How often do low IQ athletes give teams a good return on investment?

[Neal Romer]

The NBA for a while obsessively overvalued VERY unintelligent people who happened to be athletic like Michael Beasley, JR Smith, Steve Francis (crackhead), Jarvarious Crittenton (jailed for murder), Ruben Patterson (convicted rapist), Anthony Bennett, Darius Miles, Andray Blatche, among myriad others who were not only lazy, unprofessional, and dumb... but also in many cases not even skilled at the game. Like these guys couldnt score the free 200 points on the SAT for spelling their name right, and they were given the responsibility of being a million dollar ambassador of the NBA.

Somewhere in the cultural transition from the MJ era to the Iverson era games became largely a hood playground. And that was popular for a little while due to the novelty of the fashions and attitudes and the tats and the jive and the swag... And that's fair, I was an adolescent at that time and I bought into it to an extent too. And teams drafted immature, ignorant knuckleheads high and tried to make them stars and leaders of professional, rapidly globalizing billion dollar franchises. And not surprisingly, time proved that really wasnt a sustainable mix.

Between the recent influx of international talent (Yama, Giannis, Joker, Luka, Embiid) and worthy franchise leaders (Shai, Ant, Lebron obviously) and next year's number 1 (Flagg), what was never going to work all along is finally starting to naturally correct itself.

I'm wondering why the NFL hasnt caught onto this yet? Just the other day some idiot on the Bears was yapping with fans WHILE the other team was completing a Hail Mary behind him. Meanwhile Traeveon Diggs on the Cowboys was accosting a reporter and trying to intimidate him. This being the same idiot who was trying to tweet public shots at Josh Allen when Stefon was on the team and struggling, typing things like "yo mans why dis dude cants throw my bruh da football man das some bull get my bruh off dat team josh allen aint it bruh." And meanwhile the dude is making all kinds of stupid mistakes on the field. Like he's simply a low IQ idiot. Period.

And now there's some former receiver for the Saints tweeting out low IQ idiot stuff like


Former Saints wide receiver Michael Thomas appeared to blame Carr for Olave's concussion in posts to his X account.

"Dude. Scary and panic and just throw the ball," Thomas wrote among a series of tweets about Carr, "Get him the f out of here he is so ass."

Thomas also said at the time that the Saints weren't trying to get him the ball. Carr addressed Thomas' tweets in an interview in February and said that he wished Thomas would have called him instead. Carr said at the time that he thought Thomas was frustrated because Olave was getting the majority of the first-team reps in practice last season.

"Dude tried to lie and say I was jealous of them making Chris WR1 whole time he can't even get him a decent ball. He need his ass whooped," Thomas wrote Sunday.

He's trying to threaten 'whoopin somebody ass' because Carr expressed confusion at Thomas publicly choosing to be a buffoon.

I guess what I'm wondering is, why does the NFL still have so many guys who are belligerently stupid? You cant tell me guys that stupid make the best cornerbacks or receivers purely based on straight line speed. Surely there are other skills involved that require an understanding of concepts that you know these guys bring the absolute minimum in.

[Neal Romer]

Every week you see guys in the NFL who clearly couldnt do long division with a calculator make shockingly stupid unnecessary decisions that cost their team.

I just cant believe with all the money on the line that the NFL cant find replacements for these guys the way the NBA eventually did. I get that the NFL doesnt have as much of an international talent pool to choose from like the NBA, but maybe they can develop one?

These guys we've been led to believe are the 'best athletes' are definitely not the best athletes out there. They're a bunch of Russell Westbrooks. If you dont care about winning, the flashy things they can do will wow you. But doing pointless high degree of difficulty stuff isnt ultimately tied to winning. Mentally tough professionalism is. You cant tell me normal guys like Ronde Barber or Cooper DeJean who can also play defensive back are SOOOO RARE in this world that you have no choice but to start the majority of your defensive backfield with Tron 'Fight Me Right Now Bitch' Jackson. I dont believe that.

The league is clearly suffering a mistaken infatuation with what makes a winning player, particularly at the position of defensive back, just as the NBA once did. They're obsessed with combine measurables. And they're all afraid to be the first one to say '**** it, thats not important. we're prioritizing professionals who may not have the combined stat$."

[Full Court]

You can't bring up low IQ athletes without mentioning Lebron James.

Just about every statement he makes is idiotic, but by far the lowest IQ one of them all was in regards to the Morey Kong Kong tweet.

“Yes, we do have freedom of speech, but at times, there are ramifications for the negative that can happen when you’re not thinking about others, when you only think about yourself.”

Morey was acting out the very definition of "thinking about others," genius.



Then this moron convenes a War Room to figure out how to stack his superteam.....and comes up with





Westbrook. :roll:

[Neal Romer]

You can't bring up low IQ athletes without mentioning Lebron James.

Just about every statement he makes is idiotic, but by far the lowest IQ one of them all was in regards to the Morey Kong Kong tweet.

“Yes, we do have freedom of speech, but at times, there are ramifications for the negative that can happen when you’re not thinking about others, when you only think about yourself.”

Morey was acting out the very definition of "thinking about others," genius.



Then this moron convenes a War Room to figure out how to stack his superteam.....and comes up with





Westbrook. :roll:


Ummm, Lebron has a very beautiful brain. Keep his name out ya mouf.


In fact Ima say I think you need somebody whoop ya ass bruh.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's not a fair comparison because you're comparing a roster of 12, where usually only 8 guys play the majority of minutes, to a roster of 55 where a majority of them are getting reps every game. You simply don't have the luxury to be as discerning with that many roster spots to fill as you can be when you only need a handful of guys to be competent.

I'm in agreement with you that teams should cut ties with a player who consistently exhibits low IQ behavior, but simply due to the number of roster spots that need to be filled, the demand for talent is too high for a lot of these teams to turn down talented players because of potential off the field problems or poor intangibles. Roster construction in the NBA & NFL is honestly an apples & oranges comparison.

[iamgine]

You don't know who's gonna turn out well and who's not when you draft them. Like, you think Kevin Garnett didn't appear dumb and immature as an 18 years old? You think Giannis was more than a Bruno Caboclo when he was drafted? Luka, in many aspects, was very immature. What about Ja Morant? Should Memphis just cut him?

OTOH There are plenty of players who are much more professional and smarter than JR Smith who wouldn't even be close to his impact on a basketball court.

[Neal Romer]

It's not a fair comparison because you're comparing a roster of 12, where usually only 8 guys play the majority of minutes, to a roster of 55 where a majority of them are getting reps every game. You simply don't have the luxury to be as discerning with that many roster spots to fill as you can be when you only need a handful of guys to be competent.

I'm in agreement with you that teams should cut ties with a player who consistently exhibits low IQ behavior, but simply due to the number of roster spots that need to be filled, the demand for talent is too high for a lot of these teams to turn down talented players because of potential off the field problems or poor intangibles. Roster construction in the NBA & NFL is honestly an apples & oranges comparison.

Yeah but I still have a hard time believing out of the millions of youth in America who play sports, that filling 32 pro level defensive backfields with qualified players eventually somehow narrows the talent pool down to that high a proportion of aggressively unintelligent people. There's a lot of good athletes in America. And a lot of them are mature and professional. It doesnt seem believable that teams think they need Pacman Jones or Sean Taylor in order to win. Not when Superbowls have been won with Troy Polamalu, John Lynch, Patrick Chung, Rodney Harrison etc at defensive back, guys who are more than just a 4.3 forty and a bunch of "I ****s u wup mutha****ka." Why even sign guys who are substantially stunted mentally, as so many NFL defensive backs are?? It doesnt seem plausible these guys are THAT indispensable you cant fill 32 defensive backfields with qualified athletes who are also at least AVERAGE intelligence.


You don't know who's gonna turn out well and who's not when you draft them. Like, you think Kevin Garnett didn't appear dumb and immature as an 18 years old? You think Giannis was more than a Bruno Caboclo when he was drafted? Luka, in many aspects, was very immature. What about Ja Morant? Should Memphis just cut him?

OTOH There are plenty of players who are much more professional and smarter than JR Smith who wouldn't even be close to his impact on a basketball court.

Lots of players enter the draft with visible red flags, and teams just draft them anyway. And yes I believe that the drop-off at the top of the draft and the end of the draft is a lot less severe than people think, particularly when teams draft obviously unprepared, immature players. Guys like Fred Van Vleet and Austin Reeves go undrafted while JR Smith goes in the first round. My point is, how often does it really end up paying off to draft a JR Smith? Why not just exclude guys that dumb out the box, and take whoever the next best player is?

What Im saying is, why dont sports teams unlike every other profession, have some aptitude and professionalism standards for their employees? Unless there is substantial evidence to show you need screechy malcontent showboat 'fight me' types to win. Are a Jerry Rice and a Cris Carter not good enough? We need single digit IQ fools sprinting to the camera after a touchdown to do a 12 step jig and a 30 second pelvis shimmy when their team is down 24-7? Or headbutting an opponent after the play in the final minutes of a tie game with the playoffs on the line?

I just dont get it. I dont believe that these guys talent is so precious that theyre the only qualified players at this level. I dont see any Olympic athletes doing this. Theres no correlation between acting that way and being a great athlete. It doesnt add up.

[iamgine]

Guy drafted after JR Smith is Dorell Wright. There's also Pavel Podkolzin, Viktor Kryapa, and Sergei Moina a couple spots after. Now I'm sure they're all smarter and more professional than JR.

[Im Still Ballin]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wonderlic_test#Predictor_of_success_in_the_NFL


The Wonderlic Contemporary Cognitive Ability Test (formerly the Wonderlic Personnel Test) is an assessment used to measure the cognitive ability and problem-solving aptitude of prospective employees for a range of occupations. The test was created in 1939 by Eldon F. Wonderlic. It consists of 50 multiple choice questions to be answered in 12 minutes.[1][2][3] The score is calculated as the number of correct answers given in the allotted time, and a score of 20 is intended to indicate average intelligence.


The Lyons study also found that the relationship between Wonderlic test scores and future NFL performance was negative for a few positions, indicating the higher a player scores on the Wonderlic test, the worse the player will perform in the NFL.[37] For tight ends and defensive backs, it was found that lower scores indicated increased achievements.


A 2016 study found that the Wonderlic significantly predicted future arrests, referred to as criminal off-duty deviance, with players testing below the league average being almost twice as likely to get arrested in the future as players who scored above the league average.

[Neal Romer]

Guy drafted after JR Smith is Dorell Wright. There's also Pavel Podkolzin, Viktor Kryapa, and Sergei Moina a couple spots after. Now I'm sure they're all smarter and more professional than JR.


Yeah, of course most draft picks are misses. I'm not saying it's a guarantee.

But what I'm saying is, a professional player is more likely to succeed than an unprofessional one. The Spurs dynasty. The Warriors dynasty. Lakers dynasty. The current Celtics. Lebron. Joker. Dirk. Wade. All these guys stay out of trouble and play hard and are smart.

How many guys who act hood have been successful? Ok, the Pierce and Garnett Celtics won one title. Rasheed and Ben Wallace got one. Iverson made a finals. I think that's about it. So it can happen, but not nearly as often. It's just proven to not be that common a thing. Tom Brady and Patrick Mahomes win titles. Lamar Jackson is the MVP. What did JaMarcus Russell and Anthony Richardson do? Where is Aaron Hernandez right now?

Theres really no point in drafting guys who everyone knows are lazy or not smart or wanna be thugs. And so many times it's KNOWN BEFORE THE DRAFT.

So like, just dont draft them. No matter what. Right?

[iamgine]

If most draft are misses, why not draft JR, who actually had a long and productive career. You'd rather draft Pavel Podkolzin?

[Neal Romer]

If most draft are misses, why not draft JR, who actually had a long and productive career. You'd rather draft Pavel Podkolzin?

'Long and productive?' You must be mistaking JR Smith's career for Lebron's pen1s. When he didnt play with LeCarryTheLoad he was always doing some bonehead nonsense.




During his first season in Denver, Smith served a 10-game NBA suspension from December 18 to January 8 following his involvement in the Knicks/Nuggets melee at New York's Madison Square Garden on December 16. He later missed eight games between February 23 and March 11 while recovering from arthroscopic left knee surgery. After struggling in the first four games of the Nuggets' first-round playoff series against the San Antonio Spurs, including going 0-for-12 from 3-point range, Smith was benched for Game 5 of the series. Nuggets coach George Karl reportedly had had enough of Smith's mistakes throughout the series, compounded by Smith's 3-pointer with 25.7 seconds left in Game 4 with Denver trailing 93–89.

On July 11, 2013, Smith re-signed with the Knicks. He missed the first five games of the 2013–14 season for violating the NBA's anti-drug policy

On March 2, 2018, Smith was suspended by the Cavaliers for one game for throwing a bowl of soup at assistant coach Damon Jones.

During Game 1 of the NBA Finals against the Warriors, Smith got a free-throw rebound with 4.7 seconds left in regulation time. The game was tied, meaning that a basket would have won the game. Smith, apparently confused and thinking the Cavaliers were leading, attempted to dribble out the clock before realizing his error and frantically passing to George Hill with 1.2 seconds left, in front of a visibly irate LeBron James.

What I'm saying is, there has to be some happy medium somewhere between this and Pavel Podkolzin. Unless you have Lebron James on your team, you arent going anywhere with airheads.

[iamgine]

Compared to most players, JR had a long and productive career. There's really no happy medium. If the team don't draft JR, they'd likely draft the likes of Podkolzin.

Unfortunately we don't have crystal ball to tell us 2nd rounders like Jokic's going to be a great player.

[Neal Romer]

Compared to most players, JR had a long and productive career. There's really no happy medium. If the team don't draft JR, they'd likely draft the likes of Podkolzin.

Unfortunately we don't have crystal ball to tell us 2nd rounders like Jokic's going to be a great player.

Youre BS'n man.

First of all Pavel Podkolzin was apparently a 7'5 center who had to withdraw from the previous year's draft due to his difficulties with acromegaly. The Mavs reached for an unorthodox center with a questionable medical history. That doesnt mean the team that drafted JR had to pick Pavel Podkolzin with their pick.

Lets talk about guards drafted AFTER Smith: Jameer Nelson. Kevin Martin. Beno Udrih. Sasha Vujacic. Tony Allen.

I'll take any of those guys on my team over Earl if I'm trying to build a serious winner and not just market shoes to kids by drafting a guy who might have a lot of sportscenter highlights.

[bdonovan]

Are we really equipped to gauge what IQ others are?

These days, people call each other "low IQ" because we disagree with them. We don't have any way practically to measure how smart they are, but if they disagree with any of our values or stances we have some emotional investment in, we, in thrall to our supposedly brilliant worldview, call them 'stupid'.

Do we actually know the IQ of people like Shaq, Iverson, Melo, etc?

If you ever watched an interview of Pete Sampras, he seems slow. He never seemed to know the answer to the question, and gave some generic response. But he won 14 grand slams. He had all the tennis IQ he needed.

I'm not sure who's smart and not. Sean Kemp looked like the kind of low-IQ individual you mention; he still seemed to have enough basketball IQ to function all right. Oftentimes, I'm guessing we're going off what they look like or sound like in interviews.

The real IQ deficit that matters are mental lapses on the court. IDK maybe JeVale McGee is street-smart, is smart in certain ways; but on the court, he makes tons of mistakes, like being in the wrong position. Enes Kanter made tons of mental mistakes.

One bad habit some athletes have is being anti-intellectual; the kind of athlete that doesn't know a lot and doesn't want to know. Asking questions is "weakness". Learning from a teammate is 'lame', and the player has some BS cope reason why his teammate does something well. To be smart, you need at least a hint of humility. For those saying Jordan disproves this, see the way he talks to Rodman to get him to do the right thing, or add his post game in his later years. He was never complacent and always willing to learn.

[Neal Romer]

Are we really equipped to gauge what IQ others are?

These days, people call each other "low IQ" because we disagree with them. We don't have any way practically to measure how smart they are, but if they disagree with any of our values or stances we have some emotional investment in, we, in thrall to our supposedly brilliant worldview, call them 'stupid'.

Do we actually know the IQ of people like Shaq, Iverson, Melo, etc?

If you ever watched an interview of Pete Sampras, he seems slow. He never seemed to know the answer to the question, and gave some generic response. But he won 14 grand slams. He had all the tennis IQ he needed.

I'm not sure who's smart and not. Sean Kemp looked like the kind of low-IQ individual you mention; he still seemed to have enough basketball IQ to function all right. Oftentimes, I'm guessing we're going off what they look like or sound like in interviews.

The real IQ deficit that matters are mental lapses on the court. IDK maybe JeVale McGee is street-smart, is smart in certain ways; but on the court, he makes tons of mistakes, like being in the wrong position. Enes Kanter made tons of mental mistakes.

One bad habit some athletes have is being anti-intellectual; the kind of athlete that doesn't know a lot and doesn't want to know. Asking questions is "weakness". Learning from a teammate is 'lame', and the player has some BS cope reason why his teammate does something well. To be smart, you need at least a hint of humility. For those saying Jordan disproves this, see the way he talks to Rodman to get him to do the right thing, or add his post game in his later years. He was never complacent and always willing to learn.

I dont mean low IQ in a literal cognitive/academic sense altho obviously theres some degree of correlation. I mean it in the colloquial way. Immature, impulsive, lazy, and all of these things in ways that show up on the court or field. There are plenty of guys who clearly exhibit these traits early on and yet still get drafted highly and sometimes even get big contract EXTENSIONS after theyve underwhelmed their first four years because teams delude themselves with "he had a 38 inch vertical, if he can just get it together during this next contract..."

And Im just asking how often STATISTICALLY do these gambles on low IQ punks actually pay off in the win column. Id be really curious to see some analytics in it. Because I think teams overrate how impactful these guys drafted purely as "athletes" with no other redeeming characteristics actually become.

[iamgine]

Youre BS'n man.

First of all Pavel Podkolzin was apparently a 7'5 center who had to withdraw from the previous year's draft due to his difficulties with acromegaly. The Mavs reached for an unorthodox center with a questionable medical history. That doesnt mean the team that drafted JR had to pick Pavel Podkolzin with their pick.

Lets talk about guards drafted AFTER Smith: Jameer Nelson. Kevin Martin. Beno Udrih. Sasha Vujacic. Tony Allen.

I'll take any of those guys on my team over Earl if I'm trying to build a serious winner and not just market shoes to kids by drafting a guy who might have a lot of sportscenter highlights.

Ah yes maybe Cleveland should've taken Jokic eh in 2014 instead of Wiggins. How could they've not known Jokic was so professional and smart.

[Neal Romer]

Ah yes maybe Cleveland should've taken Jokic eh in 2014 instead of Wiggins. How could they've not known Jokic was so professional and smart.

Again, Im not saying to strictly prioritize guys on SAT scores and professionalism.

Rather, eliminate the guys who BLATANTLY lack maturity and motivation and work ethic, and go from there. You know, like every other employer in the world. Dont draft guys who have well known question marks about their attitude and behavior.

Its pretty simple.

[iamgine]

And draft Podolzkin or Kryapa instead? No thanks. Rather took a chance on JR.

[Chick Stern]

https://cdn.quotesgram.com/img/7/2/248175574-o7V81aM_jpg.jpg

[tpols]

Yeah but I still have a hard time believing out of the millions of youth in America who play sports, that filling 32 pro level defensive backfields with qualified players eventually somehow narrows the talent pool down to that high a proportion of aggressively unintelligent people. There's a lot of good athletes in America. And a lot of them are mature and professional. It doesnt seem believable that teams think they need Pacman Jones or Sean Taylor in order to win. Not when Superbowls have been won with Troy Polamalu, John Lynch, Patrick Chung, Rodney Harrison etc at defensive back, guys who are more than just a 4.3 forty and a bunch of "I ****s u wup mutha****ka." Why even sign guys who are substantially stunted mentally, as so many NFL defensive backs are?? It doesnt seem plausible these guys are THAT indispensable you cant fill 32 defensive backfields with qualified athletes who are also at least AVERAGE intelligence.



Lots of players enter the draft with visible red flags, and teams just draft them anyway. And yes I believe that the drop-off at the top of the draft and the end of the draft is a lot less severe than people think, particularly when teams draft obviously unprepared, immature players. Guys like Fred Van Vleet and Austin Reeves go undrafted while JR Smith goes in the first round. My point is, how often does it really end up paying off to draft a JR Smith? Why not just exclude guys that dumb out the box, and take whoever the next best player is?

What Im saying is, why dont sports teams unlike every other profession, have some aptitude and professionalism standards for their employees? Unless there is substantial evidence to show you need screechy malcontent showboat 'fight me' types to win. Are a Jerry Rice and a Cris Carter not good enough? We need single digit IQ fools sprinting to the camera after a touchdown to do a 12 step jig and a 30 second pelvis shimmy when their team is down 24-7? Or headbutting an opponent after the play in the final minutes of a tie game with the playoffs on the line?

I just dont get it. I dont believe that these guys talent is so precious that theyre the only qualified players at this level. I dont see any Olympic athletes doing this. Theres no correlation between acting that way and being a great athlete. It doesnt add up.

To be fair, some of the knuckle heads do pay off. Guys like tyreek hill and Marshawn lynch and Joe mixon and cam newton and brandon marshall and ocho cinco and terrell owens and honestly a **** ton of other guys. Having superman athleticism can cover some bases even if they're super ignorant and hood.

[Neal Romer]

To be fair, some of the knuckle heads do pay off. Guys like tyreek hill and Marshawn lynch and Joe mixon and cam newton and brandon marshall and ocho cinco and terrell owens and honestly a **** ton of other guys. Having superman athleticism can cover some bases even if they're super ignorant and hood.


For sure, when the majority of players you draft are self-absorbed some of them are gonna end up having success just purely due to circumstance. Altho you just listed seven very high profile players and yet how much playoff success do they collectively have? A lot less than Hines Ward, Deon Branch, Gronk and Cooper Kupp.

In fact theres a very real negative correlation between how obnoxiously a teams receivers celebrate touchdowns, and how likely they are to win a superbowl. It's just like what that dude said in white men cant jump. Some players would rather look good and lose than get less attention and win. Thats one type of player I'm talking about in this thread.

Why there are still so many guys like that in professional sports just confuses me. Im not saying guys have to be muted. You can still get hyped and show emotion and play to the audience a little bit at the appropriate moment. But so many guys make that priority number 1, 2, and 3. Or they let their emotions get to them easily after every physical interaction and do stupid "fight me" shit that costs their team.

You dont win with those guys nearly as much as I think people still think you do. The leagues are just so flooded with them nobody realizes it. Everyone takes for granted those guys must be the best option. Im not convinced the data supports it.

[Charlie Sheen]

mike thomas is lashing out at people as reasons why hes outta the league like george karl does to his former players.

His tweets yesterday were anger and bitterness.

[Neal Romer]

mike thomas is lashing out at people as reasons why hes outta the league like george karl does to his former players.

His tweets yesterday were anger and bitterness.

Exactly. And Karl's been making a fool of himself continuing to make these comments over and over.

I dont think anyone would be quick to hire him after the way hes dragged out his discontentment so publicly for so long.

[999Guy]

Jr Smith when young and in his prime was pretty good on both ends. Athletic high energy defender and a decent slasher and cutter who could finish and make really bad shots on the outside.

Everyone else was trash though.

[tpols]

For sure, when the majority of players you draft are self-absorbed some of them are gonna end up having success just purely due to circumstance. Altho you just listed seven very high profile players and yet how much playoff success do they collectively have? A lot less than Hines Ward, Deon Branch, Gronk and Cooper Kupp.

In fact theres a very real negative correlation between how obnoxiously a teams receivers celebrate touchdowns, and how likely they are to win a superbowl. It's just like what that dude said in white men cant jump. Some players would rather look good and lose than get less attention and win. Thats one type of player I'm talking about in this thread.

Why there are still so many guys like that in professional sports just confuses me. Im not saying guys have to be muted. You can still get hyped and show emotion and play to the audience a little bit at the appropriate moment. But so many guys make that priority number 1, 2, and 3. Or they let their emotions get to them easily after every physical interaction and do stupid "fight me" shit that costs their team.

You dont win with those guys nearly as much as I think people still think you do. The leagues are just so flooded with them nobody realizes it. Everyone takes for granted those guys must be the best option. Im not convinced the data supports it.


I mean half those guys were dominant super bowl champions. And then you'll have a super reasonable and intelligent player / speaker like Calvin Johnson or David Robinson or Barry Sanders that never won anything. It's all honestly a crap shoot. Nobodies taking Cooper Kupp over Randy Moss or Terrell Owens no matter how much drama the latter two cause. And I don't even think you would. You've gotta weight everything and sometimes the physical talent differential eclipses the crazy.

[tpols]

Jr Smith when young and in his prime was pretty good on both ends. Athletic high energy defender and a decent slasher and cutter who could finish and make really bad shots on the outside.

Everyone else was trash though.

He was also on a bunch of successful teams. Made the WCFs with Melo in Denver, multiple Finals with Cleveland and was part of an NBA championship team where he was the 3rd leading scorer in the Finals. Not too bad for a low IQ player.

[SouBeachTalents]

I mean half those guys were dominant super bowl champions. And then you'll have a super reasonable and intelligent player / speaker like Calvin Johnson or David Robinson or Barry Sanders that never won anything. It's all honestly a crap shoot. Nobodies taking Cooper Kupp over Randy Moss or Terrell Owens no matter how much drama the latter two cause. And I don't even think you would. You've gotta weight everything and sometimes the physical talent differential eclipses the crazy.
I would 1000% take Kupp on my team over Owens, he was genuinely one of the biggest cancers in the history of sports.

[tpols]

I would 1000% take Kupp on my team over Owens, he was genuinely one of the biggest cancers in the history of sports.

That's insanity. Even with the craziness he simply performed at a GOAT level and was tough as nails. And his teams had plenty of success... more than Kupps.

[Neal Romer]

I mean half those guys were dominant super bowl champions. And then you'll have a super reasonable and intelligent player / speaker like Calvin Johnson or David Robinson or Barry Sanders that never won anything. It's all honestly a crap shoot. Nobodies taking Cooper Kupp over Randy Moss or Terrell Owens no matter how much drama the latter two cause. And I don't even think you would. You've gotta weight everything and sometimes the physical talent differential eclipses the crazy.


Youre using two hindsight examples of extremely prolific players. Those arent the norm. There are tons of NFL players who are nothing special, but who dont play smart, arent composed, have no professionalism and so on. As I said, that Saint receiver clown. Treavon Diggs. The guy on the Bears who was trying to play tough guy with the fans and gave up the winning play. And tons more. Yes, I think teams should be drafting those guys way lower than they are currently, and if/when a few of them turn into TO/Moss then you can make whatever commitment to them you want. I think youre seeing this as an all or nothing thing. Im not saying unprofessional guys never succeed. So providing a few examples doesnt dispute what Im saying. My point is you can see tangible patterns suggesting those guys as a collective are LESS valuable than most people think, and therefore teams should reduce the priority of drafting them. Im not saying "only draft rhodes scholars, every time." Im saying tweak the risk-reward calculus when you grade draft picks. Use some nuance in the approach.

Hell the Cowboys have a whole team full of guys who think theyre da boss and yet the team sucks. I would absolutely take Kupp over CeeDee Lamb if theyre both healthy, and Lamb is probably the more talented player. But sports arent about 40 yard dash times. Its a team goal that takes consistency, teamwork, and strategy. I would not feel confident going into battle with Ceedee Lamb. Hes too emotional and immature. He'll get big stats over time but in big moments? He'll be unprepared and crumble.

[SouBeachTalents]

That's insanity. Even with the craziness he simply performed at a GOAT level and was tough as nails. And his teams had plenty of success... more than Kupps.
The guy burned bridges, destroyed locker room morale, and clashed with his pro bowl QB literally everywhere he went, at least until he was washed up those last couple of years. And how much playoff success did his teams achieve? The Niners won some playoff games early in his career, but once he became a pro bowler in the 2000's? His teams won one playoff game, which required a miraculous 38-14 comeback. I know he would've won at least 2 additional ones with Philly in '04 if he was healthy, but they did manage to make the Super Bowl and finally conquer their NFC Title demons without him.

Maybe you forget just how much of a clown and egotistical showboat this dude was, but just look at that final season in Philly, I have legitimately never seen that kind of behavior from an athlete. Moss was also a locker room disruption, but his seemed more manageable than Owens, and he was also a better receiver. I would honestly rather have a still elite but lesser talent in Kupp than an inevitable disastrous ending in Owens.

[tpols]

Ceedee isn't the problem on Dallas. Their defense being crippled with injuries, no run game, shit coach, and to a lesser extent their QB is. If you put current season Kupp on Dallas it wouldn't change one single thing in terms of their record. Guy hasn't even played half the year.

[Neal Romer]

Ceedee isn't the problem on Dallas. Their defense being crippled with injuries, no run game, shit coach, and to a lesser extent their QB is. If you put current season Kupp on Dallas it wouldn't change one single thing in terms of their record. Guy hasn't even played half the year.

Lamb isnt the only problem but his attitude is a little part of the problem. And when you fill your team with guys who all contribute a little part of the problem mentally, it adds up. And youre just way less likely to be the last team standing that way.

[Charlie Sheen]

Exactly. And Karl's been making a fool of himself continuing to make these comments over and over.

I dont think anyone would be quick to hire him after the way hes dragged out his discontentment so publicly for so long.

I think that is the boring answer to the question you asked. The organizations with solid structure are going to limit their investments in high risk profiles and be better equipped to manage them.

When Mahomes was in his first season as a starter the Chiefs dumped Kareem Hunt... a guy who was on his way to a second straight 1k rushing season to begin his career. Later when Mahomes established himself in the league the chiefs could afford to take chances on a knucklehead like Kadarius Toney when they needed an infusion of talent at wr.

[BarberSchool]

There really isn’t a standardized, or consistent way to predict returns on investment for these types of talent, across the board.

It’s all highly dependent on other variables within the organization, such as:

1. Can their system feature simplified roles which perfectly suit the low IQ talent?

2. Can their coaches manage the childlike mentalities and personalities, to avoid chemistry destruction and maintain a good locker room atmosphere ?

3. Can the player’s circles and agent manage their off the court/field impulsive idiocy to avoid damaging the health and/or marketability of such talent ?

Etc

Football, especially defensive football, will always have more leeway for this type of talent than any other professional sport. You just have to utilize these types in roles of pursuing aggression, where they don’t have to make decisions based on what they see the opponent doing, they just have to attack downhill, over and over.

Just like warfare. The truly elite hand-eye coordination guys are fewer, and higher value, as snipers and pilots and such. The brainless aggressive room temp IQ MF’s are expendable.

[Im Still Ballin]

There really isn’t a standardized, or consistent way to predict returns on investment for these types of talent, across the board.

It’s all highly dependent on other variables within the organization, such as:

1. Can their system feature simplified roles which perfectly suit the low IQ talent?

2. Can their coaches manage the childlike mentalities and personalities, to avoid chemistry destruction and maintain a good locker room atmosphere ?

3. Can the player’s circles and agent manage their off the court/field impulsive idiocy to avoid damaging the health and/or marketability of such talent ?

Etc

Football, especially defensive football, will always have more leeway for this type of talent than any other professional sport. You just have to utilize these types in roles of pursuing aggression, where they don’t have to make decisions based on what they see the opponent doing, they just have to attack downhill, over and over.

Just like warfare. The truly elite hand-eye coordination guys are fewer, and higher value, as snipers and pilots and such. The brainless aggressive room temp IQ MF’s are expendable.

:applause:

The Wikipedia page on the Wonderlic test even kind of says this. It's actually beneficial to have some low IQ dudes in certain roles. You need a few pawns/dummies to manipulate/control/take advantage of:


The Lyons study also found that the relationship between Wonderlic test scores and future NFL performance was negative for a few positions, indicating the higher a player scores on the Wonderlic test, the worse the player will perform in the NFL. For tight ends and defensive backs, it was found that lower scores indicated increased achievements. According to Pat McInally, who was selected by the Cincinnati Bengals in the fifth round of the 1975 NFL draft, George Young told him that his perfect score caused him to be selected later than he would have otherwise. NFL reporter Matt Verderame reported that New England Patriots offensive lineman Joe Thuney avoided answering Wonderlic questions so he would not score too high. McInally speculated that "coaches and front-office guys don't like extremes one way or the other, but particularly not on the high side. I think they think guys who are intelligent will challenge authority too much". Mike Florio of Profootballtalk.com agreed with McInally:

Scoring too high can be as much of a problem as scoring too low. Football coaches want to command the locker room. Being smarter than the individual players makes that easier. Having a guy in the locker room who may be smarter than every member of the coaching staff can be viewed as a problem – or at a minimum as a threat to the egos of the men who hope to be able when necessary to outsmart the players, especially when trying in some way to manipulate them.

[Neal Romer]

:applause:

The Wikipedia page on the Wonderlic test even kind of says this. It's actually beneficial to have some low IQ dudes in certain roles. You need a few pawns/dummies to manipulate/control/take advantage of:

Some of that makes sense but the Tight End thing for instance is misleading. A few Kellen Winslow Jrs and Aaron Hernandez's in the data set can really skew the valuations. Because those guys are dumb but very productive WHEN theyre on the field, and thats all the correlation is measuring. It doesnt take into account how often theyre getting suspended or disrupting the locker room or being arrested for rape and murder respectively. These things ultimately make them a bad investment for your team, both in terms of draft picks and money, but you wouldnt be able to tell that just by seeing the correlation between their wonderlic and yards per catch.

Thats what Im saying. It's not JUST about statistical production. It doesnt show up in the standard stat sheet how often a player gets flagged for something stupid in a crucial moment. Or gets benched for a locker room incident. Or has to be traded because hes a nightmare to work with. He can have good looking stats and still screw up your team.

Teams draft these guys with the hubris of thinking it's gonna be best case scenario, and it virtually never is.

[90sgoat]

There really isn’t a standardized, or consistent way to predict returns on investment for these types of talent, across the board.

It’s all highly dependent on other variables within the organization, such as:

1. Can their system feature simplified roles which perfectly suit the low IQ talent?

2. Can their coaches manage the childlike mentalities and personalities, to avoid chemistry destruction and maintain a good locker room atmosphere ?

3. Can the player’s circles and agent manage their off the court/field impulsive idiocy to avoid damaging the health and/or marketability of such talent ?

Etc


Yeah it's about being realistic about what you're dealing with and finding good roles.

Players like Ben Wallace were very useful why someone like Jermaine O'Neal was not. Wallace had a defined role and O'Neal tried to be more than he could. Iverson delivered when relegated to a clear role, Steve Francis and Gilbert Arenas self destructed with too much freedom. Rodman in Detroit and Chicago.

One issue is that players don't spend time in college anymore, which is where the dumdums are often exposed. Everyone should have known Ben Simmons would fail because he failed in college.

The NBA should change it's rookie salaries to reflect experience, so that a rookie that stayed 4 years in college or played 4 years abroad should be able for a more lucrative contract.