Jokic "LeBronto's" Lebron

[StrongLurk]

It's funny how much fuss is made about Lebron's domination of Toronto, who never had truly elite teams.

Yet we don't hear anything about Jokic owning Lebron just as badly over the last 3 years :lol

[Full Court]

You haven't figured out that there's an agenda behind the Lebron narrative in the media?

Fringe top ten, and Curry may pass him up before all is said and done.

[Im so nba'd out]

You can tell OP actually respected Jake Paul's win against "Iron" Mike Tyson......pathetic

[Manny98]

Jokic has been owning AD not LeBron.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic has been owning AD not LeBron.

That's not how it works. No one said Lebron owned a "specific Raptor" player.

Use the same logic with Jokic, Jokic has "LeBronto'd" the Lakers as a whole the last 3 years.

14-2 against the Lakers in the last 16 games and kicked them out of the playoffs two straight years.

[SouBeachTalents]

That’s obv huge ownage, but if you’re just going to leave out the fact LeBron’s been in his late 30’s and Jokic has been 10 years younger in the heart of his prime, you’re just being disingenuous.

[StrongLurk]

That’s obv huge ownage, but if you’re just going to leave out the fact LeBron’s been in his late 30’s and Jokic has been 10 years younger in the heart of his prime, you’re just being disingenuous.

Man, NOBODY cared about any context for the Raptors.

Also, Lebron is still a top 10 player in the league so the age thing doesn't matter than much. Jokic is still owning TWO current top ten players in Lebron and AD, which is far more impressive than owning Derozan and Lowry.

[Neal Romer]

That's not how it works. No one said Lebron owned a "specific Raptor" player.

Use the same logic with Jokic, Jokic has "LeBronto'd" the Lakers as a whole the last 3 years.

14-2 against the Lakers in the last 16 games and kicked them out of the playoffs two straight years.


Yeah, fine, great, if you wanna say Jokic owns the Lakers (mainly LeTeammates), and make cracks about how Jokic will attend the owners meetings on behalf of the Lakers thats terrific. Go to town.


But LEAVE. LEBRONS. NAME. OUT. OF YOUR ****ING. MOUTH!!!!!!!!!

[Phoenix]

Obviously they're at two different stages of their careers, but I do wonder how much difference 2009-2018 Lebron makes in place of current Bron. Like does he reverse those playoffs results or just make it more competitive series( I'm going for the latter)?

[jlip]

It's funny how much fuss is made about Lebron's domination of Toronto, who never had truly elite teams.

Yet we don't hear anything about Jokic owning Lebron just as badly over the last 3 years :lol

You are making an apples to oranges comparison. LeBron's Cavs teams won three straight playoff series against the Raptors, even one as a lower seed in 2018.

Jokic's Nuggets and LeBron's Lakers have faced off in the playoffs three times. The Lakers actually defeated the Nuggets in 2020 on the way to a title. That alone nullifies any comparisons to the "LeBronto" phenomenon. The Nuggets defeated the Lakers twice in the playoffs, 2023 en route to a title and 2024. As far as the playoffs is concerned, it's a 2-1 series advantage for Jokic. That's not the same as "LeBronto", and that moniker was not created based on regular season domination, but playoff domination.

Also, as dominant as Jokic has been in the two series wins in 2023 and 2024, it was Murray who suddenly turned into peak MJ in 2023 and some ridiculous clutch guru in 2024 that was the difference. Again, as insanely great as Jokic is, he has not done anything against LeBron and the Lakers that remotely resembles what LeBron did against the Raptors in 2018 where LeBron by himself basically outplayed the two best players on the Raptors combined. It's better to choose another comparison, because Jokic's recent success against LeBron doesn't compare to what is known as LeBronto.

[PistonsFan#21]

That's not how it works. No one said Lebron owned a "specific Raptor" player.

Use the same logic with Jokic, Jokic has "LeBronto'd" the Lakers as a whole the last 3 years.


Just re-read this post you just made and take a closer look at your thread title.

[ArbitraryWater]

We hear about that all the time (owning the Lakers).

He didnt own LeBron though, thats where your argument kinda falls apart.

[ArbitraryWater]

Just re-read this post you just made and take a closer look at your thread title.

Hahaha.


Nah thats crazy. Cognitive. Dissonance.

[tpols]

Jokic has been owning AD not LeBron.

AD has put up great production against Jokic. And so has Lebron.

It's funny because tic for tac both teams productions are similar. Jokic and Murray balance out AD and Lebron, role players on both sides play similar, games at least in the playoffs were close... Lakers just seem to find a way to choke 4th quarters at a crazy rate. If giving up close games was an art form, the Lakers would be the Picasso of that shite vs Denver.

[tpols]

That's not how it works. No one said Lebron owned a "specific Raptor" player.

Use the same logic with Jokic, Jokic has "LeBronto'd" the Lakers as a whole the last 3 years.

14-2 against the Lakers in the last 16 games and kicked them out of the playoffs two straight years.

The difference is the Raptors used to get blown out by record margin vs Lebron. With no hope of winning.

The Lakers have generally been very competitive, just total choke artists outside that 1 shot AD made in 2020 WCF.

[Kblaze8855]

Generally speaking those narratives don’t exist when each has gone through the other for a title. All the claims that an entire year and a half of sports simply don’t count mean nothing in history. LeBron, Brady, Alabama football, the Dodgers….


Everybody who won were the people you got used to seeing win or be in the mix to win. That lockdown year really didn’t have any outliers.

You generally need complete hammer on nail style domination to get the reputation that somebody just owns you. The closest you get where they both won is the bad boys and Jordan, but they fell apart so soon after they got beat the rivalry ended. And Jordan is remembered as having had the last laugh.

if both sides have won, it’s a rivalry. When only one side wins? It can be entertaining like the Lakers and Kings, but rivalry needs both sides to win to me. LeBron and Toronto didn’t really have a rivalry just a series of beatings. That isn’t the case with the nuggets and Lakers.

[SouBeachTalents]

Man, NOBODY cared about any context for the Raptors.

Also, Lebron is still a top 10 player in the league so the age thing doesn't matter than much. Jokic is still owning TWO current top ten players in Lebron and AD, which is far more impressive than owning Derozan and Lowry.
You're comparing a player owning a team to a player owning another player, which is an asinine comparison to begin with.

And of course age matters, you think 38-40 year old Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem etc are faring any better against a 3x MVP putting up GOAT level production at his peak? If anything, that should reflect worse on AD who's still in his prime and according to you has a top 10 player as a teammate, and also plays a similar position.

[SouBeachTalents]

Generally speaking those narratives don’t exist when each has gone through the other for a title. All the claims that an entire year and a half of sports simply don’t count mean nothing in history. LeBron, Brady, Alabama football, the Dodgers….


Everybody who won were the people you got used to seeing win or be in the mix to win. That lockdown year really didn’t have any outliers.

You generally need complete hammer on nail style domination to get the reputation that somebody just owns you. The closest you get where they both won is the bad boys and Jordan, but they fell apart so soon after they got beat the rivalry ended. And Jordan is remembered as having had the last laugh.

if both sides have won, it’s a rivalry. When only one side wins? It can be entertaining like the Lakers and Kings, but rivalry needs both sides to win to me. LeBron and Toronto didn’t really have a rivalry just a series of beatings. That isn’t the case with the nuggets and Lakers.
You also had the Lightning who won again in 2021 and made the Finals for a third straight time in 2022.

Nadal winning at the French was kind of a fluke though.

[tpols]

You're comparing a player owning a team to a player owning another player, which is an asinine comparison to begin with.

And of course age matters, you think 38-40 year old Jordan, Shaq, Hakeem etc are faring any better against a 3x MVP putting up GOAT level production at his peak? If anything, that should reflect worse on AD who's still in his prime and according to you has a top 10 player as a teammate, and also plays a similar position.


That's a very disingenuous take since Lebron is still producing at his prime level where as the names you mentioned were shells.

If Yolk was beating up on a old, washed up 15 ppg version of Lebron nobody would care. But his production has been elite... and so has ADs. They just choke games at the end.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Lebrons longevity is what's putting him in the GOAT debate because he's basically been able to play prime like even into old basketball age... then you also have to account for the losses that happen in that time period as well.

[Kblaze8855]

You also had the Lightning who won again in 2021 and made the Finals for a third straight time in 2022.

Nadal winning at the French was kind of a fluke though.


off the top of my head, the biggest Covid shock in sports was Simone Biles short-circuiting in that weird ass Olympics. She’s the only one of the people you would generally expect to win who didn’t perform.

[Phoenix]

That's a very disingenuous take since Lebron is still producing at his prime level where as the names you mentioned were shells.

If Yolk was beating up on a old, washed up 15 ppg version of Lebron nobody would care. But his production has been elite... and so has ADs. They just choke games at the end.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Lebrons longevity is what's putting him in the GOAT debate because he's basically been able to play prime like even into old basketball age... then you also have to account for the losses that happen in that time period as well.

That's the issue with stats in a vacuum. Lebron could drop 25/7/7 this year but that doesn't make him equal to 2016 Bron posting that on the Cavs. He clearly doesn't impact winning like he used to. And even if he did, dare I say Jokic is every bit the floor raiser Lebron was at his peak, much less a past prime version and is going to hold the stats edge( something Lebron never had to worry about a decade ago).

Yes, it all counts end of the day, but it has to be placed in its proper context.

[ArbitraryWater]

You also had the Lightning who won again in 2021 and made the Finals for a third straight time in 2022.

Nadal winning at the French was kind of a fluke though.

:D

[SouBeachTalents]

That's a very disingenuous take since Lebron is still producing at his prime level where as the names you mentioned were shells.

If Yolk was beating up on a old, washed up 15 ppg version of Lebron nobody would care. But his production has been elite... and so has ADs. They just choke games at the end.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Lebrons longevity is what's putting him in the GOAT debate because he's basically been able to play prime like even into old basketball age... then you also have to account for the losses that happen in that time period as well.
LeBron is still, amazingly, a top 10 player at 40 years old, but that doesn't change the fact he is CLEARLY not the guy he was in his prime, or even during his last championship year in 2020. Nor does that change the fact that Jokic is 28-30, the age players almost always peak in their career.

The only thing disingenuous here is acting like a 28-30 year old GOAT talent beating a 38-40 year old GOAT talent is some notable occurrence. You add on top of that Jokic was the 2 seed while LeBron was the 7th for both their matchups, it makes the comparison even more absurd.

Hakeem defeating a 39 year old Kareem in 5 games while he was on the defending champs and had Magic & Worthy would never be held against him.

[ShawkFactory]

That's a very disingenuous take since Lebron is still producing at his prime level where as the names you mentioned were shells.

If Yolk was beating up on a old, washed up 15 ppg version of Lebron nobody would care. But his production has been elite... and so has ADs. They just choke games at the end.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.

If Lebrons longevity is what's putting him in the GOAT debate because he's basically been able to play prime like even into old basketball age... then you also have to account for the losses that happen in that time period as well.

Calling someone's take disingenuous while being disingenuous.

Tsk tsk

[tpols]

There's really nothing clear about Leɓrons supposed drastic downfall from his prime.

He's averaging the same production he did with the Miami Heat in the playoffs as he does vs Jokic today. Actually might be better today. He's more efficient nowadays and throws more dimes while still sporting star scoring volume.

It's just a cop out you guys use.

"Oh... but he's old. He's not prime, and washed up! It doesn't count!"


:biggums:

There's nothing prime or peak LeBron could've done to change these outcomes. He's already put up more than he did back then vs Denver and still lost regardless.

[Phoenix]

You can't go by production alone. Lebron's highest career ppg was 31 in 2006. Are we gonna say that makes him a better scorer than 2018 Bron? Of course not. Nobody is saying he doesn't produce, but the numbers don't impact winning as before. The reality is, Lebron has mastered the mechanics of getting stats. If you score 6 points and grab a rebound or two per quarter, he'd get that. Let's not forget the complete abandonment of defense to sustain energy for offense.

MJ told Melo the same thing. If you score 8 points a quarter that's 32. Lebron even at 40 can score 6 points in a quarter, a layup or two, a breakaway dunk, a couple of free throws. Doesn't mean he should be viewed in the same lense as his prime.

[ShawkFactory]

There's really nothing clear about Leɓrons supposed drastic downfall from his prime.

He's averaging the same production he did with the Miami Heat in the playoffs as he does vs Jokic today. Actually might be better today. He's more efficient nowadays and throws more dimes while still sporting star scoring volume.

It's just a cop out you guys use.

"Oh... but he's old. He's not prime, and washed up! It doesn't count!"


:biggums:

There's nothing prime or peak LeBron could've done to change these outcomes. He's already put up more than he did back then vs Denver and still lost regardless.

There certainly is...

He is not at ALL able to put forth that sort of production combined with the overall wrecking-ball effort he was able to give in his prime. He can do it in spurts like he did in the Olympics, but in his prime he could do that for 40+ minutes. He cannot now.

His lateral quickness on both ends is also not near what it was.

And I'm not sure why you are ignoring the scoring and raw production differences in general now vs 10 years ago. I assume it's on purpose.

[SouBeachTalents]

You can't go by production alone. Lebron's highest career ppg was 31 in 2006. Are we gonna say that makes him a better scorer than 2018 Bron? Of course not. Nobody is saying he doesn't produce, but the numbers don't impact winning as before. The reality is, Lebron has mastered the mechanics of getting stats. If you score 6 points and grab a rebound or two per quarter, he'd get that. Let's not forget the complete abandonment of defense to sustain energy for offense.

MJ told Melo the same thing. If you score 8 points a quarter that's 32. Lebron even at 40 can score 6 points in a quarter, a layup or two, a breakaway dunk, a couple of free throws. Doesn't mean he should be viewed in the same lense as his prime.
That's a great point, LeBron was putting up better production in 2006 than he was in any of his MVP/FMVP seasons, guess that means he was a better player then.

Kobe was also putting up the same production in 2013 as he was in 2008, he must've been just as good of a player.

[Phoenix]

That's a great point, LeBron was putting up better production in 2006 than he was in any of his MVP/FMVP seasons, guess that means he was a better player then.

Kobe was also putting up the same production in 2013 as he was in 2008, he must've been just as good of a player.

Hell 87 Jordan averaged 37. No-one in their right mind would say he's a better scorer than 91 Jordan averaging 31.

[tpols]

Lebron is still one of the most explosive basketball athletes in the world. He's averaged almost a 30 point triple double in the playoffs vs Jokic. This isn't Yolk beating up on a shell. What Lebron lacked in his youth that caused debacles like 2011 ~ poise, maturity, knowledge, shooting skill, etc. he has now. While still retaining 90-95% of his athleticism. I would take the Lebron Jokic faced over 2010 or 2011 prime Lebron easily.

[tpols]

There certainly is...

He is not at ALL able to put forth that sort of production combined with the overall wrecking-ball effort he was able to give in his prime. He can do it in spurts like he did in the Olympics, but in his prime he could do that for 40+ minutes. He cannot now.

His lateral quickness on both ends is also not near what it was.

And I'm not sure why you are ignoring the scoring and raw production differences in general now vs 10 years ago. I assume it's on purpose.

Thats... simply not true at all. :lol

Lebron has played way better vs Jokic than he did at various points throughout his prime. Hes averaged almost a 30 point triple double vs him. He was the same beast. Actually probably more of one because he was able to shoot better and couldn't be exploited in that manner.

The problem has always been jokic. Hes just GOAT. I'm a huge Kobe fan and given similar casts I don't think he'd beat Yolk either. Jordan probably wouldn't as well.

[ArbitraryWater]

Thats... simply not true at all. :lol

Lebron has played way better vs Jokic than he did at various points throughout his prime. He was the same beast. Actually probably more of one because he was able to shoot better and couldn't be exploited in that manner.

The problem has always been jokic. Hes just GOAT. I'm a huge Kobe fan and given similar casts I don't think he'd beat Yolk either. Jordan probably wouldn't as well.

cmon man


and how is that not true? He still has thesame athleticism and motor?

[Phoenix]

Lebron is still one of the most explosive basketball athletes in the world. He's averaged almost a 30 point triple double in the playoffs vs Jokic. This isn't Yolk beating up on a shell. What Lebron lacked in his youth that caused debacles like 2011 ~ poise, maturity, knowledge, shooting skill, etc. he has now. While still retaining 90-95% of his athleticism. I would take the Lebron Jokic faced over 2010 or 2011 prime Lebron easily.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cVBWdMN-3bA&ab_channel=FahadFilms

You need to rewatch some clips of 2009 Lebron if you think he's REMOTELY as athletic now. His head is nowhere near the rim anymore and he's fast by wing standards going downhill, but that dude in 2009 was a fukking blur in the open court.



90-95%?! What?!

[tpols]

2007-2011 Lebron may have been more athletic but he's just as good if not better with the Lakers these past few years because he's a way better shooter and a much more confident and wise QB.

What Lebron lacks to a minor degree in athleticism now he makes up for more in skill and experience. Literally producing the same thing or better. Actually, definitely better given some of the flame outs he had back then. It all evens out.

Jokic would've done the same thing to prime Lebron. Just like Dirk or Duncan did. But Yolk is honestly better than them.

It's no shame to lose to a better opponent.

[Phoenix]

The best version of Lebron to match up with Jokic is his 2nd Cavs version (2015-2018). That's the one who actually had 85% of his athleticism, the improved skill and experience, and less prone to mental breakdown. Current Lebron is too old and 2011 Lebron too young/prone to inexplicable mental breakdowns. Not saying 2016 Bron is gonna take out Jokic all things equal, but he'd put up a better fight than 2023/24 Bron, easily. Current Lebron doesn't have the extra gear, that's the difference, regardless of being a better shooter yadda yadda.

[ShawkFactory]

Thats... simply not true at all. :lol

Lebron has played way better vs Jokic than he did at various points throughout his prime. Hes averaged almost a 30 point triple double vs him. He was the same beast. Actually probably more of one because he was able to shoot better and couldn't be exploited in that manner.

The problem has always been jokic. Hes just GOAT. I'm a huge Kobe fan and given similar casts I don't think he'd beat Yolk either. Jordan probably wouldn't as well.

Oh, okay then..

I guess if we put laughing emojis after something then that statement then has to be real.

So we saying we don't think 2013 Lebron is a top 5-10 player in this league? Because current Lebron is not.

[RRR3]

why do you guys even argue with ttrolls? just troll him and move on. literally a 3ball level poster.

[tpols]

2013 Lebron still had a shooting weakness that Pop exposed in the playoffs. Miami was heavy favorites coming into the season over the Spurs and it took a miracle for them to win.

Current Lebron would've spanked them imo. You can't just boris diaw him now and dare him to shoot. His long range jumper has really gotten better with age. And the QB skills are even more refined.

Jokic isnt beating up some shell of Lebron like yall are making it out to be. That's a big time cop.

[Phoenix]

2013 Lebron still had a shooting weakness that Pop exposed in the playoffs. Miami was heavy favorites coming into the season over the Spurs and it took a miracle for them to win.

Current Lebron would've spanked them imo. You can't just boris diaw him now and dare him to shoot. His long range jumper has really gotten better with age. And the QB skills are even more refined.

Jokic isnt beating up some shell of Lebron like yall are making it out to be. That's a big time cop.

No he wouldn't have. The Spurs perimeter guys wouldn't have sagged off him( Diaw him as you put it), rather they would have played his jumper more and he's not the driver he used to be in the half-court. Then Duncan is there protecting the paint and this version of Lebron doesn't go over guys at the rim like before.

[tpols]

No he wouldn't have. The Spurs perimeter guys wouldn't have sagged off him( Diaw him as you put it), rather they would have played his jumper more and he's not the driver he used to be in the half-court. Then Duncan is there protecting the paint and this version of Lebron doesn't go over guys at the rim like before.


Lebron averages in the playoffs the past two years the same exact line as he did in the 2013 NBA Finals. He's actually more efficient now. And that's even factoring in him playing defensive teams like Memphis when JJJ won the DPOY. So he was still plenty capable against tough defense.

The shooting thing is a huge deal in this case. Because the Spurs through 6 games before Ray's shot had Lebron locked up with the sagging strategy. Not only would his improved shooting now destroy that strategy, but it would make for better spacing and chemistry with Wade. A double bonus essentially.

[Phoenix]

Lebron averages in the playoffs the past two years the same exact line as he did in the 2013 NBA Finals. He's actually more efficient now. And that's even factoring in him playing defensive teams like Memphis when JJJ won the DPOY. So he was still plenty capable against tough defense.

The shooting thing is a huge deal in this case. Because the Spurs through 6 games before Ray's shot had Lebron locked up with the sagging strategy. Not only would his improved shooting now destroy that strategy, but it would make for better spacing and chemistry with Wade. A double bonus essentially.

Boiling all this down, it sounds like you think Lebron is a better player a month shy of his 40th birthday, or the current version would win in situations he may have previously lost in, which is more or less saying the same thing. The only instance I can apply that to was the 2011 finals, which was an aberration.