1987-1991 -- Rank Jordan vs. Magic

[dankok8]

Rank Jordan vs. Magic each year from 1987-1991.

Mine would be:

1987 - Magic (easily)
1988 - Jordan
1989 - Jordan
1990 - Jordan
1991 - Jordan (easily)

[SouBeachTalents]

I mean, is anyone going to disagree with this :lol

[Hey Yo]

87 is when Magic got the green light to look to score first.... his 8th year in the league.

[Phoenix]

How are we measuring this? Because MJ was probably a better individual player than Magic in 87 too.

[iamgine]

1987 - Jordan (easily)
1988 - Jordan (easily)
1989 - Jordan (easily)
1990 - Jordan (easily)
1991 - Jordan (easily)

[ArbitraryWater]

Why?

Seems to be a pretty easy discussion.

1987 is clearly Magic, and after that its all clearly MJ.

[3ba11]

Rookie MJ was superior to Magic but simply didn't have Kareem and the most stacked cast ever - rookie MJ would never lose with Kareem... Magic is only 5-4 in the Finals with Kareem and the most stacked cast ever, which is bad.

Most people don't realize that the Bulls' front office was pleasantly surprised when MJ came back from injury in 86' in GOAT form, so they cleaned house heading into the 87' season - they got rid of the 1st and 2nd options from MJ's injury year (Woolridge and Gervin), so the 87' cast was worse than Jordan's rookie cast in 85'.....

Despite having the worst cast in the league, MJ led the Bulls to basically a .500 record by putting up 50% more burden than Ant has right now (36% of team points to 24% for Ant) - this is an MVP load that destroys Magic, whose 87' Lakers are the most stacked cast of all-time... Accordingly, MJ deserved MVP over Magic, and also DPOY over Michael Cooper and MVP over Magic... This isn't an uncommon take.

[Carbine]

Magic and the Lakers lost to three dynasties, so while the Lakers were stacked...the opponents they were playing were also of that level. No shame losing to that, just like Lebron losing to the Warriors with Durant (except Lebron didn't have comparable cast to the Warriors)

[3ba11]

Magic and the Lakers lost to three dynasties, so while the Lakers were stacked...the opponents they were playing were also of that level. No shame losing to that, just like Lebron losing to the Warriors with Durant (except Lebron didn't have comparable cast to the Warriors)


first of all, Magic had the most stacked team ever in 87', so it's simply impossible that he was the most valuable player in the league - it's absurd.. Otoh, MJ had the worst cast in the league and was tasked with building them into champions - so given his stats, he was clearly the MVP in 87'... And the DPOY.

Secondly, any loss with a super-team is bad, even if its to another super-team, so Magic has no excuse for losing with super-teams, if we're holding him to the Jordan standard... When jordan had a 2-star team, he never lost to another 2-star team and beat many teams that had 3 all-stars - Jordan's standard was to be unbeatable with a star teammate, while Magic mostly lost with 2 and 3 star teammates.

again, the goat standard is to be unbeatable with 1 other star, so Magic falls ridiculously short of this... He's a little overrated in the annals of history by virtue of having the most stacked casts of all-time, but losing more than winning - that's a big difference from being unbeatable with 1 other star like MJ was.

[Neal Romer]

1987 - Magic, Bird
1988 - Magic, Bird, Pippen
1989 - Pippen (easily)
1990 - Pippen (easily)
1991 - Pippen (easily)



I mean is anyone really gonna argue with this??

[3ba11]

Bird and Magic's super-teams could barely handle Detroit and lost to Detroit

Otoh, the instant Jordan got 1 all-star, he instantly swept Detroit with 1 other star

What more proof do we need of the massive chasm between Magic/Bird and MJ???... :confusedshrug:

Compared to Jordan, Magic is a bum for ever losing with Kareem, and Magic lost with Kareem more than he won, while also having Worthy... Heck, Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with 9 ppg from "migraine" Pippen, so he would destroy them with "bad boy killer" James Worthy, who dominated the Bad Boys at goat levels.

[Axe]

Bird and Magic's super-teams could barely handle Detroit and lost to Detroit

Otoh, the instant Jordan got 1 all-star, he instantly swept Detroit with 1 other star

What more proof do we need of the massive chasm between Magic/Bird and MJ???... :confusedshrug:

Compared to Jordan, Magic is a bum for ever losing with Kareem, and Magic lost with Kareem more than he won, while also having Worthy... Heck, Jordan nearly beat the 89' Pistons with 9 ppg from "migraine" Pippen, so he would destroy them with "bad boy killer" James Worthy, who dominated the Bad Boys at goat levels.
With or without the flagrant foul rule change?

[3ba11]

With or without the flagrant foul rule change?


Against the Bad Boys, Jordan was just as competitive no help in 89' and 90' as Magic/Bird were with his super-teams in 88'.. Infact, Jordan was more competitive with nothing than Bird was with a super-team in 88'.

Then he swept the Bad Boys the instant he got 1 other star, while Bird and Magic's super-teams were losing and could barely handle the Bad Boys - this shows how much better Jordan was than Bird and Magic.

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic & Bird both beat the prime version of those Pistons, Jordan had to wait for them to drop off from a 60 win juggernaut to a 50 win team running on fumes, and needed Pippen to outscore everyone on the Pistons in order to finally beat them. Very typical of all his titles, he waited for all the juggernauts of the 80's to fall off in Boston, Detroit & LA before he could even sniff a title, then slinked away before the dynasties of the Lakers & Spurs took form in the 2000's.

[3ba11]

Magic & Bird both beat the prime version of those Pistons, Jordan had to wait for them to drop off from a 60 win juggernaut to a 50 win team running on fumes, and needed Pippen to outscore everyone on the Pistons in order to finally beat them. Very typical of all his titles, he waited for all the juggernauts of the 80's to fall off in Boston, Detroit & LA before he could even sniff a title, then slinked away before the dynasties of the Lakers & Spurs took form in the 2000's.


Firstly, Isiah got hurt in the 88' Finals, so MJ was more competitive against the Pistons with no help than Magic was with a super-team... Specifically, Magic won the 88' Finals by 1 possession over an injured Detroit team that didn't have Isiah (they would've lost if Isiah was healthy similar to the 19' Warriors with KD), so that's less competitive than MJ nearly beating the healthy version of Detroit in 89' or 90' despite no help and no super-team like Magic had.

Secondly, MJ was more competitive with no help against the Pistons in 89' and 90', than Bird was with a super-team in 88'.

Ultimately, Bird and Magic had super-teams that were struggling and losing to Detroit, while Jordan was carrying a 1-man team to the same competitiveness that Bird and Magic's super-teams had.

[SouBeachTalents]

Firstly, Isiah got hurt in the 88' Finals, so MJ was more competitive against the Pistons with no help than Magic was with a super-team... Specifically, Magic won the 88' Finals by 1 possession over an injured Detroit team that didn't have Isiah (they would've lost if Isiah was healthy similar to the 19' Warriors with KD), so that's less competitive than MJ nearly beating the healthy version of Detroit in 89' or 90' despite no help and no super-team like Magic had.

Secondly, MJ was more competitive with no help against the Pistons in 89' and 90', than Bird was with a super-team in 88'.

Ultimately, Bird and Magic had super-teams that were struggling and losing to Detroit, while Jordan was carrying a 1-man team to the same competitiveness that Bird and Magic's super-teams had.
1-9

[bizil]

The ONLY TIME Magic and Bird were better than MJ was his rookie year. But even AT THAT POINT, MJ was ALREADY the best ALL AROUND perimeter player in the world if you combined scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense as a package.

Once that 86-87 season hit, MJ was the best player on the planet at that point PERIOD. There was a REASON why Bobby Knight called MJ the best player he had ever seen PERIOD before MJ EVER hit the NBA. After MJ's rookie year, he was ALREADY the third best player in the league in my opinion. ONLY BEHIND Magic and Bird. Kareem and Doc were past their primes. Moses was still dominant was likely a tad bit past his peak. The fact MJ was BETTER than prime Magic and Bird (the top two perimeter players peak wise of all time at that point, soon to be the GOAT perimeter players as well too) SO EARLY in his career mean his was gonna be the GOAT at record pace.

[bizil]

When you look at the top 12 GOAT guys, MJ BY FAR had the weakest supporting cast for his title teams:

MJ
Bron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Steph
KD

These are the top 12 GOAT in my opinion (no partiucular order other than the top 4). The best scorers MJ played with in his prime were guys like Pip, Orlando Woolridge, Kukoc, and Horace Grant. NONE OF THOSE GUYS were alpha dog level scorers. Pip and Rodman were the only HOF level players he played with that were in their primes.

IBecause that Bulls team from 1-12 WAS ACTUALLY inferior to many NBA title teams depth wise. BUT they were lucky to have the GOAT in MJ AND a player who revolutionized his position (was the point forward foundation that G Hill and later Bron to the next level) in Pip. Those two could were freak athletes who could cover up so many gaps that it SUPERCEDED their issues.

[SouBeachTalents]

When you look at the top 12 GOAT guys, MJ BY FAR had the weakest supporting cast for his title teams:

MJ
Bron
Kareem
Magic
Kobe
Wilt
Russell
Bird
Shaq
Duncan
Steph
KD

These are the top 12 GOAT in my opinion (no partiucular order other than the top 4). The best scorers MJ played with in his prime were guys like Pip, Orlando Woolridge, Kukoc, and Horace Grant. NONE OF THOSE GUYS were alpha dog level scorers. Pip and Rodman were the only HOF level players he played with that were in their primes.

IBecause that Bulls team from 1-12 WAS ACTUALLY inferior to many NBA title teams depth wise. BUT they were lucky to have the GOAT in MJ AND a player who revolutionized his position (was the point forward foundation that G Hill and later Bron to the next level) in Pip. Those two could were freak athletes who could cover up so many gaps that it SUPERCEDED their issues.
Jordan's team won 55 games without him, he consistently had the best sidekick in the league, and at one point had 3 HOF teammates and another at coach, so I'm honestly not seeing his supporting cast being so much worse than everybody else's. Even if you did believe that, he absolutely had a stacked cast for his era, which is what's truly most important when evaluating supporting casts.

Also, having KD ranked ahead of Hakeem is fvcking insane.

[bizil]

Jordan's team won 55 games without him, he consistently had the best sidekick in the league, and at one point had 3 HOF teammates and another at coach, so I'm honestly not seeing his supporting cast being so much worse than everybody else's. Even if you did believe that, he absolutely had a stacked cast for his era, which is what's truly most important when evaluating supporting casts.

Also, having KD ranked ahead of Hakeem is fvcking insane.

Who are the 3 HOF teammates MJ played with who were in their primes? And KUKOC DOESN'T COUNT! If you take away Kukoc's international career, he doesn't come close to the HOF! Pip and Rodman are the ONLY TWO HOFers in their prime that MJ played with. And to top it off, NEITHER was an alpha dog level scorer! BUT you had the GOAT in MJ, the most versatile SF of all time (at that time) in Pip, and arguably the greatest rebounding and defensive forward of all time in Rodman. And before Rodman, you had Ho Grant. A very solid (but not perennial All Star material) at the PF who could get you 15 and 11 with elite defense.

And teams have DIFFERENT FORMULAS for becoming champions and dynasties. They all do it different. But make NO MISTAKE, MJ had the LEAST AMOUNT of elite scoring help around him AMONG the top 12 GOAT guys. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE! Bron had Wade, AD, Bosh, Kyrie, and K Love around for example. For MJ's title teams, his top scoring help were Pip, Ho Grant, and Kukoc. THERE IS NO DAMN COMPARISON!!!

And having KD over the Dream on a GOAT list isn't INSANE! KD has FOR DAMN SURE done enough to rated over the Dream on a GOAT list. BUT I won't argue if somebody has Dream over KD though. But having one over the other isn't insane at all!

[ArbitraryWater]

Who are the 3 HOF teammates MJ played with who were in their primes? And KUKOC DOESN'T COUNT! If you take away Kukoc's international career, he doesn't come close to the HOF! Pip and Rodman are the ONLY TWO HOFers in their prime that MJ played with. And to top it off, NEITHER was an alpha dog level scorer! BUT you had the GOAT in MJ, the most versatile SF of all time (at that time) in Pip, and arguably the greatest rebounding and defensive forward of all time in Rodman. And before Rodman, you had Ho Grant. A very solid (but not perennial All Star material) at the PF who could get you 15 and 11 with elite defense.

And teams have DIFFERENT FORMULAS for becoming champions and dynasties. They all do it different. But make NO MISTAKE, MJ had the LEAST AMOUNT of elite scoring help around him AMONG the top 12 GOAT guys. It's NOT EVEN CLOSE! Bron had Wade, AD, Bosh, Kyrie, and K Love around for example. For MJ's title teams, his top scoring help were Pip, Ho Grant, and Kukoc. THERE IS NO DAMN COMPARISON!!!

And having KD over the Dream on a GOAT list isn't INSANE! KD has FOR DAMN SURE done enough to rated over the Dream on a GOAT list. BUT I won't argue if somebody has Dream over KD though. But having one over the other isn't insane at all!


What HoF teammates did Drexler have? Barkley? Payton? Malone?

What were their combined HoF teammates?

Your shtick is outdated.

[bizil]

What HoF teammates did Drexler have? Barkley? Payton? Malone?

What were their combined HoF teammates?

Your shtick is outdated.


The FACT REMAINS what I said WAS TRUE! MJ had the least amount of scoring help among the top 12 GOAT players. That's all I said!! LEARN TO COMPREHEND SHIT!!! And your MOM'S DICK SUCKING SKILLS ARE OUTDATED!!! You making it personal calling my posts A SHTICK!! I got too much hoops knowledge and FACTS IN MY POSTS to be outdated!

Prime Drexler played with the Dream! When did MJ EVER played with somebody on the level of Dream?? Barkley got to play with tailend prime Dr. J, Moses, Dream, Drexler, Pippen, KJ, Thunder Dan, etc. Payton in his prime played with MORE scoring help than MJ did. Same thing with Karl Malone. When did MJ EVER have that type of star power AROUND HIM! It's not about being an HOFer all the time. Being a multiple time All Star in the league is STILL a great feat! Drexler's teams in Portland EASILY had more scoring help than MJ ever had in Chicago. THESE ARE FACTS!!!

In my posts, I didn't make it ONLY ABOUT HOF type of teammates. I ALSO MENTIONED guys who were very good TO GREAT SCORERS as teammates. Whether you slice it up to HOF teammates in their prime OR very good to great scoring help for him, MJ PLAYED WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EITHER GROUP AMONG the top 12 GOAT level legends! THAT"S A FACT!!!! I specifically said AMONG THE TOP 12 GOAT GUYS! Why in the hell did u bring up Drexler, Barkley, Payton, and Malone? They aren't the tier of legends I was talking about to begin with!

[Phoenix]

And having KD over the Dream on a GOAT list isn't INSANE! KD has FOR DAMN SURE done enough to rated over the Dream on a GOAT list. BUT I won't argue if somebody has Dream over KD though. But having one over the other isn't insane at all!

In general, I'd argue both KD and Hakeem are top 10 in terms of talent/ability/skillset. Statwise, about as good as it gets for their respective positions and roles. Both are one time MVPs. Hakeem gets the nod for me being, I would say inarguably, one of the top 5 defensive players in the history of the game, while being a dominant offensive player. I also would say Hakeem's title runs, especially 95( which does alot of the heavy lifting for his legacy) trump KDs runs because while he was the finals MVP both times, KD outside of that period hasn't shown that he can actually lead a team to a title. Steph was very clearly the heart and soul of that team, Draymond its emotional leader, whereas KD really came in and 'just played ball' and pretty much upended any competitive balance until he left. Of course, there's always the counter argument that Hakeem didn't win titles until MJ left( I would contend that the 95 Rockets would have beaten the Bulls had they met), so if you removed titles from both I would still say Hakeem had the higher peak and better overall individual accolades.

[1987_Lakers]

The FACT REMAINS what I said WAS TRUE! MJ had the least amount of scoring help among the top 12 GOAT players. That's all I said!! LEARN TO COMPREHEND SHIT!!! And your MOM'S DICK SUCKING SKILLS ARE OUTDATED!!! You making it personal calling my posts A SHTICK!! I got too much hoops knowledge and FACTS IN MY POSTS to be outdated!

Prime Drexler played with the Dream! When did MJ EVER played with somebody on the level of Dream?? Barkley got to play with tailend prime Dr. J, Moses, Dream, Drexler, Pippen, KJ, Thunder Dan, etc. Payton in his prime played with MORE scoring help than MJ did. Same thing with Karl Malone. When did MJ EVER have that type of star power AROUND HIM! It's not about being an HOFer all the time. Being a multiple time All Star in the league is STILL a great feat! Drexler's teams in Portland EASILY had more scoring help than MJ ever had in Chicago. THESE ARE FACTS!!!

In my posts, I didn't make it ONLY ABOUT HOF type of teammates. I ALSO MENTIONED guys who were very good TO GREAT SCORERS as teammates. Whether you slice it up to HOF teammates in their prime OR very good to great scoring help for him, MJ PLAYED WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EITHER GROUP AMONG the top 12 GOAT level legends! THAT"S A FACT!!!! I specifically said AMONG THE TOP 12 GOAT GUYS! Why in the hell did u bring up Drexler, Barkley, Payton, and Malone? They aren't the tier of legends I was talking about to begin with!

Are you kidding me? Most of those guys were past their prime when Barkley played with them. :oldlol:

[1987_Lakers]

first of all, Magic had the most stacked team ever in 87', so it's simply impossible that he was the most valuable player in the league - it's absurd.. Otoh

I'm seeing a lot of bad takes in this thread. '87 Lakers most stacked team ever? Kareem turned 40 that season and wasn't even dropping 20 PPG.

Magic upped his scoring that season which resulted in the best season of his career and led his team to 65 wins. It's absurd for anyone to think he didn't deserve MVP that season. Bulls finished with a losing record in '87, you can't call someone MVP on a losing team. I believe Kareem is the only player in history to win MVP on a team with a losing record.

[ArbitraryWater]

The FACT REMAINS what I said WAS TRUE! MJ had the least amount of scoring help among the top 12 GOAT players. That's all I said!! LEARN TO COMPREHEND SHIT!!! And your MOM'S DICK SUCKING SKILLS ARE OUTDATED!!! You making it personal calling my posts A SHTICK!! I got too much hoops knowledge and FACTS IN MY POSTS to be outdated!

Prime Drexler played with the Dream! When did MJ EVER played with somebody on the level of Dream?? Barkley got to play with tailend prime Dr. J, Moses, Dream, Drexler, Pippen, KJ, Thunder Dan, etc. Payton in his prime played with MORE scoring help than MJ did. Same thing with Karl Malone. When did MJ EVER have that type of star power AROUND HIM! It's not about being an HOFer all the time. Being a multiple time All Star in the league is STILL a great feat! Drexler's teams in Portland EASILY had more scoring help than MJ ever had in Chicago. THESE ARE FACTS!!!

In my posts, I didn't make it ONLY ABOUT HOF type of teammates. I ALSO MENTIONED guys who were very good TO GREAT SCORERS as teammates. Whether you slice it up to HOF teammates in their prime OR very good to great scoring help for him, MJ PLAYED WITH THE LEAST AMOUNT OF EITHER GROUP AMONG the top 12 GOAT level legends! THAT"S A FACT!!!! I specifically said AMONG THE TOP 12 GOAT GUYS! Why in the hell did u bring up Drexler, Barkley, Payton, and Malone? They aren't the tier of legends I was talking about to begin with!


What you said was "true" but completely incomplete.

Your assertion is inaccurate because you miss the bigger picture.

Relative to his era / competition, MJ had the best supporting cast there was.

I mentioned all of MJs Finals opposition, its bad if they arent in that tier to begin with.

[bizil]

In general, I'd argue both KD and Hakeem are top 10 in terms of talent/ability/skillset. Statwise, about as good as it gets for their respective positions and roles. Both are one time MVPs. Hakeem gets the nod for me being, I would say inarguably, one of the top 5 defensive players in the history of the game, while being a dominant offensive player. I also would say Hakeem's title runs, especially 95( which does alot of the heavy lifting for his legacy) trump KDs runs because while he was the finals MVP both times, KD outside of that period hasn't shown that he can actually lead a team to a title. Steph was very clearly the heart and soul of that team, Draymond its emotional leader, whereas KD really came in and 'just played ball' and pretty much upended any competitive balance until he left. Of course, there's always the counter argument that Hakeem didn't win titles until MJ left( I would contend that the 95 Rockets would have beaten the Bulls had they met), so if you removed titles from both I would still say Hakeem had the higher peak and better overall individual accolades.

Well said sir! I can't argue one bit with your analysis. Peak wise, I think the Dream was the superior player. GOAT wise though I think KD has the slight edge. But of course I could see the Dream having the edge on him GOAT wise.

[SouBeachTalents]

Well said sir! I can't argue one bit with your analysis. Peak wise, I think the Dream was the superior player. GOAT wise though I think KD has the slight edge. But of course I could see the Dream having the edge on him GOAT wise.
Without the Warrior titles you would never believe this. To put his titles on equal footing with Hakeem's is frankly absurd, Hakeem's are 2 of the most impressive championship runs ever, Durant's were won in the easiest circumstances possible, on a team that won championships and broke win records without him.

[bizil]

Are you kidding me? Most of those guys were past their prime when Barkley played with them. :oldlol:

When Chuck got to Philly in 84-85, I would argue Dr. J was in his backend prime mode still. NOW after that that season, you could say he was past his prime though.

Moses was still STRONG in his prime with Barkley first got there. And would be for multiple seasons after that.

Dream and Drexler were still in backend prime mode when Barkley first got there. And to be honest you could make the case Drexler ACTUALLY RETRIED in his backend prime mode. But Barkley and Dream BOTH fell outta their prime together in Houston though.

When Pip first got to Houston, I would say he was in his backned prime mode. But of course he only played that one season there.

KJ and Thunder Dan were absolutely in their primes when Barkley got there.

BUT let's say ALL THE GUYS I MENTIONED were outta their primes when Barkley got to play with them, that's still WAY MORE OFFENSIVE FIREPOWER than MJ ever got to play with in his Bulls Career!! The best scorers prime MJ got to play with on the Bulls were Pippen, Woolrdige, Grant, and Kukoc. When you compare that to other top 12 GOAT players, MJ BY FAR had the least amount of offensive firepower around him. MJ BY FAR had the least amount of All Star type of help around him. And he had the least amount of superstar/HOF caliber help around him.

[bizil]

Without the Warrior titles you would never believe this. To put his titles on equal footing with Hakeem's is frankly absurd, Hakeem's are 2 of the most impressive championship runs ever, Durant's were won in the easiest circumstances possible, on a team that won championships and broke win records without him.

I get what you mean. Valid points made for sure. And I'm never gonna argue if somebody has The Dream over KD on a GOAT list. But when you look at KD's TOTAL RESUME AND HOW he redefined the SF position, I would lean to him slightly on a GOAT list at this point.