Lebron from 2016-2018

[Lebron23]

Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals

[Full Court]

Most choke jobs of all time, BY FAR.


https://images2.imgbox.com/46/54/Pqbx6ZNa_o.png


2007 game 1 against Detroit. 10 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 2 against Detroit. 19 points on 37% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against the Spurs. 14 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

2008 game 1 against Boston. 12 points and 10 turnovers on 11% shooting. 0/6 from three. LOSS.

Game 2 against Boston. 21 points on 25% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Boston. 21 points on 31% shooting.

Game 4 against Boston. 21 points on 35% shooting.

2009 game 3 against Orlando. He scored 41 points, but on absolutely horrendous efficiency. 39% shooting and 1/8 from three. LOSS. Someone should have made him stop shooting.

2010 game 5 against Boston. 15 points on 21% shooting!!! LOSS. The series was tied 2-2 until that game. That Lebron choke put the Cavs down 3-2, and they went on to lose the series.

2011 game 1 against Philadelphia. 21 points on 29% shooting.

Game 5 against Philadelphia. 16 points on 39% shooting.

Game 3 against Boston. 15 points on 38% shooting. LOSS.

Game 1 against Chicago. 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Finals against Dallas. Most epic choke job of all time. Game 3, 17 points.

Game 4, 8 points on 27% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5, 17 points. LOSS.

Game 6, 21 points and 6 turnovers. LOSS.

2013 game 2 against San Antonio. 17 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against San Antonio, 15 points on 33% shooting. LOSS.

Game 5 against San Antonio, 25 points on 36% shooting. LOSS.

2014 game 5 against Indiana. 7 points on 20% shooting. Whooaaaaaaaa! LOSS.

2015 game 1 against Chicago. 19 points on 41% shooting. LOSS.

Game 6 against Chicago. 15 points on 30% shooting.

Game 4 against Golden State. 20 points on 32% shooting.

2016 game 3 against Detroit. 20 points on 33% shooting.

Game 2 against Golden State. 19 points on 42% shooting. LOSS.

2017 game 3 against Boston. 11 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2018 game 1 against Indiana. 24 points on 41% shooting. 0% from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Boston. 15 points on 31% shooting. LOSS.

2020 game 2 against Portland. 10 points on 36% shooting.

Game 1 against Houston. 20 points. LOSS.

Game 4 against Houston. 16 points on 41% shooting.

Game 1 against Denver. 15 points.

2021 game 1 against Phoenix. 18 points on 46% shooting. LOSS.

Game 3 against Phoenix. 21 points and 7 turnovers on 47% shooting.

Game 6 against Phoenix. 29 points on 11/26 shooting. ELIMINATION.

2023 game 5 against Memphis. 15 points on 29% shooting. 1-9 from three. LOSS.

Game 1 against Golden State. 22 points on 38% shooting. 1-8 from three.

Game 2 against Denver. 22 points. 0-6 from three. LOSS.

Game 4 against Denver. Wasted multiple possessions in 4th quarter, missed key shots, and blew the game-tying shot in the last possession. SWEPT.

2024 game 1 against Denver. 0 points in the fourth quarter of a close game. Actually, he had two points, but that was from an uncontested layup in the final minute of the game after Denver had already closed the game out. LOSS

Game 2 against Denver. The game is tied and the Lakers have the final possession. Instead of running the clock down, Lebron clanks a low-IQ three point shot, leaving Denver with plenty of time for a final possession. Murray, who is way more clutch than Lebron, makes the buzzer beater. LOSS.

[Walk on Water]

Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals


Really? His points were not higher and Jordan played defense. LeBron lost. He had Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and many good role players during that time. Why couldn’t he get it done with all that help? How much help does he need? I thought he made players around him better.

[1987_Lakers]

2018 LeBron shits on any version of MJ from 96-98.

[Full Court]

2018 LeBron shits on any version of MJ from 96-98.

How many FMVPs did Jordan get from 96-98? How many did Lebron get from 16-18?


Nice try. :lol


Most. Choke. Jobs. Of. All. Time.

[1987_Lakers]

How many FMVPs did Jordan get from 96-98? How many did Lebron get from 16-18?


Nice try. :lol


Most. Choke. Jobs. Of. All. Time.

MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.

And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.

[tpols]

MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.

And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.


We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.

[SouBeachTalents]

We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.
You've said the current Lakers are equal to the KD Warriors and that Jason Kidd was better than LeBron, so you really shouldn't be talking about invalidated opinions :lol

[tpols]

It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.

The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.

Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.

Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?

[ArbitraryWater]

It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.

The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.

Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.

Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?

Are you accounting for game 1 being tilted though? He clearly won that game.

He made the game sealing stop right here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USDIMz7l2AI&ab_channel=ESPN



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=behWkJPCkLI

[ArbitraryWater]

It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.

The Cavs shooters in the East playoffs were on fire from deep in some of those runs. And still had an All Star talent in Kevin Love and an MVP talent in Lebron. They were not a weak offensive cast at all.

Lebron was amazing in the 2018 playoffs but the warriors swept him and won by the largest margin of victory in NBA Finals history.

Think about that. How could MJ do worse than being swept and blown out in record fashion?


But anyway, probaby every singe payer woud have ost R1 to the Pacers, MJ incuded.

What Bron did with his useess team there was nothing short of incredibe.

No love against the Cetics in games 6-7 either, won it without anyone.

[Hey Yo]

Cavs were down 3-2 in the ECF. Love missed games 6 and 7 minus 5mins in gm6.

edit....didn't see Arby's post above

[SouBeachTalents]

Even if it's statistically correct that 2018 had the largest MOV, half of the games in that series came down to the final minute, that alone makes it more competitive than other Finals like 2004 & 2014 which even if they weren't sweeps, imo were more one sided series. I felt like the Cavs put up a better fight than the Lakers or Heat did in those series.

[tpols]

But anyway, probaby every singe payer woud have ost R1 to the Pacers, MJ incuded.

What Bron did with his useess team there was nothing short of incredibe.

No love against the Cetics in games 6-7 either, won it without anyone.


Dude... I don't think you understand who prime Michael Jordan was. It's not just nostalgia... he was an absolute monster. He could single handedly beat a teenage rookie Tatum and Jaylen Brown. No exaggeration. Prime veteran MJ would not lose to that.

Game 6 and 7 wouldn't have even existed in the 2018 ECFs because Jordan would've pounced them and ended that series early.

I really wish there was a way we could run a simulation and bet on that because I can guarantee you wouldn't throw your money up.

[1987_Lakers]

It's just delusional to say prime MJ would lose to the derozan Raptors or oladipo Pacers. Or honestly the rookie Tatum Celtics too.

You can make an argument for a young '88-'93 version of MJ, even though I personally feel he would fall short because LeBron is the greatest floor-raiser ever. But no way '96-'98 MJ could do it with that '18 Cavs cast. LeBron was the better player when both players were in their 30's.

[HoopsNY]

MJ with LeBron's cast in 2018 would have been knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st/2nd round.

And we all know MJ is not beating the 2017 Warriors in a 7 game series, not even the '96 Bulls.

Some pretty wild assertions here. Just looking at the 1st round matchups MJ faced:

'96 vs. MIA: 30/4/3/2 on 61% TS%
'97 vs. WAS: 37/6/5/1 on 62% TS%
'98 vs. NJN: 36/5/3/1 on 62% TS%

Kinda strange to think MJ wouldn't at least lead the 2018 Cavs past the 1st round when he was putting up crazy stats in a far slower era.

As for the second round, then why wouldn't he? Love put up 21/12/2/1/1 on 59% TS%. Who's stopping MJ from putting up 35 a night? The Cavs shooters shot 43-94 from 3 (46%) for the series, and they swept Toronto. That wasn't on the back of LeBron alone.

[1987_Lakers]

Some pretty wild assertions here. Just looking at the 1st round matchups MJ faced:

'96 vs. MIA: 30/4/3/2 on 61% TS%
'97 vs. WAS: 37/6/5/1 on 62% TS%
'98 vs. NJN: 36/5/3/1 on 62% TS%

That's cute. LeBron put up 34/10/8 on 66 TS% in the first round that year and barely escaped.

'96-'98 MJ would get stomped.

[tpols]

You can make an argument for a young '88-'93 version of MJ, even though I personally feel he would fall short because LeBron is the greatest floor-raiser ever. But no way '96-'98 MJ could do it with that '18 Cavs cast. LeBron was the better player when both players were in their 30's.

You're acting like the 2018 Cavaliers were trash when they had an elite top 5 ranked offense on the year back then.

And Lebron did have an All Star beside him in Kevin Love and one of the statistically best 3pt shooting casts in the NBA. That isn't bad help.

And then given the competition? Oladipo, Derozan, and teenage Tatum? It just makes your argument for them help being trash even weaker. Trying to make that out to be some heroic gauntlet.:lol What a joke.

MJ would run through that although he would almost certainly lose to Golden State. Probably in 5. Win one home game and lose on the road in the bay.

[1987_Lakers]

You're acting like the 2018 Cavaliers were trash when they an elite top 5 ranked offense on the year back then. And Lebron did have an All Star beside him in Kevin Love and one of the statistically best 3pt shooting casts in the NBA. That isn't bad help.


Revisionist history at its finest. Nobody was propping up LeBron's cast that year.

Only reason why they were top 5 in offense is because of LeBron, the greatest floor raiser ever. How many trades did they make that year because of their struggles? Love was trash for most of the playoffs, LeBron without Love had to come back from being down 3-2 vs Boston in the ECF, you think '96-'98 MJ is doing that with the same circumstances? LOL

[tpols]

How can it be revisionist history when it was a fact?

:roll:

The 2018 Cavaliers statistically had the 5th best offense, Kevin Love was voted to the All Star team, and they were a very elite 3pt shooting squad 3PA, 3PM, and 3pt%.

What am I revising? That's literally... what happened back then.

[HoopsNY]

That's cute. LeBron put up 34/10/8 on 66 TS% in the first round that year and barely escaped.

'96-'98 MJ would get stomped.

Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.

I addressed your ridiculous assertion that he'd somehow get knocked out of the 1st round, or better yet, wouldn't beat a Toronto team (that CLE swept) with a sidekick producing 21/12 on 59% TS% or shooters shooting 46% from the distance.

I get you hate MJ and all, but at least be fair.

[1987_Lakers]

How can it be revisionist history when it was a fact?

:roll:

The 2018 Cavaliers statistically had the 5th best offense, Kevin Love was voted to the All Star team, and they were a very elite 3pt shooting squad.

What am I revising? That's literally... what happened back then.

You propping up the 2018 Cavs like LeBron had a decent cast around him.

In the playoffs

Love: 51 TS%
Jr Smith: 49 TS%
Jeff Green: 52 TS%

You say they were a solid 3 point shooting team, but in the playoffs they shot 33%.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.

MJ's numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.

[tpols]

I mean... the 2018 Cavs made the 3rd most 3s in the league that year out of 30 teams. We're trying to give you facts bro. This is all verifiable and I'm surprised you didn't know it. They were dead last in defensive rank. Their offense was their everything.

[tpols]

Yea, and it's very likely that MJ's numbers would be similar or better in this mickey mouse era. Furthermore, that wasn't the argument that I was addressing.

I addressed your ridiculous assertion that he'd somehow get knocked out of the 1st round, or better yet, wouldn't beat a Toronto team (that CLE swept) with a sidekick producing 21/12 on 59% TS% or shooters shooting 46% from the distance.

I get you hate MJ and all, but at least be fair.

That's what I'm saying. If you want to make the debate you have to do it without saying some totally off the rails stuff first.

That version of Lebron was probably almost equal to prime MJ in terms of pure talent and ability imo.

So it's funny to see Lebron stans act like somebody that was as good as him would have no chance of running the Oladipo / Derozan / Tatum gauntlet.

I guess it's just cognitive dissonance.

[Full Court]

We really can't take your post seriously when you say prime MJ would lose to the oladipo Pacers. It invalidates the entire opinion.

I haven't been able to take his posts seriously since he said Tom Brady was the biggest choker in NBA history. :roll:



MJ's numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.


...because MJ racked up sooooooo many of his points by shooting threes.


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZ sAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a0c78ff1bfd7a0e6f594c272df2f27205d1a777b6eaca7 d8a5f52345d65eae70&ipo=images

[HoopsNY]

MJ numbers would be worse considering the NBA didn't have a short 3 point line in 2018 like they did in '96 and '97.

That's assuming his numbers fall off the roof. He shot 42.7% from 3 in 1996 and 37.4% in 1997. Given he shot 35.2% in 1993 (his last season prior to the change), what's he shooting in an era where volume likely increases?

LeBron shot 36.7% in the RS of 2018, and in those first two rounds of the playoffs he shot 28.8% from 3. I fail to see your point here.

LeBron put up 34/9/9 with a 62.5% TS% in those 11 games. If you don't think MJ at least matches that then idk what to tell you. Yea, he might not put up exactly 9 rebs and 9 assists, but a stat line of 36/8/6 on similar TS% is very possible, even likely. And what's even more likely is CLE winning those two rounds.

[1987_Lakers]

I mean... the 2018 Cavs made the 3rd most 3s in the league that year out of 30 teams. We're trying to give you facts bro. This is all verifiable and I'm surprised you didn't know it. They were dead last in defensive rank. Their offense was their everything.

I just gave you facts on what they did in the playoffs, which is what we are discussing.

[1987_Lakers]

LeBron put up 34/9/9 with a 62.5% TS% in those 11 games. If you don't think MJ at least matches that then idk what to tell you. Yea, he might not put up exactly 9 rebs and 9 assists, but a stat line of 36/8/6 on similar TS% is very possible, even likely. And what's even more likely is CLE winning those two rounds.
You think MJ is averaging 8 rpg on similar efficiency? Lmfao

[HoopsNY]

You think MJ is averaging 8 apg and 9 rpg? Lmfao.

Can you read? I said 36/8/6, meaning 8 rebounds and 6 assists. Why's that a shocker? MJ in '97 averaged 8 rebounds for the entirety of the playoffs.

Against CHH, he put up 10.2 rebs in the series. In the ECF, 8.0 rebs. In the finals? 32/7/6. Again, in the slow era. Furthermore, by 2018 we were already in the era of positionless basketball, but for some reason it's outlandish?

Anyway, the main point is the absurdity of claiming he couldn't beat IND and TOR. Quite odd.

[Carbine]

Trollpols strikes again.

How hard is it to just use logic?

Lebron being on the team is likely the sole reason that team is ranked #5 in team offense. Everything ran through him for the most part when he was on the floor. The '20 Mavs with Doncic was #1 in offense..... because of Doncic. Not because of Tim Hardaway Jr.

Pretty easy to understand if you aren't agenda driven.

[HoopsNY]

I haven't been able to take his posts seriously since he said Tom Brady was the biggest choker in NBA history. :roll:





...because MJ racked up sooooooo many of his points by shooting threes.


https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fmedia1.tenor.com%2Fm%2FH8akeoCjEZ sAAAAC%2Fincredulous-cormier.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=a0c78ff1bfd7a0e6f594c272df2f27205d1a777b6eaca7 d8a5f52345d65eae70&ipo=images

Good point

On the one hand, he's saying that MJ wouldn't drop buckets because of threes, meanwhile MJ didn't have a high volume of 3s to begin with, but still put up an insane stat line.

MJ put up 2.2 3PA in the first round between 1996-98. And still averaged nearly 35 a night.

[Hey Yo]

That's what I'm saying. If you want to make the debate you have to do it without saying some totally off the rails stuff first.

That version of Lebron was probably almost equal to prime MJ in terms of pure talent and ability imo.

So it's funny to see Lebron stans act like somebody that was as good as him would have no chance of running the Oladipo / Derozan / Tatum gauntlet.

I guess it's just cognitive dissonance.

Would have liked to seen how MJ would have played that 2018 postseason coming off 7 consecutive Finals appearances.

Saying that version of LeBron, in his 15th season, was close to prime MJ is saying a lot.

[tpols]

Lebron averaged 27/9/9 in 2018 when the cavaliers had a top 5 offense. He was great.

But... those aren't productions Michael Jordan is incapable of. A little less dimes but more points. And better defense. Cavs were 29th ranked defense that year, which shows Lebron gave them 0 defensive identity as a supposed GOAT defender.

We're not talking about replacing Lebron with Joe Johnson. This is Michael ****ing Jordan. :lol

[tpols]

Would have liked to seen how MJ would have played that 2018 postseason coming off 7 consecutive Finals appearances.

Saying that version of LeBron, in his 15th season, was close to prime MJ is saying a lot.

Yea I mean 2018 Lebron was the GOAT version for me. He had no fear that year, and was a straight juggernaut especially in the playoffs. That Game 1 was probably the best game of his career and a contender for best game ever even though he lost.

We can acknowledge that from our side without saying crazy things like prime MJ getting crushed by some of the mid teams that existed in the 2018 eastern conference playoff picture.

[Axe]

Trollpols strikes again.

How hard is it to just use logic?

Lebron being on the team is likely the sole reason that team is ranked #5 in team offense. Everything ran through him for the most part when he was on the floor. The '20 Mavs with Doncic was #1 in offense..... because of Doncic. Not because of Tim Hardaway Jr.

Pretty easy to understand if you aren't agenda driven.
Yeah. What's the cavs record without him during that season? I'm very sure it's a paltry one.

It's well known that kong excels a lot when he's on a team full of scrubs. It definitely helped him post an insane statline, something that wouldn't happen if he's playing for a stacked team bt.

[Hey Yo]

Yea I mean 2018 Lebron was the GOAT version for me. He had no fear that year, and was a straight juggernaut especially in the playoffs. That Game 1 was probably the best game of his career and a contender for best game ever even though he lost.

We can acknowledge that from our side without saying crazy things like prime MJ getting crushed by some of the mid teams that existed in the 2018 eastern conference playoff picture.

You consider 96-98 prime MJ? Cause 2018 James definitely wasn't prime.

[tpols]

You consider 96-98 prime MJ? Cause 2018 James definitely wasn't prime.

Lebrons prime was longer than Jordan's. You really don't think 2018 Lebron was still in his prime?

[Carbine]

I personally agree that 2018 is the best version of Lebron the basektball player. His shot had improved by then, he still was physically dominant over everyone and most importantly his mental game was at the top level for him. Post game was at a level not seen before for him as well.

2018 best version for playoff basketball

[Hey Yo]

Lebrons prime was longer than Jordan's. You really don't think 2018 Lebron was still in his prime?

No player in his 15 season, coming off 7 consecutive Finals (6 consecutive 1st option) appearances, is still considered to be in their prime.

96-98 is still considered MJ's prime to you?

[SouBeachTalents]

No player in his 15 season, coming off 7 consecutive Finals (6 consecutive 1st option) appearances, is still considered to be in their prime.

96-98 is still considered MJ's prime to you?
Jordan was still in his prime those years, he was still the BITW, but he was obviously no longer at his peak, which was roughly '88-'93.

Are you actually claiming a guy who averaged 34/9/9 through the Finals wasn't in his prime :lol You think those arbitrary numbers offset GOAT tier production.

[Gudo]

I love how OP puts out a dumb post and everyone just gets reeled into it.

[tpols]

No player in his 15 season, coming off 7 consecutive Finals (6 consecutive 1st option) appearances, is still considered to be in their prime.

96-98 is still considered MJ's prime to you?

Lebron came into the NBA out of high school as a teenager so it was really like his 12th season relative to MJ who went to UNC for college.

Lebron does have better longevity though. In Jordan's era all you could really get was the basic steroids that would get you bodybuilder jacked which isn't great for a speed sport like basketball, but nowadays the game is elevated.

Lebron has access to a superior medical team and regiment than Jordan had. He's basically like a basketball Frankenstein. Which I have no problem with.

If a team of doctors told me they could give me procedures to be super strong and fit for longer why wouldn't I do it? Lebrons not buying anabolics from gym bros off the street. He's got scientists behind him.

And witnessing peak performance is interesting so I'm not against it.

[Hey Yo]

Jordan was still in his prime those years, he was still the BITW, but he was obviously no longer at his peak, which was roughly '88-'93.

Are you actually claiming a guy who averaged 34/9/9 through the Finals wasn't in his prime :lol You think those arbitrary numbers offset GOAT tier production.
Still being BITW was due to era and the time off he took. Too me, there's very little difference between peak and prime. They're basically the same thing. When you're considered to be in your prime playing shape, you're considered being the best version of yourself.

What those numbers by LeBron does is screams he's the GOAT if he's going to be considered in his prime at the end of his 15th consecutive season and 7th consecutive Finals appearance.

[SouBeachTalents]

Still being BITW was due to era and the time off he took. Too me, there's very little difference between peak and prime. They're basically the same thing. When you're considered to be in your prime playing shape, you're considered being the best version of yourself.

What those numbers by LeBron does is screams he's the GOAT if he's going to be considered in his prime at the end of his 15th consecutive season and 7th consecutive Finals appearance.
Hard disagree here, there's a clear difference in performance for guys like Shaq & Hakeem during their peak years as opposed to other prime years. 2000 Shaq was simply a different animal than the 90's version.

And sure, LeBron being great for so long, in addition to all of his accomplishments, give him a valid argument for GOAT.

[3ba11]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-14-2024/9we3G6.gif




Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals


The 2016 Cavs were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players, while every other team only had 1, so the Cavs were given preseason favorite status and expected to win the title.

Unfortunately, the Cavs fell to underdog by the time the Finals arrived due to a vastly underachieving regular season of 57 wins, despite having a "dream team" roster that historically gets 65+ wins, if we use the 86' Celtics or 87' Lakers as comparisons.. Or if you think that's unfair, then the 07' Mavs or 09' Lakers, who clearly had much less talent... The professional statisticians (above) back this idea that the 15' and 16' Cavs were among the most stacked rosters of all-time.

In the Finals, Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit despite having 2 extra franchise players compared to Curry, the preseason favorite, and the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the current MVP.

Ultimately, this was a lucky title that the Cavs weren't supposed to win if Silver doesn't interfere and Bogut/Iggy don't get hurt late in the series.. The Warriors had JUST ENOUGH gas in the tank to win 73 and the title, so the Draymond suspension cut off a well-running engine - there's no way to get it back and running in time.






Put up better stats than 1996-1998 Michael Jordan in the NBA finals but he lost to a much better team than the teams Jordan face in the finals


Jordan was already unbeatable with just 1 star teammate, so he wouldn't lose to any team with 2 star teammates..

Let the historical record do the talking:

Jordan's only losses were with bad teams to great teams, while Lebron's losses were with great teams to bad teams... Specifically, Jordan's only losses were with rookie teams and low seeds to 1 or 2-seeded opponents, while Lebron lost with super-teams (11') or 1-seeded organic juggernauts (10') to 3 and 4 seeded opponents.

[Full Court]

Hard disagree here, there's a clear difference in performance for guys like Shaq & Hakeem during their peak years as opposed to other prime years. 2000 Shaq was simply a different animal than the 90's version.

And sure, LeBron being great for so long, in addition to all of his accomplishments, give him a valid argument for GOAT.

The most choke jobs of all time, to include the WORST choke job of all time in 2011, destroy any reasonable case for GOAT. Not even close.

GOATs don't get outplayed by Jason Terry.

[SouBeachTalents]

The most choke jobs of all time
The thread's about LeBron, not Wilt.

[Full Court]

The thread's about LeBron, not Wilt.

Nice try. :lol

Oh, just curious. Did Wilt ever get outplayed by Jason Terry in a finals series?

There's a reason Jordan's still consensus GOAT despite the recency bias and media hype. Sucks to be a Bronie fluffer. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

Nice try. :lol

Oh, just curious. Did Wilt ever get outplayed by Jason Terry in a finals series?

There's a reason Jordan's still consensus GOAT despite the recency bias and media hype. Sucks to be a Bronie fluffer. :confusedshrug:

Wilt was out scored by Don Nelson in a Finals

[ArbitraryWater]

Wilt was out scored by Don Nelson in a Finals

:lol


Kobe was outscored by Austin Croshere in a Finals

[Full Court]

Wilt was out scored by Don Nelson in a Finals

Don Nelson? The Hall of Famer?? You don't say!!!!
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgifdb.com%2Fimages%2Ffile%2Fthe-wire-drama-wee-bey-brice-realization-reaction-14dv0uw0gurm1xef.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=cb0c793752329de2b2216a40147477bc008f75c0f5cf97 ae15fff854ea2e7309&ipo=images

The desperate measures you Bronies take to try to salvage his legacy is truly comical. :roll:

Check this out, homie:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. aIvXSAFKsmWWqdJjcVDO2AHaFm%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=bd0e76b12303e58ec22ec5c998ce9d5c0ae8f1e9bb56a8 826582a291b0892ab6&ipo=images

[SouBeachTalents]

Wilt was out scored by Don Nelson in a Finals
Don't forget the immortal Larry Seigfried & Johnny Egan.

What's funny is Wilt's career Finals ppg average was nearly identical to what LeBron averaged in 2011 :lol

[RRR3]

Don Nelson? The Hall of Famer?? You don't say!!!!
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fgifdb.com%2Fimages%2Ffile%2Fthe-wire-drama-wee-bey-brice-realization-reaction-14dv0uw0gurm1xef.gif&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=cb0c793752329de2b2216a40147477bc008f75c0f5cf97 ae15fff854ea2e7309&ipo=images

The desperate measures you Bronies take to try to salvage his legacy is truly comical. :roll:

Check this out, homie:
https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Ftse1.mm.bing.net%2Fth%3Fid%3DOIP. aIvXSAFKsmWWqdJjcVDO2AHaFm%26pid%3DApi&f=1&ipt=bd0e76b12303e58ec22ec5c998ce9d5c0ae8f1e9bb56a8 826582a291b0892ab6&ipo=images
Don Nelson is in the HOF as a coach. This is like saying the Knicks were stacked in the 70s because they had Phil Jackson.

[ShawkFactory]

Don Nelson? The Hall of Famer?? You don't say!!!!


Oof lol

[Full Court]

Don Nelson is in the HOF as a coach. This is like saying the Knicks were stacked in the 70s because they had Phil Jackson.

Incidentally, nobody is out there claiming Wilt is the GOAT. Funny thing is though, he actually has a better case for it that LeShrivel does.

[Airupthere]

Incidentally, nobody is out there claiming Wilt is the GOAT. Funny thing is though, he actually has a better case for it that LeShrivel does.

Wilt is one of those players that change the game. Lebron simply benefits from it and yet him and cronies still have the gall to shit on players of the past.

[1987_Lakers]

Oof lol

:oldlol:

[Axe]

The thread's about LeBron, not Wilt.
:roll:

[Full Court]

:roll:

I KNEW that talking about Lebron getting sonned by Jason Terry would send this autistic idiot into a bitch fit. :roll:


I must be psychic.

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fuproxx.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Froll-safe-meme-kayode-ewumi_bbc-three.jpg%3Fw%3D650&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=35bbaf19754b86f6627a0360133a3334f9a11d3520fd61 7ad30e0a24c9d4ece8&ipo=images

[Axe]

https://i.makeagif.com/media/7-14-2024/9we3G6.gif






The 2016 Cavs were the only team in the league with 3 franchise players, while every other team only had 1, so the Cavs were given preseason favorite status and expected to win the title.

Unfortunately, the Cavs fell to underdog by the time the Finals arrived due to a vastly underachieving regular season of 57 wins, despite having a "dream team" roster that historically gets 65+ wins, if we use the 86' Celtics or 87' Lakers as comparisons.. Or if you think that's unfair, then the 07' Mavs or 09' Lakers, who clearly had much less talent... The professional statisticians (above) back this idea that the 15' and 16' Cavs were among the most stacked rosters of all-time.

In the Finals, Lebron averaged 24 and 6 TO's to get a 1-3 deficit despite having 2 extra franchise players compared to Curry, the preseason favorite, and the unprecedented help of a sidekick outplaying the current MVP.

Ultimately, this was a lucky title that the Cavs weren't supposed to win if Silver doesn't interfere and Bogut/Iggy don't get hurt late in the series.. The Warriors had JUST ENOUGH gas in the tank to win 73 and the title, so the Draymond suspension cut off a well-running engine - there's no way to get it back and running in time.








Jordan was already unbeatable with just 1 star teammate, so he wouldn't lose to any team with 2 star teammates..

Let the historical record do the talking:

Jordan's only losses were with bad teams to great teams, while Lebron's losses were with great teams to bad teams... Specifically, Jordan's only losses were with rookie teams and low seeds to 1 or 2-seeded opponents, while Lebron lost with super-teams (11') or 1-seeded organic juggernauts (10') to 3 and 4 seeded opponents.
Kyle rittenhouse.

[tpols]

Don't forget the immortal Larry Seigfried & Johnny Egan.

What's funny is Wilt's career Finals ppg average was nearly identical to what LeBron averaged in 2011 :lol

Two legends in the game. I'm hoping Kblaze can drop by and enamor us with tales of their forgotten past glory. Its so important to remember the pioneers.

[ArbitraryWater]

Don Nelson? The Hall of Famer?? You don't say!!!!


:roll:

[Full Court]

:roll:

I know, right? Keeping in mind, that 87_Lakers is the same guy who didn't know Sabonis was an all star. :roll:

[1987_Lakers]

:roll:

He really thought Don Nelson made the hall of fame for his playing career. :roll:

[Full Court]

I know, right? Keeping in mind, that 87_Lakers is the same guy who didn't know Sabonis was an all star. :roll:

Oh, and he thought that Tom Brady had the most choke jobs in NBA history. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhealthygeorge.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F03%2FTom-Goofy-Brady.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4cc4c17c14bb9a311170269706a2b9005890fda77e5c40 8b22e45a8acd18ba3e&ipo=images


And I guess that genius doesn't realize that Nelson's HOF entry covers his entire career as a player and coach. :confusedshrug:

Must suck to lose time and time again.

[RRR3]

Oh, and he thought that Tom Brady had the most choke jobs in NBA history. :roll:

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fhealthygeorge.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2022%2F03%2FTom-Goofy-Brady.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=4cc4c17c14bb9a311170269706a2b9005890fda77e5c40 8b22e45a8acd18ba3e&ipo=images


And I guess that genius doesn't realize that Nelson's HOF entry covers his entire career as a player and coach. :confusedshrug:

Must suck to lose time and time again.
No his HOF entry is specifically for his coaching career. He went in the coach category. If it was for both he would have gone in the contributor category or been inducted twice as a coach and a player. You quite literally don’t know what you’re talking about.

[Full Court]

No his HOF entry is specifically for his coaching career. He went in the coach category. If it was for both he would have gone in the contributor category or been inducted twice as a coach and a player. You quite literally don’t know what you’re talking about.

And you literally can't that the fact that your hero LeShrivel got outplayed and sonned by Jason Terry. No amount of "Don Nelson" deflection can change that.

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

https://basketballmuseumofillinois.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Don_Nelson2.jpg

[Full Court]

https://basketballmuseumofillinois.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/Don_Nelson2.jpg

Rage and fume all you want, but Lebron STILL got Jason Terry'd. :roll:

Worst choke job OF ALL TIME.

Imagine having that guy as your GOAT. :confusedshrug:

[1987_Lakers]

Rage and fume all you want, but Lebron STILL got Jason Terry'd. :roll:

Worst choke job OF ALL TIME.

Imagine having that guy as your GOAT. :confusedshrug:

Quite the meltdown you are having.

https://a57.foxnews.com/media2.foxnews.com/BrightCove/694940094001/2019/02/22/896/500/694940094001_6005711012001_6005711239001-vs.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

[Full Court]

Quite the meltdown you are having.

https://a57.foxnews.com/media2.foxnews.com/BrightCove/694940094001/2019/02/22/896/500/694940094001_6005711012001_6005711239001-vs.jpg?ve=1&tl=1

^Trying to do damage control because he got destroyed YET AGAIN by Full Court. :roll:

Serious question for you. Who's a bigger choker? Lebron in the NBA, or you on ISH. :lol

:lebroncry:

[1987_Lakers]

Imagine getting outscored by this guy.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBP-FAjxzNQ

[Full Court]

Full Court: Lebron, AKA LeShrivel, has the most choke jobs in the history of the sport. [shows documented proof]

1987_Dudley: Bu-bu-bu-bu-bu-bu TOM BRADY!!! Bu-bu-bu-but DON NELSON!!!





Full Court: Jordan is an entire tier above Lebron.

1987_Dudley: Bu-bu-bu-but WILT CHAMBERLAIN.


:roll: Utter desperation.

[dankok8]

The problem with Lebron in 2017 and especially 2018 is his inconsistent defense. He gave a lot of extra impact he produced on offense back on the defensive end. Not that I blame him because he carried a huge offensive load but it did come at a price. Overall I don't think his impact in 2018 surpassed that in say 2016. And the impact stats like RAPM, EPM, RAPTOR etc. agree. In fact, I'm pretty confident saying 2016 > 2018.

[sdot_thadon]

The problem with Lebron in 2017 and especially 2018 is his inconsistent defense. He gave a lot of extra impact he produced on offense back on the defensive end. Not that I blame him because he carried a huge offensive load but it did come at a price. Overall I don't think his impact in 2018 surpassed that in say 2016. And the impact stats like RAPM, EPM, RAPTOR etc. agree. In fact, I'm pretty confident saying 2016 > 2018.

Yeah his defensive effort has been more or less picking his spots all seasons beyond 2016. He still has the elite ability but I beleive it was either an adjustment to keep his motor high on the other end as he aged, or a middle finger to not getting as recognized for his peak defensive ability as he wanted.

[Gudo]

Yeah his defensive effort has been more or less picking his spots all seasons beyond 2016. He still has the elite ability but I beleive it was either an adjustment to keep his motor high on the other end as he aged, or a middle finger to not getting as recognized for his peak defensive ability as he wanted.

So, tantrum because he did not get the recognition that he wanted? And this is supposed to be an good trait?

[StrongLurk]

Can't compare things that happened in an era with a shortened 3-point line. Sucks because MJ probably is the best player ever, but the NBA 94-99 was so comically weak on talent, team building, and shooting that it's just a clearly inferior era. There is no way to directly know what 96-98 MJ would do in 2016-2018 :lol.

Lebron is the GOAT of the modern era and that's really the only fact we have here. MJ was the GOAT in the previous era.

[tpols]

Can't compare things that happened in an era with a shortened 3-point line. Sucks because MJ probably is the best player ever, but the NBA 94-99 was so comically weak on talent, team building, and shooting that it's just a clearly inferior era. There is no way to directly know what 96-98 MJ would do in 2016-2018 :lol.

Lebron is the GOAT of the modern era and that's really the only fact we have here. MJ was the GOAT in the previous era.


1996 to 1998 was a very competitive era. 1994 took a dive only because MJ retired pretty much. 1999 as well.

The superstar talent from '96 - '98 was super elite. Just looking at the All NBA teams you had prime:

MJ
Hakeem
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Stockton
Reggie
Clyde
Penny
Payton
Kemp
Ewing
Zo
Grant Hill
Mutumbo

etc.

The only difference was the role players couldn't shoot 3s which cratered their efficiency compared to today's role player 3pt spam, and provided less spacing.

Teams today are better but stars really... aren't.

[SouBeachTalents]

1996 to 1998 was a very competitive era. 1994 took a dive only because MJ retired pretty much. 1999 as well.

The superstar talent from '96 - '98 was super elite. Just looking at the All NBA teams you had prime:

MJ
Hakeem
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Stockton
Reggie
Clyde
Penny
Payton
Kemp
Ewing
Zo
Grant Hill
Mutumbo

etc.

The only difference was the role players couldn't shoot 3s which cratered their efficiency compared to today's role player 3pt spam, and provided less spacing.

Teams today are better but stars really... aren't.
So many of those guys were at the very tail end of their primes by the late 90's or completely out of it by '98

Hakeem, Robinson, Barkley, Clyde, Ewing were all unquestionably on the downslope of their careers by then. The late 90's honestly was a very weak era, we don't have to pretend otherwise because it involved Jordan :lol

[Phoenix]

1996 to 1998 was a very competitive era. 1994 took a dive only because MJ retired pretty much. 1999 as well.

The superstar talent from '96 - '98 was super elite. Just looking at the All NBA teams you had prime:

MJ
Hakeem
Robinson
Barkley
Malone
Stockton
Reggie
Clyde
Penny
Payton
Kemp
Ewing
Zo
Grant Hill
Mutumbo

etc.



Prime? The bolded were like 33-35 during this period. 96-98 was a cross period where the 80's/90s stars were aging and guys like Garnett/Shaq/Hill/Penny/Duncan were still on the up.

[sdot_thadon]

So, tantrum because he did not get the recognition that he wanted? And this is supposed to be an good trait?

I wouldn't say tantrum, but i do remember him. Campaigning a bit and giving extra effort on the defensive end some years. Not really much different than MJs triple doubles streak because he wanted to be seen as a player that could do what Magic could do.... These guys have motivations inside the games too, but i could also see all that extra effort being tough on a player once were reaching beyond season 15. I mean ask yourself self this, what player have we ever expected high level defense from or criticized defensively past year 15......ever? I'll wait.

[ShawkFactory]

Prime? The bolded were like 33-35 during this period. 96-98 was a cross period where the 80's/90s stars were aging and guys like Garnett/Shaq/Hill/Penny/Duncan were still on the up.

Yea 96-98 wasn’t it. The peak of the league was 85-95

[Phoenix]

Yea 96-98 wasn’t it. The peak of the league was 85-95

At the very least it was the peak for the players TPols is calling 'prime'. And earlier I didn't even mention the Canadian expansion teams. So yeah, in retrospect not a strong period for the league.

[1987_Lakers]

Yea 96-98 wasn’t it. The peak of the league was 85-95

Have to include '84 just because of the Lakers-Celtics Finals that year. To me it's '84-'93. The 2008-2016 era was pretty fun too. KD ruined it by joining the Warriors, would have had seen at least one more competitive Warriors-Cavs Finals.

On second thought I would extend it to 2018 just because of LeBron's postseason performance that year.