that Magic is as good of a scorer for his position.

[SouBeachTalents]

They're definitely both better than Curry

[Walk on Water]

They're definitely both better than Curry


Yet you somehow had to drag him into this.

[3ba11]

Magic was superior because he was a true hybrid (while Lebron is more of a sheer ball-dominator/live-dribbler), and also because he wasn't a HIGH-scoring point guard, so he didn't impose spot-up roles and weak chemistry and low-assist teams.

[Full Court]

Magic was superior because he was a true hybrid (while Lebron is more of a sheer ball-dominator/live-dribbler), and also because he wasn't a HIGH-scoring point guard, so he didn't impose spot-up roles and weak chemistry and low-assist teams.

This. Lebron is not better than Magic. He's a better pure scorer, but as far as the team sport of basketball goes, where the objective is winning, Magic is the better player.

[Stephonit]

They're definitely both better than Curry

That Curry is on your mind when this subject comes up even though Curry wasn't mentioned just shows that deep down you know he's really better than both.

[dankok8]

I always felt that Magic and Lebron is a better comparison both stylistically and in terms of their mindset than Jordan and Lebron. Take Magic remove some of the court vision and add a lot of athleticism and you get Lebron. As for how is Lebron better than Magic? Simple. It's defense. I think at their best, you can say Magic was a bit superior offensively although they are on the same tier but Lebron definitely has a big defensive edge and thus an edge overall.

[Walk on Water]

This. Lebron is not better than Magic. He's a better pure scorer, but as far as the team sport of basketball goes, where the objective is winning, Magic is the better player.


Yea. People wanna say that Lebron is like Magic. But look at Magic's passing stats. They are superior. There is only one Magic at the point guard. And if winning is the main goal, then Magic has that too. More titles in less seasons.

In terms of rebounding, MJ has better numbers for his position. Now LB fans will bring up defense, but when we compare other players, they say defense doesn't matter.

[3ba11]

lebron is a high-scoring live-dribbler with a low assisted rate (he does everything himself and isn't assisted by teammates), while Magic was a true hybrid big man/guard that played in the paint, post, high-post and perimeter without excessive ball-domination - we don't have his assisted rates but I would be willing to bet that they're 40-50%..

Magic had a goat post game and made quick decisions upon the catch and had efficient dribbling, so he facilitated ball movement and high assist teams.. Otoh, Lebron's high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles and lowers teammate assists, to the TEAM has low assists and a brand that competes poorly on the championship level.

[Manny98]

LeBron destroys Magic in everything except for passing and even then LeBron is a top 3 passing non PG so it's not even close

[ArbitraryWater]

This guy again lmao

[ILLsmak]

Popular vote. Aiyyeee

-Smak

[Walk on Water]

LeBron destroys Magic in everything except for passing and even then LeBron is a top 3 passing non PG so it's not even close


Well I just showed you that that's not the case. Magic is a better rebounder for his position. Better teammate. More rings. And the passing is not close. So you lied. Lebron does not destroy Magic in everything. You didn't even name one thing.

Mann98 is the perfect example of a Lebron supporter. He doesn't even debate, but just says it is so because he says so. This is why Lebron fans are delusional. They don't care about facts.

And also, how is that relevant if Lebron is a top 3 non Point guard? (Which I also don't agree with) The difference between him and Magic is so vast in that area that your statement doesn't hold any relevancy to the discussion. Magic is the best point guard of all time. Lebron is not even close in that area. But you don't want to discuss that, huh? Or the fact Magic has more rings and played LESS seasons. You don't want to talk about that either huh? Just walk away I guess and proves my point further.

[Walk on Water]

lebron is a high-scoring live-dribbler with a low assisted rate (he does everything himself and isn't assisted by teammates), while Magic was a true hybrid big man/guard that played in the paint, post, high-post and perimeter without excessive ball-domination - we don't have his assisted rates but I would be willing to bet that they're 40-50%..

Magic had a goat post game and made quick decisions upon the catch and had efficient dribbling, so he facilitated ball movement and high assist teams.. Otoh, Lebron's high-scoring ball-domination imposes spot-up roles and lowers teammate assists, to the TEAM has low assists and a brand that competes poorly on the championship level.



Exactly this. Magic is better than Lebron. If that wasn't the case, Lebron wouldn't need all the super teams to win 3 championships.

[iamgine]

The real question is how is Lebron better than Andre Miller.

[Phoenix]

lebron is a high-scoring live-dribbler with a low assisted rate (he does everything himself and isn't assisted by teammates), while Magic was a true hybrid big man/guard that played in the paint, post, high-post and perimeter without excessive ball-domination - we don't have his assisted rates but I would be willing to bet that they're 40-50%..

.

Weird, given how you're on record as saying Magic was a ball dominator. But because the topic is about Lebron, you have to backtrack that take a little bit to push for Magic's superiority.

[tpols]

LeBron destroys Magic in everything except for passing and even then LeBron is a top 3 passing non PG so it's not even close

Garnett and Duncan are technically better than Dirk @ everything except shooting yet all 3 had similar impact in their primes and Dirk has even beaten them H2H in the playoffs. Logic like that would tell us Gary Payton > Curry because all steph was really better than Payton at is scoring.

But the thing is Magic / Curry / Dirks offense was so game breaking it made up for it all. Magic led teams with way better offensive ranks than Lebron and it is because his style was conducive to maximum chemistry and teammate elevation instead of playing the one man army scoring style like Lebron / Luka / Harden etc. You can technically win with the latter style but it's just harder. That's why Magic won more rings in half the time. 5 rings in one decade.

[Phoenix]

Garnett and Duncan are technically better than Dirk @ everything except shooting yet all 3 had similar impact in their primes and Dirk has even beaten them H2H in the playoffs. Logic like that would tell us Gary Payton > Curry because all steph was really better than Payton at is scoring.

But the thing is Magic / Curry / Dirks offense was so game breaking it made up for it all. Magic led teams with way better offensive ranks than Lebron and it is because his style was conducive to maximum chemistry and teammate elevation instead of playing the one man army scoring style like Lebron / Luka / Harden etc. You can technically win with the latter style but it's just harder. That's why Magic won more rings in half the time. 5 rings in one decade.

True but he also had one hell of a squad. I don't think he's leading the bottom drags of the West to 5 rings.

[tpols]

True but he also had one hell of a squad. I don't think he's leading the bottom drags of the West to 5 rings.

I mean did Magic really have more help than Lebron? At the beginning of their careers sure but for the past 13 years? I wouldnt say so. Magic was still winning even after Kareem was done. And they both played in a weak conference for most of their careers. Magic was beating dynasty teams in the Finals though and won more than he lost. He packed 5 rings into a shortened career.

[Phoenix]

I mean did Magic really have more help than Lebron? At the beginning of their careers sure but for the past 13 years? I wouldnt say so. Magic was still winning even after Kareem was done. And they both played in a weak conference for most of their careers. Magic was beating dynasty teams in the Finals though and won more than he lost. He packed 5 rings into a shortened career.

I'm talking about his level of help relative to the league he was in, not in comparison to Lebron. It's possible he doesn't win 5 out of 9 having to deal with Philly, Boston and Detroit if the Lakers were in the east.

[tpols]

I'm talking about his level of help relative to the league he was in, not in comparison to Lebron. It's possible he doesn't win 5 out of 9 having to deal with Philly, Boston and Detroit if the Lakers were in the east.

Magic has a winning record against Philly, Boston, and Detroit in the playoffs. He played them 8 times and went 5-3 in series vs those teams.

[Phoenix]

Magic has a winning record against Philly, Boston, and Detroit in the playoffs. He played them 8 times and went 5-3 in series vs those teams.

Yes but that's not to say if he's facing them every year in a tougher conference that the same results will bear out. Basically you're saying he's still getting to the finals 9 times regardless of which conference, and I just don't see it. If the Lakers were relatively less tested on their way to the finals coming out of the west, they would be facing more battle-tested eastern finals opponents, giving them an inherit edge.

[tpols]

Yea I agree with that. East was more of a gauntlet an that takes its toll. But he still showed to have a winning record against them. Where as Lebron has a losing record vs Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Nuggets, Celtics etc. as a whole.

[Phoenix]

I don't blame him for the Spurs in 2007. That would be akin to expecting MJ to best the Celtics in 86. Or even the Celics in 2008 and to a lesser degree 2010. 2008 was like MJ going against the Pistons in 89, the best individual losing to a superior team. 2010 the Cavs were on top of the conference but I feel like their record over sold how good they were in reality. Of course you have bullshit like 3ball saying Mo Williams was better than Pippen and such nonsense, but I never thought they were a legit contender. Even if they got past the Celtics, I would have taken the Lakers over them due to the massive interior edge and I feel like Kobe's experience and poise would have neutralized Lebron. No excuse in 2011, a historic meltdown.

[Full Court]

Weird, given how you're on record as saying Magic was a ball dominator. But because the topic is about Lebron, you have to backtrack that take a little bit to push for Magic's superiority.

Both can be true though. He can be a ball dominator AND be superior to the other ball dominator Lebron.

[StrongLurk]

Never heard of this "Magic" guy that OP is talking about. Clearly not close to the modern-era GOAT, Lebron.

[SouBeachTalents]

Who would've thought that 3ball, tpols & Full Court would've went with Magic. Truly shocking developments :lol

[Walk on Water]

Garnett and Duncan are technically better than Dirk @ everything except shooting yet all 3 had similar impact in their primes and Dirk has even beaten them H2H in the playoffs. Logic like that would tell us Gary Payton > Curry because all steph was really better than Payton at is scoring.

But the thing is Magic / Curry / Dirks offense was so game breaking it made up for it all. Magic led teams with way better offensive ranks than Lebron and it is because his style was conducive to maximum chemistry and teammate elevation instead of playing the one man army scoring style like Lebron / Luka / Harden etc. You can technically win with the latter style but it's just harder. That's why Magic won more rings in half the time. 5 rings in one decade.



I like this. Substance. Too many people will just say LeBron and move on. Without looking into it.

[Walk on Water]

Never heard of this "Magic" guy that OP is talking about. Clearly not close to the modern-era GOAT, Lebron.


And folks this is the problem with modern day, young fans. They don’t even know who Magic Johnson is. How can they say LeBron is the only good player when they have never heard of Magic? This is another of many examples. And this is the problem. And this guy isn’t sarcastic. He’s serious!

[tpols]

Who would've thought that 3ball, tpols & Full Court would've went with Magic. Truly shocking developments :lol


I don't know about the rest, but I gave full logical arguments on the matter. Lebron has had a better NBA career due to longevity / accolades, and the two are close like any top GOAT players are in terms of impact... but Magic won more in half the time. That's undisputed fact. If Lebron was toiling on shitty teams his whole career I'd have to add that context and subtract it from the analysis but he simply wasn't. And so it is what it is.

[Hey Yo]

I mean did Magic really have more help than Lebron? At the beginning of their careers sure but for the past 13 years? I wouldnt say so. Magic was still winning even after Kareem was done. And they both played in a weak conference for most of their careers. Magic was beating dynasty teams in the Finals though and won more than he lost. He packed 5 rings into a shortened career.

Put Magic on Cleveland for his first 7yrs and it leads to zero rings.

Magic had the luxury of 1st round byes, 3gm series in a garbage conference while riding Kareems coattails from the outset. He wasn't asked to concentrate more on scoring until his 8th year in the league considering Kareem was clearly on the decline.

LeBron was asked to do it all as an 18yr old from the open practice.

[3ba11]

.

1988 2ND ROUND (Jazz lose in 7)

STOCKTON...... 19.3 and 16.4 apg.. 58.8 ts.. 4.0 steals
MAGIC............ 18.7 and 10.3 apg.. 57.1 ts.. 1.0 steals


^^^ Stockton dominated Magic, but Magic was carried to narrow victory by teammates, similar to Lebron on various occasions





Put Magic on Cleveland for his first 7yrs and it leads to zero rings.





Iverson's Sixers could never win the 80's West... Ditto Kidd's Nets, or Dwight's Magic, or Lebron's Cavs...

The 80's West wasn't nearly as weak as the 00's East because the 00's East is the only conference in history that was won by numerous 1-star teams - it's the only conference where it was standard for 1-star teams to win, and therefore doesn't compare to the 80's West.

Secondly, Magic would've easily led Iverson's Sixers to the Finals, or Kidd's Nets or Lebron's Cavs because he only had to beat so-so teams.... Nothing like Drexler's Blazers, or Hakeem & Ralph Sampson's Rockets, or the Stockton/Malone Jazz.







Put Magic on Cleveland for his first 7yrs and it leads to zero rings.





Magic isn't that far behind Jordan, and Jordan would've obviously 3-peated with the East all-star center, HOF coach, and an acquisition that was better than 1990 Pippen on both sides of the ball:



05' HUGHES......... 21.6 PER... 4.3 BPM... 0.157 WS/48... 3.7 VORP.... 22/6/5... 1st Team All-D
90' PIPPEN........... 16.3 PER... 1.8 BPM... 0.087 WS/48... 3.0 VORP.... 16/6/5... No All-D


MJ's early playoff records are worse because he was thrown into the playoffs right away as a rookie 8 seed, while Lebron had 3 years to develop a high seed before entering the 06' Playoffs - the all-star duo of Lebron and Zydrunas added a 22/5/5 all-defender and HOF coach to make their first playoffs as a favored high seed, so their casts were considered "good" relative to their in-conference peers.


.




Put Magic on Cleveland for his first 7yrs and it leads to zero rings.





Btw, the "unskilled" Stockton dominated Magic in the 88' Playoffs by averaging 19/16 and 4.0 steals to nearly beat the champion Lakers, and then Stockton nearly beat Jordan 10 years later and then dominated the "modern player" Arenas at 40 years old... Stockton also beat Magic 24.5 to 17.2 in gamescore, so Magic was completely dominated by Stockton but got carried by teammates to narrow victory... Of course Lebron carried all the time and also Stockton was just THAT GREAT.

Stockton is an example of how 90's sidekicks were actually dominant "1b's" that could carry their team to the Finals like Stockton did in the 97' WCF over Barkley, or he dominated Magic in 88'.. Similarly, Terry Porter carried the Blazers to the 90' Finals, and then he did it again in the 92' WCF (26/4/8 with 53% threes on 6 attempts)... Meanwhile, KJ carried the Suns the 90' WCF by upsetting Magic's 1-seeded Lakers, while KJ also dominated Hakeem twice in two different 7-game series in 94' and 95' Playoffs.. Penny and Payton obviously dominated many series with elite stats and production... The only sidekick that lacked an elite production capability or dominance was Pippen, who wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq..

[sdot_thadon]

How? The same way Mj is better than Magic. You guys are silly to not realize every box Mj ticks to be "Better" than the other Itop 10 guys, Lebron ticks the same boxes and maybe some Mj doesn't. If you want to simplify the argument as we love to do here, Magic had goat level offensive impact like Lebron and a few of the top 10 guys did. However Magic was never named to a single all defensive team in his career. You'd have to be able to prove that Magics dominance on offense was greater enough to overcome his shortcomings defensively, but in doing so you'd also prove he's worthy of being better than Mj at the same time. Do we(meaning you) really want to do thaf?

[3ba11]

Lebron has a basic PNR spamming skillset that doesn't compare to the true hybrid nature of Magic's game - this "down-hill" or PNR spam skillset is essentially high-volume ball-dominance that imposes spot-up roles, and this weak brand/chemistry cannot produce great teams regardless of cast... Teammates become "corner dudes", so his teams are perennial losers that compete at a lottery level in the championship (22-33 and -86 plus/minus).

[SouBeachTalents]

3ball dismisses LeBron's 2020 title averaging 27.6 ppg as "2nd option" because he scored 2 less points than AD. Not 2 less ppg, literally 2 less points over a 20 game sample size.

Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.

[StrongLurk]

3ball dismisses LeBron's 2020 title averaging 27.6 ppg as "2nd option" because he scored 2 less points than AD. Not 2 less ppg, literally 2 less points over a 20 game sample size.

Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.

He is a dumb troll. He uses the same play book below.

Comparing any player to MJ = those players suck
Comparing any player to Lebron = those players are amazing and Lebron sucks

Same troll bot every day.

[tpols]

3ball dismisses LeBron's 2020 title averaging 27.6 ppg as "2nd option" because he scored 2 less points than AD. Not 2 less ppg, literally 2 less points over a 20 game sample size.

Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.


I think the point is Magics offenses were all time great #1 ranks. It was "Show Time". Lebrons 2020 team offensive rank was 11th.

[dankok8]

Using the superteam argument against Lebron in this case makes no sense when Magic had stacked offensive rosters. According to Thinking Basketball, from 1986-1989, the Lakers had a +2.4 rORtg in the games Magic missed and that's with Cooper also missing a few of those games and he was their secondary playmaker. So the Lakers even with an old Kareem were still a clear top 10 offense without Magic. Just a 29-game sample which is smallish but it's not 5 games either so I do think this data is a signal.

Despite that I think offensively you can make a case for Magic > Lebron. They are kind of in the same tier on offense. But overall there is hardly a case to me just because of how much better Lebron is on defense.

[3ba11]

3ball dismisses LeBron's 2020 title averaging 27.6 ppg as "2nd option" because he scored 2 less points than AD. Not 2 less ppg, literally 2 less points over a 20 game sample size.

Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.


So wait a minute - you're saying that Lebron had a teammate lead him in scoring for entire playoff run, while MJ led by 10-30 ppg massive margin in every SERIES?... so how do you think lebron is better than mj, when Lebron is clearly getting carried to titles by comparison?.. it's weird how bron fans state things like you just did that clearly show his inferiority.. very weird.

[tpols]

So the Lakers even with an old Kareem were still a clear top 10 offense without Magic. Just a 29-game sample which is smallish but it's not 5 games either.


The Lakers with Lebron and prime AD since 2020 have finished as the 11th, 24th, 23rd, 20th, and 15th ranked offenses.

Even the 1991 Lakers finished as an elite top 5 offense, and Magics help was a 21/4 James Worthy and 13 ppg Sam Perkins and Byron Scott.

If you look at the offenses they produced it's not really close on that front.

[StrongLurk]

So wait a minute - you're saying that Lebron had a teammate lead him in scoring for entire playoff run, while MJ led by 10-30 ppg massive margin in every SERIES?... so how do you think lebron is better than mj, when Lebron is clearly getting carried to titles by comparison?.. it's weird how bron fans state things like you just did that clearly show his inferiority.. very weird.

So based on the logic of this post, Lebron is > Magic since Lebron was a better scorer and Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.

So I guess you DO think Lebron is better than Magic.

[dankok8]

The Lakers with Lebron and prime AD since 2020 have finished as the 11th, 24th, 23rd, 20th, and 15th ranked offenses.

Even the 1991 Lakers finished as an elite top 5 offense, and Magics help was a 21/4 James Worthy and 13 ppg Sam Perkins and Byron Scott.

If you look at the offenses they produced it's not really close on that front.

I know. Lebron on the Lakers really hasn't produced good offenses. But he's not in his prime anymore either except in 2020.

But prime Lebron in Miami and 2nd Cleveland stint did. It is close if you compare 2011-2018 Lebron vs. prime Magic. Both regular season and playoffs.

[SouBeachTalents]

So based on the logic of this post, Lebron is > Magic since Lebron was a better scorer and Magic has 4 titles averaging less than 20 ppg, finishing 3rd, 4th, 3rd and 2nd in scoring on his own team.

So I guess you DO think Lebron is better than Magic.
Bro, it's too easy, it's like arguing with a special ed kid :lol

[StrongLurk]

Bro, it's too easy, it's like arguing with a special ed kid :lol

Like I said, he is a dumb troll. He uses the same play book below.

Comparing any player to MJ = those players suck
Comparing any player to Lebron = those players are amazing and Lebron sucks

Same troll bot every day.

[3ba11]

Worthy was still a star as 3rd option alongside Magic, while Love/Bosh were destroyed alongside Lebron.

It's important to note that teammates saw higher assists alongside Magic, so the TEAM had high assists, while teammates saw lower assists and spot-up roles alongside Lebron, so the TEAM had low assists and a brand that struggled on the championship level..

High-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, Luka and SGA impose spot-up roles, lower teammate assists and low team assists, while lower-scoring point guards like Nash, Magic and Haliburton let the ball move and have high-assist teams regularly.. Higher team assists means better chemistry, better-performing cast, and better teams.

[Hey Yo]

I know. Lebron on the Lakers really hasn't produced good offenses. But he's not in his prime anymore either except in 2020.

But prime Lebron in Miami and 2nd Cleveland stint did. It is close if you compare 2011-2018 Lebron vs. prime Magic. Both regular season and playoffs.
You're really suggesting that a 35yr old, in his 17th season, coming off of 8 Finals appearances in 9yrs was still considered to be in his prime?

[tpols]

I know. Lebron on the Lakers really hasn't produced good offenses. But he's not in his prime anymore either except in 2020.

But prime Lebron in Miami and 2nd Cleveland stint did. It is close if you compare 2011-2018 Lebron vs. prime Magic. Both regular season and playoffs.


2011-2018 Lebron led 0 #1 ranked offenses. Magic led 7 of them between 1980 and 1991. And most of Magics #1 ranked offenses came after Kareems prime was pretty much out in the late 80s.

Not trying to break balls, but that's just what it was. Magic generated elite time offenses on another level.

[StrongLurk]

Worthy was still a star as 3rd option alongside Magic, while Love/Bosh were destroyed alongside Lebron.

It's important to note that teammates saw higher assists alongside Magic, so the TEAM had high assists, while teammates saw lower assists and spot-up roles alongside Lebron, so the TEAM had low assists and a brand that struggled on the championship level..

High-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron, Harden, Luka and SGA impose spot-up roles, lower teammate assists and low team assists, while lower-scoring point guards like Nash, Magic and Haliburton let the ball move and have high-assist teams regularly.. Higher team assists means better chemistry, better-performing cast, and better teams.

According to your PPG = everything framework, Magic was the 2nd, 3nd, and even 4th option on his own team. Therefore he can't be compared to Lebron who was almost always the leading scorer. In fact, Lebron has the second highest % of all time when it comes to lead his team in scoring for playoff series.

You think Lebron > Magic, you simply don't want to say it :lol

[ShawkFactory]

2011-2018 Lebron led 0 #1 ranked offenses. Magic led 7 of them between 1980 and 1991. And most of Magics #1 ranked offenses came after Kareems prime was pretty much out in the late 80s.

Not trying to break balls, but that's just what it was. Magic generated elite time offenses on another level.

That is true. Although The Heat and Cavs respectively did have the #1 ranked offenses in the playoffs in 12-13 and 16-17. Not the end-all-be-all of course because the sample is smaller but has tended to coast in the RS and this does show that they can ramp things up in the playoffs.

[dankok8]

Here are the regular season (RS ORtg) and postseason (PS ORtg) offenses for both Magic and Lebron teams.

Magic: RS rORtg/PS rORtg

1980: +4.2/+6.2
1981: +2.1/-2.8
1982: +3.3/+7.4
1983: +5.8/+3.9
1984: +3.3/+7.5
1985: +6.2/+9.8
1986: +6.1/+6.4
1987: +7.3/+10.5
1988: +5.1/+7.8
1989: +6.0/+9.1
1990: +5.9/+7.7
1991: +4.2/+5.6
1996: +3.8/-6.0

AVERAGE: +4.9/+7.1


Lebron: RS rORtg/PS rORtg

2004: -1.5/N/A
2005: +0.5/N/A
2006: +1.6/-1.3
2007: -0.9/-2.8
2008: -1.5/+0.8
2009: +4.1/+7.3
2010: +3.6/+3.7
2011: +4.5/+3.6
2012: +2.0/+8.4
2013: +6.5/+8.2
2014: +4.3/+9.7
2015: +5.5/+4.2
2016: +4.5/+11.4
2017: +4.8/+13.2
2018: +4.3/+3.1
2019: -1.6/N/A
2020: +1.4/+4.9
2021: -2.4/-7.2
2022: -1.7/N/A
2023: -0.3/+0.4
2024: +0.6/-1.3

AVERAGE: +1.8/+5.0

[3ba11]

When Lebron entered the league, no one expected him to give up after Year 7 and team up with opponents thereafter, so he failed expectation and is therefore inferior to Magic... He never produced great teams and produces perennial losers such as 1 chip in 4 years with AD, Love or Wade (except the Allen miracle).. So he produces perennial losers, while Magic produced perennial winners that could mostly win over a material period, like 3 chips in 5 years.

[ShawkFactory]

Here are the regular season (RS ORtg) and postseason (PS ORtg) offenses for both Magic and Lebron teams.

Magic: RS rORtg/PS rORtg

1980: +4.2/+6.2
1981: +2.1/-2.8
1982: +3.3/+7.4
1983: +5.8/+3.9
1984: +3.3/+7.5
1985: +6.2/+9.8
1986: +6.1/+6.4
1987: +7.3/+10.5
1988: +5.1/+7.8
1989: +6.0/+9.1
1990: +5.9/+7.7
1991: +4.2/+5.6
1996: +3.8/-6.0

AVERAGE: +4.9/+7.1


Lebron: RS rORtg/PS rORtg

2004: -1.5/N/A
2005: +0.5/N/A
2006: +1.6/-1.3
2007: -0.9/-2.8
2008: -1.5/+0.8
2009: +4.1/+7.3
2010: +3.6/+3.7
2011: +4.5/+3.6
2012: +2.0/+8.4
2013: +6.5/+8.2
2014: +4.3/+9.7
2015: +5.5/+4.2
2016: +4.5/+11.4
2017: +4.8/+13.2
2018: +4.3/+3.1
2019: -1.6/N/A
2020: +1.4/+4.9
2021: -2.4/-7.2
2022: -1.7/N/A
2023: -0.3/+0.4
2024: +0.6/-1.3

AVERAGE: +1.8/+5.0


Pretty similar on/offs. Second stint Cavs Lebron was really an offensive genius. Lots of times you could seem him calling out defenses before they even got set.

[3ba11]

Pretty similar on/offs. Second stint Cavs Lebron was really an offensive genius. Lots of times you could seem him calling out defenses before they even got set.


My high school point guard - Zach Randolph's older brother - used to do that.

Infact, similar to many high school teams in Indiana at the time, players were taught to memorize the opponent's plays, and coaches obtained footage and mimicked opponent's sets in practice leading up to games - it's standard for pretty much every college and varsity high school team in history to prepare this way, and Zach's brother was the best on our team at memorizing the other team's plays.

Accordingly, the whole "b-b-but Lebron memorized other team's plays" nonsense is part of the fraud - it's literally a cog in the fraud-wheel.. Memorizing plays doesn't equal hoops IQ.. Understanding and executing the best brand of ball that gets the most out of teammates is hoops IQ, but unfortunately Lebron is in special ed regarding understanding the best brand of ball and chemistry...

Lebron's low hoops IQ explains why he never had a #1 offense and has low-assist teams, while also having a long list of bad fits and cratering teammates (only elite shooters fit), and zero examples of young player development... So the proof is in the historical record, not the words of biased journalists..

In addition to having zero #1 offenses, low assist teams and no teammate development, Lebron's low IQ is also demonstrated by having a big sample of ball movement teams historically-demolishing him, such as the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic, with multiple historic losses against the Spurs, Nuggets and Warriors - it's a big sample of prime Lebron getting destroyed with plenty of help by many opponents repeatedly, and mostly losing with very low win frequency for his entire career - his "bron-ball" skillset never produced a great team that mostly won over a material period of time, and mostly lost with every team instead.

Otoh, Magic had high hoops IQ because he understood how to NOT CRATER his 3rd option like Worthy or Byron Scott, both of which averaged over 320 ppg... He understood how to have #1 offenses and high-assist teams, and a winning record on the championship level... He was also a true hybrid by dominating the block and also the perimeter - he wasn't just a high-pnr spammer, aka bron-ball, "down-hill" skillset like Lebron (not 5-man basketball).

[dankok8]

Pretty similar on/offs. Second stint Cavs Lebron was really an offensive genius. Lots of times you could seem him calling out defenses before they even got set.

What do you mean by on/offs? What I posted are regular season and postseason rORtg.

Anyways if we're fair and look just at Lebron's prime, Magic has an advantage in the regular season but they are pretty even in the playoffs. And yes the regular season matters and it's a bigger sample but it's hard to come away thinking Magic is way ahead in terms of leading offenses. He may be a bit ahead.

[Phoenix]

Both can be true though. He can be a ball dominator AND be superior to the other ball dominator Lebron.

They can but that's not how 3ball framed his argument. He's never been complimentary of Magics ball dominance and has also discredited him for 'only' being 5-4 in the Finals due to said ball dominance. It's just weird that this somhow doesn't matter because the topic is Lebron. I actually think Lebron may have won in more circumstances than he lost if he actually committed to being a super Magic instead of being a scorer/passer hybrid. In other words being like a 23/12 guy instead of a 27/7 guy where he's playing both main ball handler and primary scorer. He came into the league as a PG and I never expected him to be a 27-30ppg player.

[ShawkFactory]

What do you mean by on/offs? What I posted are regular season and postseason rORtg.

Anyways if we're fair and look just at Lebron's prime, Magic has an advantage in the regular season but they are pretty even in the playoffs. And yes the regular season matters and it's a bigger sample but it's hard to come away thinking Magic is way ahead in terms of leading offenses. He may be a bit ahead.

Sorry, misread that. What I meant was similar uptick in postseason rating. But yes, agreed. On top of having multiple #1 offenses in the postseason, he lead the #2 offense a couple times as well. 09 and 2020 I believe. Top 4-5 almost every year after 08 as well.

[StrongLurk]

Thread Cliffs:

Lebron is better than Magic.

[3ba11]

Unlike Magic, Curry, Duncan and many others, Lebron doesn't know how to not crater his 3rd option, which equals low IQ.

It's also low IQ to impose spot-up roles so young players never develop, thereby requiring ready-made stars

It's also low IQ to cause lower teammate assists via spot-up roles, so the team has low assists and can't compete against high-assist teams like the Nuggets, Spurs, Mavs, Warriors and Magic - Lebron's ball-dominance has a lottery record against these ball movement teams despite being in his prime with #1 seeds, big 3 super-teams, or AD leading both sides of the ball.

Lebron is simply a low-IQ player with a simpleton "down-hill" skillset that gets demolished by good, 5-man basketball - his weak brand of ball and chemistry is forced to hand-pick favored talent, such as preseason favorites for 6 straight years (11-16' and 20-21') - yet mostly lost each year... This is all very low IQ, but unfortunately, fans have been lied to - the lie is that a player who cannot produce great teams and produces weak chemistry/perennial losers with every cast is actually a goat candidate.... It's one of the biggest frauds ever... (a player that catastrophically-loses every year is treated as if he wins every year, while unprecedented losses such as 4 straight 4th quarter chokes in the WCF are treated like titles or accomplishments).