Was basketball better in the good old days of '99-'04?

[iamgine]

Was it better when teams scored like 90 ish points instead of 110+ we see today?

[highwhey]

that was a transitionary period, why not use the following 8 years? we had truly skilled stars back then. nothing of the fabricated giannas sort where you run through defenders like a running back and get a whistle to your benefit.

[Kblaze8855]

that was a transitionary period, why not use the following 8 years? we had truly skilled stars back then. nothing of the fabricated giannas sort where you run through defenders like a running back and get a whistle to your benefit.

People at the time said that was Wade. You should have been here for prime Eliteballer. Spent years on the Wade is ref created thing. Some weekly topic about who was better than Wade. Sprewell type guys.

[RRR3]

People at the time said that was Wade. You should have been here for prime Eliteballer. Spent years on the Wade is ref created thing. Some weekly topic about who was better than Wade. Sprewell type guys.
So you're saying Eliteballer's entire ISH career has been spent obsessively denigrating players he thinks threaten Kobe's standing?

[Kblaze8855]

And as for the topic…better isn’t the word. The defense was allowed to do more which made it more difficult for scorers to prosper but at the same time the offenses were making it as easy as possible either.

Id rather watch it overall but there are plenty of special guys to watch now. Ideally….id like to watch the older style with a select few players from now added to it.

[Im Still Ballin]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.

[Phoenix]

So you're saying Eliteballer's entire ISH career has been spent obsessively denigrating players he thinks threaten Kobe's standing?

I remember an argument I had with him years ago that he had the same vertical as Vince Carter.

[Phoenix]

As for the question, it was the polar opposite of today where the scale was tipped towards the defense. Alot of perimeter stars directly influenced by MJ, lots of iso ball. It wasn't really any more ideal than today, but there was still the spirit of competition, rivalries, guys showed up to work which the absence of those elements have turned off alot of fans today. 30 points was earned, it wasn't necessarily pretty, but it meant something. Your midrange game had to really be on point.

I agree with the above comment that mid 00s to mid 10s, the period when the perimeter rules were relaxed until the 3 point era pioneered by the Warriors, is the sweet spot

[Im Still Ballin]

The league really needs a lob city type of team. They were great to watch.

[Soundwave]

1987-1993 was the peak.

[RRR3]

1987-1993 was the peak.
Nah, a league full of guys who can't score outside of the paint is not exciting, pops.

[tpols]

Role players back then were far less skilled at shooting and especially 3pt shooting. The stars plenty of times back then had just as good efficiency as some stars today.

Playing in a cramped environment where your role players can't space for you and in an era where you can get hard flagrant fouled a lot more? Even the hyper efficency guys today would struggle with that.

[highwhey]

People at the time said that was Wade. You should have been here for prime Eliteballer. Spent years on the Wade is ref created thing. Some weekly topic about who was better than Wade. Sprewell type guys.

i do have some faint memories of someone pushing the "ghost" fouls theory and posting videos of calls that were questionable at times but at best they were just like most other superstar calls.

[highwhey]

The league really needs a lob city type of team. They were great to watch.

nash and amar'e were way more fun than cp3 and blake

[highwhey]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.

yup. some of the best ball i've ever watched was lebron's playoff rampages in the east series'. celtics big 3 was fun to watch. kobe and pau were fun as hell too. my favorite period of basketball bc i was alive to see it.

[tpols]

nash and amar'e were way more fun than cp3 and blake

What about DeAndre Jordan?

[Kblaze8855]

Those Suns vs those clippers would be a crazy ass series. Depending on the year you would have some combo of Nash, Paul, Amare, Blake, DJ, Joe Johnson, JJ, Crawford, Barbosa, qrich…

Not sure what the two best years to use would be but it would be fun either way.

[highwhey]

What about DeAndre Jordan?

amar'e put on a better dunk/poster show than those 2.

[warriorfan]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.

Dwight’s magic in the mix being an interesting team as well. Chicago also had a period where they were emerging as a threat.

I agree with this take though. This period felt like it had a lot of parity and different styles of teams.

[Manny98]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.
This 08-16 was the best most entertaining era in the NBA

[SouBeachTalents]

Lmao, everyone agrees with ISB '08-'16 was the modern day golden era of the league, you can put me in that camp too. I do think though if KD signs literally anywhere else but Golden State, that would've extended through the end of the 2010's.

[pandiani17]

Those Suns vs those clippers would be a crazy ass series. Depending on the year you would have some combo of Nash, Paul, Amare, Blake, DJ, Joe Johnson, JJ, Crawford, Barbosa, qrich…

Not sure what the two best years to use would be but it would be fun either way.

The Suns' best year was the 2004-05, when they had Joe Johnson and Quentin, and before Amare went through surgery. They took the league by storm, going from a lottery team to a serious contender. Afterwards they were still good but I don't think they were such a strong threat again. In 2005 people really expected them to win.

About the topic, I like the 80s, with the fast pace and great teams of that era: The Showtime Lakers, Bird's Celtics, Dr. J's Sixers, the Bad Boys, lots of young talent emerging (MJ, Barkley, Stockton, Malone, Olajuwon, etc.).

[RRR3]

Lmao, everyone agrees with ISB '08-'16 was the modern day golden era of the league, you can put me in that camp too. I do think though if KD signs literally anywhere else but Golden State, that would've extended through the end of the 2010's.
And LeBron won the most rings of any player in that era. GOAT. Silver had to change the league to prevent him for getting enough to pass MJ

[highwhey]

Lmao, everyone agrees with ISB '08-'16 was the modern day golden era of the league, you can put me in that camp too. I do think though if KD signs literally anywhere else but Golden State, that would've extended through the end of the 2010's.

i brought it up first...

[ArbitraryWater]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.


Its hard for me to group anything from mid 00s to mid 2010s since basketball was changing a lot at that time.

I feel like 2011-2021 (might as well do the 2010s) was a really good period where the 3 ball was fully implemented but not yet overused.

I do like the slower basketball of the 2000s as well though.

But early 00s were offensively impoverished and too low scoring, 2006s was a defense-less joke, and late 2000s were still pretty outdated as far as using the long shot and it was a weird time where Kobe was the only top 5 player with good support / all-star sidekick.

[j3lademaster]

i brought it up first...

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTywNqmTjPDFHapIakX2dxDhvhranLca xxtBA&s

[highwhey]

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTywNqmTjPDFHapIakX2dxDhvhranLca xxtBA&s

hold on, lemme grab a glass of ISB's moms titty milk

[j3lademaster]

hold on, lemme grab a glass of ISB's moms titty milk

:roll:

[999Guy]

3P eras ranked:
2005 - 2011
2012 - 2016
1987 - 1993

gap

2017 - 2021
1994 - 1998
1999 - 2004
1984 - 1987
2022 - ?
1980 - 1984

The top 3 saw amazing primes and peaks. With good playstyles around the league to match.

The next 5 are transition periods for talent in the league. And some periods with shit play styles on top of it.


Very impartial to 2017 to 2021 and 1994 to 1998. The year 2020 had an insanely loaded top 10 to 15 in the NBA. But play styles were slipping big time.

And the quality of the average mid-90's game was pretty high. Just lacking that star power of before. The guys who carried the late 80s and early 90s were just old by then.

[90sgoat]

99-04 was an uncharacteristic bad period with a lot of the new young guns failing to live up to the hype, lots and lots of clanked mid range shots.

The NBA tried to frame it as defense being too overpowered, but it was mostly due to the first batch of AAU players not being able to hit open midrange shots.

[Micku]

It's a little funny that people on the site is at the point now to reminiscing about the good ole days.

But people back then in the late 99-04 were hating on that era. Saying that the 80s and early 90s were better. You had Bill Simmons writing articles back then talking about how fans were begging the nba to return to what they were in the 80s.

You'll find guys like Shaq, Sheed, and some of the old timers doing the same thing to this current era as the older guys were doing to Shaq's Sheed era. You'll see guys like Wilt crap on their era in interviews. Guys like talking about how you couldn't defend MJ due to the rules in 91 and how the league made the rules softer.

You can see how MJ and Pippen were complaining about how the refs let AI carry the ball all the time when he was a rookie lol. And how they would call it back in the 80s.

It's a cycle.

But personally, each era there is something to like.

99-04 - when stars stood out, they really stood out. AI was crazy popular. Seeing Shaq was crazy. And watching the Kings play that style of offense back then was amazing. Dallas when they had Dirk, Nash, and Michael Finely.

I loved the play styles of the 10s and 90s.

I feel like in both eras, you had different play styles with teams having different actions.

Like in the 10s - You obviously had the Heat, who ran mostly horn sets. Spurs with their motion offense. OKC with their heavy iso, and the crazy talent that they had. Boston use a lot pick and pop. GSW revolutionize the game with Curry and adapted the Spurs offense, but added their own variance. Harden played that Morey ball with the Rockets. There's a lot to like.

The 90s had something similar too. Bulls with the Triangle. Jazz with the pick and roll. Knicks had the physical defense. Lakers with Shaq, Kobe, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel. Although their offense was more sloppy.

Every era has something that's cool. This era is more 3pt contest tho. Soon enough, people are going to reminisce about this era and call it the golden age. I think this era has crazy amount of talent. Probably the most talent since the 80s. It's fun to watch the superstars in this era. Don't like the reliance on the 3 ball as much. I do like the balance of the 10s.

[Chick Stern]

the 90s was the weakest era.
By the 00s the non-American talent had really taken hold.

[Im Still Ballin]

:bowdown:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBiy-Ij4yvY

[Phoenix]

It's a little funny that people on the site is at the point now to reminiscing about the good ole days.

But people back then in the late 99-04 were hating on that era. Saying that the 80s and early 90s were better. You had Bill Simmons writing articles back then talking about how fans were begging the nba to return to what they were in the 80s.



You're correct. All the Millennial and Gen Z 'we done with the 90s' folks will soon be defending this era against Gen Alpha in another 10 years or so. The current crop of NBA stars will be shitting on whoever is dominating the league in 2050. 'Back in my day'.....
The cycle will continue.

[warriorfan]

You're correct. All the Millennial and Gen Z 'we done with the 90s' folks will soon be defending this era against Gen Alpha in another 10 years or so. The current crop of NBA stars will be shitting on whoever is dominating the league in 2050. 'Back in my day'.....
The cycle will continue.

It is a cycle for sure and it does transcend sports. Rose tinted glasses are a thing.

But even that being accounted for I still think the regular season product of now is worse than 15 years ago.

[Phoenix]

It is a cycle for sure and it does transcend sports. Rose tinted glasses are a thing.

But even that being accounted for I still think the regular season product of now is worse than 15 years ago.

I think it is too, but the only metric we really have to go off beyond our personal preferences for play style is how the game seems to be trending in terms of fan interest. I don't recall declining ratings being such a major issue in the 35+ years I've been watching the NBA, not like now anyway. There was probably a dip when MJ retired for good from the Bulls but the league eventually created new stars with Kobe, Vince, AI, Garnett, etc and that generation I think is generally looked at now as the last of a dying breed. I've actually been saving some 90s games on my youtube to watch and I may start doing the same for the early 2000s stuff so I can start doing some more direct comparisons with today instead of relying on my fading memory. The thing is, regardless of whether there were some ugly aspects of early 2000s ball, there was still a sense of competitive pride that is simply lacking now. Everyone is eating real well today, from the franchise star to the role player, so something has been lost. These guys don't feel hungry, moreso its like 'let's get this bag' and the fans can sense it.

Right now we really seem to have a growing backlash against the league, and it's not just from the older generation. The league is losing younger fans too, and the older fans are tossing their hands up in disgust and tuning out. There's no Iverson on the horizon that started a cultural movement, there's no Kobe and Lebron to garner massive fanbases that generated barbershop discussions. I heard a comment the other day that I hadn't even considered, the most visible American player right now may be Caitlin Clark. Antman and Ja are exciting but they aren't increasing fan interest, and the foreign stars aren't moving the needle. The league has a problem in this area and we've talked about this on here a few years ago. If this was happening in other sports like Football and Baseball, it would be easier to write this off as society in general losing interest because of reasons A, B and C. But this is very much an NBA specific problem.

[warriorfan]

I think it is too, but the only metric we really have to go off beyond our personal preferences for play style is how the game seems to be trending in terms of fan interest. I don't recall declining ratings being such a major issue in the 35+ years I've been watching the NBA, not like now anyway. There was probably a dip when MJ retired for good from the Bulls but the league eventually created new stars with Kobe, Vince, AI, Garnett, etc and that generation I think is generally looked at now as the last of a dying breed. I've actually been saving some 90s games on my youtube to watch and I may start doing the same for the early 2000s stuff so I can start doing some more direct comparisons with today instead of relying on my fading memory. The thing is, regardless of whether there were some ugly aspects of early 2000s ball, there was still a sense of competitive pride that is simply lacking now. Everyone is eating real well today, from the franchise star to the role player, so something has been lost. These guys don't feel hungry, moreso its like 'let's get this bag' and the fans can sense it.

Right now we really seem to have a growing backlash against the league, and it's not just from the older generation. The league is losing younger fans too, and the older fans are tossing their hands up in disgust and tuning out. There's no Iverson on the horizon that started a cultural movement, there's no Kobe and Lebron to garner massive fanbases that generated barbershop discussions. I heard a comment the other day that I hadn't even considered, the most visible American player right now may be Caitlin Clark. Antman and Ja are exciting but they aren't increasing fan interest, and the foreign stars aren't moving the needle. The league has a problem in this area and we've talked about this on here a few years ago. If this was happening in other sports like Football and Baseball, it would be easier to write this off as society in general losing interest because of reasons A, B and C. But this is very much an NBA specific problem.

Well said. I don’t think I can really disagree with any of this. Uploading classic games will be cool though. It’s fun to check out those games and also double check ourselves that we aren’t OD’ing off nostalgia.

[Phoenix]

Well said. I don’t think I can really disagree with any of this. Uploading classic games will be cool though. It’s fun to check out those games and also double check ourselves that we aren’t OD’ing off nostalgia.

Well the first game I watched recently was a 96 Bulls-Rockets game in Houston( Chicago won). It's a bit jarring seeing the lack of spacing and guys were bricking open 3's. Not that I forgot,but my brain has been tuned into current ball so I had to readjust. It was cool watching the classic inside-out play with Houston feeding Hakeem and the Bulls getting stuck in some 'pick your poison' defensive sequences either doubling him or giving up a few 3's. We were robbed of seeing these two in a finals...

I'm actually thinking about finding some AI upscaling programs to see if I can improve the video. Watching 360p resolution 90's games on a 4KTV is brutal.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dwight’s magic in the mix being an interesting team as well. Chicago also had a period where they were emerging as a threat.

I agree with this take though. This period felt like it had a lot of parity and different styles of teams.


This is true/interesting because while 08-10 was still kind of lacking 3P shot wise, you did have a few teams here or there which either represented the past or the future.

The game itself was not that balanced (very 2P heavy) but you had a mix of certain teams which represented all timelines kind of.

Of course the 2009 Magic or 2011 Mavericks didnt shoot nearly as many 3s as teams today, but they were the blueprint. And the Suns ushered in the faster game.


The Mavericks destroying the b2b champs Lakers with 20 3s in game 4 was kind of symbolic of an era change.

Nothing was ever the same.

[Micku]

I think it is too, but the only metric we really have to go off beyond our personal preferences for play style is how the game seems to be trending in terms of fan interest. I don't recall declining ratings being such a major issue in the 35+ years I've been watching the NBA, not like now anyway. There was probably a dip when MJ retired for good from the Bulls but the league eventually created new stars with Kobe, Vince, AI, Garnett, etc and that generation I think is generally looked at now as the last of a dying breed. I've actually been saving some 90s games on my youtube to watch and I may start doing the same for the early 2000s stuff so I can start doing some more direct comparisons with today instead of relying on my fading memory. The thing is, regardless of whether there were some ugly aspects of early 2000s ball, there was still a sense of competitive pride that is simply lacking now. Everyone is eating real well today, from the franchise star to the role player, so something has been lost. These guys don't feel hungry, moreso its like 'let's get this bag' and the fans can sense it.

Right now we really seem to have a growing backlash against the league, and it's not just from the older generation. The league is losing younger fans too, and the older fans are tossing their hands up in disgust and tuning out. There's no Iverson on the horizon that started a cultural movement, there's no Kobe and Lebron to garner massive fanbases that generated barbershop discussions. I heard a comment the other day that I hadn't even considered, the most visible American player right now may be Caitlin Clark. Antman and Ja are exciting but they aren't increasing fan interest, and the foreign stars aren't moving the needle. The league has a problem in this area and we've talked about this on here a few years ago. If this was happening in other sports like Football and Baseball, it would be easier to write this off as society in general losing interest because of reasons A, B and C. But this is very much an NBA specific problem.



Yeah. When I rewatch "old" basketball games, I can't believe how unpolished it was back then in comparison how it is now. Like I knew it was, but watching it again feels different. With the set plays, lack of spacing, shot selection and etc. But there was a certain a charm to it. But in terms of attracting the masses as you said the lack of American marketable stars plays apart to it. That was also an issue after MJ retired, but Shaq/Kobe/AI/Duncan carried it. Although Duncan didn't draw as many ppl as Shaq/Kobe. And then LeBron/Curry/KD carried it afterwards.

We don't have that right now in the nba. I think the first time ever, the top 4 players are all foreign. Not to say they aren't great, but they aren't as marketable the generation prior. But that's just one of many problems the league has to attract the masses.

NBA doesn't have a Caitlin Clark that could generate interest. After LeBron/Curry/KD retires, who is going to be the next marketable player? Tatum doesn't seem to be cutting it. ANT and Ja aren't there yet. Jokic doesn't want it. Luka/Giannis aren't moving the needle. Embiid is always hurt.

[Phoenix]

Yeah. When I rewatch "old" basketball games, I can't believe how unpolished it was back then in comparison how it is now. Like I knew it was, but watching it again feels different. With the set plays, lack of spacing, shot selection and etc. But there was a certain a charm to it. But in terms of attracting the masses as you said the lack of American marketable stars plays apart to it. That was also an issue after MJ retired, but Shaq/Kobe/AI/Duncan carried it. Although Duncan didn't draw as many ppl as Shaq/Kobe. And then LeBron/Curry/KD carried it afterwards.

We don't have that right now in the nba. I think the first time ever, the top 4 players are all foreign. Not to say they aren't great, but they aren't as marketable the generation prior. But that's just one of many problems the league has to attract the masses.

NBA doesn't have a Caitlin Clark that could generate interest. After LeBron/Curry/KD retires, who is going to be the next marketable player? Tatum doesn't seem to be cutting it. ANT and Ja aren't there yet. Jokic doesn't want it. Luka/Giannis aren't moving the needle. Embiid is always hurt.

Same for Wemby. As much hype as he's garnered I don't think the average person really roots for Goliath. Shaq was that but he had a marketable personality, Wemby is more low-key. In fact it almost feels like the 'buzz' around him has already settled 2 years in? I remember back in 2000, I was in college in Canada as an Int'l student and watching tons of Raptor games on TSN. The hype around Vince Carter was absolutely insane. There's just no needle movers currently in the league.

[ILLsmak]

Love it.

-Smak

[Wally450]

Late '00s to mid '10s was peak. From like 2008 to 2016 - Boston and LA's resurgence, redeem team, Big three Miami, young OKC, the Spurs machine, the beginning of the GSW dynasty, LeBron, Kobe, KD, Curry, etc.

:bowdown:

[Axe]

It is a cycle for sure and it does transcend sports. Rose tinted glasses are a thing.

But even that being accounted for I still think the regular season product of now is worse than 15 years ago.
Remember when the warriors almost won 50 games in 2008 but never made the playoffs? Meanwhile, during the same year, the hawks still made the 8th seed despite having 37 wins. :lol

[Soundwave]

Nah, a league full of guys who can't score outside of the paint is not exciting, pops.

The general public says no thanks to your brand of shitty outside shooting fests, and the TV ratings and popularity of the league reflect that. Might as well just watch a women's game with Caitlyn Clark in it if you're just going to watch a bunch of jump shooters, and many people are actually opting to do just that, league is wussified.

Whereas 87-91 saw the biggest growth in the popularity of the game by far, massive increases in TV ratings, and they don't have stars like Jordan, Bird, Magic anymore. Even Shaq circa 1992 is more famous/popular than any of the NBA's unlikable current dud stars.

87-91 had fun offense, tough defenses, great riveting rivalries, great likable massively marketable superstars that dominated pop culture (not just basketball nerds jerking each other off over their dumb debates, but actual mainstream pop culture appeal to even non-basketball fans). Players that played hard even in All-Star games (imagine that). Magic, Bird, Jordan, Barkley, Shaq arriving in 1992, etc. etc. ... never going to have that again IMO.

The intensity just isn't there for modern games and the new players are boring.

[BarberSchool]

Going to the bucket was better back then.

I would extend it a bit in both directions.

I’d say the peak of dunking in basketball started with Nique (sorry Doc) and finished with Blake Griffin. There will be others, but Morant ain’t one of em. Son weighs 168lbs lol

[Soundwave]

99-04 was an uncharacteristic bad period with a lot of the new young guns failing to live up to the hype, lots and lots of clanked mid range shots.

The NBA tried to frame it as defense being too overpowered, but it was mostly due to the first batch of AAU players not being able to hit open midrange shots.

Even 99-04 was still relatively exciting compared to today.

You had Vince Carter come into the league and he was doing something spectacular or crazy seemingly every week. Literally jumping over people at the Olympics to dunk on them, the 2000 Dunk Contest of course, etc. etc.

Shaq-Kobe, Kobe-Shaq 3 peat and seeing Kobe come into his own as a superstar was interesting at least.

Tim Duncan's ascension.

Think about how intense a Lakers-Kings game was from that era ... I'd much rather watch that than anything in the modern game.

The main thing that sucked was T-Mac didn't stick around in Toronto with Vince, otherwise we'd have had Lakers-Raptors Finals like Kobe told Vince. That would've been fun too.

[RRR3]

Even 99-04 was still relatively exciting compared to today.

You had Vince Carter come into the league and he was doing something spectacular or crazy seemingly every week. Literally jumping over people at the Olympics to dunk on them, the 2000 Dunk Contest of course, etc. etc.

Shaq-Kobe, Kobe-Shaq 3 peat and seeing Kobe come into his own as a superstar was interesting at least.

Tim Duncan's ascension.

Think about how intense a Lakers-Kings game was from that era ... I'd much rather watch that than anything in the modern game.

The main thing that sucked was T-Mac didn't stick around in Toronto with Vince, otherwise we'd have had Lakers-Raptors Finals like Kobe told Vince. That would've been fun too.
70-62 scores where both teams shot 30% is not exciting, pops.

[HoopsNY]

The 2000s as a whole offered the best brand of basketball that we've seen. It offered the high intensity defensive slugfest that we enjoyed from the 90s but also a mix of offensive schemes that gave fans a different taste of play every night.

And1 had really taken off back then in the early 2000s and had an obvious impact on the game, more so than the Globe Trotters in previous eras. So while we had rag tag teams and defenses, we got to see guys like Jason Williams, Stevie Franchise, Baron Davis, Jamal Tinsley, A.I., etc.

We had high flying dunks, three point shooting, run and gun offenses like Phoenix, Sacramento, and Dallas. We had post play of Duncan, Sheed, Shaq, Yao, and Malone. We also saw more stretch bigs and guys who were 6'10" who could take it out mid-range, shoot the three, or handle the ball like C-Webb, Dirk, KG, Okur, Sheed, etc.

I honestly feel the 2000s had a bit of everything for everyone. Who didn't enjoy Reggie, Ray, or Peja lighting up the court? Who didn't enjoy seeing Steve Francis, Crawford, or Baron Davis crossover dribbles? J. Kidd, Steve Nash, CP3, or J-Will on the fast break? Vince, T-Mac, Kobe, J. Rich, Nate Rob, Dwight, Iguodala, or LeBron throwing it down?

But I also liked Portland, Detroit, San Antonio, or Boston's defensive intensity. It was just quality play all around. 2000-10 was arguably the most balanced decade.

[HoopsNY]

70-62 scores where both teams shot 30% is not exciting, pops.

Teams averaged around 95 PPG back then and shot 44-45%. I agree it was a bit too defensive at times, but if we expand it to the decade as a whole, it turned into one of the best if not the best decade.

I also recall much more hype with regards to matchups. People were genuinely excited at some playoff matchups, even if it wasn't the NBA finals. Since the GS/CLE series of 2016, I haven't felt that kind of excitement towards any particular matchup. But I'm not an active fan now as I was back then. I don't watch the league at all anymore.

[StrongLurk]

No, 1994-2004 is the worst "format" of basketball in the 3-point era. I'm not biased either, because this is what I grew up watching. Plenty of great superstars and legendary dynasties (Bulls, Lakers, Spurs). But the "format" of the league was bad, the team building was bad, clunky offenses, no 3-point shooting across the league, and the role player ability was still limited. Too slow/clunky.

The current "format" of basketball (2021-now) definitely has a lot of problems, but in the oppositive direction (too fast/wide open). But what the league has going for it is more talent than ever top to bottom (total global talent pool), interesting team building mechanics, analytics (which are a positive, not negative), and other things I'm too lazy to type out. The only major issue for the new era is that the NBA rules HELP the offensive players too much. The NBA rules used to be something that offensive players had to OVERCOME, but the current rules simply ENHANCE the offensive player too much.

All the NBA needs to do is bring back a few rules that add more challenge to the offensive side (call traveling/carries like they used to be called, allow nba defenders to camp close to the basket for 5 seconds if that is the strategy the defense wants to go with, do NOT call fouls when defenders are close to the shooters landing space, stop rewarding continuous foul baiters like Harden, Embiid, Jimmy Butler, and actually call moving screens instead of letting the offensive screeners move around like crazy which started with the 2015 Warriors). This would make the game closer to the 06-2014 era, but with even more talent.

I don't care if teams still want to try to shoot a ton of threes, but it's crazy how the Durant/Curry/Klay Warriors just 5-6 years ago would be DEAD LAST in 3PA currently. That's ridiculous. The NBA rules used to be a PHD-level TEST for NBA players, but now the rules are like a normal College-level test. It's just too easy for everyone to do whatever they want on offense.

[Phoenix]

I also recall much more hype with regards to matchups. People were genuinely excited at some playoff matchups, even if it wasn't the NBA finals. Since the GS/CLE series of 2016, I haven't felt that kind of excitement towards any particular matchup. But I'm not an active fan now as I was back then. I don't watch the league at all anymore.

There was, because players actually went at it. Kobe and Tmac went at it, Kobe and Iverson went at it, Wade and Lebron went at it, Duncan and Garnett went at it, and so on and so forth. Go back to the 90s with all those epic center battles, Shaq vs Ewing, Hakeem vs Admiral, and so forth. Nowadays I can't get too excited at 'star matchups' because I've been disappointed one too many times at one of them being out, and the way teams defend nowadays with alot of switching and/or just having these guys generally avoid each other, it's not the same sense of 'mano a mano' with the margquee games anymore.

[RRR3]

Teams averaged around 95 PPG back then and shot 44-45%. I agree it was a bit too defensive at times, but if we expand it to the decade as a whole, it turned into one of the best if not the best decade.

I also recall much more hype with regards to matchups. People were genuinely excited at some playoff matchups, even if it wasn't the NBA finals. Since the GS/CLE series of 2016, I haven't felt that kind of excitement towards any particular matchup. But I'm not an active fan now as I was back then. I don't watch the league at all anymore.
Post 2004 was good stuff, but 1999-04 was a deadball era. Defense was way too overpowered, and we're still dealing with the effects of the league reacting to that. The players are better than they've ever been on average, the ridiculous rules are just making it irritating to watch. Allow more defense, and this era would be the best.

[Phoenix]

As I think was said somewhere, the decade between like 2005 and 2015 was the sweet spot. I was watching the 2016 Warriors and OKC game two days ago, the one when Curry did this:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/6-16-2016/gmjiFA.gif
https://i.makeagif.com/media/4-14-2016/tO0rWu.gif

And its crazy how tame and scaled back the 3point attempts seemed then. And Curry had 12 in this game but still, somehow it all felt like less spamming than now. It was more organic and specific to the Warriors because of who Steph and Klay were.

[HoopsNY]

Post 2004 was good stuff, but 1999-04 was a deadball era. Defense was way too overpowered, and we're still dealing with the effects of the league reacting to that. The players are better than they've ever been on average, the ridiculous rules are just making it irritating to watch. Allow more defense, and this era would be the best.

Don't know about that. I mean, how different was the league in 2005 as opposed to 2000? Both leagues averaged 97 PPG. Both leagues averaged 45% FGs. The same "boring" Spurs won the title in 2005 as they did in say 2002, and they faced the same "boring" Pistons who won the title the previous year. Go figure.

I agree about 1999, but it's not a fair assessment since that was the lockout season where the league only played 50 games, the fewest in its history, with no practice or camp to prepare. And it also followed the retirement of MJ which had sucked a lot of energy out of the fan base.

But I think you're overlooking my point and focusing more on your bias. My point was that that era (2000-10) was the right mix of everything. You had dynamic players, great defenses, skill, shooting, high flying dunks, offensive and defensive schemes, rivalries, etc, as a whole. What we've seen from pretty much 2016 to now is a downward spiral of three point spamming where pretty much every team plays the same or similar.

This really wasn't the case back then. The way Milwaukee with their big 3 played was a lot different to the way the Knicks played, or the way the Mavs played was very different to the Lakers.

I mean, who are your great rivalries now? Is that even a thing? (Genuine question)

[RRR3]

97 PPG is historically low scoring for NBA standards. Not a good watch, no one wants to see that many bricks. The 80s teams were scoring like 110 PPG.

[HoopsNY]

97 PPG is historically low scoring for NBA standards. Not a good watch, no one wants to see that many bricks. The 80s teams were scoring like 110 PPG.

Kinda moving the goal post here, no? Teams didn't score 98 PPG or higher again until 2007. And it's really splitting hairs at that point. Heck, in 2012 they scored 96. Okay, lockout season. But the next season they scored a whole 98?

That doesn't seem to stack up much against 110 PPG, from the 1980s or even now. But I digress. The main point was, the mix. And I do agree with some that the early 2010s was a decent mix as well, though by then the elite bigs seemed to be limited.

[SouBeachTalents]

The way Milwaukee with their big 3 played was a lot different to the way the Knicks played, or the way the Mavs played was very different to the Lakers.

I mean, who are your great rivalries now? Is that even a thing? (Genuine question)
That's what I miss most about previous eras. You had teams like the Nash Suns & 2000's Pistons playing at the same time who could not be any more different, watching a Suns game and watching a Pistons game was a completely different experience. Now? Every single game feels exactly the same, there is zero variety between the teams.

And with players switching teams constantly and ducking each other in the regular season, there are no good rivalries anymore. The last great one was probably Cavs/Warriors.

[Nowoco]

It's amusing to me seeing people big up or put down certain eras because of average point scoring. If there was any truth to high scoring equaling great games then the ASG would be box office instead of ignored and hated by everyone.

Some of the classic 90s/early 00s playoffs games were low scoring but edge of the seat entertaining. Both the 97 and 98 finals didnt have a 100+ score, for example. Neither team in the famous Lakers-Blazers game 7 cracked 90.

I'll be honest, I never truly appreciated how good great defense is to watch until it disappeared. I watch a lot of classic games from that period in full and not at any point am I not thoroughly enjoying what I'm seeing.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's amusing to me seeing people big up or put down certain eras because of average point scoring. If there was any truth to high scoring equaling great games then the ASG would be box office instead of ignored and hated by everyone.

Some of the classic 90s/early 00s playoffs games were low scoring but edge of the seat entertaining. Both the 97 and 98 finals didnt have a 100+ score, for example. Neither team in the famous Lakers-Blazers game 7 cracked 90.

I'll be honest, I never truly appreciated how good great defense is to watch until it disappeared. I watch a lot of classic games from that period in full and not at any point am I not thoroughly enjoying what I'm seeing.
Yep, look at all those Finals Game 7's; '05, '10, '13, '16, all bare knuckle fights that were extremely tense.

[HoopsNY]

It's amusing to me seeing people big up or put down certain eras because of average point scoring. If there was any truth to high scoring equaling great games then the ASG would be box office instead of ignored and hated by everyone.

Some of the classic 90s/early 00s playoffs games were low scoring but edge of the seat entertaining. Both the 97 and 98 finals didnt have a 100+ score, for example. Neither team in the famous Lakers-Blazers game 7 cracked 90.

I'll be honest, I never truly appreciated how good great defense is to watch until it disappeared. I watch a lot of classic games from that period in full and not at any point am I not thoroughly enjoying what I'm seeing.

No one in that time really complained, at least I don't recall. And I saw the early 90s when the league PPG was consistently around 105 PPG. That's a big difference from say, 93 PPG in 2004. Yet people still enjoyed it because again, you had a balance.

5 teams that year didn't even crack 90 PPG. Big deal. We still got to see teams like Sacramento and Dallas run the floor. We still saw high flying dunks from T-Mac and Vince. We still saw shooters like Ray or Reggie. We saw the crossovers of Francis and B.D.

It's also the idea that system ball just makes you appreciate the game more. I like coaches working on matchups and both offensive and defensive schemes. I liked watching the Celtics play grinding defense with their 50 guys or whatever that could stop the fast break or lockdown offensive players, but at the same time run the offense through Pierce or watching Rondo run the fast break.

The early 2010s had a bit of it as well. Lob city, the SAS, OKC, LAL, Memphis, MIA, and then of course GSW eventually..then 2015-2016 shifted the game quite a bit and it was only downhill since then.

[tpols]

The different styles and more balanced offense vs defense rules made it better back then. When you make offense too easy it dilutes and cheapens the buckets. Highlights back then were way better too. Today it's just a ****ing 3pt contest... the game lacks creativity big time.

[Phoenix]

No one in that time really complained, at least I don't recall. And I saw the early 90s when the league PPG was consistently around 105 PPG. That's a big difference from say, 93 PPG in 2004. Yet people still enjoyed it because again, you had a balance.

5 teams that year didn't even crack 90 PPG. Big deal. We still got to see teams like Sacramento and Dallas run the floor. We still saw high flying dunks from T-Mac and Vince. We still saw shooters like Ray or Reggie. We saw the crossovers of Francis and B.D.

It's also the idea that system ball just makes you appreciate the game more. I like coaches working on matchups and both offensive and defensive schemes. I liked watching the Celtics play grinding defense with their 50 guys or whatever that could stop the fast break or lockdown offensive players, but at the same time run the offense through Pierce or watching Rondo run the fast break.

The early 2010s had a bit of it as well. Lob city, the SAS, OKC, LAL, Memphis, MIA, and then of course GSW eventually..then 2015-2016 shifted the game quite a bit and it was only downhill since then.

In my experience playing back then in gyms/parks etc nobody was complaining about lower scores in the early 2000s. The topics of conversation were more along the lines of 'who's better, Tmac or Kobe, Kobe or Vince'. You had Shaq and Kobe at the top of the league along with the Lakers in general, which naturally garnered interest arguing against Lakers fans. You had Jordan's final 2 years and the talk that garnered. In my circles people weren't complaining about 90-85 final scores. Even when we got to the mid 2000s and you had the run and gun Suns led by MVP Nash post rule changes, a matchup between them and like the Spurs was a clash of styles. Now it's mostly who makes more 3's tonight.

[bison]

Basketball was better back when you were growing up for the same reason music, movies and video games were better back when you were growing up: you associate these things with the best years of your life. There's no way to objectively measure these things because its all based on nostalgia. You can't compare basketball eras because the only metric we have for these comparisons is experiential.

[tpols]

Basketball was better back when you were growing up for the same reason music, movies and video games were better back when you were growing up: you associate these things with the best years of your life. There's no way to objectively measure these things because its all based on nostalgia. You can't compare basketball eras because the only metric we have for these comparisons is experiential.


Eh... there are some things better today objectively that even a nostalgic person wouldn't be able to ignore. Video games are better now than in 1998. I'm not sure basketball is. Outside of guys shooting 3s.

[FKAri]

I can tell you that no one watching ball during 99-04 was thinking that it was the good ol days. MJ had just retired. League was coming out of a lockout. There were mixed opinions on the And1 influence entering the league. People didn't like high school kids in the draft.

I don't know what was the good ol days. But I do know I started losing interest a few years ago. The drive and kick corner 3 + pick and roll over and over is tiresome. It's the right way to play but it's not a fun watch. The league is such an economic force now that tinkering with it scary for the league office unless it's driven by obvious loss of revenue(mid season tournament due to waning regular season ratings). If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it's making billions. Don't touch it. So long as its good enough, nothing will change.

[Phoenix]

Basketball was better back when you were growing up for the same reason music, movies and video games were better back when you were growing up: you associate these things with the best years of your life. There's no way to objectively measure these things because its all based on nostalgia. You can't compare basketball eras because the only metric we have for these comparisons is experiential.

Not necessarily, it depends. There are some cartoons I grew up on in the 80s that I think are corny as fukk now, and those were definitely the best, most carefree time of my life.

Basketball in 2024, the players are 'more skilled'( they have more lax defensive and ballhandling/carrying rules to facilitate those enhancements, but I digress) but the game has regressed into a 3point shooting contest. Mid-range and post play is few and far between now. The players may be more 'athletic' overall today but outside of maybe Ja few are dunking like Vince or even Kobe 20 years ago, let alone guys like J-rich and Tmac. I'm actually,now that I have 35+ years of basketball observation behind me, inclined to lean towards the 2000s as the sweet spot where post play, mid-range and the 3pointer was part of the game but obviously nowhere near today. You can also go back to that period and the players still 'look' modern. You could drop 2003 Tmac or 2001 Vince( and obviously Kobe) into today's game with pretty much no changes except they'd double up their 3point attempts. Of course the 2000s can be split between two periods, early 2000s defense and post 2004 after the perimeter rule changes, but I do think that decade overall had the best balance of styles, both individually and team-wise. And I have no 'youthful nostalgia' eyes for that decade clouding my judgement.

[FKAri]

Not necessarily, it depends. There are some cartoons I grew up on in the 80s that I think are corny as fukk now, and those were definitely the best, most carefree time of my life.

Basketball in 2024, the players are 'more skilled'( they have more lax defensive and ballhandling/carrying rules to facilitate those enhancements, but I digress) but the game has regressed into a 3point shooting contest. Mid-range and post play is few and far between now. The players may be more 'athletic' overall today but outside of maybe Ja few are dunking like Vince or even Kobe 20 years ago, let alone guys like J-rich and Tmac. I'm actually,now that I have 35+ years of basketball observation behind me, inclined to lean towards the 2000s as the sweet spot where post play, mid-range and the 3pointer was part of the game but obviously nowhere near today. You can also go back to that period and the players still 'look' modern. You could drop 2003 Tmac or 2001 Vince( and obviously Kobe) into today's game with pretty much no changes except they'd double up their 3point attempts. Of course the 2000s can be split between two periods, early 2000s defense and post 2004 after the perimeter rule changes, but I do think that decade overall had the best balance of styles, both individually and team-wise. And I have no 'youthful nostalgia' eyes for that decade clouding my judgement.

Players/teams are better than ever at exploiting what you can and can't do on the court. It's up to the league to make adjustments to keep the final product entertaining. Like I said, if it's not hurting the pocketbook they won't touch it.

[Phoenix]

Players/teams are better than ever at exploiting what you can and can't do on the court. It's up to the league to make adjustments to keep the final product entertaining. Like I said, if it's not hurting the pocketbook they won't touch it.

They clearly see an issue but they're targeting the wrong things. Case in point, the bullshit they're doing with the all-star game. There's nothing to say the players will give any more fukks under the new format than they've displayed in the last few games. Beyond the 3point spamming, the players mindset towards competition, towards honoring the legacy of the league has fallen off a cliff. I don't know how you fix that....

[90sgoat]

No one in that time really complained, at least I don't recall. And I saw the early 90s when the league PPG was consistently around 105 PPG. That's a big difference from say, 93 PPG in 2004. Yet people still enjoyed it because again, you had a balance.

5 teams that year didn't even crack 90 PPG. Big deal. We still got to see teams like Sacramento and Dallas run the floor. We still saw high flying dunks from T-Mac and Vince. We still saw shooters like Ray or Reggie. We saw the crossovers of Francis and B.D.

It's also the idea that system ball just makes you appreciate the game more. I like coaches working on matchups and both offensive and defensive schemes. I liked watching the Celtics play grinding defense with their 50 guys or whatever that could stop the fast break or lockdown offensive players, but at the same time run the offense through Pierce or watching Rondo run the fast break.

The early 2010s had a bit of it as well. Lob city, the SAS, OKC, LAL, Memphis, MIA, and then of course GSW eventually..then 2015-2016 shifted the game quite a bit and it was only downhill since then.

Yeah, I think a big reason why people liked shooters such as Reggie, Ray, Redd and all those back then, was because it was very difficult to get good shots and so you knew these guys were top notch.

Also why people liked small guards like AI, Baron Davis, etc, despite not being efficient, because you knew it was a battle to be undersized in a game of giants in the paint.

This is what the game is missing today, you don't see that struggle and specialization to overcome it.

[bison]

Eh... there are some things better today objectively that even a nostalgic person wouldn't be able to ignore. Video games are better now than in 1998. I'm not sure basketball is. Outside of guys shooting 3s.

Lets say video games are better now than 1998. Kind of an obvious statement considering how much better the technology is. But do I *enjoy* playing today's video games over how much I enjoyed playing N64 back in 1998? I don't think so. And so this is the lens by which we look back at old basketball eras. It's as much about the game changing as much as we have personally changed.