Since Jokic is a better "passer-rebounder-scorer" than Lebron......

[3ba11]

what's Lebron's goat case without using longevity?

keep in mind that Bird, Magic, Luka and others can also make a case for best "passer-rebounder-scorer", and furthermore this argument already failed when Jordan beat it vs Bird/Magic - this precedent makes it no longer a goat argument to begin with.. So again, what's Lebron's goat case without using longevity?..

Btw, if you want to start talking about being the best young player, we know that Lebron was a g-league caliber against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old by virtue of 35% and 6 TO's per game against the 07' Spurs and 08' Celtics.. Meanwhile, Kobe dominated the Spurs as 1st option at the same ages in 01' and 02', or Magic was MVP at 20, or MJ set the record vs the 86' Celtics - so tons of guys were goat-level against championship comp at 22 and 23 years old, while Lebron was g-league caliber.

[Full Court]

If you take away longevity, Lebron isn't even top 10. Waaaaaayyyyy too many choke jobs in his prime.

[bdonovan]

Great players accumulate rings. It's not one and done. Jokic's ability to uplift his team a single time can be regarded as a fluke; and since then, his discipline and contribution to team play has declined.

This game is not about stats; which don't capture the majority of a player's impact on team basketball or defense. It's about winning. Jokic has a long way to establish himself as a legendary player in the neighborhood of Bird, Magic, LeBron, Curry etc. Due to his lack of conditioning, his legs and back will possibly break down ahead of schedule, so he had better get on it.

Jokic is a great shooter and passer, but largely an unskilled player on individual offense playmaking. Unlike the ability of the all-time greats to create their own shot, Jokic's offensive game consists of brute-force shouldering of his opponent out of the way. That's not true skill.

Compare it to the actual skill of someone like Hakeem, and you realize one simply uses their weight, while the other uses dexterity and footwork. Compare it to Duncan etc. Of course force is used in the paint, but great players have more to their game than creating separation by shouldering their opponent and using their weight.

Jokic's defense is atrocious. His lack of conditioning (which separates him from the all-time greats) has him flailing and lagging in the second half. He is not fast enough to switch and often gets torched on the perimeter. (keep in mind, most stats are inadequate at gauging contribution to team D, and reflect the contributions of other 4 players on the court; I pointed this out during Durant's tenure on GSW).

I fully expect a simple response lowering the discussion or ad hominem. Nonetheless, all the factors mentioned are relevant in comparing Jokic to the best.

[DJMcDonald]

LeBron has no case over Jokic all time. Not a single one.

[StrongLurk]

Pippen went 6/6 in the finals.

[3ba11]

.
FINALS


95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS




Pippen went 6/6 in the finals.


* O/6 in FMVP

* 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals

* Everyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for some of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg




Pippen went 6/6 in the finals.


Finals Career

PIPPEN'....... 19 on 42%.... 5.9 APG and 3.3 tov... woat clutch & 4th
JORDAN...... 34 on 48%.... 6.0 APG and 2.8 tov... goat clutch & 4th

[tpols]

Great players accumulate rings. It's not one and done. Jokic's ability to uplift his team a single time can be regarded as a fluke; and since then, his discipline and contribution to team play has declined.


Thats... total nonsense.

Jamal Murray shot like trash in the playoffs last year and is maybe a top 20ish player. Nowhere near as good as somebody like AD or Wade as a talent.

If Jokic started team hopping around the league with superstars and proven All NBA talent he'd be stacking rings left and right. But he doesn't seem to be that type of guy.

[StrongLurk]

.
FINALS


95' Horry...... 19.0 gamescore... 18/10/4/3/2 on 57 TS

92' Pippen.... 18.1 gamescore.... 21/8/7/2/1 on 56 TS
91' Pippen.... 17.5 gamescore.... 21/9/7/2/1 on 53 TS
93' Pippen.... 15.6 gamescore.... 20/9/8/2/1 on 46 TS
97' Pippen.... 15.1 gamescore.... 20/8/3/2/2 on 54 TS
96' Pippen.... 13.4 gamescore.... 16/7/5/2/1 on 43 TS
98' Pippen.... 13.0 gamescore.... 16/8/5/2/1 on 50 TS






* O/6 in FMVP

* 0/6 in matching Horry's gamescore from 95' Finals

* Everyone that won more than 2 Finals needed a teammate to get FMVP or 25 ppg for some of the Finals, except Pippen is 0/6 in FMVP and peaked at 21 ppg






Finals Career

PIPPEN'....... 19 on 42%.... 5.9 APG and 3.3 tov... woat clutch & 4th
JORDAN...... 34 on 48%.... 6.0 APG and 2.8 tov... goat clutch & 4th

Pip 6/6 in the finals

[Hey Yo]

Thats... total nonsense.

Jamal Murray shot like trash in the playoffs last year and is maybe a top 20ish player. Nowhere near as good as somebody like AD or Wade as a talent.

If Jokic started team hopping around the league with superstars and proven All NBA talent he'd be stacking rings left and right. But he doesn't seem to be that type of guy.


What had Kyrie proved over his 4yrs before LeBron?

Who was the proven All-NBA talent on LA when LeBron joined in 2019?