This one is actually a little tough. Give me a one through four.

[Kblaze8855]

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2410092305080311.jpeg

[Kblaze8855]

Moses is a bit of a curveball To the usual question.

I think most of you who have been here a while I can guess pretty close to the order you would put the other three. I have no idea what you’re gonna do with Moses.

[sdot_thadon]

The further away we get from the 80s the harder time I have knowing what to do with Moses and Doc. I'd say if it's career ranking we go

Timmy
Moses
KG
Dirk

But if we're going by who I'd rather have on my squad it's
Kg
Dirk
Duncan
Moses
:hammerhead:

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan
KG
Dirk
Moses

[dankok8]

Not that hard for me. I could defend this ranking pretty easily. Moses and Dirk are in the same tier.

1. Duncan

2. Garnett

3. Moses
4. Dirk

[Full Court]

1. Duncan

2. Malone

3. Dirk

4. KG

[Patrick Chewing]

1. Moses (great offense and great defense)
2. Timmy (great defense and good offense)
3. Dirk (great offense)
4. KG (good defense and good offense)

[StrongLurk]

Timmy
Moses
Dirk
KG

[SouBeachTalents]

1. Moses (great offense and great defense)
2. Timmy (great defense and good offense)
3. Dirk (great offense)
4. KG (good defense and good offense)
KG didn't have great defense :lol

[Patrick Chewing]

KG didn't have great defense :lol

Read it again

[RRR3]

KG didn't have great defense :lol
This is why he stays in the political forum :lol

[fsvr54]

KG is one of the greatest defensive anchors of all-time

[tpols]

Having watched 3/4 I feel like Dirk was the best out of the group. (can't speak on moses)

His takeover ability was on another level than Duncan or Garnetts.

[ShawkFactory]

Having watched 3/4 I feel like Dirk was the best out of the group. (can't speak on moses)

His takeover ability was on another level than Duncan or Garnetts.

I appreciate this comment like 90% but I don’t think you really watched early Duncan. He was an absolute takeover guy.

No…he wouldn’t give you 40 each night because he was very unselfish. But back in the early 2000s if you needed him he’s doing his thing. Maybe it’s not 40 that game but 25 rebounds. Or 9 assists and locking everything down on the other end. Or sometimes it’s 40 points. He’s doing whatever is needed.

He wasn’t a big man who you needed to let cook because he would still do everything right.

He’s number one here. After that it’s way tougher. Probably would go Moses, Dirk, then KG but could hear arguments otherwise.

[Kblaze8855]

I appreciate this comment like 90% but I don’t think you really watched early Duncan. He was an absolute takeover guy.

No…he wouldn’t give you 40 each night because he was very unselfish. But back in the early 2000s if you needed him he’s doing his thing. Maybe it’s not 40 that game but 25 rebounds. Or 9 assists and locking everything down on the other end. Or sometimes it’s 40 points. He’s doing whatever is needed.

He wasn’t a big man who you needed to let cook because he would still do everything right.

He’s number one here. After that it’s way tougher. Probably would go Moses, Dirk, then KG but could hear arguments otherwise.



https://youtu.be/Mmk0HUlgQBE?si=JOfjbu_cCvZifhOm

Go to like a minute 25 seconds and watch that fourth quarter.

Just over and over same basic spots putting them to ****ing bed.

I watched that game at my stepfathers Mom‘s house with him and some of his old friends who were watching long enough to remember seeing Elgin Baylor play in person. They couldn’t get over how calm and polished he was. They were talking like this was the new Kareem and these were people who watched Kareem in college.

He just embraced the team game and letting everyone flourish and become the best version of themselves around him as he aged and people forgot that for those first maybe six years they would call the same 4 down play and every team would know exactly where he was going and what he was going to do and there was nothing they could do about it.

Tim was a straight takeover kinda scorer who just understood that he wasn’t playing with other worldly offensive talent, and it was better for everyone else to get to hold onto some semblance of their true games and not become lost as nameless members of a supporting cast the way some superstars turn players. Every role player before they came to the league had been stars their entire lives. The spurs let people who couldn’t look off somebody the caliber of Tim Duncan on another team play the way they felt they should.

You weren’t gonna go to the spurs and be a ball hog and act like you’re still in college as the man…but they didn’t ask guys to forget who they were either.

And over time they became so team oriented letting everyone shine people legit felt like he was being carried because his production didn’t match his historical status.

It’s really a lot like Dr. J if you talk to older fans. He was the best in the world or at least the best non center and he came to the NBA and deferred to everyone. Like he didn’t wanna overshadow people.

But now and then he’d just let loose like that 40 point game in the Blazers in the finals and you realize he holds back for the sake of being nice to selfish teammates like World B Free, McGinnis, Kobe’s dad and so on.

All those scorers and he’d let them eat.

Duncan was that way but with like…Patty Mills and Dejuan Blair.

I don’t know how many times I watched a Manu pick and roll to Dejuan Blair Who I think may actually have had no knees by the time he reached the NBA and realize the greatest four of all time is standing there, watching them run it when he could run it himself and score more often.

Manu throwing through the legs of some defender for Blair to get a “Why didn’t he dunk that?” soft layup that would make you remember he had no knees.

Duncan chilling watching the chemistry grow.

We need so many more stars like that but the analytics era might not allow it.

when the numbers show good things happen most often when the best player has the ball the numbers say give that person the ball all the time. But the spurs saw that as evidence everyone else needs to be better. And you can’t snap your fingers and make them better. All you can do is allow them to be the best they can be.

The way they built that franchise to play over 20 years is such a credit to Duncan’s lack of ego after Drob paved the way by stepping back as soon as he saw what they had in Tim.

he would’ve been considered a lot better by some people if he demanded touches that would’ve improved his numbers at the cost of some role player not having the confidence to step into a shot he has taken all his life without having to worry about pissing off his franchise player.

He flat out made the Spurs better by taking over less but people will never credit the abstract nature of that.

[tpols]

I appreciate this comment like 90% but I don’t think you really watched early Duncan. He was an absolute takeover guy.

No…he wouldn’t give you 40 each night because he was very unselfish. But back in the early 2000s if you needed him he’s doing his thing. Maybe it’s not 40 that game but 25 rebounds. Or 9 assists and locking everything down on the other end. Or sometimes it’s 40 points. He’s doing whatever is needed.

He wasn’t a big man who you needed to let cook because he would still do everything right.

He’s number one here. After that it’s way tougher. Probably would go Moses, Dirk, then KG but could hear arguments otherwise.


It's not just about averages. Dirk could string buckets together in a way that it broke the other team. Performances like this.


https://youtu.be/Y0F_4EZ16qo?si=AwkRgloRtU1NpSnZ

Duncan didn't do that^. He was a more in the flow scorer. Not the type to avalanche you, but rather slowly jab away at you.

48 on 15 shots with Ibaka guarding him and help. Winning the title as huge underdogs that year, bigger than Duncan's ever been.

And even when they were in their primes and went H2H Dirk beat the defending champion Duncan led Spurs in 2006 with Josh Howard as his 2nd option while Timmy had Manu Parker Pop and an elite system.

Dirk has decimated too many legends in the playoffs ~ Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc. for me to say he was worse.

[Full Court]

It's not just about averages. Dirk could string buckets together in a way that it broke the other team. Performances like this.


https://youtu.be/Y0F_4EZ16qo?si=AwkRgloRtU1NpSnZ

Duncan didn't do that^. He was a more in the flow scorer. Not the type to avalanche you, but rather slowly jab away at you.

48 on 15 shots with Ibaka guarding him and help. Winning the title as huge underdogs that year, bigger than Duncan's ever been.

And even when they were in their primes and went H2H Dirk beat the defending champion Duncan led Spurs in 2006 with Josh Howard as his 2nd option while Timmy had Manu Parker Pop and an elite system.

Dirk has decimated too many legends in the playoffs ~ Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc. for me to say he was worse.

Yeah, it's a really close call between Malone, Duncan, and Dirk. I feel like KG doesn't quite belong with the other three.

[Kblaze8855]

It's not just about averages. Dirk could string buckets together in a way that it broke the other team. Performances like this.


https://youtu.be/Y0F_4EZ16qo?si=AwkRgloRtU1NpSnZ

Duncan didn't do that^. He was a more in the flow scorer. Not the type to avalanche you, but rather slowly jab away at you.

48 on 15 shots with Ibaka guarding him and help. Winning the title as huge underdogs that year, bigger than Duncan's ever been.

And even when they were in their primes and went H2H Dirk beat the defending champion Duncan led Spurs in 2006 with Josh Howard as his 2nd option while Timmy had Manu Parker Pop and an elite system.

Dirk has decimated too many legends in the playoffs ~ Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Lebron, Durant, etc. for me to say he was worse.


What amused me reading that was remembering that Duncan probably had more of those games vs Dallas than anyone else



https://youtu.be/b3Dn5EqiQTA?si=OPYdeURnp73wptel


He had more than that game 7 in 06 before Manu committed the dumbest foul in history to put Dirk at the line when simply letting him lay it up forces them to foul to prevent the Spurs letting the clock expire.

Dirk and Duncan both ran wild that game and had big plays on both ends and gassed out late and didn’t score in OT.

Tim never lacked for ability to just go drop 40. He just didn’t approach the game that way.

[tpols]

What amused me reading that was remembering that Duncan probably had more of those games vs Dallas than anyone else



https://youtu.be/b3Dn5EqiQTA?si=OPYdeURnp73wptel


He had more than that game 7 in 06 before Manu committed the dumbest foul in history to put Dirk at the line when simply letting him lay it up forces them to foul to prevent the Spurs letting the clock expire.

Dirk and Duncan both ran wild that game and had big plays on both ends and gassed out late and didn’t score in OT.

Tim never lacked for ability to just go drop 40. He just didn’t approach the game that way.


Yea but what does that say about them compared to one another if prime for prime they played to a draw against each other when Duncan's defense supposedly makes him more well rounded and overall better? Which is a lot of peoples argument.

And it wasn't some fluke shit. Dirk regularly outplayed opposing superstars in the playoffs across a big sample size.

[SouBeachTalents]

Yea but what does that say about them compared to one another if prime for prime they played to a draw against each other when Duncan's defense supposedly makes him more well rounded and overall better? Which is a lot of peoples argument.

And it wasn't some fluke shit. Dirk regularly outplayed opposing superstars in the playoffs across a big sample size.
Duncan outscored Dirk in 6 of the 7 games in that series.

[ILLsmak]

1. Kg

Get ****ed.

-Smak

[ShawkFactory]

Not even sure why averages got brought up because I don’t think I really meant that. It was more about who could meaningly score what, and Duncan was a guy who could.

I’ve watched a decent amount of that 06 Mavs/Spurs series in the last couple of years, or at least the close games in the series. Duncan was immediately doubled almost every time he touched the ball and he’d make a decision quickly. If the double didn’t come? Curtains.

That’s the epitome of a go to player to me. Obviously he couldn’t hit jumpers like Dirk but he did everything else.

[iamgine]

1. Duncan
2. Dirk
3. KG
4. Moses

[Kblaze8855]

Yea but what does that say about them compared to one another if prime for prime they played to a draw against each other when Duncan's defense supposedly makes him more well rounded and overall better? Which is a lot of peoples argument.

And it wasn't some fluke shit. Dirk regularly outplayed opposing superstars in the playoffs across a big sample size.



for one similar points per game doesn’t mean two people played to a draw. It does to the kind of person who thinks 110 seconds of a series accounts for how well you played basketball for 310 minutes of PT but it in fact is a small portion of the game.

Which team wins doesn’t necessarily show it either though Duncan obviously won a lot more. They played like 5 times and the one time the Mavs won Duncan was statistically better and was trying to win his fourth championship when he ran wild in game seven. The Mavs won and went to the finals where Haslem held Dirk to 39/25 shooting and had him kicking exercise bikes feeling like he lost them the title. Unlike Tim he wasn’t gonna go out there and have seven blocks one game seven blocks a different game and close it out with 20 rebounds 10 assists and eight blocks, which are in addition to whatever he scores.

As close as the 2006 finals were down the stretch of many of those games it’s entirely possible Duncan takes away a couple of Wades layups and wins the title without even needing to score any more than Dirk did(22 and change). Which is why anchoring a legendary defense while having the ability of an overpowering scorer is given so much consideration when Tim is compared to anyone.

Not that most of that is even relevant to your point. The “What does it say that they played to a draw a couple times” point just isn’t a good one to begin with. It’s just the kind of example people who don’t really know the history of the game bring up because the incredible number of counter examples are unknown to them.

you don’t need to hear me list off a bunch of times slightly or even far lesser players have statistically played the other guy to draw or even won while nobody reasonable considers them the better player. We can just skip to the part where you act like it only matters in the situations you decide it does. That way I don’t need to talk to you about a bunch of shit you would have to google to confirm I’m right but disregard anyway.

After all this time, I think you know me well enough to know I could do it and I know you well enough to know you don’t actually care about the examples saying absolutely nothing of consequence.

Big picture wise Tim was just too great a defender and even after Robinson and before Leonard held down teams that won with defense and fans are never going to fully consider that.

even a lot of so-called real fans, hate the defense being the advantage that decides these things because there are always five or six other comparisons where you don’t want to do it. But Tim is one of those guys it was so good and so consistently effective for so long you don’t have to look at it like a side argument. It’s the meat of the discussion. Even if Tim couldn’t offensively go head to head with any big…and it’s shown he could…. he would be in the Hall of Fame for his defense.

If you make Tim an average scorer, who can maybe give you 17-20 a game at his best he is just a lesser legend. Hes like…Bill Walton. If you make him an average defender but the same offensive guy he was he’s also still gonna be in the Hall of Fame.

You can’t really have an all around player comparison between these two. You just have to come right out and acknowledge you don’t care who plays basketball better because you like the way the other guy scores even if he isn’t really going to score much more despite it being his calling card.

And that’s fine. He was a supremely skilled guy. But his teams that got over the hump had to deemphasize offense and go defense first and an ultimate lack of rim protection helped doom them the first time. And Chandler played a massive role not letting that happen the second time.

It isn’t pretty, but it is absolutely required, which is why a certain kind of fan will always lean towards Tim. A good NBA team is gonna score no matter what. There’s a reason every time a winning coach gets asked what the problem is during a rough patch he’s talking about defense. Fans only read that you had 22 points. It doesn’t even occur to them why the other team scored 69 which happened often playing the Spurs.

Tim can provide the backbone to help make you championship level on the end coaches and organizations prioritize. Just so happens that if he feels like it he can also score 25 to 30 a night on the side that fans care about.

There will always be an imbalance in the value the two sides put on those things. What it is at this point.

I’m gonna go cut some grass While we are in between hurricanes. I immediately left the Carolinas for Orlando when the power went out then left there and stayed in Virginia Beach for a while. Yard looking shaggy.

[tpols]

Dirk and Duncan played each other 3 times in what could be considered their relative primes. 2006, 2009, and 2010. We can't count 2014 when they were both totally out of prime or 2003 when Dirk missed the WCFs.

Dirks teams were straight up underdogs in all of those years coming into the season. Massive underdogs in some. And he went 2-1 vs Duncan H2H. With Josh Howard as his 2nd option while Duncan played with more All Star talent and in an elite system.

This isn't some sleepy Floyd shit. Dirk wasn't a fluke "oh this guy outplayed a superstar for a series" player. He regularly stepped up his game in the playoffs against the best and I honestly don't think Duncan wins with Mavericks in any year.

For Duncan 2003 was the only year he looked Dirk like in his takeover ability, but he faced an injured team in the WCFs and a one man band Kidd Nets in the Finals who had no more help than he did with Kerry Kittles at 2nd option. While Dirk took down a gauntlet of titans in 2011 with the defending champ Kobe Pau Lakers, Durant Westbrook Harden Thunder, and Lebron Wade Bosh Heat. I honestly don't think Duncan could have ever done that with the help Dirk was playing with.

[SouBeachTalents]

Dirk and Duncan played each other 3 times in what could be considered their relative primes. 2006, 2009, and 2010. We can't count 2014 when they were both totally out of prime or 2003 when Dirk missed the WCFs.

Dirks teams were straight up underdogs in all of those years coming into the season. Massive underdogs in some. And he went 2-1 vs Duncan H2H. With Josh Howard as his 2nd option while Duncan played with more All Star talent and in an elite system.

This isn't some sleepy Floyd shit. Dirk wasn't a fluke "oh this guy outplayed a superstar for a series" player. He regularly stepped up his game in the playoffs against the best and I honestly don't think Duncan wins with Mavericks in any year.

For Duncan 2003 was the only year he looked Dirk like in his takeover ability, but he faced an injured team in the WCFs and a one man band Kidd Nets in the Finals who had no more help than he did with Kerry Kittles at 2nd option. While Dirk took down a gauntlet of titans in 2011 with the defending champ Kobe Pau Lakers, Durant Westbrook Harden Thunder, and Lebron Wade Bosh Heat. I honestly don't think Duncan could have ever done that with the help Dirk was playing with.
The 2011 Lakers were a shell of themselves, with Kobe & Pau playing like absolute ass, I'd have full confidence in prime Duncan being able to win that series.

While he was extraordinarily clutch, Dirk honestly didn't even play that well in the Finals. While you could make a valid argument Duncan doesn't produce the consistent 4th quarter scoring Dirk does, his defensive presence would make life more difficult for Wade and an already struggling LeBron.

And why do I get the feeling the Thunder go from part of a gauntlet of titans in 2011 to a group of inexperienced kids in 2012 :lol

[ShawkFactory]

The 2011 Lakers were a shell of themselves, with Kobe & Pau playing like absolute ass, I'd have full confidence in prime Duncan being able to win that series.

While he was extraordinarily clutch, Dirk honestly didn't even play that well in the Finals. While you could make a valid argument Duncan doesn't produce the consistent 4th quarter scoring Dirk does, his defensive presence would make life more difficult for Wade and an already struggling LeBron.

And why do I get the feeling the Thunder go from part of a gauntlet of titans in 2011 to a group of inexperienced kids in 2012 :lol

I noticed that too :lol

Dude's talking about all of the wrong things anyway so who cares. Anyone can ignore reality and/or context and shape things to their favor.

[tpols]

Theres no way Duncan takes down the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat all in a row and in dominating fashion with 0 go to options in his starting line up. Old Kidd, Deshawn Stevenson, old Marion, and Tyson Chandler who doesn't even have so much as a simple hook shot. Dirk straight up carried them against crazy competition they were all underdogs for in a way I don't see Duncan being able to do. And that was end prime Dirk. I didn't even think Dirk himself could do it, an he somehow pulled it off. And had what was probably the clutchest playoff run of all time.

[ShawkFactory]

Theres no way Duncan takes down the Lakers, Thunder, and Heat all in a row and in dominating fashion with 0 go to options in his starting line up. Old Kidd, Deshawn Stevenson, old Marion, and Tyson Chandler who doesn't even have so much as a simple hook shot. Dirk straight up carried them against crazy competition they were all underdogs for in a way I don't see Duncan being able to do. And that was end prime Dirk. I didn't even think Dirk himself could do it, an he somehow pulled it off. And had what was probably the clutchest playoff run of all time.

On that exact same team? No, probably not.

[tpols]

On that exact same team? No, probably not.

That's what I'm saying. Dallas was not championship help with Caron butler getting hurt. He was their 2nd option in the starting lineup. And they somehow still won without him vs a really tough slate of competition overall. I'm not even saying Dirk >> Duncan, I think they're about equals with Dirk being the more high powered offensive weapon and Duncan being more well rounded great, balancing out in the end. I prefer Dirks clutch style though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nobody's disputing Dirk didn't lead one of the 3-4 weakest championship rosters ever, but you seriously overstate the carry job Dirk had. Look at his performances in their wins in the Finals

24/11/4 on 52%TS with 5 turnovers
21/11/1 on 45%TS
29/6/3 on 65%TS
21/11/1 on 38%TS

This was not some masterclass series by Dirk, it's a credit to his teammates they were able to still win the Finals with Dirk being substandard in the majority of these games.

Look no further than Game 6, when he came out with a 1/12 first half on the road and the Mavs still went into halftime with a lead.

[ShawkFactory]

That's what I'm saying. Dallas was not championship help with Caron butler getting hurt. He was their 2nd option in the starting lineup. And they somehow still won without him vs a really tough slate of competition overall. I'm not even saying Dirk >> Duncan, I think they're about equals with Dirk being the more high powered offensive weapon and Duncan being more well rounded great, balancing out in the end. I prefer Dirks clutch style though.

I know but that doesn't really matter because the team was shaped around Dirk and his skillset, not Duncan.

Conversely, I don't think there's any way in hell that the Spurs win the title in 03, 05, and potentially 07 if you swap Duncan for Dirk. Those teams were engineered on what Duncan did for them defensively and if you remove that then they aren't remotely the same team.

[tpols]

I know but that doesn't really matter because the team was shaped around Dirk and his skillset, not Duncan.

Conversely, I don't think there's any way in hell that the Spurs win the title in 03, 05, and potentially 07 if you swap Duncan for Dirk. Those teams were engineered on what Duncan did for them defensively and if you remove that then they aren't remotely the same team.

I don't think '03, but '05 and '07 are definitely possible with Dirk on the Spurs. '05 Manu and '07 Parker were the peak versions of themselves were big time star talent. They were outplaying Duncan himself offensively. Big upgrade from Josh Howard, who wasnt bad but never really as good as them. San Antonio had more talent by far in the mid 2000s than Dallas outside Duncan and Dirk.

[ShawkFactory]

I don't think '03, but '05 and '07 are definitely possible with Dirk on the Spurs. '05 Manu and '07 Parker were the peak versions of themselves were big time star talent. They were outplaying Duncan himself offensively. Big upgrade from Josh Howard, who wasnt bad but never really as good as them. San Antonio had more talent by far in the mid 2000s than Dallas outside Duncan and Dirk.

Yes but neither of them were defenders...and neither was Dirk. The Spurs were the best defense in the league every single year during that period; this is a big reason why they were so successful. If you remove Duncan then that is immediately no longer the case. Can they (or even Dirk) survive the physicality of that Detroit series without him? I'm not sure at all and would bet no.

[Kblaze8855]

I noticed that too :lol

Dude's talking about all of the wrong things anyway so who cares. Anyone can ignore reality and/or context and shape things to their favor.


There comes a point where someone is just gonna make reality fit the take. Acknowledge the significance of nothing but offense claim Duncan couldn’t win even on loaded offensive teams with Steve Nash and extras(at one point…Nash plus 3 all stars the oldest being 30). Couldn’t be done. But he already won with Tony Parker as his second scorer who put up 14.7 on .464 true shooting in the playoffs which is lower than 7 of Iversons 8 playoff runs. And he calls Iversons scoring putrid.

With that as his “help”….in a world where defense apparently isn’t significant enough to decide these things….Duncan didn’t prove he could have won with the kinda lineups Dallas built specifically to mimic the Spurs after firing their offensive innovator coach and replacing him with a role player from the Spurs.

He sees them do this….go away from soft players…install a Pop disciple Duncan teammate to piss everyone off and make them play rugged. Watches them make the finals that way….watches them eventually win with guys like Kidd, Marion, and Chandler…and describe the cast as merely old and the next seasons DPOY as simply “Not having a jump hook” while they baffled what should have been a goat tier trio and won with Dirk being a bit off shooting wise winning finals games he was 6-19 and 9-27 and he was a -4 while Wade, Bosh, and Lebron combine for only 57.

At this point there is nothing to be done.

Some people just dont accept basketball games require more than a specific ppg from one person. Or at least they only selectively acknowledge it. Makes these discussions useless. There are a lot of ways to win. Duncan proved capable of leading the charge on either end.

A lot of people prefer that approach. A lot of fans only care about scoring. Too late to do anything about that.

[tpols]

Yes but neither of them were defenders...and neither was Dirk. The Spurs were the best defense in the league every single year during that period; this is a big reason why they were so successful. If you remove Duncan then that is immediately no longer the case. Can they (or even Dirk) survive the physicality of that Detroit series without him? I'm not sure at all and would bet no.

Manu "wasn't a defender"...?

What? That kind of tells me you either didn't watch back then, or if you did you couldn't have been paying attention. Manu was a very good defensive player. The Spurs also had shutdown guys like Bruce Bowen and Popovich schemes defenses that were next level.

Oh, and Duncan started off his career playing with a super double double DPOY caliber and one of the best defenders ever in David Robinson. Which is like a billionaire version of Tyson Chandler and pretty much the perfect type of player to pair with Dirks skillset.

Looking at their careers realistically in terms of both player help and coaching, San Antonio had more support than Dallas. And prime Garnett had the worst help out of the three.

[Charlie Sheen]

In a year that has been so improbable, the impossible has happened

Dirk was phenomenal that run.. but the legend has grown out of proportion to the reality because of storytelling.

There was nothing improbable about Duncan winning. He was an all time prospect in the class of Lebron and Wemby.

[ShawkFactory]

Manu "wasn't a defender"...?

What? That kind of tells me you either didn't watch back then, or if you did you couldn't have been paying attention. Manu was a very good defensive player. The Spurs also had shutdown guys like Bruce Bowen and Popovich schemes defenses that were next level.

Oh, and Duncan started off his career playing with a super double double DPOY caliber and one of the best defenders ever in David Robinson. Which is like a billionaire version of Tyson Chandler and pretty much the perfect type of player to pair with Dirks skillset.

Looking at their careers realistically in terms of both player help and coaching, San Antonio had more support than Dallas. And prime Garnett had the worst help out of the three.

Manu was fine defensively, sure.

The Spurs defense was elite because of Duncan dude. It’s okay. He was the constant and the scheme and if you remove him from the situation those defenses are not the same at all.

[tpols]

Manu was fine defensively, sure.

The Spurs defense was elite because of Duncan dude. It’s okay. He was the constant and the scheme and if you remove him from the situation those defenses are not the same at all.

They don't need to be.

Dallas beat prime San Antonio with a mediocre defensive rank and Erick Dampier as their main center. But the Mavs had the #1 offensive rank in the league and the Spurs didn't and that made up the difference.

Nobody ever said Dirk is going to anchor some elite defense. But if he can anchor a #1 ranked offense with Josh Howard and Jason Terry he sure could do the same with peak Manu and Parker.

[dankok8]

I can agree that Dirk is a tier ahead of Duncan offensively. But Duncan is like three tiers ahead defensively and for bigs offense and defense drive impact pretty equally if not actually a slight edge for the defensive side.

I posted this in another Duncan thread. The Spurs became much better on D with Duncan on the court. Those teams were a defensive dynasty because of Duncan and then he also gave you ~24/13/4 in his prime on great efficiency on the offensive end.

DRtg Duncan ON/Duncan OFF/Difference

1998 - 97.4/98.2/-0.8
1999 - 93.1/91.9/+1.2
2000 - 95.8/102.4/-6.6
2001 - 95.7/104.9/-9.2
2002 - 98.5/103.6/-5.1
2003 - 98.1/103.2/-5.1
2004 - 92.1/97.5/-5.4
2005 - 94.5/103.4/-8.9
2006 - 99.2/100.3/-1.1
2007 - 98.4/104.6/-6.2
2008 - 101.6/102.1/-0.5
2009 - 106.0/103.0/+3.0
2010 - 103.0/107.9/-4.9
2011 - 102.2/109.5/-7.3
2012 - 100.3/106.5/-6.2
2013 - 99.4/103.6/-4.2
2014 - 103.1/101.7/+1.4
2015 - 102.0/102.6/-0.6
2016 - 96.1/100.9/-4.8

https://i.postimg.cc/rsy32tsY/Spurs-Defensive-Dominance-in-the-Duncan-Era.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

Dirk was phenomenal that run.. but the legend has grown out of proportion to the reality because of storytelling.

There was nothing improbable about Duncan winning. He was an all time prospect in the class of Lebron and Wemby.
It's honestly become disgustingly overrated. The Lakers were shot, LeBron had the worst series of his career, and Dirk had a pretty pedestrian Finals where Terry was honestly better than him over the final 3 games.

[ShawkFactory]

They don't need to be.

Dallas beat prime San Antonio with a mediocre defensive rank and Erick Dampier as their main center. But the Mavs had the #1 offensive rank in the league and the Spurs didn't and that made up the difference.

Nobody ever said Dirk is going to anchor some elite defense. But if he can anchor a #1 ranked offense with Josh Howard and Jason Terry he sure could do the same with peak Manu and Parker.

When you list players on a team why do you only do 1 or 2? Dallas was a very deep particularly on offense. If there was a better second PG in the league than Devin Harris then show them to me. The spurs were not built like this. Locking teams down is what made them great. Take this away and you take away the identity, even with a sometimes marginally better offensive player in his place.

And are they getting the same looks with Dirk then rather than a big who demanded double teams and was an incredibly intelligent passer? Does the chemistry work the same.

You’re being too selectively simplistic.

[EllEffEll]

Kinda feel like there needs to some criteria and context to how they'd be judged since everyone has a different set of factors that they apply. They each have something they were better than the others at and although I feel KG may not have been the consensus leader when he won a championship, they each have won it all. I feel like KG is going to end up at #4 in most scenarios, but that's nothing to be ashamed of.

I saw Moses play in person in 82-83 against the Lakers in LA. That Sixer team should always be in the GoAT season conversation and Moses was the guy that took them to that level IMHO.

Tim is the quiet assassin.

Dirk just throws dagger after dagger.

Elite group for sure.