The Nuggets extending Murray feels like a very emotional decision

[Neal Romer]

Im not saying the wrong one. Fans are emotional and you gotta appease the fans. If a player they like gets traded, fans will cry. Of course if he doesnt get traded and the team loses, fans cry. Fans are very intense about these things.

The Nuggets are brutal this year. Theyll win some games because of their starting lineup, but their complete lack of any depth means they are not contenders. Just simply no chance.

Jamal Murray's a good player. Hes a tough shot maker, and a big shot maker. Hes a crafty passer. The problem is hes in the very rare situation of playing with an all time great centerpiece, and his role is extremely redundant. One of the most efficient scorers AND greatest passers in history. Youre gonna play thru that guy. And the other guys, Gordon, MPJ, and Braun are great cutters and defenders whose game is maximized next to Jokic. All you need at the point guard spot is spot up shooting. Denver has sacrificed all their depth and salary cap to pay Murray 220M for spot up shooting.

It's not a sound business decision. It's an emotional decision. And now theyre out of contention for it. Not because Murray isnt a good enough player, Im high on Murray as a a player and he was obviously instrumental in their championship season. But his role isnt worth sacrificing all your depth for. They didnt need to do that. They could have put any good shooter on a cheap contract at the 1 and kept a solid bench, and theyd be better than they are right now.

People talk about the league being a cold hearted business. But I guess those uncomfortable with that notion can take solace in Murray's recent extension. They cant even trade him this year now if they wanted to. Even tho you could prob find a deal with Brooklyn, Toronto, maybe Miami, that would make everyone happy. But the team lacked the "lev evan" (heart of stone) to say Jamal we cant extend you bruh and we're prob gonna trade ya.

:confusedshrug:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jokic isn't going to drag Denver to championships without a guard that can create offense. If Murray isn't worth keeping at max it's because he has a hard time staying healthy, not the silly idea that Jokic doesn't need him. If they could trade him for some elite guard like Devin Booker they should do it but just letting him walk so that Jokic can hopefully keep them above the play-in would be stupid. You only move on from Murray if you have a strong replacement.

[Neal Romer]

Jokic isn't going to drag Denver to championships without a guard that can create offense. If Murray isn't worth keeping at max it's because he has a hard time staying healthy, not the silly idea that Jokic doesn't need him. If they could trade him for some elite guard like Devin Booker they should do it but just letting him walk so that Jokic can hopefully keep them above the play-in would be stupid. You only move on from Murray if you have a strong replacement.


Yes well you only "think" this because you think it's what other people would say or think. Your only ability to contribute is to be the repeater of others' ideas or views or policies. Hence you being the ISH hall monitor, Celtics lapdog and textbook dembot. Youre the insignificant minnow that cleans the mouth of whatever system you think has low enough standards to accept you instead of shun you.

Youre the last person I would expect to contribute something useful to the discussion of an unconventional or innovative idea.

Thanks for typing some meaningless words that nobody will care about or respect because of who theyre coming from tho.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Your insults would be better if you weren't trying so hard. Sorry if it hurts your feelings but jamal murray was an important player for Denver when they won a championship. Not valuing that would be stupid. You consistently freak out whenever a player gets a max deal. It's stupid. There are going to be a lot of players getting these deals. If the team cap is 140 million (and rising) we are going to eventually see a league where every playoff team has at least 2 players making over 40 mil per season and the price of having two top 20 guys goes well over 100 mil. This will happen. Denver is already slipping due to letting a few roleplayers go to save money. If they lost Murray they would basically be wasting the rest of Jokic's prime. So unless they can get some Kyrie-level replacement they may as well keep him... unless (to my point) they think he can't stay healthy.

[Neal Romer]

Your insults would be better if you weren't trying so hard. Sorry if it hurts your feelings but jamal murray was an important player for Denver when they won a championship. Not valuing that would be stupid. You consistently freak out whenever a player gets a max deal. It's stupid. There are going to be a lot of players getting these deals. If the team cap is 140 million (and rising) we are going to eventually see a league where every playoff team has at least 2 players making over 40 mil per season and the price of having two top 20 guys goes well over 100 mil. This will happen. Denver is already slipping due to letting a few roleplayers go to save money. If they lost Murray they would basically be wasting the rest of Jokic's prime. So unless they can get some Kyrie-level replacement they may as well keep him... unless (to my point) they think he can't stay healthy.

You should really master basic reading first before moving on to arguing.

I did not suggest Murray isnt worth a max. I said hes not worth a max to Denver. They won a championship with Murray AND a bench. The new cap rules forced them to now choose between the two, and they chose wrong, based on the makeup of their team. The starters could survive without Murray. What they need is ANY kind of contribution from the bench when the starters are out, and instead they get zero and just get hammered out of the game when the bench is in.

Do you understand? I tried to make that as SIMPLE as possible.

But I still dont think youll be smart enough to get it.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You are saying that he's worth the max in general, but not worth the max to the team he helped win a championship. That's an idiotic statement. You think they would be contending after his contract ended if they let him walk and kept KCP? Or am I again failing to follow your stream of incontinence?

[Neal Romer]

You are saying that he's worth the max in general, but not worth the max to the team he helped win a championship. That's an idiotic statement. You think they would be contending after his contract ended if they let him walk and kept KCP? Or am I again failing to follow your stream of incontinence?


Since youre shamelessly strawmanning with the insinuation Murray and KCP make the same amount of money, I should end this conversation. It's embarrassing that Im even talking to you. Youre a huge dork and a huge tard.

But first I will point out they dont make the same money. If the Nuggets could have made a Murray trade that kept KCP and added say a Schroeder and Finney Smith right now? Yes that is definitely a better team than what theyre fielding now. No doubt about it.

Now the conversation is over. You can go on being ultra corny but Ive said as much to you as Im gonna.

[Real Men Wear Green]

If all you have to say is the stupid suggestion I'm claiming Murray and KCP are paid the same then yeah, you may as well shut up.

[DJMcDonald]

:roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Jamal Murray's a good player. Hes a tough shot maker, and a big shot maker. Hes a crafty passer. The problem is hes in the very rare situation of playing with an all time great centerpiece, and his role is extremely redundant. One of the most efficient scorers AND greatest passers in history. Youre gonna play thru that guy. And the other guys, Gordon, MPJ, and Braun are great cutters and defenders whose game is maximized next to Jokic. All you need at the point guard spot is spot up shooting.




The main problem here seems to be your reluctance to accept that Jokic is not good enough to just make a team win the way you suggested when you saw him win(once in 10 years). Nobody is. You just became exactly what you accuse a lot of fans of being. Emotional. So you started your campaign suggesting there has never been anybody better and acting like the way he plays simply made his team unstoppable. I told you then that he like everyone would spend most of his career not winning because it isn’t as simple as being good enough personally.

The truth is playing the way he plays will make most any team good but you really do have to have someone else to get over the top. The only two deep playoff runs they made were when Jamal Murray was going crazy, making circus shots and putting up first ballot Hall of Fame numbers. His off years, they have been nothing worth talking about in the playoffs.

The year he was out in the playoffs they actually had a role-player nobody guard out there in his place, shooting 46% from three the series they got swept by the Suns.

He needs to be healthy and dynamic to make denver the best it can be. Nicola is going to be amazing no matter what. They would lose with a hot shooting role player at the point just like they will lose with Murray if he plays like Mike James.

No matter what you put around anybody they are going to lose most of the time because the number one factor is and always has been health and now the next factor is unpredictable shooting. It doesn’t matter who you put on the Nuggets if the Celtics shoot like they did in the opener. All these deep dives we love go out the window every year when somebody tweaks an ankle or missed an unusual number of open jumpers for two games.

All you have to do is be good enough to get into the conversation and hope you stay healthy. From there all the plans go out the window. The only way to counter the unpredictability of role-player shooting is someone so overwhelming it doesn’t matter. And no matter how overwhelming you are if somebody else isn’t forcing heavy coverage, you can be collapsed on and defeated when role players aren’t making threes.

which is why you need a second guy who can do things role-players can’t.

To do it without that, you need a perfect storm and you just can’t build a team that leans on an assumption of perfection.

You get the guy. They have the guy. And in almost every situation, you need another guy who can hit a wild pull up jumper. I know you hate it and love to think that you’re seeing something. The rest of the world can’t and I need to let go of the idea of talent, but the world has seen talents like Jamal Murray kicked their ass way too many times to stop seeking them out.

You might see somebody do it without the other guy two or three times in your life. Just a much safer bet to have him.

To put it most simply? There’s a reason we don’t try to reinvent the wheel. Too many people have seen the wheel work. Including Denver.

[highwhey]

i feel bad for OP, this thread is NOT going the way she envisioned it :roll:

[RRR3]

The main problem here seems to be your reluctance to accept that Jokic is not good enough to just make a team win the way you suggested when you saw him win(once in 10 years). Nobody is. You just became exactly what you accuse a lot of fans of being. Emotional. So you started your campaign suggesting there has never been anybody better and acting like the way he plays simply made his team unstoppable. I told you then that he like everyone would spend most of his career not winning because it isn’t as simple as being good enough personally.

The truth is playing the way he plays will make most any team good but you really do have to have someone else to get over the top. The only two deep playoff runs they made were when Jamal Murray was going crazy, making circus shots and putting up first ballot Hall of Fame numbers. His off years, they have been nothing worth talking about in the playoffs.

The year he was out in the playoffs they actually had a role-player nobody guard out there in his place, shooting 46% from three the series they got swept by the Suns.

He needs to be healthy and dynamic to make dinner the best it can be. Nicola is going to be amazing no matter what. They would lose with a hot shooting role player at the point just like they will lose with Murray if he plays like Mike James.

No matter what you put around anybody they are going to lose most of the time because the number one factor is and always has been health and now the next factor is unpredictable shooting. It doesn’t matter who you put on the Nuggets if the Celtics shoot like they did in the opener. All these deep dives we love go out the window every year when somebody tweaks an ankle or missed an unusual number of open jumpers for two games.

All you have to do is be good enough to get into the conversation and hope you stay healthy. From there all the plans go out the window. The only way to counter the unpredictability of role-player shooting is someone so overwhelming it doesn’t matter. And no matter how overwhelming you are if somebody else isn’t forcing heavy coverage, you can be collapsed on and defeated when role players aren’t making threes.

which is why you need a second guy who can do things role-players can’t.

To do it without that, you need a perfect storm and you just can’t build a team that leans on an assumption of perfection.

You get the guy. They have the guy. And in almost every situation, you need another guy who can hit a wild pull up jumper. I know you hate it and love to think that you’re seeing something. The rest of the world can’t and I need to let go of the idea of talent, but the world has seen talents like Jamal Murray kicked their ass way too many times to stop seeking them out.

You might see somebody do it without the other guy two or three times in your life. Just a much safer bet to have him.

To put it most simply? There’s a reason we don’t try to reinvent the wheel. Too many people have seen the wheel work. Including Denver.
Yikes, what a brutal beatdown. Pooooooor starface :roll:

[Neal Romer]

The year he was out in the playoffs they actually had a role-player nobody guard out there in his place, shooting 46% from three the series they got swept by the Suns.

Oh, the year Jokic was 25 and Gordon was 25 and MPJ was 22 and KCP wasnt on the roster and Bruce Brown wasnt on the roster and Jeff Green wasnt on the roster? You mean that year, when they made the second round without Murray (who still took up salary space, he wasnt replaced) and they lost to the #1 seed?

Yeah I think thats likely to end up a better result than what theyll get this year.

Anyway you rebuffed my description of an apple by describing an orange. The Nuggets current roster has nothing to do with their roster four years ago. Its just a bad argument.

[Neal Romer]

Oof.

When RMWG, highwhey, and RRR3 are the guys rallying to support you....


You know you are on the wrong side of good.

[RRR3]

Oof.

When RMWG, highwhey, and RRR3 are the guys rallying to support you....


You know you are on the wrong side of good.
Remember when you wasted tons of money buying a bunch of razor blades and had to shill for them on ISH to try and keep a profit? :roll:

[Kblaze8855]

Every comparison to everything else is immediately invalid if them being different situations makes it so…including what would happen in your hypothetical. Teams do not stay the same. Injuries do not stay the same. Circumstances do not repeat exactly but that doesn’t mean there has never been an apt comparison made in sports.

You are just going to have to accept that Jokic is going to mostly play and be eliminated his entire career like everyone else. He is amazing. He is not an outlier to the rule of nobody being good enough to do it all the time.

Once you accept that? That he like a bunch of other players in the league won when everything came together? That it took injuries or the lack of them? That it took hot shooting at the right time from other people? That it took another star stepping up? that he like Giannis and Steph and LeBron and players below that level like Tatum will not win….when the other variables aren’t set to allow it?

You can stop pushing The unconventional and just see how it unfolds. Not everything unconventional isn’t tried because only a few frustrated savants on the edge of society thought of them and don’t work in a position to implement it. Most unconventional approaches Thought of about the people who choose the conventional approach. They just don’t take the unconventional one because it’s ****ing stupid.

It really is that simple. Teams resign players who went crazy on their way to championships because they are proven commodities and trying to win with scrappy role players who don’t have another level to step up to is something you only do when you don’t have a choice.

You don’t choose to give Larry Bird a talent discrepancy just because he is great enough to possibly overcome it in a perfect situation. You give him Mchale and Parish and Dennis Johnson and Ainge and Walton because other people with players who might be good enough to overcome not having immense talent are still out there playing with Kareem and worthy and so on.

You don’t handicap yourself because you have somebody who could potentially turn to Kareem-Abdul Chambajordan for a week. You give him sufficient talent so he doesn’t have to unless the situation is dire.

And if somehow you were of the mindset that that’s the way to go having already done it conventionally with the big contract second star and won already would probably have you keep that dumb shit to yourself.

Like I said. The wheel doesn’t have to be reinvented. Not when you’ve already driven to the only place there is to go.

[highwhey]

Remember when you wasted tons of money buying a bunch of razor blades and had to shill for them on ISH to try and keep a profit? :roll:

:roll:

[Neal Romer]

Remember when you wasted tons of money buying a bunch of razor blades and had to shill for them on ISH to try and keep a profit? :roll:

Yes.

And youre still RRR3, and I'm not.

So I will take that W all day long.

[Kblaze8855]

Oof.

When RMWG, highwhey, and RRR3 are the guys rallying to support you....


You know you are on the wrong side of good.

1+1 being 2 doesn’t need support. But if you set out to argue that it isn’t, you should expect people to take issue.

I only pointed out the correct answer to the problem because it seemed you somehow had not reached it. And as simple as it is, we all do need to learn that one plus one equals two. Someone does have to teach all of us the basics at some point. I have a family background in early education so I figured I was as qualified as anybody else.

You have a nice night now. Need to go find some dinner.

[iamgine]

I think they have an ok bench once Westbrook gets his head out of his ass. Mike Malone only plays a 7-8 man rotation anyways in the playoff.

They'll be better and be one of the contenders again like every year.

[Neal Romer]

Every comparison to everything else is immediately invalid if them being different situations makes it so…including what would happen in your hypothetical. Teams do not stay the same. Injuries do not stay the same. Circumstances do not repeat exactly but that doesn’t mean there has never been an apt comparison made in sports.

You are just going to have to accept that Jokic is going to mostly play and be eliminated his entire career like everyone else. He is amazing. He is not an outlier to the rule of nobody being good enough to do it all the time.

Once you accept that? That he like a bunch of other players in the league won when everything came together? That it took injuries or the lack of them? That it took hot shooting at the right time from other people? That it took another star stepping up? that he like Giannis and Steph and LeBron and players below that level like Tatum will not win….when the other variables aren’t set to allow it?

You can stop pushing The unconventional and just see how it unfolds. Not everything unconventional isn’t tried because only a few frustrated savants on the edge of society thought of them and don’t work in a position to implement it. Most unconventional approaches Thought of about the people who choose the conventional approach. They just don’t take the unconventional one because it’s ****ing stupid.

It really is that simple. Teams resign players who went crazy on their way to championships because they are proven commodities and trying to win with scrappy role players who don’t have another level to step up to is something you only do when you don’t have a choice.

You don’t choose to give Larry Bird a talent discrepancy just because he is great enough to possibly overcome it in a perfect situation. You give him Mchale and Parish and Dennis Johnson and Ainge and Walton because other people with players who might be good enough to overcome not having immense talent are still out there playing with Kareem and worthy and so on.

You don’t handicap yourself because you have somebody who could potentially turn to Kareem-Abdul Chambajordan for a week. You give him sufficient talent so he doesn’t have to unless the situation is dire.

And if somehow you were of the mindset that that’s the way to go having already done it conventionally with the big contract second star and won already would probably have you keep that dumb shit to yourself.

Like I said. The wheel doesn’t have to be reinvented. Not when you’ve already driven to the only place there is to go.

This, again... is completely obtuse. The question is... is it deliberate?

Youre painting the issue as my faith in Jokic being too strong. Thats not at all what Im arguing.

In fact Im literally saying Jokic and the Nuggets are going to fail this year because their bench doesnt give them enough help. The Jokic/Murray Nuggets looked suspect in the playoffs last year, and lost even more bench this offseason and look even worse now.

The starting lineup is fine. In fact the starting lineup held their own last year and this year whether Murray was hot or cold. Thats a fact. The bench consistently puts them in a huge hole. Thats also a fact.

Between a quality bench or Jamal Murray in the starting lineup, this team needs a bench more. Im not saying both dont help. You get that right? Im not saying "no murray, no problem." Im saying no bench, BIGGER problem.

I feel like this isnt that hard to grasp and should actually sound reasonable to anyone who's paid attention to this team the last couple years.

[Neal Romer]

I think they have an ok bench once Westbrook gets his head out of his ass. Mike Malone only plays a 7-8 man rotation anyways in the playoff.

They'll be better and be one of the contenders again like every year.


Yeah that... wont be happening.

Westbrook, Saric, Strawther, and Watson is not an ok bench in the western conference playoff picture. Its actually horrendous.

7-8 man rotation doesnt matter when they have nobody useful beyond 5.

[Neal Romer]

https://i.postimg.cc/MHnh2Vmf/IMG-1638.jpg


:roll:


Cant make this stuff up.

[Proctor]

Yeah the Nuggets bench is downright atrocious.

A Westbrook that has his head out of his ass only 25% of the time, one of the slowest players in Saric and Watson is not an appropriate bench.

Even just some cheap free agents like Malachi Flynn and a Reggie Bullock/Robert Covington/Jae Crowder would be a massive upgrade.

Another problem is Calvin Booth thinks he's Bob Myers. :roll:

[iamgine]

Yeah that... wont be happening.

Westbrook, Saric, Strawther, and Watson is not an ok bench in the western conference playoff picture. Its actually horrendous.

7-8 man rotation doesnt matter when they have nobody useful beyond 5.

We'll see. I think it will be ok.

[RRR3]

Yes.

And youre still RRR3, and I'm not.

So I will take that W all day long.
You're a failed actor with no friends who begs for attention on a basketball forum because you don't get any in real life, I'm pretty happy being me instead of you :yaohappy:

[Neal Romer]

You're a failed actor with no friends who begs for attention on a basketball forum because you don't get any in real life, I'm pretty happy being me instead of you :yaohappy:

No youre not.

You made a thread called Existence is Pain.

You also made some other thread talking about how you secretly have a lot of darkness inside you.

So good luck to you with all that.

[BarberSchool]

I’ve never been a fan who looks at the contracts, or knows what each player is making, and their value relative to that.

But sometimes, I make note of when I hear what a player is making, and I don’t feel it matches their production/value/chemistry within the system.

For Denver, it wasn’t Jamal I assigned that sin to.

It was Michael Porter Jr.

[BarberSchool]

No youre not.

You made a thread called Existence is Pain.

You also made some other thread talking about how you secretly have a lot of darkness inside you.

So good luck to you with all that.Son is possessed by a demon whose name is indecipherable. No hope for him. His sewasyde would be righteous.

[BarberSchool]

*Walter Sobchek voice*

“Also dude, let’s NOT forget that Westbrick, so far, is shooting 20% from 2, 10% from 3, and 60% from the free throw line.”

Plenty of blame to go around for their poor start.
I predicted the moment they signed him, that Westbrick would eventually get into chemistry-killing actions, not with Jokic, whose ass he’ll kiss, but with their guards, who don’t practice all that hard due to nagging injuries, by the all star break.

[tontoz]

I was a fan of their 1st round pick Daron Holmes who went down with a season ending injury. That was a huge blow to their bench. He has legit size and can shoot. I think they would look at lot different if he was healthy.

[Charlie Sheen]

Bench pieces are available every season on the trade market.

Denver does not look like it is interested in trading draft picks or taking on salary. My opinion that is the wrong move. Max out the seasons you have Jokic in his absolute prime and pay that debt later. Lakers tried to walk that tight rope of trying to compete without trading their draft picks and I think that is likely the difference between another finals appearance.

[Neal Romer]

I was a fan of their 1st round pick Daron Holmes who went down with a season ending injury. That was a huge blow to their bench. He has legit size and can shoot. I think they would look at lot different if he was healthy.

I agree they caught a tough break in that regard. Similar to Knecht, Holmes was an older draftee and supposed to be a pro-ready guy who could give them some minutes right away. That was definitely unfortunate he went down.

Still, the way theyve started the season it's hard to say a rookie backup was gonna change their fortunes enough to keep them relevant. Theyve trailed almost all the minutes theyve played this season. They lost to the clippers and had to make late fourth quarter comebacks against Toronto and Brooklyn to squeeze out OT wins.

They dont look excited. They dont look hungry. They dont look like they really care that much to play. I think thats an underrated part of what a bench does. When you see your bench playing well and making some electric plays and keeping the crowd in it, you wanna go back in there and match that. When youre always just watching your bench blow a lead again and again it's just like... man this is a chore to even go back out there and have to play catch up all the time.

Theyre just not contenders like this. Not even close. They would be closer with Schroeder or someone similar, and a bench, than they are with Murray and no bench. It's very easy to see IMO.

[tontoz]

I am not a big Murray fan but he is obviously popular there. I am not sure what the best course was for them to take. They've never had a good bench even when they won the title.

Watson's inability to shoot is definitely a problem. Strawther showed some promise in the preseason. Saric should help.

Jokic struggled with his jumper last season but got off to a good start this season. I have seen Denver look lethargic early in the season before. I wouldn't draw any conclusions from it.

Edit: They started 14/10 the year they won the title.