Where do you rank Tatum/Brown if they win back to back chips?

[AirBonner]

I feel they were firmly in that McGrady category but they are producing yet another historic team :biggums:

[Kblaze8855]

I’m They are the type that really climbs with the accolades. You would think it works that way, but if you go down a list of all timers?

Do you really remember where you had Wade in 2012 versus after 2013 when he had two more championships?

Did you go in thinking he was like Ray Allen or whatever and come out saying now he’s Jerry West?

You kind of knew what he was didn’t you? Did that 27 or so game win streak and a third championship put Wade somewhere different for you? Who did he pass?

Tony Parker has four rings, but I don’t know how many people put him anywhere they didn’t when he had one or two.

What did you move him from Lenny Wilkins level up to tiny Archibald?

my point is below a certain level I don’t know that people even get rankings. They get a ranking if you’re going to sit down and really try to list dozens and dozens of names. But the way it works for most fans is you’re in that elite company or you aren’t. I’m not sure even people I’d call serious basketball fans have a ranking for Dave Cowens as opposed to Bob Mcadoo.

They can look up the accolades and make a decision, but it would take considerable work to put them both in a historical perspective.

We talk about legacy but most players even most great players really don’t get one outside of a listing of things that scroll by after they pass away or if they’re lucky on a birthday if it’s a slow news day.

both Tatum and Brown are so far from the kind of players to really get into all time discussions to the extent a number is attached to it I really don’t know that another championship would change that.

eventually, I guess it would with enough of them, but look how much people like curry Durant and Wade have a accomplished to get into the big discussions. And you could argue Wade and Durant aren’t even even there.

If they win this year and next year, I’m not sure either goes high enough to have a solid ranking.

Does Kawhi Leonard have an all-time ranking? I’m not sure he does. He’s an all-time great player just lost in the fog with several dozen other ones. I don’t think one more championship would do very much to get either one of the Celtics out of that fog and have people talking about them names that means something to the public.

Two more rings there would definitely be some young Celtic fans saying Tatum was better than Bird but if you pull up a bunch of top 10 and 15 bird would still be on it and Tatum wouldn’t be.

Something has to change beyond the winning. If Tatum had one of those rocket Harden runs with the winning attached that might do it but the way they play I don’t think that’s possible.

I don’t think either one of them is going to get enough credit to shoot way up in the rankings The way the team currently plays.

[AirBonner]

I’m They are the type that really climbs with the accolades. You would think it works that way, but if you go down a list of all timers?

Do you really remember where you had Wade in 2012 versus after 2013 when he had two more championships?

Did you go in thinking he was like Ray Allen or whatever and come out saying now he’s Jerry West?

You kind of knew what he was didn’t you? Did that 27 or so game win streak and a third championship put Wade somewhere different for you? Who did he pass?

Tony Parker has four rings, but I don’t know how many people put him anywhere they didn’t when he had one or two.

What did you move him from Lenny Wilkins level up to tiny Archibald?

my point is below a certain level I don’t know that people even get rankings. They get a ranking if you’re going to sit down and really try to list dozens and dozens of names. But the way it works for most fans is you’re in that elite company or you aren’t. I’m not sure even people I’d call serious basketball fans have a ranking for Dave Cowens as opposed to Bob Mcadoo.

They can look up the accolades and make a decision, but it would take considerable work to put them both in a historical perspective.

We talk about legacy but most players even most great players really don’t get one outside of a listing of things that scroll by after they pass away or if they’re lucky on a birthday if it’s a slow news day.

both Tatum and Brown are so far from the kind of players to really get into all time discussions to the extent a number is attached to it I really don’t know that another championship would change that.

eventually, I guess it would with enough of them, but look how much people like curry Durant and Wade have a accomplished to get into the big discussions. And you could argue Wade and Durant aren’t even even there.

If they win this year and next year, I’m not sure either goes high enough to have a solid ranking.

Does Kawhi Leonard have an all-time ranking? I’m not sure he does. He’s an all-time great player just lost in the fog with several dozen other ones. I don’t think one more championship would do very much to get either one of the Celtics out of that fog and have people talking about them names that means something to the public.

Two more rings there would definitely be some young Celtic fans saying Tatum was better than Bird but if you pull up a bunch of top 10 and 15 bird would still be on it and Tatum wouldn’t be.

Something has to change beyond the winning. If Tatum had one of those rocket Harden runs with the winning attached that might do it but the way they play I don’t think that’s possible.

I don’t think either one of them is going to get enough credit to shoot way up in the rankings The way the team currently plays.

Tatum is a five-time NBA All-Star and four-time All-NBA selection. In 2024, he led the team to a league-best 64 wins and a championship in the NBA Finals. Tatum also won a gold medal with the 2020 and 2024 U.S. Olympic teams. Has a 30ppg season. Youngest Celtic to 10k points. Sorry my man but at some point the resume starts clearing a lot of old heads.

Kawhi has 13,937 career points
Tatum has 12,363 career points
Is 7 years younger.

Tatum isn’t just getting accolades he’s putting up stats. The goal is to win. Not sure what you are on about. Tatum’s trajectory is already much higher than Kawhi if you include the entire body of work.

[tpols]

They'd be like Isiah Thomas and Joe dumars. Both great players yet not really close to MVP level.

[Kblaze8855]

Tatum is a five-time NBA All-Star and four-time All-NBA selection. In 2024, he led the team to a league-best 64 wins and a championship in the NBA Finals. Tatum also won a gold medal with the 2020 and 2024 U.S. Olympic teams. Has a 30ppg season. Sorry my man but at some point the resume starts clearing a lot of old heads.


There are 10 time all NBA first team NBA champions who lead the league in scoring twice and won two MVPs who don’t even get a ranking despite a good three or four of their contemporaries getting one.

I’m not talking about the paperwork legacy. I’m talking about the real world Legacy, where people decide you’re an all timer or they don’t.

It’s hard to say what decides it, but it certainly isn’t the actual written résumé.


There are way more Amazing resumes than there are players who even get discussed by fans outside their era much less get any kinda regular ranking among the GOATS.

[MMM]

Tbh i dont think they are rankable, but it has more to do with this era being more of an outlier than previous eras. For example, the Celtics had a top 5 SRS last year and top 7 offense relative to league average, but they didnt have a MVP candidate and only 1 all NBAer. The stats tell you they are one of the best teams ever but their stars dont quite match that billing.

Tatum in particular has a lot going for him because he has the most playoff wins and playoff points since he came into the league but he also never been a teir 1 Star, so it's not likely he will seriously be looked at as a top 30 to 40 player.

However i do see the Celtics repeating and putting up similar historic margins but for Tatum/Brown to see any rankings they need to play better in the playoffs.

[AirBonner]

You mean media anointed that’s different. A lot of legacies are built on iconic moments. Which they both have.

[Neal Romer]

Nowhere tbh. Im out of the ranking business.

[Kblaze8855]

Im not talking about media anointed. I’m talking about the way fans perceive greatness. A tremendous number of players are perceived very differently than written accolades and I don’t see that ever changing.

There have always been players with a better list of accomplishments than you would think by name recognition, and there are even more who didn’t really do anything, but have a significant place in history.

There isnt one person here who wouldn’t recognize pistol Pete, but I don’t know how many of you would recognize Paul Westphal no matter how much more he did than Pete. Guys like Moses, Cowens, Reed…Hayes. That’s like five MVPs six championships…all kinds of accolades.

Sure it was a long time ago, but you know plenty of people they played against better than you know them.

Every era has great players that don’t have whatever the thing is that makes them last in the memory of fans as all time elites.

It isn’t as easy as having accolades. The rankings only go so far. People don’t sit around talking about the top 30 list. There are 36 MVPs and that doesn’t even count guys like KD, Wade, West, Luka and so on.

at least 25 people have been MVPs and have lead teams to championships. Not been a role player. Been the best player.

It takes a lot to knock enough of those guys out of the way that you really get a consistent numerical ranking.

All the stars accolades look a lot better when they aren’t sitting next to 38 more unbelievable careers several of which were considered simply better at basketball.

The guys near the top were absolute titans And the kind of great you have to be to knock them out of the way has to be reflected in public opinion, not accolades.

The public doesn’t care about accolades nearly as much as One would think. The simplest way I can put it is people have to believe they’re seeing something special.

Your list of all NBA teams won’t get as much status without it. You can argue that shouldn’t be the case but it absolutely is.

History is full of too many resumes at this point.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Trying to give Tatum and Brown an all-time ranking right now is stupid. 28 and 26 with no regular season mvp awards. In 2 or three years when this Celtic team is getting restructured (hopefully just that but may be blown up entirely) there might be a discussion about where this current Celtic team ranks but right now with just one ring that's premature. But Tatum and Brown currently look like the level of players where they might make the "NBA 100" team but haven't done enough to do it yet so trying to bring them up as al-time great players is just walking into a losing and limited argument.

[John8204]

They are the modern day Jim Pollard and Vern Mikkelsen...HOFers with resumes that should be notable but they aren't guys you're going to rank as all-timers based on their position. I think in the years/decades to come people will look back at this team fondly and the stories of Brown, Tatum, Porzingus, White, Horford, Smart, Kryie, Thomas, Holiday etc. But legacy wise I don't see it with any of these players.

[Carbine]

I’m They are the type that really climbs with the accolades. You would think it works that way, but if you go down a list of all timers?

Do you really remember where you had Wade in 2012 versus after 2013 when he had two more championships?

Did you go in thinking he was like Ray Allen or whatever and come out saying now he’s Jerry West?

You kind of knew what he was didn’t you? Did that 27 or so game win streak and a third championship put Wade somewhere different for you? Who did he pass?

Tony Parker has four rings, but I don’t know how many people put him anywhere they didn’t when he had one or two.

What did you move him from Lenny Wilkins level up to tiny Archibald?

my point is below a certain level I don’t know that people even get rankings. They get a ranking if you’re going to sit down and really try to list dozens and dozens of names. But the way it works for most fans is you’re in that elite company or you aren’t. I’m not sure even people I’d call serious basketball fans have a ranking for Dave Cowens as opposed to Bob Mcadoo.

They can look up the accolades and make a decision, but it would take considerable work to put them both in a historical perspective.

We talk about legacy but most players even most great players really don’t get one outside of a listing of things that scroll by after they pass away or if they’re lucky on a birthday if it’s a slow news day.

both Tatum and Brown are so far from the kind of players to really get into all time discussions to the extent a number is attached to it I really don’t know that another championship would change that.

eventually, I guess it would with enough of them, but look how much people like curry Durant and Wade have a accomplished to get into the big discussions. And you could argue Wade and Durant aren’t even even there.

If they win this year and next year, I’m not sure either goes high enough to have a solid ranking.

Does Kawhi Leonard have an all-time ranking? I’m not sure he does. He’s an all-time great player just lost in the fog with several dozen other ones. I don’t think one more championship would do very much to get either one of the Celtics out of that fog and have people talking about them names that means something to the public.

Two more rings there would definitely be some young Celtic fans saying Tatum was better than Bird but if you pull up a bunch of top 10 and 15 bird would still be on it and Tatum wouldn’t be.

Something has to change beyond the winning. If Tatum had one of those rocket Harden runs with the winning attached that might do it but the way they play I don’t think that’s possible.

I don’t think either one of them is going to get enough credit to shoot way up in the rankings The way the team currently plays.

Tony is a very bad example. He got benched in the first title run and decent in the second title run.

All his accolades came after the two titles and I'm 100 percent sure people moved him up significantly from where they had him after the second title vs where he was ranked after the 2014 title

[iamgine]

Just like how Durant/Curry Warriors winning back to back doesn't really add to their ranking for me, this Celtics team winning wouldn't add much to any individual player's ranking.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Just like how Durant/Curry Warriors winning back to back doesn't really add to their ranking for me, this Celtics team winning wouldn't add much to any individual player's ranking.
It's going to depend on how they do it. What kind of challenges they overcome, stats they put up, clutch plays that they make. Which is why trying to assign some level of credit deserved to something they haven't done yet is always stupid. Also, no one cares about the championships in regards to Durant because he joined a 73-win team. People call Curry a 4-time Champion on the other hand and not much note is made of him being the second-best player for two of those championships because he's not the guy that joined on. The narrative is everything.

[Manny98]

They may scrape the top 250 all time

[999Guy]

Let's be serious here, Tatum and Brown don't strike fear into people. And they shouldn't. There are plenty of better players right now.

When they're all fully right, Porzingis looked to me like the clearly most impactful guy on the team. Forget whatever the boxscore stats say. Even though Porzingis stats are very good anyway IIRC. Porzingis is their biggest offensive mismatch and their most dominant defender simultaneously. When I think about current Boston, they're like the 10's Spurs to me. Those Spurs were led by Ginobili, Duncan, and Kawhi, but...It's still more of a collective thing. Derrick White could be the best defender at guard in the NBA right now.

SGA, Holmgren and Williams look scary otoh. They're coming. Whether it be this year or next. They're gonna own everything. And then threads like these will be over.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Let's be serious here, Tatum and Brown don't strike into people. And they shouldn't. There are plenty of better player right now.

SGA, Holmgren and Williams look scary otoh. They're coming. Whether it be this year or next. They're gonna own everything. And then threads like these will be over.Dallas didn't look scared to me.

[Kblaze8855]

Tony is a very bad example. He got benched in the first title run and decent in the second title run.

All his accolades came after the two titles and I'm 100 percent sure people moved him up significantly from where they had him after the second title vs where he was ranked after the 2014 title

Thing is…I’m not sure he went up because I genuinely don’t remember him ever getting a ranking. Among points you might hear Parker vs whoever. But an all time number?

The only player in my life I’ve ever heard get a numerical ranking outside the top 20 is when those couple guys on here were trying to prove Kevin Johnson was top 40 like 15 years ago. At some point, we stop assigning numbers and you’re just generally a legend.

The list of players people might want to call top 1015 or 20 off the top just keeps getting longer and longer. I’m reminded of a music podcast. I listen to a while back when some site had its list of top rappers, and these guys were complaining that a bunch of people were too low. So someone would ask like OK where do you put…Ghostface. The guy with says has to be top 20. DMX come up. God would say he has to be top 10. After a while, someone pointed out to him that he’s already got like 15 people in the top 20 and no one has even asked about Nas Jay Z biggie Wayne, and all these people who usually come up higher.

Like 20 years ago, you could give us a solid top 10. Pretty much everyone had some combo of Jordan, Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Bird, Magic, Oscar, West, and then you had Shaq who had forced his way in to get a spot Then you pretty much had Hakeem Baylor or Doctor J. There weren’t a lot of names to talk about. In 2004 Duncan was starting to get one of those other spots as well, but there would be some pushback. Same with Moses and Isiah. Mentioned but not big followings.

Now? You gotta find something to do with Kobe, Lebron, Steph, and depending on who you ask….Jokic, KD, and Wade types. You went from 12 or 13 names to damn near 20. Now you can pull up lists serious people make that have two or three MVPs with championships deep in the 20s.

You just…run out of room for the popular numbers.

So who is seriously sitting around like “I moved Jaylen Brown from one 122 to 86?”

These guys don’t really get a number yet. If somehow they keep the team healthy and don’t mind paying the literal $600 million a year is gonna cost to keep them together and they win four championships. I’m sure places like this will be some arbitrary number to Tatum But I don’t think his game is going to keep him in these discussions for very long. The impression I get from basketball fans is being more impressed with the Celtics as a team than any of them as individuals, and that is very hard to overcome.

In the end, people just have to think you’re unbelievable. I’m around a lot of basketball fans and a few people involved in the game. I don’t ever really hear Tatum talked about like that. I think they are too many people with great resumes who are all but forgotten to think that résumé alone will matter more to the public than how good they think you were individually.

I don’t think either of them right now would be remembered as era defining players. You only get like three of those guys And those spots are pretty firmly occupied with even people outside it likely being more highly regarded.

Like Anthony Davis. Health worries aside…is Tatum better than Anthony Davis?

AD was already all nba first team…10 years ago. And he’s out here as a 30ppg DPOY candidate who has a ring himself.

And he is nowhere in the era defining all timer conversations I hear.

And I don’t think you could get AD for Tatum for basketball reasons. Trade demand? Injury? Contract? The general business of the league? Ok. All things equal basketball swap? I don’t know. I wouldn’t.

That resume is gonna have to do some heeeeeavy lifting to overcome not really being seen as that elite individually. And 2 rings doesn’t lift that kinda weight.

It briefly did for Leonard but…people thought Leonard was that kinda great as a player as he was doing it.

Tatum? Not so much.

And Leonard wasn’t exactly spectacular far as being flashy himself.

Theres something hard to define. So we just call it “it”. Tatum doesn’t have that to most basketball types I know.

He might later though.

[Kblaze8855]

Look up Tatum and the word aura on Twitter and I think you’ll see what I mean. Feels like it’s taking the place of “it”. A lot of people just don’t think he’s that good. And you would think it was a fan only kind of thing but it’s reached the point NBA players and even Hall of Famer are discussing it. There’s Clip of Carmelo Anthony talking about it that led into a first take segment. For whatever reason people don’t feel him that much. People like that who don’t have the basketball culture feeling like they’re amazing? Their legacy is based on a sober unbiased look at resume from fans decades later who don’t have personal opinions.

And if that really worked…..resume over lack of “it” decades later….wouldnt Bob Pettit be ranked higher? I legit don’t know if he’s alive or dead. Resume has a tough climb over people not giving a **** about you.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum has scored more playoff points than anyone else since he came into the league. Including the ones with "aura." It really doesn't mean anything important to winning and losing. You might as well say he lacks "rizz." OK but he's still dating Ella's Mai.

[Carbine]

Tatum's individual resume is weak as it stands right now in comparison to other all timers by way of how we generally rank players

He has no MVP awards (not even a top 3 finish)

No Finals MVP awards

No DPOY, no All Defense selections

A reputation of not playing well in the playoffs overall (a couple big games aside)

He has one ring where he was not the clear cut best player and three all NBA first team selections going for him. He could win 3 more titles and that resume would still lack in the heavy hitting areas in these discussions.

[Kblaze8855]

Tatum has scored more playoff points than anyone else since he came into the league. Including the ones with "aura." It really doesn't mean anything important to winning and losing. You might as well say he lacks "rizz." OK but he's still dating Ella's Mai.

Precisely zero people in my life have mentioned playoff total points before Lebron weirdos decided it mattered when he led in it. I don’t think it’s gonna do any heavy lifting.

Its not really about “rizz” or “aura” I think those are just stand in for people not being that impressed when they watch him.

It’s just hard to give a solid reason why. But I’m not either so it’s hard to argue with it. I’m impressed in that I know it’s a great player. But I’m not “This guy is ridiculous” impressed. I’m like…Paul Pierce impressed. HOF impressed. Not “Ok where is he all time?” impressed.

Im not certain I’d take him over Pierce to be honest. Seems like that caliber of player just talking basketball. 01-08 Pierce with more possessions might be about like this.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum has the record for postseason points scored before the age of 27 and is a good bet to continue owning that record for the age of 28. He had the record for points scored in a Game 7 , has made the conference Finals in 5 of his 7 seasons and made the Finals twice. He lead the team in playoff points, rebounds and assists en route to a championship he apparently had nothing to do with. Only people that don't know what they're talking about would say he fails to perform in the playoffs.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It’s just hard to give a solid reason why. I know. Which is why I continue to disregard these kinds of arguments.

[tpols]

Paul Pierce was definitely better than Brown and Tatum. He had a truly elite bag.

Theres a reason prime Shaq upon playing him basically bowed down and nicknamed him "The Truth". In the early 2000s he was almost as good as Kobe. Guys like Tmac and Vince Carter were better too.

[Kblaze8855]

The argument doesn’t need the regard of Celtic fans to decide legacy in the real world. A fan base doesn’t have to agree with what the world thinks. They rarely do. All my friends are longtime basketball fans. Much of my family. I’ve been around a decent number of coaches lately as well. College but still. Basketball people. I literally spent the entirety of last year’s playoffs going across the country from the east to Indiana through the Midwest to Denver, then Vegas and through California and back across through Phoenix and Texas and back out east. Almost every place I stayed in a casino because I can stay free with a great room in many of them with my reward points. I was in the sports book watching the playoffs with other basketball fans(and degenerate gamblers no doubt) on a giant screen talking to people…almost nightly.

I just…. Don’t think people are that impressed with Jayson Tatum. It isn’t one fan base. It isn’t one kind of person. I’m talking from my friends kid who is in national basketball camps up to 70 year year-old coaches at the Local college my girlfriend granddad works for that I hang out at now and then and sit in on practice.

I’m not having like 30 minute conversations about Tatum with anybody, but he is not one of the players I generally hear people gush about. I have quite literally never met anybody who seemed blown away by Tatum. I’ve sat there and watched Him have great games with friends and strangers watching it with me and none of us seemed blown away. I distinctly remember sitting with strangers in Kansas City Live betting and Anthony Edwards had fans. Luka had fans. I went 3000 miles across this country around sports fans every night and didn’t hear one person repping Tatum. I’m talking country white people in Louisville Kentucky to Hispanics in Palm Springs. I’m getting a drink and some food somewhere around NBA games on TV and didn’t run into a single person who seemed to care about Tatum.

As I said, you don’t have to take it seriously, but in the end, it is basketball fans opinions that really put you where you are. If resume did it people would care about Moses Malone.

An era gets 3-4 eternal legends and the rest get kicked out of the boat. Cowens won mvp, finals mvp, 2 rings, had a gang of all star picks was a top defender and rebounder and all. Elvin Hayes made 13 straight all star games was all nba a bunch of those years. Led the league in scoring. Rebounds. Maybe blocks. Retired at like 27000 points which was probably 3rd or 4th at the time. Made 3 finals and won a ring. Was the leading scorer on all 3 of those teams I believe. Top 5 in rebounds all time. My dad’s friend who was in the league in the 70s thought he was just as good as Kareem. Still got kicked off the boat.

Resume will not get you anywhere if the public isn’t as impressed as your paperwork suggests.

Finals MVPs gets kicked off the boat.

Playoff points by 27 won’t even get you a ticket onto the boat to begin with.

To put it simply…people **** with you or they don’t.

Not like I’m saying he isn’t great. He isn’t even boring to watch which is often an issue. I’m saying there is limited room at the top and the space keeps getting stuffed with more guys who have both resume and way more respect from a basketball POV. You have to have both.

And if you lack one? Respect and admiration of fans is actually more damaging to be without.

People will rank a guy they thought was god tier highly without having the resume of some they don’t. Basketball respect alone can beat resume. If you can resume your way past people not being that impressed with you Hondo would be in every top 25 or better.

Takes something extra to last past your own era. Call it aura. It. Rizz. Whatever.

You don’t have it you don’t get a spot.

[Kblaze8855]

Paul Pierce was definitely better than Brown and Tatum. He had a truly elite bag.

Theres a reason prime Shaq upon playing him basically bowed down and nicknamed him "The Truth". In the early 2000s he was almost as good as Kobe. Guys like Tmac and Vince Carter were better too.


Kobe and Tmac yes. Pierce same level. Vince it depends on how serious he is at the moment which is a question I hate having to ask.

Tatum is gonna give you all he has more often than Vince id say. I dont know if Vince ever bought in on D to a level to replace Tatum even if his skill set would easily allow it.

[tontoz]

Pierce made 2nd team All NBA once in his career. Never made the first team.

Tatum has been first team 3 straight years.

[Wally450]

Rank them as a duo? Still below Durant and Steph honestly.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I am aware of the fact that a lot of people disregard Tatum for unquantifiable reasons. I called this topic stupid. But as a Celtic fan and someone that will argue in favor of Tatum most times I am satisfied knowing that he will continue to compile a kit of All-NBA teams (over plenty of players with "aura") and has a very fair shot at more championships. He could have another 10 years of great ball with luck, healthy habits and the right work ethic. Let him make his way up the records and awards until we can see the end of his prime and then maybe it's time for a topic like this.

But an all-time discussion for 26 and 28 year-old with no MVP? It's a stupid topic.

[Kblaze8855]

Pierce made 2nd team All NBA once in his career. Never made the first team.

Tatum has been first team 3 straight years.


that doesn’t say very much in different leagues. Not that it necessarily says much even in the same league. I wouldn’t take Julius Randle over Jimmy Butler even when he was second team and Jimmy was third. Nor do I think I’d have taken Siakam over Tatum in 2020.

it’s certainly suggestive, but not definitive even in the same league. 20 years apart versus entirely different groups of players? Not really a direct basketball comparison. Being behind Duncan, KG, Dirk and Peak Webber isn’t really the same thing as being first team with the second team being Brown and Jimmy Butler.

It fluctuates too much year to year to just list the number of times like it’s definitive across eras.

I imagine it’s going to look even more different going forward with the positional change and games minimum requirements.

[Kblaze8855]

I am aware of the fact that a lot of people disregard Tatum for unquantifiable reasons. I called this topic stupid. But as a Celtic fan and someone that will argue in favor of Tatum most times I am satisfied knowing that he will continue to compile a kit of All-NBA teams (over plenty of players with "aura") and has a very fair shot at more championships. He could have another 10 years of great ball with luck, healthy habits and the right work ethic. Let him make his way up the records and awards until we can see the end of his prime and then maybe it's time for a topic like this.

But an all-time discussion for 26 and 28 year-old with no MVP? It's a stupid topic.


thing is, I would really like to quantify it. I feel like I should have an answer to this since I have an opinion myself, but I really don’t. It’s not like I don’t like the guy. For quite a while there I was amused by his continued improvement if only because I remember him having a lot of weird haters at one point.

Definitely a great player. He plays something close to what I would consider the right way. He does play defense. He has a cringe personality, but a lot of people do. He isn’t someone I would say like he should be hated. He comes off as a bit try hard and like he really wants to be seen as great and have iconic moments and all. But he doesn’t do anything that I thinks would really warrant wanting to see him fall off.

He and Harden just don’t seem to get people behind them. And harden I understand. His style of play was one where you would watch it and hope he failed for like the good of the sport.

Tatum isn’t like that. Hes just out there playing. Maybe he just happened to come along with too many “Wtf is this?” guys at once.

One of the announcers when Jordan was hitting all those threes in the 92 finals had a line I’ve heard 1000 times in recaps. He was maybe four or five in and he said “What in the world…is going on…”.

That’s a feeling you get when you watch Jokic. Like…what is happening right now. You get it watching Steph. Luka. When Anthony Edwards is on you watch him and you just feel like this kid is going crazy right now. Lebron had that combo of physical dominance and total mastery that would have you thinking “He’s just not gonna let them lose”. Kobe had that. Shaq left you like “Wtf…you can’t do anything about that”.

Tatum just…has 34 points.

and it isn’t as simple as not being athletically spectacular. Dirk wasn’t athletically spectacular but you watch it and you get that Feeling that there is nothing anybody can do. He’s taking shots that should not be going in, but he’s just casually making them over and over and over.

I guess it’s why they call it “It”.

I can’t put my finger on it, but I don’t think I’ve ever watched Tatum play and had the “What is happening right now?” feeling.

I’ve had it watching Jimmy Butler. And Jimmy isn’t spectacular either. But you watch it and just feel like he is willing that team. Like he’s just the heartbeat of a team that isn’t good enough but he won’t let them lose. Oddly enough, he’s often doing it against the Celtics.

I don’t have any problems with him. I don’t have any problem with his team. Several people on the Celtics right now are among my favorite players. I’m not quite sure what the problem is, but I just don’t feel as amazed watching him play. It’s possible that the way the Celtics play makes it look too easy. I’ll have to watch and give it some thought. But right now? He’s just not one of the people I think I’ll be talking about as the best of this era but it’s entirely possible his résumé will say otherwise.

[tontoz]

that doesn’t say very much in different leagues. Not that it necessarily says much even in the same league. I wouldn’t take Julius Randle over Jimmy Butler even when he was second team and Jimmy was third. Nor do I think I’d have taken Siakam over Tatum in 2020.

it’s certainly suggestive, but not definitive even in the same league. 20 years apart versus entirely different groups of players? Not really a direct basketball comparison. Being behind Duncan, KG, Dirk and Peak Webber isn’t really the same thing as being first team with the second team being Brown and Jimmy Butler.

It fluctuates too much year to year to just list the number of times like it’s definitive across eras.

I imagine it’s going to look even more different going forward with the positional change and games minimum requirements.



Disregarding position Pierce was top 10 in the MVP voting once in his career. He was a good player but gets overrated due to nostalgia.

[Kblaze8855]

If anything I’d say Pierce gets pretty underrated. He gets pretty routinely mocked for suggesting he was an elite player. Is there some large contingent of Paul Pierce fans talking him up that I missed?

Who is sitting around talking about Paul Pierce being better than such and such? I don’t even remember the last time there was a Paul Pierce topic on here that wasn’t somebody making fun of him for something he said or maybe when he got fired by ESPN.

Where are you reading enough Pro Paul Pierce content to come away with the impression he’s being overrated? He’s not really even one of the people from his prime who comes up when fans get to talking about how such and such would be this or that in this league.

Im not sure the last time I heard his name said out loud in person.

[tpols]

Pierce made 2nd team All NBA once in his career. Never made the first team.

Tatum has been first team 3 straight years.


And the year Paul Pierce made 2nd team All NBA? 2009. When he wasn't nearly as good as he was in the early 2000s.

And the guys Pierce lost out to in that year for 1st team were 2009 Lebron, Wade, and Kobe. Who Tatum wouldnt have a prayer winning the spot over.

:confusedshrug:

[tontoz]

If anything I’d say Pierce gets pretty underrated. He gets pretty routinely mocked for suggesting he was an elite player. Is there some large contingent of Paul Pierce fans talking him up that I missed?

Who is sitting around talking about Paul Pierce being better than such and such? I don’t even remember the last time there was a Paul Pierce topic on here that wasn’t somebody making fun of him for something he said or maybe when he got fired by ESPN.

Where are you reading enough Pro Paul Pierce content to come away with the impression he’s being overrated? He’s not really even one of the people from his prime who comes up when fans get to talking about how such and such would be this or that in this league.

Im not sure the last time I heard his name said out loud in person.


I just read him getting overrated a couple of minutes ago due to nothing but nostalgia.

I liked Pierce and if i wanted a guy to take the last shot i would take him over Tatum. But for the rest of the game i take Tatum easily. The defensive gap is so big it there is no way to make an unbiased argument for Pierce.

[Carbine]

Tatum sure gets a lot of defensive love for never making any all NBA defensive teams and never receiving any votes for DPOY.

His biggest attribute is being able to play center against some lineups.

Is he really THAT guy on defense?

[Kblaze8855]

I just read him getting overrated a couple of minutes ago due to nothing but nostalgia.

I liked Pierce and if i wanted a guy to take the last shot i would take him over Tatum. But for the rest of the game i take Tatum easily. The defensive gap is so big it there is no way to make an unbiased argument for Pierce.





Ah so one of the most routinely disrespected stars of his time(among most current fans) Is overrated because you read one or two comments, despite the fact he gets routinely mocked and the only mentions he gets these days are people laughing that he thought he was Wade level and occasionally a “They don’t love you like that” Draymond quote from when he was laughing at him as well for wanting a farewell tour.

Pierce is the only one of those star early 2000 wings who ISNT generally praised when he comes up. He doesn’t get any of that “He’d destroy this league” talk that I hear. Not like the others.

Being overrated is a widespread thing isn’t it?

Are you overrated because someone somewhere has something good to say?

Someone thinks everything. General opinion?

I don’t think Pierce is particularly highly rated. He gets mocked more than his game justified.

[L.Kizzle]

A duo that doesn't get mentioned a lot but made 3 Finals in a 5 year span is Elvin Hayes/Wes Unseld back in the Bullet days.

[tontoz]

And the year Paul Pierce made 2nd team All NBA? 2009. When he wasn't nearly as good as he was in the early 2000s.

And the guys Pierce lost out to in that year for 1st team were 2009 Lebron, Wade, and Kobe. Who Tatum wouldnt have a prayer winning the spot over.

:confusedshrug:


Wade didn't make his first All-NBA team until 2005 which was year 7 for Pierce. Tatum is currently in year 8.

Lebron was a forward and Kobe was a guard. Pierce was competing with one or the other. He was never competing with both for All NBA.

[tontoz]

Ah so one of the most routinely disrespected stars of his time(among most current fans) Is overrated because you read one or two comments, despite the fact he gets routinely mocked and the only mentions he gets these days are people laughing that he thought he was Wade level and occasionally a “They don’t love you like that” Draymond quote from when he was laughing at him as well for wanting a farewell tour.

Pierce is the only one of those star early 2000 wings who ISNT generally praised when he comes up. He doesn’t get any of that “He’d destroy this league” talk that I hear. Not like the others.



He certainly won't get overrated by people who are in their 30s. But you couldnt even come up with a reason other than your feelings for rating Pierce even with Tatum.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum and the Celtics have done well against all of the guys you're talking about other than James early in Tatum's career. And even then it's not like Tatum faired badly vs James Cavs in the playoffs they just lost. Whatever this aura you think Doncic has we doesn't see a thing from him vs. Brown in the finals. Does Brown have aura? I don't know about these things but it's fine because I feel confident that we're in year 2 of the Tatum-Brown era.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Tatum sure gets a lot of defensive love for never making any all NBA defensive teams and never receiving any votes for DPOY.

His biggest attribute is being able to play center against some lineups.

Is he really THAT guy on defense?

If you have a much defensive talent as the Celtics do you are not going to ask the guy that is already the center of the offense and the top rebounder to also go check Steph Curry. That wouldn't make sense. But he does defend guys like Bam Adebayo and Giannis and can get switched into anyone. If Tatum could only defend 2s and threes the Celtics would either have to accept a defensive hole at pf or nine Holiday or White to the bench and start another big. Tatum's versatility is a key that makes the Celtics' defense possible. And with the game on the line if he's the best option to defend someone the Celtics will and have done their best to keep him in that guy.

[tpols]

Wade didn't make his first All-NBA team until 2005 which was year 7 for Pierce. Tatum is currently in year 8.

Lebron was a forward and Kobe was a guard. Pierce was competing with one or the other. He was never competing with both for All NBA.


Dirk was the other forward taken over Pierce, and he would have been taken over Tatum as well.

It's just a rudimentary analysis to use one myopic media accolade to classify one player over another. DeAndre Jordan has more 1st team All NBA teams than Paul Pierce. Doesn't mean shit.

If you watch both players play, Pierce was more capable than Tatum @ basketball. He had a bigger bag and wasn't a choke artist. Quite the opposite.

[tontoz]

Dirk was the other forward taken over Pierce, and he would have been taken over Tatum as well.

It's just a rudimentary analysis to use one myopic media accolade to classify one player over another. DeAndre Jordan has more 1st team All NBA teams than Paul Pierce. Doesn't mean shit.

If you watch both players play, Pierce was more capable than Tatum @ basketball. He had a bigger bag and wasn't a choke artist. Quite the opposite.

Dirk doesn't explain why Pierce made one 2nd team in his whole career. Dirk isn't the reason Pierce only made top 10 in the MVP race once in his career.

Tatum's ability to guard the Dallas centers was the big key to slowing down the Dallas offense in the Finals. He is a far better defender than Pierce ever was while being comparable on offense.

[tpols]

Dirk doesn't explain why Pierce made one 2nd team in his whole career. Dirk isn't the reason Pierce only made top 10 in the MVP race once in his career.

Tatum's ability to guard the Dallas centers was the big key to slowing down the Dallas offense in the Finals. He is a far better defender than Pierce ever was while being comparable on offense.

:roll:

That's... a totally absurd new angle you just took.

Tatum was trash in the 2024 NBA Finals. It was Jrue Holiday and Derrick White clamping Kyrie that made most of the defensive difference along with Porzingis rim protection to start the series. Also PJ going cold on open 3s he was drilling against OKC and Minny when the ball was funneled to him out of Luka and Irvings hands.

It's amazing how you're even repping him in that series like Paul Pierce couldn't out do what Tatum did in that matchup.

You've totally lost the plot mate.

:biggums:

[999Guy]

Kobe and Tmac yes. Pierce same level. Vince it depends on how serious he is at the moment which is a question I hate having to ask.

Tatum is gonna give you all he has more often than Vince id say. I dont know if Vince ever bought in on D to a level to replace Tatum even if his skill set would easily allow it.
Vince Carter could play defense when he was old as hell. I'm talking from 2010 Orlando all the way to 2017 Memphis Grizzlies.

He had the honor of getting slaughtered by peak Kawhi Leonard in the 2017 playoffs for this very reason. He was #1 defender on the guy all series. At 40 no less.

I think prime Vince is fine defensively compared to Tatum.

[tontoz]

:roll:

That's... a totally absurd new angle you just took.

Tatum was trash in the 2024 NBA Finals. It was Jrue Holiday and Derrick White clamping Kyrie that made most of the defensive difference along with Porzingis rim protection to start the series. Also PJ going cold on open 3s he was drilling against OKC and Minny when the ball was funneled to him out of Luka and Irvings hands.

It's amazing how you're even repping him in that series like Paul Pierce couldn't out do what Tatum did in that matchup.

You've totally lost the plot mate.

:biggums:



Did you even watch the Finals? :facepalm

Tatum guarding the Dallas centers is what blew up their pick and roll with Luka. Against other teams Luka could get the switch on the opposing centers and take advantage of them. Boston just put their center on PJ and put Tatum on Gafford/Lively. Dallas had no answer for that.

[tpols]

Vince Carter could play defense when he was old as hell. I'm talking from 2010 Orlando all the way to 2017 Memphis Grizzlies.

He had the honor of getting slaughtered by peak Kawhi Leonard in the 2017 playoffs for this very reason. He was #1 defender on the guy all series. At 40 no less.

I think prime Vince is fine defensively compared to Tatum.

I don't know where this notion Tatum is some elite defender really came about. He's literally mid at best on that end. Jrue, White and Brown are all better than him defensively on the perimeter, and Zingis / Horford are both better on the block and at the rim. Where did that notion come from?

[tpols]

Did you even watch the Finals? :facepalm

Tatum guarding the Dallas centers is what blew up their pick and roll with Luka. Against other teams Luka could get the switch on the opposing centers and take advantage of them. Boston just put their center on PJ and put Tatum on Gafford/Lively. Dallas had no answer for that.

They did though. PJ was open from 3. And unlike prior series he was super clutch, he bricked against Boston. That wasn't a Tatum thing. It was PJ just missing wide open shots thing. If he did that vs the Thunder or Wolves then Dallas would've lost.

[Real Men Wear Green]

:roll:

That's... a totally absurd new angle you just took.

Tatum was trash in the 2024 NBA Finals. It was Jrue Holiday and Derrick White clamping Kyrie that made most of the defensive difference along with Porzingis rim protection to start the series. Also PJ going cold on open 3s he was drilling against OKC and Minny when the ball was funneled to him out of Luka and Irvings hands.

It's amazing how you're even repping him in that series like Paul Pierce couldn't out do what Tatum did in that matchup.

You've totally lost the plot mate.

:biggums:
No matter how many times you get corrected you repeat the same stupidness. Tatum had scored more playoff points than anyone else since he came into the league. He shot badly in the last playoffs but still lead the Celtics in points, rebounds, and assists. He was virally important, even when his scoring wasn't efficient. He averaged 25 points 9.7 rebounds and 6.3 assists in the playoffs.

Doncic only shot 2% better in the playoffs. Is he a choker?

[tontoz]

They did though. PJ was open from 3. And unlike prior series he was super clutch, he bricked against Boston. That wasn't a Tatum thing. It was PJ just missing wide open shots.


PJ wasn't getting corner 3s against Boston because Luka couldnt get the advantage on the pick and roll he usually gets. PJ wasn't good at 3s up top all year and those are the shots Boston gave him. Against other teams PJ got the corner 3s that he made.

The Dallas centers couldn't take advantage of Tatum 1 on 1 and Luka couldn't gain an advantage on the pick and roll so that stymied their offense.

[tpols]

No matter how many times you get corrected you repeat the same stupidness. Tatum had scored more playoff points than anyone else since he came into the league. He shot badly in the last playoffs but still lead the Celtics in points, rebounds, and assists. He was virally important, even when his scoring wasn't efficient. He averaged 25 points 9.7 rebounds and 6.3 assists in the playoffs.

Doncic only shot 2% better in the playoffs. Is he a choker?

Dallas was the only legit playoff opponent Boston faced last year.

The Heat without Jimmy Butler, Cavs without Donovan Mitchell, and Pacers without Haliburton isn't a legit path. It was a joke. And you know it.

If Tatum had dominated the Mavericks I'd have to tip my cap... but he didn't. He played like shit relative to supposed superstar standards.

So that's why I find it funny you guys have put a twist on it that somehow that wasn't the case and he was great because he switched on Gafford or Lively a couple times.

:lol

It's amusing to me.

[Kblaze8855]

He certainly won't get overrated by people who are in their 30s. But you couldnt even come up with a reason other than your feelings for rating Pierce even with Tatum.


Couldn’t come up with a reason? Did you get the impression I was trying to fully back it up? You’ve spoken to me before right? Is that what me trying to make a point looks like?

I think they’re a similar level. I may lean Pierce but it depends on the team. And the time. I don’t view everything through a lens of “In the league today”.

Just talking basketball skillsets. And factoring in personality traits when needed as I did with VC.


Id say you put Kobe, Lebron, KD, Wade, and briefly Tmac on one level…Pierce, Tatum, Ray, Harden, Butler, Melo, Vince….on a different one. Then we can talk about if Luka is a wing or a straight guard and what you wanna do with Giannis. You can expand the list if you just want more names to not feel like you’re leaving people out. Throw Book in there on the second list. SGA is somewhere.

I don’t think any of them from top to bottom are as far as reputation would suggest on the same floor but that’s a different conversation.

There aren’t many comparisons you could make with all those guys I’d be offended you offered. Maybe a couple. Tatum isn’t far enough above any of them that I’d be shocked and appalled.

[MMM]

They did though. PJ was open from 3. And unlike prior series he was super clutch, he bricked against Boston. That wasn't a Tatum thing. It was PJ just missing wide open shots thing. If he did that vs the Thunder or Wolves then Dallas would've lost.

The mavs offense was big on corner 3s and lobs. The Celtics completely shut that part of their game and forced them into iso mid range and above the break 3s from mostly non shooters. Tatum guarding their bigs also meant luka/Kyrie were runnjng pick and roll with inferior screeners.

If you want to see what Tatum is capable of on 1 v 1 just look how he played Durant in 22. Ive haven't seen Durant struggle like that with a match up since TA.

Finally the Celtics have been the best defense going kn 4 years now so while Tatum wont stick out vs his other teammates it doesn't mean he's mid on defense

[Real Men Wear Green]

Dallas was the only legit playoff opponent Boston faced last year.

The Heat without Jimmy Butler, Cavs without Donovan Mitchell, and Pacers without Haliburton isn't a legit path. It was a joke. And you know it.

If Tatum had dominated the Mavericks I'd have to tip my cap... but he didn't. He played like shit relative to supposed superstar standards.

So that's why I find it funny you guys have put a twist on it that somehow that wasn't the case and he was great because he switched on Gafford or Lively a couple times.

:lol

It's amusing to me.

So Tatum is a choker because the Celtics faced injured opponents? Is that your logic now?

Again: in the same postseason Doncic only shot 2% better. Is he a choker?

[tontoz]

Couldn’t come up with a reason? Did you get the impression I was trying to fully back it up? You’ve spoken to me before right? Is that what me trying to make a point looks like?

I think they’re a similar level. I may lean Pierce but it depends on the team. And the time. I don’t view everything through a lens of “In the league today”.

Just talking basketball skillsets. And factoring in personality traits when needed as I did with VC.


Id say you put Kobe, Lebron, KD, Wade, and briefly Tmac on one level…Pierce, Tatum, Ray, Harden, Butler, Melo, Vince….on a different one. Then we can talk about if Luka is a wing or a straight guard and what you wanna do with Giannis. You can expand the list if you just want more names to not feel like you’re leaving people out. Throw Book in there on the second list. SGA is somewhere.

I don’t think any of them from top to bottom are as far as reputation would suggest on the same floor but that’s a different conversation.

There aren’t many comparisons you could make with all those guys I’d be offended you offered. Maybe a couple. Tatum isn’t far enough above any of them that I’d be shocked and appalled.



Exactly.

There are two ends of the court. Pierce and Tatum are comparable on one end. Tatum is far better on the other. I like Pierce's offensive skills better but Tatum has a length advantage and an athleticism advantage.

Production is what matters. Skills lead to production but they arent the only factor. Lebron didn't reach the level he did just because of his "skillset". His size and athleticism played a huge role. Pierce was a bit lacking in those areas. I always liked him though he could be a D at times.

[tpols]

So Tatum is a choker because the Celtics faced injured opponents? Is that your logic now?

Again: in the same postseason Doncic only shot 2% better. Is he a choker?

My logic is if somebody only played well vs crippled teams under 0 pressure, and played poorly against the only somewhat legit threat... sure.

He did the same thing in 2022 but even worse since Boston had Golden State on the ropes. And Andrew Wiggins of all people shut him down.

It's hard not to judge what you directly see. If Tatum dominated them I'd be singing a completely different tune.

[Real Men Wear Green]

My logic is if somebody only played well vs crippled teams under 0 pressure, and played poorly against the only somewhat legit threat... sure.

He did the same thing in 2022 but even worse since Boston had Golden State on the ropes. And Andrew Wiggins of all people shut him down.

It's hard not to judge what you directly see. If Tatum dominated them I'd be singing a completely different tune.

So the guy with the NBA record for points in a Game 7 only plays well when there's no pressure. I suppose you aren't legally required to make sense.

Again: 2%.

[tpols]

The funny thing about that is after Tatums epic Game 7, he went on to lose to the 8 seed in the ECFs with HCA.

:oldlol:

You can't make this stuff up.

[SouBeachTalents]

I'm genuinely curious what Pierce did in the playoffs that makes tpols thinks he was this clearly superior postseason performer than Tatum, I'll even cede that he hit several timely buckets.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The funny thing about that is after Tatums epic Game 7, he went on to lose to the 8 seed in the ECFs with HCA.

:oldlol:

You can't make this stuff up.

So somehow the losses there is all in Tatum but he had nothing to do with the championship they won last season (where he led the team in points, rebounds and assists).

2%. Moving on.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I'm genuinely curious what Pierce did in the playoffs that makes tpols thinks he was this clearly superior postseason performer than Tatum, I'll even cede that he hit several timely buckets.

tpols has decided to black out on every positive play Tatum has ever made. But it's nice to see Pierce get some praise.

[tpols]

I'm genuinely curious what Pierce did in the playoffs that makes tpols thinks he was this clearly superior postseason performer than Tatum, I'll even cede that he hit several timely buckets.

I never said Pierce was a better career post season performer in terms of totals or whatever. But that's mostly because he was drafted to the Celtics when they were terrible.

Hard to have post season success on a lotto team compared to one who could make the ECFs with you as a rookie. And have always fielded top notch help the entire time since.

Transplant Tatum into the ugly early 2000s eastern conference with antione walker and scrubs and poor coaching and management and see how things ride.

You guys are thinking in 2D.

[tontoz]

Tatum has played in 113 playoff games averaging 24/8/5 with a TS of 57%. He's been pretty good in the playoffs. His shooting struggles in the playoffs last season aren't the norm.

[Kblaze8855]

Exactly.

There are two ends of the court. Pierce and Tatum are comparable on one end. Tatum is far better on the other. I like Pierce's offensive skills better but Tatum has a length advantage and an athleticism advantage.

Production is what matters. Skills lead to production but they arent the only factor. Lebron didn't reach the level he did just because of his "skillset". His size and athleticism played a huge role. Pierce was a bit lacking in those areas. I always liked him though he could be a D at times.


The production thing I’ll just leave alone. Brother of us benefits from a then vs now thing on why numbers are different. I don’t know what either produces in the others time and it’s ultimately irrelevant. I doubt you disagree.

Skillset wise…I agree fundamentally. I think Pierce has the edge on offense and Tatums length and effort make him a better defender. And his ability to switch is key in this switch everything era. But that’s where one issue comes up for me…


In this positionless basketball defending one through five has never been easier. Well, isn’t the right word really because of the effort required to cover so much of the floor. Within reach might be better. Grant Williams might be the 5.

We aren’t talking about guarding Nash and Amare, or Shaq and switching onto Kobe, or starting on Duncan and taking Manu. It isn’t going from Yao to Tmac. It’s a star wing and a big who might shoot 77% because he has no role but uncontested dunks off cuts and lobs.

Both take effort to prevent but 1-5 these days? Vs a lot of matchups that just means you’re about 6’6” to 6’9”. The point and center might both be 6’7”.

Comparing it across eras is just getting harder and harder. Tatum is a better defender relative to his league than Pierce was so I’m ok if we wanna leave it at that.

I probably think the offensive difference is wider than you do though. Tatum looked pretty rough at times when he got Kobe obsessed and tried to play the way guys like Kobe and Pierce did. Hes fully bought into the current 5 out style. Which is great. It’s easier. Gets you better looks. I suspect Pierce could slid into that style easier than Tatum could take his though. They had to beat that Mamba mentality approach outta Tatum after he spent a summer working to be Kobe like.

Players aren’t asked to be what Pierce was. And for good reason. But I think it takes a bit more skill than I do as well as he did.

While avoiding a “In this soft ass league….” style discussion I’ll just say…I think Paul would have a good time out there now. And he’d probably be a pretty reliable switch as well.

[tontoz]

Pierce would certainly be effective in this era on offense. He would love the spacing for sure and would bully a lot of guys. He wouldn't love chasing guys around on the perimeter though.

If we could somehow combine them we'd have a MVP caliber player. Pierce surely had better skills on offense but Tatum's athleticism allows him to get more easy baskets inside than Pierce did.

A few years ago Tatum's selfish chucking early in the season made my eyes bleed. It was hard to watch but he's gotten over that now. He has become pretty good at bully ball.

I just get tired of people trying to take credit away from current players. The depth in the league is better than ever now due to the flood of international players so when old heads try to downplay the current players I am not buying it. Young guys have the advantage of YouTube, copying the moves older players. That leads to more skilled players overall.

[MrFonzworth]

The correct answer is that both their ranks lower because of how stacked to the brim the team is.

[Kblaze8855]

Am I talking about current players or am I talking about Tatum? Was Vince Carter not in the same league as Pierce? Did I say I would take him? Did I say Jokics or Steph didn’t stand out? Or did I say Tatum doesn’t?

It isnt discrediting anyone to say the league accomplished its stated goal of opening up the game through rule changes and different emphasis. They told us they were doing it when they did it. But that has nothing to do with how he compares to others in the same league and the mere fact that it is designed to be easier today doesn’t make every great player worse than previous great players.

As always it’s case by case.

I prefer Pauls game. I don’t prefer Glenn Robinson‘s or Jermaine O’Neals.

Tatum isn’t a guy like Luka making “Well…there’s nothing to be done about that skill level” plays as a regular part of his game.

Hes a great and well rounded wing who doesn’t…to me…stand out from the pack.

[tontoz]

"easier today"? How exactly is it "easier today"? If you make it easier on offense then by definition you have made it tougher on defense.

[Axe]

They're close to top 20, i guess.

[iamgine]

it's hard to increase your rank via title when you're not that special and your team is stacked.

Heck even if you were special like Durant, I don't think many non-casuals are counting his 2 titles in ranking him. Much less Tatum who didn't even get FMVP.

Unless you go Jamal Murray or Reggie Miller and just perform way above your regular season self in the playoff, it is what it is.

[Meticode]

Tatum will need to start winning a couple MVPs and stacking up his accolades more. He's still 26 years old. He has a long way to play. After this season he'll probably be around 14000 points for his career already.

[highwhey]

truth is, they had a cakewalk to the finals, and they're stacked af. no one is ranking them among tier 1 players (jordan, bron, bird, etc).

[Meticode]

truth is, they had a cakewalk to the finals, and they're stacked af. no one is ranking them among tier 1 players (jordan, bron, bird, etc).

*waits for triggered Kobe fans*

[John8204]

The Pierce vs Tatum debate is interesting....but it's not really the topic because Tatum is great we are also including Brown.

[Phoenix]

Tatum really is a weird case. The numbers all scream superstar, but his game and personality doesn't get him any attention. If he had Ant's personality, the national media wouldn't be pushing for the latter to be the next 'face'. Tatum has the resume and hardware, and on a prominent team, but something is definitely amiss. Getting buried on Team USA this summer didn't help the perception either.