No one can TOUCH GOAT JOKIC

[StrongLurk]

This will be his 5th straight year leading the NBA in VORP, PER, BPM, and WS/48 in all likelihood. Only LeBron and Jordan have ever led all four categories for 5 consecutive years.

Only LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, and Joker have even done it four years in a row. GOAT peak and GOAT player of the 2020's era so far.

Jokic so far this year is 2nd in points, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

He's acquired a repeating for not caring much about basketball. I don't buy it. You don't get a good as he is without working extremely hard. He just doesn't care for weights and maybe likes beer. A lot.

[bdonovan]

This will be his 5th straight year leading the NBA in VORP, PER, BPM, and WS/48 in all likelihood. Only LeBron and Jordan have ever led all four categories for 5 consecutive years.

Only LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, and Joker have even done it four years in a row. GOAT peak and GOAT player of the 2020's era so far.

Jokic so far this year is 2nd in points, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists too.

Basketball isn't about racking up stats. Westbrook won MVP based on stats and was never in actuality a top player.

Stats are often deeply flawed; for example PER undervalues defense, and over-values PF/C positions by valuing rebounds. As I've said before, defensive rebounds should not even count as a stat.

Jokic's status as a great player will be cemented if he leads in the intangibles that cause a player to take his team to the next level. One and done- that's it. He has yet to prove himself; he's still young.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You're talking about him as if he hasn't already won a championship.

[highwhey]

He's acquired a repeating for not caring much about basketball. I don't buy it. You don't get a good as he is without working extremely hard. He just doesn't care for weights and maybe likes beer. A lot.

that sh1t is an act. the entire eastern euro stoic persona has got to go. he's pretending not to care, while he actually cares. tubby loses his cool every so often bc he cares deeply.

[tontoz]

Basketball isn't about racking up stats. Westbrook won MVP based on stats and was never in actuality a top player.

Stats are often deeply flawed; for example PER undervalues defense, and over-values PF/C positions by valuing rebounds. As I've said before, defensive rebounds should not even count as a stat.

Jokic's status as a great player will be cemented if he leads in the intangibles that cause a player to take his team to the next level. One and done- that's it. He has yet to prove himself; he's still young.



He's won 3 MVPs, a ring and a FMVP but he hasn't proven himself?

:oldlol:

[Kblaze8855]

Im sure he cares just doesn’t make it his everything the way somebody like Kobe was willing to. Not everybody who is the best at their job, prioritize it over all other things in life. It’s obviously a hard thing to judge, but I wonder how often the best player in the league was also doing the most work To get there and maintain that spot.

Some obviously weren’t like Shaq. Some like Jordan Kobe and bird at least my reputation would have to be in the conversation.

I don’t know if Kareem was doing more extra work than somebody who is a gym built monster skill guy like Pete Maravich. He was far far better than him, but if you listen to him talk or read his books, he had many other interests And didn’t see basketball as terribly important.

Now that I think about it even the tremendously skilled big guys rarely get the reputation as all in hard workers.

Jaimee went from just being big with no background in basketball to being so skilled he was teaching other supremely skilled smaller players. Sure he was an athlete, but when somebody like Kobe in his prime is coming to you to learn skills? You did something right.

I just think because of the size we don’t tend to credit big man as having to work so hard. But these days the top bigs are expected to have some guard skills so that’s changing. Embiid also did a relative late transition from just being big to being supremely skilled. And a lot of them like Jokic and AD I had late growth spurts changed them from wings to bigs so that helps.

None of them will ever likely get that full guard credit as far as what it takes to become great.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird. Ultimately though, winning multiple times is required to be in the top ten all time (doesn't matter if its fair or not). But if Jokic gets one more ring/FMVP then he is instantly top ten all time.

[Kblaze8855]

I get why people make the comparison, but he isn’t that similar to Bird. They are both really unique. Bird was a bigger better shooting less athletic Kobe, but much more inclined to make the quick decision to pass. Also a really really physical rebounder. Kinda sounds like Jokic but Bird had way more “**** it…” in him. And he was waaaaaay quicker than his modern reputation. Bird would face up and blow by people who were good athletes. He couldn’t outrun them, but he might beat them 5 feet to the basket on a regular basis. Bird was like a mix of Kobe, Dirk, and Mark Jackson.

Jokic is like what Sabonis would be born a couple decades later. But also less athletic. It’s hard to come up with a good comparison that doesn’t lean on skin color.

His moves around the basket and just the way he lays it up is so distinctly European. it’s like watching young Sabonis just turning and flipping some bullshit towards the basket almost from above. But he moves both fluid…and stiff at the same time. Like an agile sky scraper.

I think if Sabonis were born in 1990 And stay healthy his final form would look closer to Jokic now than Bird was. But you can’t just implant non existent ball handling or off the dribble shooting.

Jokic is like….a bigger version of what Derrick Coleman should have been.

Every comparison feels off though.


you would have to take peak Derick Coleman and mix him with kings Chris Webber extract the result and inject it into 1995 Sabonis And send him to a hypnotist to convince him he were Mark Price after an inexplicable growth spurt.

That might do it.

[Kblaze8855]

Oh, and how often do you see this?

https://x.com/runitbackfdtv/status/1854586660559757422?s=46&t=6wC01e_jvrTUpW4eOxrXKA

Lou Williams explaining immediately that he was wrong about Jokic one day later. “I bumped my head”.

[StrongLurk]

I get why people make the comparison, but he isn’t that similar to Bird. They are both really unique. Bird was a bigger better shooting less athletic Kobe, but much more inclined to make the quick decision to pass. Also a really really physical rebounder. Kinda sounds like Jokic but Bird had way more “**** it…” in him. And he was waaaaaay quicker than his modern reputation. Bird would face up and blow by people who were good athletes. He couldn’t outrun them, but he might beat them 5 feet to the basket on a regular basis. Bird was like a mix of Kobe, Dirk, and Mark Jackson.

Jokic is like what Sabonis would be born a couple decades later. But also less athletic. It’s hard to come up with a good comparison that doesn’t lean on skin color.

His moves around the basket and just the way he lays it up is so distinctly European. it’s like watching young Sabonis just turning and flipping some bullshit towards the basket almost from above. But he moves both fluid…and stiff at the same time. Like an agile sky scraper.

I think if Sabonis were born in 1990 And stay healthy his final form would look closer to Jokic now than Bird was. But you can’t just implant non existent ball handling or off the dribble shooting.

Jokic is like….a bigger version of what Derrick Coleman should have been.

Every comparison feels off though.


you would have to take peak Derick Coleman and mix him with kings Chris Webber extract the result and inject it into 1995 Sabonis And send him to a hypnotist to convince him he were Mark Price after an inexplicable growth spurt.

That might do it.

By better Larry Bird, I basically mean bigger Larry Bird. So the C version of Bird. They have uncanny similarities in their basketball game especially when looking at their peaks. Even peak to peak though, by eye test and ALL METRICS, Jokic is > Bird.

[Mask the Embiid]

idk.... looked like embiid touched his ass up in the metal round if i can remember correctly.... Couldnt score on em

[Kblaze8855]

By better Larry Bird, I basically mean bigger Larry Bird. So the C version of Bird. They have uncanny similarities in their basketball game especially when looking at their peaks. Even peak to peak though, by eye test and ALL METRICS, Jokic is > Bird.

Aside from both being great passers and both being able to shoot I wouldn’t say they have uncanny similarities. And even the passing isn’t the same variety due to era differences putting teammates in very different places.

Young Bird played and moved like a big wing. Jokic moves like a true big. Metrics to me aren’t worth talking about. Not across eras. I just don’t get anything out of that and if you do, there is little room in the middle and it stops being about the players and starts being about the merits of cross era numbers that don’t need repeating.

Eye test? I really haven’t seen anybody I thought was better than bird. There are people I acknowledge you can make the case for largely because he lags so far behind in defense to the all timers on that end. And some of those all timers are also all timers on offense. So I can acknowledge the validity of that approach and still say I saw a few of them play him on the same floor and those difference just weren’t apparent.

Some people are just more than the sum of their parts and Larry might be the best example of it in basketball. Duncan is another but obviously in a different way.

[Im Still Ballin]

Kevin McHale doesn't like the Bird-Jokic comparison:


"I laugh; someone was saying he plays like Larry Bird," McHale said last year. "No, he doesn't. He plays like a big guy with great vision — like Bill Walton-type vision."

...

"Larry plays from your standard triple-threat position in front of you. Jokic plays like a big guy with the ball on top his head."

I saw someone collect all the available pre-injury Arvydas Sabonis footage and do a scouting report. I think they compared him to Walton - a bigger, more athletic, better shooting, and more skilled Walton.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_HYK5eels0&ab_channel=FreeDawkins

[Mask the Embiid]

idk.... looked like embiid touched his ass up in the metal round if i can remember correctly.... Couldnt score on em

medal obviously....just clearing it up before the jackasses come in here......

[90sgoat]

that sh1t is an act. the entire eastern euro stoic persona has got to go. he's pretending not to care, while he actually cares. tubby loses his cool every so often bc he cares deeply.

Jokic isn't even pretending not to care, he is just that way because he finds the american media lame and not interested in being a social media star.

[Kblaze8855]

Kevin McHale doesn't like the Bird-Jokic comparison:



I saw someone collect all the available pre-injury Arvydas Sabonis footage and do a scouting report. I think they compared him to Walton - a bigger, more athletic, better shooting, and more skilled Walton.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_HYK5eels0&ab_channel=FreeDawkins


yeah, they really aren’t as similar as a lot of people who didn’t see Bird seem to think. They are both supremely skilled, but if one of them were black, I don’t think it would be the first comparison made just off style.

[Neal Romer]

Ive always said hes got a lot of similarities to Zbo as a scorer. Both are heavier guys, quick feet, old man game with feathery touch in the paint. Both rarely dunk. Theyve even got a similar form in their jump shot.

Both like to play physical. If we ever saw two guys from today's game doing this before a game I could see Jokic being one of them


https://youtu.be/gBoTggz8zQs?si=bG4JBAOnTZ1kfsuh

[ralph_i_el]

Ive always said hes got a lot of similarities to Zbo as a scorer. Both are heavier guys, quick feet, old man game with feathery touch in the paint. Both rarely dunk. Theyve even got a similar form in their jump shot.

Both like to play physical. If we ever saw two guys from today's game doing this before a game I could see Jokic being one of them


https://youtu.be/gBoTggz8zQs?si=bG4JBAOnTZ1kfsuh

Good comp. The secret sauce is that Zbo was kind of a black hole, whereas Jokic is a top tier passer.

[Neal Romer]

Good comp. The secret sauce is that Zbo was kind of a black hole, whereas Jokic is a top tier passer.

Yeah as passers theres no comparison, altho Zbo got better at finding cutters during his time in Memphis. But clearly not Jokic in that regard. But as scorers they play a pretty similar game.

[3ba11]

This will be his 5th straight year leading the NBA in VORP, PER, BPM, and WS/48 in all likelihood. Only LeBron and Jordan have ever led all four categories for 5 consecutive years.

Only LeBron, Jordan, Kareem, and Joker have even done it four years in a row. GOAT peak and GOAT player of the 2020's era so far.

Jokic so far this year is 2nd in points, 1st in rebounds, 2nd in assists too.


Jordan did it while winning titles, scoring champ and 1st team defense, so his peak is the best based on winning and the best-ever 2-way play (scoring champ + 1st team defense)

[ShawkFactory]

yeah, they really aren’t as similar as a lot of people who didn’t see Bird seem to think. They are both supremely skilled, but if one of them were black, I don’t think it would be the first comparison made just off style.

I don't understand the comparison at all. Well I guess I do cause whiteness but outside of that? Nah.

I wasn't around in the 80s but have watched a ton of full game footage of the Celtics in that era. Bird played with a ton of restraint at times when necessary but he was an all-time shot-maker.

He was more like a physical and better-passing Dirk than Jokic.

[bdonovan]

He's won 3 MVPs, a ring and a FMVP but he hasn't proven himself?

:oldlol:

MVP is an individual accomplishment. My post was specifically about elevating your team. Re-read.

Karl Malone got 2 MVPs, never had what it took to elevate his team. Not one of the best to have played.

The greatest players weren't one and done with finals rings. It's about consistency. Kobe, Steph, LeBron, Jordan. He's still young but he has to show he can do it over and again to be considered GOAT.

[Neal Romer]

MVP is an individual accomplishment. My post was specifically about elevating your team. Re-read.

Karl Malone got 2 MVPs, never had what it took to elevate his team. Not one of the best to have played.

The greatest players weren't one and done with finals rings. It's about consistency. Kobe, Steph, LeBron, Jordan. He's still young but he has to show he can do it over and again to be considered GOAT.

AND Pippen, Horry, Havlicek, and so on.

[tontoz]

MVP is an individual accomplishment. My post was specifically about elevating your team. Re-read.

Karl Malone got 2 MVPs, never had what it took to elevate his team. Not one of the best to have played.

The greatest players weren't one and done with finals rings. It's about consistency. Kobe, Steph, LeBron, Jordan. He's still young but he has to show he can do it over and again to be considered GOAT.


Jokic won 48 games with Will Barton/Monte Morris/Jeff Green in the starting lineup. He won a playoff series with Frank compazzo and Austin Rivers ( who they picked up mid season off waivers) in the starting lineup.

Who else in the league could do that? The ability to elevate teammates is a big reason he has 3 MVPs.

He didn't have to collude with other All NBA players to win a title. None of his teammates have been All Stars.

[hold this L]

Jokic won 48 games with Will Barton/Monte Morris/Jeff Green in the starting lineup. He won a playoff series with Frank compazzo and Austin Rivers ( who they picked up mid season off waivers) in the starting lineup.

Who else in the league could do that? The ability to elevate teammates is a big reason he has 3 MVPs.

He didn't have to collude with other All NBA players to win a title. None of his teammates have been All Stars.
Jokic winning an MVP while being 6th in the West was pathetic and a joke. Should have never happened. Same with Westbrick and Kareem. You shouldn't be getting MVPs when your team results are trash.

[tontoz]

Jokic winning an MVP while being 6th in the West was pathetic and a joke. Should have never happened. Same with Westbrick and Kareem. You shouldn't be getting MVPs when your team results are trash.



48 wins with that roster was practically a miracle. It was one of the best examples in recent years of a player elevating his teammates.

[Neal Romer]

Jokic winning an MVP while being 6th in the West was pathetic and a joke. Should have never happened. Same with Westbrick and Kareem. You shouldn't be getting MVPs when your team results are trash.


This kind of 'thinking' avoids all discussion of how the player himself impacts the game.

It argues for individual players based on their circumstances. It doesnt even address HOW they play basketball. Imagine discussing players greatness and not even mentioning HOW they play basketball.

"Well this guy does this really well which puts pressure on defense this way, and this other guy does x which offers a more valuable dynamic because it forces opponents..."

Thats how you give an opinion on why YOU think someone is better. Otherwise youre just using LCD buzz words and talking points.

'Team X gooder than Team Y!' is kinda the equivalent of Orange Man Bad. It doesnt say anything relevant. It's what the masses use who dont really know how to articulate things that matter. It's like a hot pocket. It's not good, it's just accessible to everyone. Thats why you see it everywhere.

[Duffy Pratt]

MVP is an individual accomplishment. My post was specifically about elevating your team. Re-read.

Karl Malone got 2 MVPs, never had what it took to elevate his team. Not one of the best to have played.

The greatest players weren't one and done with finals rings. It's about consistency. Kobe, Steph, LeBron, Jordan. He's still young but he has to show he can do it over and again to be considered GOAT.

Which of the greatest players has won more than once (or even once) without ever playing with another all star.