Why isn't Lebron an elite shotmaker?

[StrongLurk]

Honestly shocking that Lebron never managed to became an elite shot maker. I have yet to hear any "legitimate" excuses for why. He's an elite scorer because he's the greatest scorer at two things - finishing at the rim and scoring in transition/semi-transition. But looking at his career splits for free throws, mid range, and threes, he's slightly below average in all of them. Not bad at all, but nowhere close to elite.

If a guy like Kawhi developed into an elite shot maker (free throw, mid, threes), then why didn't Lebron? Is it as simple as Lebron didn't work on his shot making enough, is it mental (his free throws are to some extent), or does he just lack the talent for that (weird to say). I think it's a combination of all 3.

If we JUST look at shot making, other perimeter GOATs are clearly ahead of him - MJ (goat 2-point scorer), Kobe (highest level of difficulty), Bird (elite shoot everywhere), Durant (probably best 3-level scorer ever), Curry (GOAT shooter). Magic is the only other perimeter GOAT in the 3-point era, and while he isn't a complete elite shot-maker either, he was at least a very good free throw shooter (mid 80's for career and had multiple seasons above 90%). Lebron really doesn't have anything specific for perimeter shot-making that he can say he is elite at. Him having just a couple of random seasons with decent midrange/3 point percentages always came on lower than league average volume.

It's not like his size prevented him for being elite a shotmaking. Guys like KG and Duncan have higher mid-range percentages than Lebron and they aren't even "shooters". Don't even get me started on guys like Dirk/Jokic who are literally elite shotmakers everywhere.

[highwhey]

https://i.postimg.cc/7YVwtgdK/IMG-4490.jpg

[SouBeachTalents]

You make quite a lot of LeBron threads.

[Shaquille O'Neal]

Lazy. Being an elite shooter takes hard work and repetition. When you're crowned the next greatest at age 18 and showered with millions in high school, why bother?

[StrongLurk]

You make quite a lot of LeBron threads.

You respond to all of them.

Also Lebron is the modern GOAT and most interesting man in the NBA. For me, I'm really only interested in him, Jokic, and eventually Wemby at this point.

I do think it's fair that the stans of the other perimeter GOATs point out Lebron's inability to consistently be a great/flexible scorer outside of the paint. It's not a major flaw at all, but it looks like one compared to the other perimeter GOATs.

We all know he legit would've surpassed MJ if he had the perimeter scoring ability that MJ, KD, Curry, Bird, and Kobe have.

[Im Still Ballin]

It isn't work ethic or mental, it's talent. Specificity matters; a guy can be good at one particular basketball skill but not another. LeBron has some athletic limitations which create skill deficiencies. For one, LeBron has always been somewhat mechanical and stiff, lacking a degree of flexibility that more fluid movers have.

He's wildly explosive/powerful. Just not smooth/fluid/graceful. Like Westbrook, Dwight, Giannis, etc. These guys vary regarding skill obviously. It's a general grouping that generally fits. Not an overly granular categorization but it works.

Fluidity is a term that gets thrown around a lot. Not many know what it is/understand it. It's a descriptor of movement. It describes how an athlete moves. A fluid athlete moves effortlessly and efficiently, like a dancer. They maintain balance and coordination from one physical position to the next.

Fluid/smooth movers have good flexibility throughout their bodies - the ankles, hips, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist, and hands.

LeBron's lack of fluidity affects his lateral movement and ability to move sideline-to-sideline in the half-court. Particularly while dribbling. He's very much more of a line-drive, run-and-jump, track-and-field type of athlete. Shoulder charge, goes through the guy. Shields his dribble with his big body.

His stiffness also affects his footwork/pivoting. And he's not a good two-footed leaper, whether from a standstill, off one or two steps, or a full run-up.

These are all things that are important for shot-making in the half-court set. Especially with the mid-range which is all about getting into the teeth of the defense/congested scrum. And the in-between game is his weakest area on offense.

[BlackMamba8]

You respond to all of them.

Also Lebron is the modern GOAT and most interesting man in the NBA. For me, I'm really only interested in him, Jokic, and eventually Wemby at this point.

I do think it's fair that the stans of the other perimeter GOATs point out Lebron's inability to consistently be a great/flexible scorer outside of the paint. It's not a major flaw at all, but it looks like one compared to the other perimeter GOATs.

We all know he legit would've surpassed MJ if he had the perimeter scoring ability that MJ, KD, Curry, Bird, and Kobe have.

Kid, no real man with integrity respects bron....you must be a burger flipper SMH

[Im Still Ballin]

TL;DR: Not the most fluid athlete. Doesn't move well laterally with a live dribble. Poor footwork, handles, and two-footed jumping limit his "bag" and ability to play the post/mid-range game in the half-court.

I don't think I missed anything...

[Manny98]

Most points in NBA history without being an elite shot maker, who would of thought :oldlol:

[3ba11]

Lazy. Being an elite shooter takes hard work and repetition. When you're crowned the next greatest at age 18 and showered with millions in high school, why bother?


Shot-making is partly natural - you can't teach someone how to be a pure scorer.

[BlackMamba8]

Most points in NBA history without being an elite shot maker, who would of thought :oldlol:

most missed shots in history? Most turnovers in history? Hmmm? ya shut the **** up

[StrongLurk]

Most points in NBA history without being an elite shot maker, who would of thought :oldlol:

I explained it in the OP. He's an elite scorer, but not an elite shot-maker (shot-maker is specifically for midrange shots, threes, and free throws). If players could ONLY score via shot-making, then Lebron would NOT be an elite scorer. I mean...we have the most player data ever to reference considering Lebron's played the most minutes ever. It can't get more "factual" that Lebron is not an elite shotmaker. He is literally average at best, generally slightly below average when factoring in volume as well. He can't shot-make like MJ, KD, Bird, Kobe, or Curry. These are facts supported by a huge amount of data and the eye test.

Lebron is still the second bet player ever in my opinion despite all of this. There is way more to basketball than just shot-making, but it is odd that Lebron as a mostly perimeter player never became on elite shotmaker despite having absurd raw talent/natural feel for basketball and ridiculous longevity. He has crazy work ethic too, but it's hard to tell how much he specifically prioritized working on his shotmaking ability. I think his free throw issues are a slightly separate topic and are more of a mental issue.

[StrongLurk]

It isn't work ethic or mental, it's talent. Specificity matters; a guy can be good at one particular basketball skill but not another. LeBron has some athletic limitations which create skill deficiencies. For one, LeBron has always been somewhat mechanical and stiff, lacking a degree of flexibility that more fluid movers have.

He's wildly explosive/powerful. Just not smooth/fluid/graceful. Like Westbrook, Dwight, Giannis, etc. These guys vary regarding skill obviously. It's a general grouping that generally fits. Not an overly granular categorization but it works.

Fluidity is a term that gets thrown around a lot. Not many know what it is/understand it. It's a descriptor of movement. It describes how an athlete moves. A fluid athlete moves effortlessly and efficiently, like a dancer. They maintain balance and coordination from one physical position to the next.

Fluid/smooth movers have good flexibility throughout their bodies - the ankles, hips, torso, shoulder, elbow, wrist, and hands.

LeBron's lack of fluidity affects his lateral movement and ability to move sideline-to-sideline in the half-court. Particularly while dribbling. He's very much more of a line-drive, run-and-jump, track-and-field type of athlete. Shoulder charge, goes through the guy. Shields his dribble with his big body.

His stiffness also affects his footwork/pivoting. And he's not a good two-footed leaper, whether from a standstill, off one or two steps, or a full run-up.

These are all things that are important for shot-making in the half-court set. Especially with the mid-range which is all about getting into the teeth of the defense/congested scrum. And the in-between game is his weakest area on offense.

Not a bad post. I did bring up "lack of talent" in my OP as well. He may just not have "it". Curry clearly has "it" for sure. KD too, KD at 20 years old was a better shotmaker than Lebron ever was.

[3ba11]

I explained it in the OP. He's an elite scorer, but not an elite shot-maker (shot-maker is specifically for midrange shots, threes, and free throws). If players could ONLY score via shot-making, then Lebron would NOT be an elite scorer. I mean...we have the most player data ever to reference considering Lebron's played the most minutes ever. It can't get more "factual" that Lebron is not an elite shotmaker. He is literally average at best, generally slightly below average when factoring in volume as well. He can't shot-make like MJ, KD, Bird, Kobe, or Curry. These are facts supported by a huge amount of data and the eye test.

Lebron is still the second bet player ever in my opinion despite all of this.


Lebron isn't an elite scorer, so you're just lying... no one thinks he's an elite scorer due to no bag, no shot, weak fundamentals, and weak shot-making ability... and baby hands.. he's just a driver - that's it..

You're just delusional by trying to make him an "elite scorer" when no one ever thought of him that way.. His scoring requires lower teammate production (he imposes spot-up roles that lower teammates APG and PPG - so this is horrible scoring ability... If you can't score a lot while maintaining elite chemistry, than you aren't an elite scorer.. period... this is bball101

this is the historical record for every teammate that wasn't already an elite shooter like Mo, Kyrie or Korver

[StrongLurk]

Lebron isn't an elite scorer, so you're just lying... no one thinks he's an elite scorer due to no bag, no shot, weak fundamentals, and weak shot-making ability... and baby hands.. he's just a driver - that's it..

You're just delusional by trying to make him an "elite scorer" when no one ever thought of him that way.. His scoring requires lower teammate production (he imposes spot-up roles that lower teammates APG and PPG - this is the historical record for every teammate that wasn't already an elite shooter like Mo, Kyrie or Korver

He's factually an elite scorer, one of the best to ever play the game. There isn't anything to debate there.

[3ba11]

He's factually an elite scorer, one of the best to ever play the game. There isn't anything to debate there.


No one thinks he's an elite scorer - fake thread - try again

No bag... no shot... no shot-making... doesn't command doubles.. opponents repeatedly exploit his one-dimensional game by guarding him with Diaw, or letting him iso over and over again because he's so bad at it (15' Finals)... the bum couldn't even shoot 40% against single coverage lmao

Your boy is a joke and currently the laughing stock of the league.

[Manny98]

No one thinks he's an elite scorer - fake thread - try again

No bag... no shot... no shot-making... doesn't command doubles.. opponents repeatedly exploit his one-dimensional game by guarding him with Diaw, or letting him iso over and over again because he's so bad at it (15' Finals)... the bum couldn't even shoot 40% against single coverage lmao

Your boy is a joke and currently the laughing stock of the league.
Not an elite scorer yet top 5 all time in virtually every scoring metric imaginable :facepalm

[ArbitraryWater]

What do you think it is, OP?

Why does leBron dare not be better in the mid range and 3P splits?

[Im Still Ballin]

LeBron would've been too OP if he was an elite mid-range guy.

His 2009 and 2018 playoff runs were examples of what he'd have looked like with one. I think he shot like 45% on 10 feet+ two-point shots for those postseasons. Decent volume and lots off the dribble. His usual numbers are like 37-38%.

[Im Still Ballin]

2018 Playoffs:

10-14 ft: 22/47 (46.8% FG) [95.5% unassisted]
15-19 ft: 29/68 (42.6% FG) [93.1% unassisted]
20-24 ft: 12/24 (50.0% FG)

TOTAL: 63/139 (45.3% FG)

8-16 ft: 35/77 (45.5% FG)
16-24 ft: 37/80 (46.3% FG)

TOTAL: 72/157 (45.9% FG)

Shot Area - Mid-range (Not in the paint; inside three-point line)

59/121 (48.8% FG)

--

He was taking around 6-7 mid-range shots a game depending on how you define them. At least like 90-95% of them unassisted, meaning mostly off the dribble.

[StrongLurk]

2018 Playoffs:

10-14 ft: 22/47 (46.8% FG) [95.5% unassisted]
15-19 ft: 29/68 (42.6% FG) [93.1% unassisted]
20-24 ft: 12/24 (50.0% FG)

TOTAL: 63/139 (45.3% FG)

8-16 ft: 35/77 (45.5% FG)
16-24 ft: 37/80 (46.3% FG)

TOTAL: 72/157 (45.9% FG)

Shot Area - Mid-range (Not in the paint; inside three-point line)

59/121 (48.8% FG)

--

He was taking around 6-7 mid-range shots a game depending on how you define them. At least like 90-95% of them unassisted, meaning mostly off the dribble.

I've made threads before claiming that 2009 Lebron WAS the best version of him. People usually responded with other Lebron years based off his "theoretical" abilities or winning bias, but IMO when we are just looking at on-court performance/impact, 2009 can be considered his best year. He was absurd in the regular season and literally off-the-charts in the 2009 playoffs.

[Im Still Ballin]

2009 Playoffs:

10-14 ft: 6/14 (42.9% FG) [100% unassisted]
15-19 ft: 22/38 (57.9% FG) [90.9% unassisted]
20-24 ft: 16/40 (40.0% FG)

TOTAL: 44/92 (47.8% FG)

8-16 ft: 11/29 (37.9% FG)
16-24 ft: 36/74 (48.6% FG)

TOTAL: 47/103 (45.6% FG)

Shot Area - Mid-range (Not in the paint; inside three-point line)

45/95 (47.4% FG)

--

Also around 6-7 mid-range shots per game. Close to 90% unassisted.

[tpols]

I mean you can't be elite at absolutely everything. But that is a weakness compared to other GOAT players. Take over offensive ability on all 3 levels is the supreme trait to look for in a 1st option superstar.

[Walk on Water]

We all know he legit would've surpassed MJ if he had the perimeter scoring ability that MJ, KD, Curry, Bird, and Kobe have.



This is not true. Certainly not. His defense is still far behind MJ. And Lebron would never be able to shoot like Curry, are you crazy? This shows how far he really is behind.

[StrongLurk]

I mean you can't be elite at absolutely everything. But that is a weakness compared to other GOAT players. Take over offensive ability on all 3 levels is the supreme trait to look for in a 1st option superstar.

What about Jokic?

[RRR3]

What about Jokic?
Bro thinks defense doesn't exist :oldlol:

[StrongLurk]

Bro thinks defense doesn't exist :oldlol:

We are talking about offense. Also Jokic is consistently a leader in deflections per game in the NBA the last few years and always has a high DBPM due to his high IQ and GOAT level defensive rebounding. He's not going to make an all-NBA defense team but he's clearly a solid defender at this point of his career (compared to say 5 year ago).

Regardless, this thread is about offense.

[RRR3]

We are talking about offense. Also Jokic is consistently a leader in deflections per game in the NBA the last few years and always has a high DBPM due to his high IQ and GOAT level defensive rebounding. He's not going to make an all-NBA defense team but he's clearly a solid defender at this point of his career (compared to say 5 year ago).

Regardless, this thread is about offense.
DBPM :roll:



























Dim :(

[ShawkFactory]

While he has excellent body control and overall, he lacks elite flexibility in the hips in the hips in particular. Because of that he doesn’t really have the footwork and “wiggle” to free himself up in tight spaces. Most midrange shots are then going to be highly contested or at awkward angles.

[StrongLurk]

While he has excellent body control and overall, he lacks elite flexibility in the hips in the hips in particular. Because of that he doesn’t really have the footwork and “wiggle” to free himself up in tight spaces. Most midrange shots are then going to be highly contested or at awkward angles.

He's not great at three's either, but that's not a problem. The only real issue I have with Lebron's entire game is his free throw shooting. There really is no excuse for him not being able to hit 80% from the line in his career.

[Walk on Water]

He's not great at three's either, but that's not a problem. The only real issue I have with Lebron's entire game is his free throw shooting. There really is no excuse for him not being able to hit 80% from the line in his career.


What makes you think he’s good enough to shoot 80 percent regularly?

[StrongLurk]

What makes you think he’s good enough to shoot 80 percent regularly?

All nba players should be able to hit 80% free throw shooting...

[RRR3]

All nba players should be able to hit 80% free throw shooting...
You would probably shoot 30% at the line if you were in the NBA :lol

And expecting bad shooters to shoot 80% is funny.

[Im Still Ballin]

He's not great at three's either, but that's not a problem. The only real issue I have with Lebron's entire game is his free throw shooting. There really is no excuse for him not being able to hit 80% from the line in his career.

Threes are easier to walk into I suppose. More space compared to the mid-range which is in the teeth/scrum of the half-court defense.

LeBron's shooting talent overall isn't elite anyway. He's best described as streaky and hovering between below-average to above-average. Below average from mid-range, average on free throws, and probably average on threes.