Rings don't matter as much nowadays to judge an NBA legend's legacy

[Drygon]

Back in the days, I remember when people used to believe that winning a Championship was a gigantic deal-breaker to judge the legacy of a legendary NBA player.

However, rings are nowhere near as much of a deal nowadays. People are more aware that a lot of circumstances are involved with luck or other factors beyond a star player's control.

Instead, analytics + individual talent matters much more to judge someone's NBA legacy rather than a mere piece of metal.

Luka Doncic is widely regarded as the better player with a bigger resume than e.g. Jason Tatum who won a Championship on a stacked Celtic Roster. Nobody would put Kevin Durant over Hakeem Olajuwon in the all-time ranking for the exact same reasons.

[Neal Romer]

Oh people still use it plenty. I would say predominantly. They just simply dont care that they arent making any sense.

[Carbine]

Back in the days, I remember when people used to believe that winning a Championship was a gigantic deal-breaker to judge the legacy of a legendary NBA player.

However, rings are nowhere near as much of a deal nowadays. People are more aware that a lot of circumstances are involved with luck or other factors beyond a star player's control.

Instead, analytics + individual talent matters much more to judge someone's NBA legacy rather than a mere piece of metal.

Luka Doncic is widely regarded as the better player with a bigger resume than e.g. Jason Tatum who won a Championship on a stacked Celtic Roster. Nobody would put Kevin Durant over Hakeem Olajuwon in the all-time ranking for the exact same reasons.

Luka is viewed as better because the difference in talent. If they were around equals, it would be the deciding factor all time.

Luka is going to likely be an multiple MVP winner, ridiculous amount of first team all NBA's, generally regarded as upping his play in the playoffs this far in his career.

Durant vs Hakeem.... They both have two titles. Not sure what your point is there.

[Micku]

It matters less when you consider guys like Tatum winning when we all know he wasn't the best player. He didn't even perform great. There is a difference in talent.

Like the Pistons won in 04. Nobody was saying Sheed, Billups or Ben Wallace were better than KG.

The context matters, but it's also subjective. Winning is still the most important, it's just there are other factors.

[Real Men Wear Green]

This thread is funny too me. Tatum is a legend now? Ok then...Why, if the championship doesn't matter?

He has a small chance that some season Jokic and Giannis fall off our have injury issues, he plays one of his best seasons, and he maybe manages to get an mvp award by the skin of his teeth. But it's more likely he doesn't get one. People will care a little about how many times he makes allstar but it doesn't separate him from a lot of guys. The first team AllNBA is higher level but even that is not getting paid a lot of attention (he's made it three straight years and this year will make 4). No, the first thing mentioned on Tatum's resume when his career is over will be his ring count, whatever that ends up being.

Curious as to what Doncic had accomplished that makes him a greater legend than JT. Rings don't matter... mvp awards probably wouldn't matter either because he doesn't have one... so what does?

[highwhey]

This thread is funny too me. Tatum is a legend now? Ok then...Why, if the championship doesn't matter?

He has a small chance that some season Jokic and Giannis fall off our have injury issues, he plays one of his best seasons, and he maybe manages to get an mvp award by the skin of his teeth. But it's more likely he doesn't get one. People will care a little about how many times he makes allstar but it doesn't separate him from a lot of guys. The first team AllNBA is higher level but even that is not getting paid a lot of attention (he's made it three straight years and this year will make 4). No, the first thing mentioned on Tatum's resume when his career is over will be his ring count, whatever that ends up being.

Curious as to what Doncic had accomplished that makes him a greater legend than JT. Rings don't matter... mvp awards probably wouldn't matter either because he doesn't have one... so what does?

JT is rich man's kelly oubre

[John8204]

We judge players based on statistics, success and legacy. Where you rank based on your contemporaries and other guys at your position holds much more weight than if you were on a championship team. Now we like to pick on Tatum as he's made so many runs and yet has failed to win multiples while Luka is on pace to be the next all-time points player.

[Real Men Wear Green]

We judge players based on statistics, success and legacy. Where you rank based on your contemporaries and other guys at your position holds much more weight than if you were on a championship team. Now we like to pick on Tatum as he's made so many runs and yet has failed to win multiples while Luka is on pace to be the next all-time points player.

So Tatum is a playoff failure and Doncic is not? Fascinating.

[John8204]

So Tatum is a playoff failure and Doncic is not? Fascinating.

I wouldn't call either man a playoff failure to make 5 title runs in 7 seasons is very impressive and having 2 title runs in 6 seasons is also good. You have other factors to look at and consider but 30PPG players are valued differently. Stats also matter and when the PPG looks like this...

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Luka Dončić 28.69

Luka could hit #1 this or next season and that is more important than a title

[Real Men Wear Green]

I wouldn't call either man a playoff failure to make 5 title runs in 7 seasons is very impressive and having 2 title runs in 6 seasons is also good. You have other factors to look at and consider but 30PPG players are valued differently. Stats also matter and when the PPG looks like this...

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Luka Dončić 28.69

Luka could hit #1 this or next season and that is more important than a title

I don't know what the point to your 5 title runs in 7 years/2 in 6 comment is when it applies to neither. Doncic would have to average 40 or something to make it into the 30 ppg territory this season. As he currently averages slightly under 29 I'm just going to assume that's not happening. On the flip side the playoff failure has the most playoff points before the age of 27 and is positioned for deep playoff runs in his foreseeable future. That could actually lead to him becoming the all-time career postseason scoring leader (while continuing to fail, of course). I will admit that making such speculation for someone that's only 26 or 27 is extremely premature but I'm not trying to declare a 25 year old player with no MVPs or championships a "legend."

[John8204]

I don't know what the point to your 5 title runs in 7 years/2 in 6 comment is when it applies to neither. Doncic would have to average 40 or something to make it into the 30 ppg territory this season. As he currently averages slightly under 29 I'm just going to assume that's not happening. On the flip side the playoff failure has the most playoff points before the age of 27 and is positioned for deep playoff runs in his foreseeable future. That could actually lead to him becoming the all-time career postseason scoring leader (while continuing to fail, of course). I will admit that making such speculation for someone that's only 26 or 27 is extremely premature but I'm not trying to declare a 25 year old player with no MVPs or championships a "legend."

Oh well if you don't consider making a run to the conference or NBA finals as important...that likely says more about you than anything else. Treating players that make runs every year as failures is just toxic, sports is a game of circumstance not science variables change every season.

As for Luka not topping Jordan he doesn't need to average 40PPG if he averages 34PPG which as we know Luka gets better as the season goes on...that should put him ahead of Jordan/Wilt. I'm sure he's not going to stay ahead of either man but he can still do it. Something nobody else can do.

I think most fans have Luka in the top 75 right now unless you have a bias against him

[Real Men Wear Green]

Oh well if you don't consider making a run to the conference or NBA finals as important...that likely says more about you than anything else. Treating players that make runs every year as failures is just toxic, sports is a game of circumstance not science variables change every season.have you been reading this topic? If you are going to respect conference finals runs Tatum makes one almost every year. His playoff resume easily eclipses Doncic yet you think Doncic somehow deserves legend status.


As for Luka not topping Jordan he doesn't need to average 40PPG if he averages 34PPG which as we know Luka gets better as the season goes on...that should put him ahead of Jordan/Wilt. I'm sure he's not going to stay ahead of either man but he can still do it. Something nobody else can do.There are likely over 10 players in the league today that could average over 30. Jordan's scoring average is part of his legend but the real basis of his GOAT argument is mvp awards and championships. Not his ppg.

[John8204]

have you been reading this topic? If you are going to respect conference finals runs Tatum makes one almost every year. His playoff resume easily eclipses Doncic yet you think Doncic somehow deserves legend status.


I wouldn't call either man a playoff failure to make 5 title runs in 7 seasons is very impressive and having 2 title runs in 6 seasons is also good.


There are likely over 10 players in the league today that could average over 30. Jordan's scoring average is part of his legend but the real basis of his GOAT argument is mvp awards and championships. Not his ppg.

Well they're 13 active players right now between Luka and Tatum.

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Luka Dončić 28.69
4. Joel Embiid 27.77
5. Elgin Baylor* 27.36
6. Kevin Durant 27.24
7. LeBron James 27.06
8. Jerry West* 27.03
9. Allen Iverson* 26.66
10. Bob Pettit* 26.36
11. Oscar Robertson* 25.68
12. Trae Young 25.26
13. Damian Lillard 25.14
14. George Gervin* 25.09
15. Karl Malone* 25.02
16. Kobe Bryant* 24.99
17. Dominique Wilkins* 24.83
18. Rick Barry* 24.78
19. Donovan Mitchell 24.75
20. Stephen Curry 24.72
Rank Player PPG
21. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 24.61
22. Devin Booker 24.34
23. Larry Bird* 24.29
24. Adrian Dantley* 24.27
25. Pete Maravich* 24.24
26. Anthony Davis 24.19
27. Julius Erving* 24.16
28. James Harden 24.10
29. Shaquille O'Neal* 23.69
30. Giannis Antetokounmpo 23.62
31. Kyrie Irving 23.60
32. Jayson Tatum 23.33

What we'll see is that as time goes by many will drop down in their decline. Wilt was after all averaging 40-50pts before ring chasing with the Lakers. Luka taking the PPG crown even if it's for a short period of time makes him a legend. We're not talking about Unseld or Rose or Walton where it's hype them up as they enter the league...we have a 6 season sample for him...if he died tomorrow he'd be a legend.

As for anyone averaging 30PPG...I believe we have more MVP's than guys that have 30PPG seasons. This isn't something that's as common as you think it is.

[Naero]

Rings were never the be-all, end-all criterion. They might be the most legacy-enhancing accolade—especially if it goes alongside a Finals MVP—but it takes more than one to make up the difference in peak impact.

Have you ever seen anyone seriously argue, say, Robert Horry over any of the many fewer-ringed legends? No? It's because even what you'd call ring-counters implicitly acknowledge that peak play is the most important.

In Tatum's case, Doncic is considered to be in another tier peak-wise. The fact that the Celtics star failed to win Finals MVP reinforces that to a lot of people.

The KD-Hakeem comparison is another bad example. Although KD is tied with him in both types of MVPs, The Dream has won most other tiebreakers: more impressive title runs, a much greater defensive legacy, and so on.

That's all to say that the rest of a player's legacy—namely their peak play and accolades—are comparable, rings are still often used as the deciding factor. Not that it's logical, but it has been the case for some decades now.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well they're 13 active players right now between Luka and Tatum.Almost no one scores as many points as they could. But FYI, Tatum has hit a 30 ppg season. He is not a worse player in any way at 26 than he was at 24. And this season there is less than a point difference in scoring average between Tatum and Doncic. If you want to make a big deal out of Tatum not scoring much as a 19 year-old rookie then you should also make a big deal out of him lasting until Game 7 of the conference finals as a rookie against prime LeBron James.


What we'll see is that as time goes by many will drop down in their decline. Wilt was after all averaging 40-50pts before ring chasing with the Lakers. Luka taking the PPG crown even if it's for a short period of time makes him a legend. We're not talking about Unseld or Rose or Walton where it's hype them up as they enter the league...we have a 6 season sample for him...if he died tomorrow he'd be a legend.He's not going to take the ppg crown. He's currently averaging 28.9 points. If Dallas is going to compete for a championship (which I respect Doncic enough to believe is his top goal) Doncic is going to need more help from his teammates. He's not winning anything if he's trying for 40 every night, turning the guys around him into statues and resting instead of playing defense.


As for anyone averaging 30PPG...I believe we have more MVP's than guys that have 30PPG seasons. This isn't something that's as common as you think it is.I said "could." Anthony Edwards, Kevin Durant, JT, and a few others could all definitely average 30. There are a few guys that I'm sure could do it even if they haven't yet.

[Real Men Wear Green]

In Tatum's case, Doncic is considered to be in another tier peak-wise. The fact that the Celtics star failed to win Finals MVP reinforces that to a lot of people.Doncic was in that series as well, and he didn't win Finals MVP either. The Celtics' offense was built around attacking Doncic's defense as much as possible. Crushing Doncic on both ends is the reason why JB won the Finals MVP award. These things don't matter?