Not only was Jordan more skilled than Lebron, but more athletic

[Walk on Water]

People always wanna say Lebron is the biggest, fastest, most powerful dude. Even that is not true at all. Jordan had a 4.3 40 yard dash. Lebron had a 4.6 40 yard dash.

Jordan had a 48 inch vertical leap. Lebron had a 44 inch vertical leap. Plus, Jordan hung in the air.

Lebron may be bigger, but it doesn't matter because he never used his size to post up. Jordan did. Lebron looks bigger, but that's just looks. He can't use it. Jordan used his size better and was a better offensive rebounder too.

Even if you don't believe that Jordan ran a 4.3, it still doesn't matter. That's because Jordan had a quicker first step, better agility, was quicker and could stop and go much better. Plus he had better endurance and played everyday. Lebron is athletic but is more clunky and not as smooth in the way he moves.

I remember Lebron when he came up in 2003. Yes he was always good. But the media kept on trying to force things about him that aren't true. He's not more athletic than Jordan. Never looked it to me.

And if the question becomes who was the better basketball player, anyone with a brain knows it was Michael Jordan. He's the greatest player to ever play. Him and Kareeem, Wilt, etc..

[iamgine]

Wow! Amazing!

[Im Still Ballin]

Depends on how you define athleticism and what components of it you value more than others.

Who's more athletic? A 280-pound man with poor lateral movement, a 4.40 forty, and a 40" vertical or a 225-pound man with exceptional lateral movement, a 4.40 forty, and 40" vertical?

[tpols]

Eh... I don't know about that. The game tape shows when Lebron gets a head of steam he was faster. MJ didn't even really seem that fast in the open court eye test wise to me.

There's a big difference between a 40 yard dash on a football field and what speed you can reach dribbling a ball on a basketball court. Westbrook is probably also 0ne of the fastest guys I've seen and I know his combine numbers didn't reflect it.

[Phoenix]

Jordan was faster out of the triple threat and to this day had a legendary first step. Lebrons speed is more momentum-based, a controlled freight train. You watch him in an open court setting where he starts off from one end and starts sprinting to the other. His first step isn't elite so he needs more screens and picks to shake off rhe defender.

[ShawkFactory]

People always wanna say Lebron is the biggest, fastest, most powerful dude. Even that is not true at all. Jordan had a 4.3 40 yard dash. Lebron had a 4.6 40 yard dash.

Jordan had a 48 inch vertical leap. Lebron had a 44 inch vertical leap. Plus, Jordan hung in the air.

Lebron may be bigger, but it doesn't matter because he never used his size to post up. Jordan did. Lebron looks bigger, but that's just looks. He can't use it. Jordan used his size better and was a better offensive rebounder too.

Even if you don't believe that Jordan ran a 4.3, it still doesn't matter. That's because Jordan had a quicker first step, better agility, was quicker and could stop and go much better. Plus he had better endurance and played everyday. Lebron is athletic but is more clunky and not as smooth in the way he moves.

I remember Lebron when he came up in 2003. Yes he was always good. But the media kept on trying to force things about him that aren't true. He's not more athletic than Jordan. Never looked it to me.

And if the question becomes who was the better basketball player, anyone with a brain knows it was Michael Jordan. He's the greatest player to ever play. Him and Kareeem, Wilt, etc..

Well yea he was like 3 inches shorter and 40 pounds lighter. Physics tell you that he's going to be able to stop and start quicker. You have to consider what they are respectively capable of doing at their size.

Calvin Johnson couldn't get out of his breaks as quickly as an Antonio Brown or Marvin Harrison. But nobody that was 6'5 240 could remotely move like Megatron.

In the same vein, almost nobody that's ever been Lebron's size had the speed, leaping, coordination and body control that he had.

[3ba11]

https://www.nfl.com/photos/top-11-fastest-40-yard-dash-runs-0ap3000000917865

^^^ According to NFL.com, there have been 11 NFL players since 2013 that ran a 4.3 forty or less, and all of them weigh between 160-200 pounds, except 1 guy is 223 pounds (6'4").. Usain Bolt is also 6'5" and a slender 207 pounds, so all of this matches MJ's physique - the idea that a 250-280 pound guy like Lebron can run anything faster than the 4.6 to 4.8 range is completely absurd, and anyone who knows anything is aware of this.. People just think Lebron is faster because it looks fast and momentus for such a big guy to even run a 4.7'ish speed... I can't find the clips right now, but there are clips of Gil's Arena and other podcasts with intelligent people laughing at the ignoramus that suggests Lebron can run a 4.4.

[tpols]

https://www.nfl.com/photos/top-11-fastest-40-yard-dash-runs-0ap3000000917865

^^^ According to NFL.com, there have been 11 NFL players in history that ran a 4.3 forty or less, and all of them weigh between 160-200 pounds, except 1 guy is 223 pounds (6'4").. Usain Bolt is also 6'5" and a slender 207 pounds, so all of this exactly matches MJ's physique - the idea that a 250-280 pound guy like Lebron can run anything faster than a 4.6 is completely absurd, and anyone who knows anything is aware of this.. I can't find the clips right now, but there are clips of Gil's Arena and other podcasts with intelligent people laughing at the ignoramus that suggests Lebron can run a 4.4.


p=mv though and Lebrons mass more than makes up for the velocity difference. He was a more robust athlete than MJ. What he lacked was the relative sociopathic borderline psychopathic competitor mentality and fine motor movement with regards to shooting and maneuvering foot work wise. Jordan manifested success through his dark mind.

[3ba11]

p=mv though and Lebrons mass more than makes up for the velocity difference. He was a more robust athlete than MJ. What he lacked was the relative sociopathic borderline psychopathic competitor mentality and fine motor movement with regards to shooting and maneuvering foot work wise.


No.. It's humanely impossible for someone Lebron's height and weight to run anything faster than about 4.6 to 4.8, which is why there is no record of anyone that big running that fast.. Show me where anyone that big ran that fast, even in track and field athletes or football players - it's never happened... People just think Lebron is faster because it looks fast and momentus for such a big guy to even run a 4.7'ish speed... But Jordan had goat-level speed and made everyone look slow - the fastest player 6'5" or taller in NBA history, and he's in the 99th percentile among 6'4" guys.

[tpols]

If you watch Usain bolts record breaking 100m sprint, he was bigger than 90% of the fellow sprinters. By a lot in some cases. And he was losing the 1st 20 yards. But once he gained steam...? It was a wrap. The video is on YouTube.

[Carbine]

A 340lb dlineman ran in the 4.7s a couple years ago.

I have no doubt Lebron is approaching 4.4 something. He won the physical lottery, guys like that aren't "slow" especially when we seen him be in a totally different gear than his professional contemporaries in the open floor.

To my eye he's faster in the open floor than Allen Iverson who was known for his speed in football as a quarterback.

[ShawkFactory]

No.. It's humanely impossible for someone Lebron's height and weight to run anything faster than about 4.6 to 4.8, which is why there is no record of anyone that big running that fast.. Show me where anyone that big ran that fast, even in track and field athletes or football players - it's never happened... People just think Lebron is faster because it looks fast and momentus for such a big guy to even run a 4.7'ish speed... But Jordan had goat-level speed and made everyone look slow - the fastest player 6'5" or taller in NBA history, and he's in the 99th percentile among 6'4" guys.

You are mistaking speed for acceleration. Yes, it would be nearly if not completely impossible for someone who is 6'8 and weighs 260 pounds to run a 4.4. But that certainly doesn't mean that the top end speed of said guy can't match a person who can run a 4.4. They just physically don't have the ability to get off the line as quickly, which is obviously (or maybe not to you?) a huge part of such a short sprint.

[3ba11]

Anyone that played ball knows that the bigs are last in all the sprints, which is why you never see video of Lebron winning sprints in practice and you never hear of Shumpert saying "I was so embarrassed because a big guy was killing everyone in sprints"... You never hear that because it never happened..

Otoh, there's plenty of video of Jordan winning sprints because he was the shorter, quicker guys that always win that stuff in practice.. This is why there's video of NBA players laughing at some journalist that tried to suggest the crap you non-players are suggesting here about Lebron - that a big, bumbling dude can win a sprint against guys like MJ, Ja Morant, Westbrook, Rose or Wall - it's ABSURD guys... Stop believing so much TV!!! smh.. this is amazing.

[sdot_thadon]

Jordan was faster out of the triple threat and to this day had a legendary first step. Lebrons speed is more momentum-based, a controlled freight train. You watch him in an open court setting where he starts off from one end and starts sprinting to the other. His first step isn't elite so he needs more screens and picks to shake off rhe defender.

This, however I will add that young Lebron could blow by guys with a live dribble from the perimeter almost any given moment without fancy dribbles. So at some point his 1st step was closer to that elite level. Perhaps it waned as he bulked up and his body matured.

[ShawkFactory]

Anyone that played ball knows that the bigs are last in all the sprints, which is why you never see video of Lebron winning sprints in practice and you never hear of Shumpert saying "I was so embarrassed because a big guy was killing everyone in sprints"... You never hear that because it never happened..

Otoh, there's plenty of video of Jordan winning sprints because he was the shorter, quicker guys that always win that stuff in practice.. This is why there's video of NBA players laughing at some journalist that tried to suggest the crap you non-players are suggesting here about Lebron - that a big, bumbling dude can win a sprint against guys like MJ, Ja Morant, Westbrook, Rose or Wall - it's ABSURD guys... Stop believing so much TV!!! smh.. this is amazing.

THIS is what we're going with? :lol

[3ba11]

THIS is what we're going with? :lol


if Lebron was faster than his teammates, then JR Smith, Shumpert, Snow, and Mo would say that he was

but i guarantee you that all those guys murdered him in sprints in practice.. and it was no big deal because that's standard in basketball for the shorter and skinnier dudes to destroy the bigs in practice sprints, suicides, sweet 16's or any kind of sprint that they have in practices.

but carry on believing journalism majors that you watch on TV.. it's HILARIOUS.. carry on... i have my popcorn for the next misguided statement to come off that keyboard of yours

[sdot_thadon]

if Lebron was faster than his teammates, then JR Smith, Shumpert, Snow, and Mo would say that he was

but i guarantee you that all those guys murdered him in sprints in practice.. and it was no big deal because that's standard in basketball for the shorter and skinnier dudes to destroy the bigs in practice sprints, suicides, sweet 16's or any kind of sprint that they have in practices.

but carry on believing journalism majors that you watch on TV.. it's HILARIOUS.. carry on... i have my popcorn for the next misguided statement to come off that keyboard of yours

Oh yeah we really need a clip of Boobie Gibson saying. Lebron was faster than Mj that'll do it lolol.

[ShawkFactory]

if Lebron was faster than his teammates, then JR Smith, Shumpert, Snow, and Mo would say that he was

but i guarantee you that all those guys murdered him in sprints in practice.. and it was no big deal because that's standard in basketball for the shorter and skinnier dudes to destroy the bigs in practice sprints, suicides, sweet 16's or any kind of sprint that they have in practices.

but carry on believing journalism majors that you watch on TV.. it's HILARIOUS.. carry on... i have my popcorn for the next misguided statement to come off that keyboard of yours

It's always funny to me how incredible you are at taking what could be a reasonable point and backing said point up so terribly :lol

[sdot_thadon]

It's always funny to me how incredible you are at taking what could be a reasonable point and backing said point up so terribly :lol

Apparently that's his super power, converting decent arguments into window licking clown shows.

[3ba11]

Oh yeah we really need a clip of Boobie Gibson saying. Lebron was faster than Mj that'll do it lolol.


Usain Bolt ran a 4.22 forty.

So in your eyes, someone that weighs 50 to 100 pounds more than Bolt can run within a 2 to 3 tenths of a second as fast.. Wow, I know you HATED physics class in school.. Just could never get it I bet huh?

You guys would probably think that a video of Shaq sprinting as fast as he can barreling down court is pretty fast too - I bet he can get around a 4.6 or 4.7 for sure, don't you think?

[sdot_thadon]

Usain Bolt ran a 4.22 forty.

So in your eyes, someone that weighs 50 to 100 pounds more than Bolt can run within a 2 to 3 tenths of a second as fast.. Wow, I know you HATED physics class in school.. Just could never get it I bet huh?

You guys would probably think that a video of Shaq sprinting as fast as he can barreling down court is pretty fast too - I bet he can get around a 4.7 or 4.8 for sure, don't you think?

This is only relevant if you think Mj was anywhere close to as fast as Bolt.....:yaohappy:

Wait don't tell me you think..........:biggums:

[3ba11]

This is only relevant if you think Mj was anywhere close to as fast as Bolt.....:yaohappy:

Wait don't tell me you think..........:biggums:


The physiology of all the fastest guys in the history of the world (including Bolt) suggests that MJ is much faster than Lebron, and so are Shumpert, JR Smith, and at least 20% of the league or maybe much more.

You guys simply have no clue because you're listening to journalism majors tell you about sports, rather than your own experience playing with and against the very players we're discussing.

[sdot_thadon]

The physiology of all the fastest guys in the history of the world (including Bolt) suggests that MJ is much faster than Lebron, and so are Shumpert, JR Smith, and at least 20% of the league or maybe much more.

You guys simply have no clue because you're listening to journalism majors tell you about sports, rather than your own experience playing with and against the very players we're discussing.

We have video of his games. He rarely showed the open court speed lebron has displayed in his prime years. I'd say Mike was far quicker and shiftier, but i wouldn't say he was clearly faster, just haven't seen anything to suggest it. Mjs speed stood out in an era where elite athleticism was rare, Lebron stood out in the era where role players in some cases are even elite athletes.

[3ba11]

but i wouldn't say he was clearly faster, just haven't seen anything to suggest it.





MJ had a 4.3 forty, or at least a 4.4, while there's never been a 250 to 280 pound man run that fast

That's how we know that MJ was faster even without the obvious eye test that shows guys like Rose, MJ, Westbrook or Ja Morant being much faster than Lebron - this is the level of speed that Jordan was on - similar to Wade, Wall, Westbrook, etc - that was Jordan's speed but for some reason Lebron fans ignore this fact and pretend it isn't true..

Vernon Maxwell, Pippen, Isiah, and all his peers state that Jordan was the fastest, while JR Smith, Shumpert and none of Lebron's minions say that Lebron was faster than them or beating them in all the sprints.. Lebron is a bulky, bumbling klutz compared to MJ and you guys are just enamored with "chasedown blocks"... If Kenyon Martin or something had made it his mission to get chase-down blocks, you guys would be saying "lebron is the fastest, except for maybe kenyon".. So I'm afraid you chaps are simpletons that understand the game at a very very low level, smh

[ShawkFactory]

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38 at 250 pounds.

[StrongLurk]

Lebron is the best basketball athlete of all time.

[3ba11]

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38 at 250 pounds.


If the only 250 pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is a 6'3", how in the hell is a 6'9" guy going to run that?.. You think Lebron is as fast as the 6'3" Vernon Davis?.. I hope you can see that you made my point.

[3ba11]

Vernon Davis ran a 4.38 at 250 pounds.


If the only 250 pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is a 6'3", how in the hell is a 6'9" guy going to run that?.. You think Lebron is as fast as the 6'3" Vernon Davis?.. I hope you can see that you made my point.. Lebron probably runs a 4.7 or so

Again, you guys are just enamored by the chase-downs... If some other guy focused on chase-downs, you guys would have threads saying how fast they were.

[ShawkFactory]

If the only 250 pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is a 6'3", how in the hell is a 6'9" guy going to run that?.. You think Lebron is as fast as the 6'3" Vernon Davis?.. I hope you can see that you made my point.. Lebron probably runs a 4.7 or so

Again, you guys are just enamored by the chase-downs... If some other guy focused on chase-downs, you guys would have threads saying how fast they were.

Right now? Sure. Pretty impressive for a 40-year-old.

In 2006? Yea closer to 4.4

[3ba11]

Right now? Sure. Pretty impressive for a 40-year-old.

In 2006? Yea closer to 4.4


If Vernon Davis was closer to 6'9", then I might agree with you.. But given that the only 250-pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is only a 6'3" guy, it's impossible that a 6'9" guy is anywhere near... But I could go with 4.6 for peak Bron in 2009.

[Carbine]

There was a white tight end last year 6'8 255 that ran 4.55 which are accurate measurements because they weighed and measured a day before at the combine before the 40.

It's not unreasonable whatsoever to think Lebron freakin James is faster than that. They are basically identical height and weight when Lebron was in his peak.

[ShawkFactory]

If Vernon Davis was closer to 6'9", then I might agree with you.. But given that the only 250-pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is only a 6'3" guy, it's impossible that a 6'9" guy is anywhere near... But I could go with 4.6 for peak Bron in 2009.

Well no...he's just one I mentioned off the top of my head. It's happened plenty of times. 6'5 255 pound Odafe Oweh ran a 4.36 a couple years ago. 6'6 260 Montrez Sweat ran a 4.41. There are others.

But fine..4.55-4.60. That is pretty incredible for a 6'9 250-260-pound dude.

40 time isn't always indicative of game speed either. Some guys accelerate way better relative to others from standing rather than a sprint position. I'd imagine that would particularly be true for a fast guy who is 6'9, yea?

[Full Court]

Ya'll are kind of arguing apples and oranges. Completely different body types, and thus different kinds of athleticism.

Kind of like who's more athletic: Shaq or Morant?

[sdot_thadon]

If Vernon Davis was closer to 6'9", then I might agree with you.. But given that the only 250-pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is only a 6'3" guy, it's impossible that a 6'9" guy is anywhere near... But I could go with 4.6 for peak Bron in 2009.

Wilt was said to run a 4.6 in his prime at 7"1 and his rookie weight was 258 so who knows what he weighed in his prime. That flys completely in the face of your thoughts on what's possible at what weight and weight.

[Im Still Ballin]

Tony Mandarich ran a 4.6 at like 330 pounds or something. Granted, he was juiced to the heavens...

https://i.redd.it/dce1yda1bysd1.jpeg

[ShawkFactory]

Ya'll are kind of arguing apples and oranges. Completely different body types, and thus different kinds of athleticism.

Kind of like who's more athletic: Shaq or Morant?

This was my original point.

[Wardell Curry]

During LeBron's first stint in Cleveland I'm not sure I've ever seen someone move faster in a full court sprint. He looked like a video game.

[Walk on Water]

Lebron is the best basketball athlete of all time.


Well I just kinda proved that that’s not really true..

[Walk on Water]

Ya'll are kind of arguing apples and oranges. Completely different body types, and thus different kinds of athleticism.

Kind of like who's more athletic: Shaq or Morant?



But that’s not my point. LeBron fans act like Jordan was nowhere near him. And that’s not true.

[999Guy]

https://www.nfl.com/photos/top-11-fastest-40-yard-dash-runs-0ap3000000917865

^^^ According to NFL.com, there have been 11 NFL players since 2013 that ran a 4.3 forty or less, and all of them weigh between 160-200 pounds, except 1 guy is 223 pounds (6'4").. Usain Bolt is also 6'5" and a slender 207 pounds, so all of this matches MJ's physique - the idea that a 250-280 pound guy like Lebron can run anything faster than the 4.6 to 4.8 range is completely absurd, and anyone who knows anything is aware of this.. People just think Lebron is faster because it looks fast and momentus for such a big guy to even run a 4.7'ish speed... I can't find the clips right now, but there are clips of Gil's Arena and other podcasts with intelligent people laughing at the ignoramus that suggests Lebron can run a 4.4.

Jerry Rice had some shitty 40 time but his strides once he got past 20 yards was better than anybody's.

I think LeBron has a similar thing going. Visibly just a crazy top speed. A 40 time won't perfectly capture it.

[ShawkFactory]

Jerry Rice had some shitty 40 time but his strides once he got past 20 yards was better than anybody's.

I think LeBron has a similar thing going. Visibly just a crazy top speed. A 40 time won't perfectly capture it.

It's not even just 20 yards. Sometimes its only 5-10 yards. And you're right, someone being slower in the first 5-10 yards is absolutely the difference between a 4.5 and a 4.3.

[3ba11]

There was a white tight end last year 6'8 255 that ran 4.55 which are accurate measurements because they weighed and measured a day before at the combine before the 40.

It's not unreasonable whatsoever to think Lebron freakin James is faster than that. They are basically identical height and weight when Lebron was in his peak.


Great so maybe Lebron can run a 4.65.

I rest my case

The sport of football, along with it's training and players have always been close to track and field in speed and training, while hoopers are nowhere near.... Jordan's 4.3 for a hooper is unheard of, but it makes sense when you consider that his physique is the closest to Usain Bolt.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Great so maybe Lebron can run a 4.65.

I rest my case

The sport of football, along with it's training and players have always been close to track and field in speed and training, while hoopers are nowhere near.... Jordan's 4.3 for a hooper is unheard of, but it makes sense when you consider that his physique is the closest to Usain Bolt.

Jordan never ran a 4.3

He ran a 4.5-4.6 that amateurs holding a watch timed out at 4.4

But hey man, there's this bridge that if you buy could change your life. You interested?

[3ba11]

Jordan never ran a 4.3

He ran a 4.5-4.6 that amateurs holding a watch timed out at 4.4

But hey man, there's this bridge... could change your life. You interested?



The Dallas-Boston Finals was considered a toss-up by the media:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/-HbEcc.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/Oxj9Ce.gif



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/NUXzPg.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/fM9Xai.gif




Yet I predicted the Celtics in 5 games exactly (just google "celtics in 5 3ba11 insidehoops")...

And the 2023 Lakers were the hottest team entering the playoffs, so the media thought it was easy street after they swept the first 2 round of the playoffs, but I was the only one on this forum to predict a Denver SWEEP - listen to Broussard and Cowherd say they can TASTE bron's 5th chip and predict the Lakers over Denver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiXcSTJ9CU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6RM-RbCaA4&t=01m30s


And of course people CITED my logic about ball-dominance vs ball movement to predict a Luka loss to Curry in 2022 (google "Luka conundrum 90sgoat insidehoops"), while I predicted the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in 2024... So my predictions for the last 3 years are better than 97% of posters even though I don't watch.

[PistonsFan#21]

If Vernon Davis was closer to 6'9", then I might agree with you.. But given that the only 250-pound guy in the world that can run a 4.4 is only a 6'3" guy, it's impossible that a 6'9" guy is anywhere near... But I could go with 4.6 for peak Bron in 2009.

Why would a shorter guy weighing the same as the taller guy have an advantage in a sprint?

Would Usain Bolt be faster if he was 5'11 205lbs instead of 6'5 205lbs ?

[Wardell Curry]

The Dallas-Boston Finals was considered a toss-up by the media:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/-HbEcc.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/Oxj9Ce.gif



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/NUXzPg.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/fM9Xai.gif




Yet I predicted the Celtics in 5 games exactly (just google "celtics in 5 3ba11 insidehoops")...

And the 2023 Lakers were the hottest team entering the playoffs, so the media thought it was easy street after they swept the first 2 round of the playoffs, but I was the only one on this forum to predict a Denver SWEEP - listen to Broussard and Cowherd say they can TASTE bron's 5th chip and predict the Lakers over Denver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiXcSTJ9CU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6RM-RbCaA4&t=01m30s


And of course people CITED my logic about ball-dominance vs ball movement to predict a Luka loss to Curry in 2022 (google "Luka conundrum 90sgoat insidehoops"), while I predicted the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in 2024... So my predictions for the last 3 years are better than 97% of posters even though I don't watch.

It's not about ball dominance in these cases you utter retard. They lost to better teams period.

[3ba11]

It's not about ball dominance in these cases you utter retard. They lost to better teams period.


There's a correlation between ball-dominance and inferior teams, or low ball movement/low-assist teams and inferior teams.

Luka's ball-dominance got destroyed by the ball movement of the Celtics, while Lebron's ball-dominance gets destroyed repeatedly by the ball movement of the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic.

So there's a clear trend of ball-dominance and inferior teams.

Ultimately, there have only been a few high-scoring ball-dominators in history - these are super-low ball movement players like Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden and SGA - they all produce low-assist teams that perennially-lose and are never "great".. Otoh, expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs like Curry, MJ or Duncan can produce high team assists and "great" teams that mostly win for material periods of time, such as a 5-year period.

So the Finals was a foregone conclusions, especially since there were no other major factors (like inexperience) to interfere with rule that ball-movement > ball-domination.

[SouBeachTalents]

The Dallas-Boston Finals was considered a toss-up by the media:




https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/-HbEcc.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/Oxj9Ce.gif



https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/NUXzPg.gif


https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-05-2024/fM9Xai.gif




Yet I predicted the Celtics in 5 games exactly (just google "celtics in 5 3ba11 insidehoops")...

And the 2023 Lakers were the hottest team entering the playoffs, so the media thought it was easy street after they swept the first 2 round of the playoffs, but I was the only one on this forum to predict a Denver SWEEP - listen to Broussard and Cowherd say they can TASTE bron's 5th chip and predict the Lakers over Denver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auiXcSTJ9CU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6RM-RbCaA4&t=01m30s


And of course people CITED my logic about ball-dominance vs ball movement to predict a Luka loss to Curry in 2022 (google "Luka conundrum 90sgoat insidehoops"), while I predicted the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in 2024... So my predictions for the last 3 years are better than 97% of posters even though I don't watch.
Damn yo, you predicted a 64 win team would beat a 50 win one? You a fvcking genius :applause:

And I guess saying Curry was just a 3 point shooter who needed KD to win, Giannis was a Pippen level bum, Oubre > Klay, and that the Suns were going to win the title last year all fall into that very narrow 3% you got wrong.

And did his dumbass say the Lakers swept through the first 2 rounds in 2023? Totally fvcking cluess lol

[3ba11]

Damn yo, you predicted a 64 win team would beat a 50 win one? You a fvcking genius :applause:

And I guess saying Curry was just a 3 point shooter who needed KD to win, Giannis was a Pippen level bum, Oubre > Klay, and that the Suns were going to win the title last year all fall into that very narrow 3% you got wrong.

And did his dumbass say the Lakers swept through the first 2 rounds in 2023? Totally fvcking cluess lol


The Lakers were the hottest team in the league entering the 2023 Playoffs and the entire media predicted they would beat the Nuggets, yet I was the only person on this forum to predict a nuggets SWEEP victory.. A stunning prediction.

Then I correctly predicted Celtics in 5 games for the 24' Finals, while also predicting that the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in the WCF... Then I predicted Luka would lose to Curry in 2022 (ball movement > ball-domination)

this is all well-documented and googleable - let me know if you need links to all threads..

[SouBeachTalents]

The Lakers were the hottest team in the league entering the 2023 Playoffs and the entire media predicted they would beat the Nuggets, yet I was the only person on this forum to predict a nuggets SWEEP victory.. A stunning prediction.

Then I correctly predicted Celtics in 5 games for the 24' Finals, while also predicting that the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in the WCF... Then I predicted Luka would lose to Curry in 2022 (ball movement > ball-domination)

this is all well-documented and googleable - let me know if you need links to all threads..
Yes, fetch me the links bitch.

[3ba11]

Yes, fetch me the links bitch.


Get the Kleenex ready to wipe those tears bitch:


2024 Finals - "Celtics in 5" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517717-Celtics-in-5)

2024 WCF - "Ant crusin for a brusin" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517571-Ant-is-crusin-for-a-bruisin)

2023 WCF - "Nuggets in 5 or sweep" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511799-Denver-in-5-or-sweep/page7)

2022 WCF - "Luka has a conundrum" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504263-Luka-s-conundrum-is-the-same-as-Lebron-s-conundrum-and-the-solution-is-the-same) (fellow poster cites me and my logic in the OP to predict that Luka will lose to Curry)



^^^ Again, that's better predictions that 97% of the posters on this site, and I don't watch the games.. It's all goat feel for the game from playing D1 and being a professional analyst in M&A - the combination of the 2 provides goat insight I'm afraid young lad

[SouBeachTalents]

Get the Kleenex ready to wipe those tears bitch:


2024 Finals - "Celtics in 5" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517717-Celtics-in-5)

2024 WCF - "Ant crusin for a brusin" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517571-Ant-is-crusin-for-a-bruisin)

2023 WCF - "Nuggets in 5 or sweep" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511799-Denver-in-5-or-sweep/page7)

2022 WCF - "Luka has a conundrum" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504263-Luka-s-conundrum-is-the-same-as-Lebron-s-conundrum-and-the-solution-is-the-same) (fellow poster cites me and my logic in the OP to predict that Luka will lose to Curry)



^^^ Again, that's better predictions that 97% of the posters on this site, and I don't watch the games.. It's all goat feel for the game from playing D1 and being a professional analyst in M&A - the combination of the 2 provides goat insight I'm afraid young lad
That's a good boy.

[3ba11]

That's a good boy.


Wow.. That's all you have isn't it

[Wardell Curry]

There's a correlation between ball-dominance and inferior teams, or low ball movement/low-assist teams and inferior teams.

Luka's ball-dominance got destroyed by the ball movement of the Celtics, while Lebron's ball-dominance gets destroyed repeatedly by the ball movement of the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs or Magic.

So there's a clear trend of ball-dominance and inferior teams.

Ultimately, there have only been a few high-scoring ball-dominators in history - these are super-low ball movement players like Lebron, Luka, Westbrook, Harden and SGA - they all produce low-assist teams that perennially-lose and are never "great".. Otoh, expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs like Curry, MJ or Duncan can produce high team assists and "great" teams that mostly win for material periods of time, such as a 5-year period.

So the Finals was a foregone conclusions, especially since there were no other major factors (like inexperience) to interfere with rule that ball-movement > ball-domination.

Switch Luka and Tatum. Which team wins the Finals? Don't lie, bitch. I know you will though.

[ILLsmak]

Get the Kleenex ready to wipe those tears bitch:


2024 Finals - "Celtics in 5" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517717-Celtics-in-5)

2024 WCF - "Ant crusin for a brusin" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517571-Ant-is-crusin-for-a-bruisin)

2023 WCF - "Nuggets in 5 or sweep" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511799-Denver-in-5-or-sweep/page7)

2022 WCF - "Luka has a conundrum" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504263-Luka-s-conundrum-is-the-same-as-Lebron-s-conundrum-and-the-solution-is-the-same) (fellow poster cites me and my logic in the OP to predict that Luka will lose to Curry)



^^^ Again, that's better predictions that 97% of the posters on this site, and I don't watch the games.. It's all goat feel for the game from playing D1 and being a professional analyst in M&A - the combination of the 2 provides goat insight I'm afraid young lad

https://youtu.be/ibOlUeUmtnI?si=tj5IJtSLeJKZpAZN&t=56

haha "I know what u have and where ya live"


-Smak

[3ba11]

Switch Luka and Tatum. Which team wins the Finals? Don't lie, bitch. I know you will though.


It isn't about switching players suddenly, since one skillset can develop great chemistry and dominant teams over time, while the other can't - you act like Tatum just woke up with this Celtics team - it took years for him to develop that team, so it's a good thing that his skillset of expert jumpshooting and assisted buckets (off-ball) allows great ball movement, fits and chemistry development..

Otoh, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka impose spot-up roles, so they never develop great chemistry like the Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs, Dirk's Mavs, 09' Magic or these Celtics - these ball movement teams destroy the ball-dominance of Luka and Lebron over a large sample.

[AlternativeAcc.]

Get the Kleenex ready to wipe those tears bitch:


2024 Finals - "Celtics in 5" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517717-Celtics-in-5)

2024 WCF - "Ant crusin for a brusin" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?517571-Ant-is-crusin-for-a-bruisin)

2023 WCF - "Nuggets in 5 or sweep" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?511799-Denver-in-5-or-sweep/page7)

2022 WCF - "Luka has a conundrum" (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?504263-Luka-s-conundrum-is-the-same-as-Lebron-s-conundrum-and-the-solution-is-the-same) (fellow poster cites me and my logic in the OP to predict that Luka will lose to Curry)



^^^ Again, that's better predictions that 97% of the posters on this site, and I don't watch the games.. It's all goat feel for the game from playing D1 and being a professional analyst in M&A - the combination of the 2 provides goat insight I'm afraid young lad

You picked favorites and incorrectly predicted Ant would make the finals... you said he would be humbled in the finals not the 2nd round

And saying a 22 year old player will be humbled isn't a prediction to begin with. Every young player in history has been humbled at some point.

Are u that desperate for approval you lie about your own predictions?

[ShawkFactory]

It isn't about switching players suddenly, since one skillset can develop great chemistry and dominant teams over time, while the other can't - you act like Tatum just woke up with this Celtics team - it took years for him to develop that team, so it's a good thing that his skillset of expert jumpshooting and assisted buckets (off-ball) allows great ball movement, fits and chemistry development..

Otoh, high-scoring ball-dominators like Lebron and Luka impose spot-up roles, so they never develop great chemistry like the Nuggets, Warriors, Spurs, Dirk's Mavs, 09' Magic or these Celtics - these ball movement teams destroy the ball-dominance of Luka and Lebron over a large sample.

Hmm. Then I guess it would surprise you that the Celtics took and made the most spot up 3s of any team in the league last year by a large margin.

May also surprise you that the Lakers were way higher on the team assist rankings than the Celtics.

[Full Court]

The Lakers were the hottest team in the league entering the 2023 Playoffs and the entire media predicted they would beat the Nuggets, yet I was the only person on this forum to predict a nuggets SWEEP victory.. A stunning prediction.

Then I correctly predicted Celtics in 5 games for the 24' Finals, while also predicting that the red-hot Ant would lose to Luka in the WCF... Then I predicted Luka would lose to Curry in 2022 (ball movement > ball-domination)

this is all well-documented and googleable - let me know if you need links to all threads..

This is true. Give credit where it's due. 3ball nailed this one. Even I thought the Lakers were going to win that series.

[3ba11]

itt we confirm that MJ was a better combo-leaper and his 4.3 speed is obviously a lot better than Lebron could ever do - the best itt shows Lebron matching the fastest football player at his weight (football is a faster sport), and this speed was 4.55, except and this guy was 6 inches shorter than Lebron and probably 20-30 pounds lighter (250 vs 280 potentially).

[3ba11]

Hmm. Then I guess it would surprise you that the Celtics took and made the most spot up 3s of any team in the league last year by a large margin.

May also surprise you that the Lakers were way higher on the team assist rankings than the Celtics.


It's funny that you guys even mention the Lakers because they haven't developed great chemistry is 6 years now!!.. This adds to previous tenures of bad chemistry, and therefore provides a big sample to show that Lebron cannot develop great chemistry - this is further supported by him producing perennial losers with every team instead of great teams that mostly win for a material stretch of time (like 5 years).

So again, unlike the teams of expert jumpshooters (Tatum), or fundamental bigs (Jokic), high-scoring point guards aka "ball-dominators" like Lebron, Luka, SGA, Harden and Westbrook never produced great chemistry or dominant teams that ran the table in the playoffs... It's a skillset thing, so since ball-dominators cannot produce dominant teams, we know that Luka could never produce a dominant team with great chemistry like these Celtics..

In addition to never producing dominant playoff teams, ball-dominators never produce "great" teams that mostly won over a material period, which contrasts with expert jumpshooters (Curry, MJ) or fundamental bigs (Duncan, Kareem)... Again, this is a skillset thing, where ball-dominators impose spot-up roles and therefore weak chemistry/teams, while jumpshooters or bigs allow the ball to move more and have higher-assist teams in general.

Btw, if we just switched Luka and Tatum suddenly, neither team would make the Finals due to the initial cratering of chemistry and adjustment - one or both teams could easily fall off and struggle in perpetuity - it's hard to say - Tatum isn't dominant enough to win with a wide swathe of players like Curry, Kobe, etc, while Luka is a ball-dominator, so he can't have great teams with anyone anyway.

[ShawkFactory]

Hmm. Then I guess it would surprise you that the Celtics took and made the most spot up 3s of any team in the league last year by a large margin.

May also surprise you that the Lakers were way higher on the team assist rankings than the Celtics.

I guess these things were a surprise..

[3ba11]

I guess these things were a surprise..


It seemed like some basic shit that wasn't worth responding to... Ball movement gets more and better spot-ups and WITHOUT ball-domination - everyone touches the ball and then someone shoots a spot-up (5-man basketball), versus a ball-dominator dribbling and then kicking it out to a shooter (1 or 2-man basketball)..

We know that the spot-ups achieved via ball movement will outgun ball-dominant offenses in the playoffs, such as the Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Mavs, Magic or Celtics outgunning Lebron or Luka's ball-dominant offenses - so the historical record tells a clear story of ball-dominators being perennial losers and getting outgunned by ball movement..

It should be noted that 5-man basketball and zippy ball movement wears down defenses and leaves them less capacity for offense, while ball-domination lets a defense rest, so they are relatively fresher to "get hot" on offense.. The Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, etc "get hot" after a while because they get to rest and stay relatively fresh against the ball-domination.. It's called "winning the attrition battle" and "the best defense is a good offense" - these are tenets of all competition, and ball movement abides by them, while ball-dominance fails at them.

[ShawkFactory]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics :lol

[Full Court]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics :lol

3ball actually has a point here. Not all assists are equal, nor does the number of assists necessarily reflect good team ball movement. A lot of times ball dominators will have high assist numbers because they'll dribble out the shot clock and then pass to someone who's going to have to take a quick shot. When it goes in, the passer gets the assist, but it's not a great way to play winning ball. Examples of this are James Harden, Luka Doncic, Trae Young, and Lebron (when he's playing point guard). All three get high assist numbers, but they're many times not GOOD assists. They're just forcing teammates to take quick shots because they used up too much clock.

[3ba11]

Yea…I don’t think you’ve ever watched the Celtics :lol


I don't have to watch because I know what stats to look at:



Assisted Rate (percentage of field goals that were assisted by teammates, aka "off-ball")

2024 TATUM REGULAR SEASON (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/scoring?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular+Season)........ 40%
2024 LUKA'. REGULAR SEASON (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/scoring?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular+Season)........ 22%

2024 TATUM PLAYOFFS (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1628369/scoring?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs).................... 47%
2024 LUKA'. PLAYOFFS (https://www.nba.com/stats/player/1629029/scoring?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Playoffs).................... 17%


So Tatum offers the Celtics two or three times the capacity for ball movement than Luka offers.. When Tatum is going off for 40, the ball is still moving and teammates are assisting him, while Luka's scoring is unassisted and teammates become spot-up shooters, aka "corner dudes".. This yields weaker teams and bad fits with stars like Brunson, Porzingas, Love, Bosh, Ingram, Westbrook, Hughes, Wade, Kuzma, IT, and many more.

[ShawkFactory]

There are other stats that show the Celtics were 17th in assists last year and 24th in passes made per game.

[3ba11]

There are other stats that show the Celtics were 17th in assists last year and 24th in passes made per game.


Tatum's Celtics were 14th and 7th in assists for the last 2 seasons, compared to 19th and 28th for Luka's Mavs.

So your numbers were wrong

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2024.html#all_team_and_opponent
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2024.html#all_team_and_opponent

Again, expert jumpshooters have higher assisted rates, so they allow better ball movement, fits and teams, while ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA and Westbrook cannot have dominant teams that run the table in the playoffs, or great teams that mostly win over a material stretch, like 5 years.

[ShawkFactory]

Tatum's Celtics were 14th and 7th in assists for the last 2 seasons, compared to 19th and 28th for Luka's Mavs.

So your numbers were wrong

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2024.html#all_team_and_opponent
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/DAL/2024.html#all_team_and_opponent

Again, expert jumpshooters have higher assisted rates, so they allow better ball movement, fits and teams, while ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA and Westbrook cannot have dominant teams that run the table in the playoffs, or great teams that mostly win over a material stretch, like 5 years.

My numbers WERE wrong. Boston was 15th. Therefore yours were too.

The Lakers were 7th.

[3ba11]

My numbers WERE wrong. Boston was 15th. Therefore yours were too.

The Lakers were 7th.


Boston was 14th just like I said, and the Lakers were 5th - I provided links, while you're just stating debunked information and incorrect rankings.

And who cares about old Lebron because he isn't the clear-cut top dog on the Lakers anymore and teammates make higher All-NBA than him.. When Lebron was the clear-cut top dog and it was "bron-ball", his teams had low assists nearly every year and his teams average 15th for his career.

History shows that high-scoring point guards, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA, or Westbrook impose spot-up roles and lower teammate assists, so their TEAMS generally have low assists and less ball movement than the teams that beat them (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Celtics), who are led by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.

[ShawkFactory]

Boston was 14th just like I said, and the Lakers were 5th - I provided links, while you're just stating debunked information and incorrect rankings.

And who cares about old Lebron because he isn't the clear-cut top dog on the Lakers anymore and teammates make higher All-NBA than him.. When Lebron was the clear-cut top dog and it was "bron-ball", his teams had low assists nearly every year and his teams average 15th for his career.

History shows that high-scoring point guards, aka ball-dominators like Luka, Lebron, Harden, SGA, or Westbrook impose spot-up roles and lower teammate assists, so their TEAMS generally have low assists and less ball movement than the teams that beat them (Nuggets, Spurs, Warriors, Celtics), who are led by expert jumpshooters or fundamental bigs.

You.

[3ba11]

You.


As soon as the Finals began and everyone saw the Celtics' zippy ball movement, it was clear that the Mavericks ' ball-domination had no chance:



2024 FINALS - Team Assists Per Game

Boston....... 24.2
Mavs ......... 16.8


Similarly, Lebron has massive deficits in team assists for all his playoff losses in the last 10 years.. Deficits in team assists is a hallmark of the high-scoring point guard, aka ball-dominator

[PistonsFan#21]

itt we confirm that MJ was a better combo-leaper and his 4.3 speed is obviously a lot better than Lebron could ever do - the best itt shows Lebron matching the fastest football player at his weight (football is a faster sport), and this speed was 4.55, except and this guy was 6 inches shorter than Lebron and probably 20-30 pounds lighter (250 vs 280 potentially).

Would Jordan be even faster if he was 5'11 210lbs instead of 6'6 210lbs?

[Soundwave]

There hasn't been another athlete quite like Jordan ever since him. Lots of wannabes and lots of guys who can jump high, but the combination of explosive speed + hang time and agility in the air I think is still sadly unseen since 1st 3-peat Jordan (he toned it down for the 2nd 3-peat).

Haven't seen anyone like that since 1993, which kinda sucks. It was like watching poetry in motion. Jordan is a freak case of a guy who probably should have been 5'11 at best, who became 6'6 with a huge wing span and a monstrous vertical leap, but then on top of that the strange ability to move and shift one's body in mid-air, which is just something you don't see a lot of. He retained a lot of "little guy speed" but then was blessed with a freak growth spurt and enormous hands some how.

Lots of guys can jump high, it's not just about jumping high, it's about what you do in the air when you're up there, Jordan was just in a class by himself. Even Kobe who tried desperately to copy every little thing about Jordan didn't have that ability really in the air (Kobe was a very good athlete, but not really 1st 3-peat Jordan like definitely a big gap there). Vince Carter was a tremendous dunker, but he wasn't that either, the rest of these guys ain't it either.

Just being a power dunker is not the same, that's more like being the evolution of Dominique Wilkins, Jordan was a different class.