Lebron James and Scottie Pippen.

[Lebron23]

How many championship if they team up in the 1990's?.

[Full Court]

How many championship if they team up in the 1990's?.

None. Lebron had too much of a propensity to choke.

If Jason Terry sonned Lebron, just imagine what Magic, prime Malone, Hakeem, Barkley, Kemp, etc. would do.

[1987_Lakers]

10

[SouBeachTalents]

LeBron never retires like a bitch, they probably 8peat.

Good question though Louie.

[Airupthere]

Lol, always the same fking 90s references.

[Full Court]

Put Lebron on the 90's Jazz they never make it to the finals. Lebron dominates the ball while Stockton stands around not knowing what to do.

[Phoenix]

You'd have to ask this question on a forum that actually discusses basketball( such a thing may not exist nowadays), but I'll try because I'm bored:

Lebron and Pippen aren't as good a pairing as MJ and Pippen, and its not because of whether you think Jordan is better than Lebron or vice versa. There are very obvious redundancies in their game that would have undermined them at some point, same as 2011 Lebron and Wade where neither could 'really' be the best versions of themselves unless they were playing 'your turn, my turn', and won when Wade took a step back and they filled out the roster with better supporting talent. You'll get a few chips out of that but it's not ideal basketball. The triangle doesn't even suit Lebron's strengths as a playmaker unless he was actually playing in Scottie's spot, but then what becomes of Scottie if you're taking him more off the ball? Frankly, with Lebron's skillset, he'd probably do better with Reggie Miller on that Pacers squad than Scottie even though the latter is obviously the better overall player. At some point you need to go beyond talent and look at chemistry/fit.

[Duffy Pratt]

Put Lebron on the 90's Jazz they never make it to the finals. Lebron dominates the ball while Stockton stands around not knowing what to do.

And Malone told to stand in the corner and wait for passes for 3 point shots.

[Full Court]

And Malone told to stand in the corner and wait for passes for 3 point shots.

Precisely.

[Airupthere]

He'd get Pippen traded asap

[dbugz]

a top 11 player in lebron and 30ish in pippen?

I say maybe 2 at best.

[tpols]

Given how bad Scottie played in the late 80s up into 1990 I'm not sure they'd get over the hump with a young Lebron, who faltered constantly in his career early on in the playoffs as well.

It's also a terrible fit. Lebron and Pippen? Sounds like another Westbrook situation of lack of spacing and your turn my turn dribbling expos. Ugly ass basketball.

But who knows.

[Full Court]

Given how bad Scottie played in the late 80s up into 1990 I'm not sure they'd get over the hump with a young Lebron, who faltered constantly in his career early on in the playoffs as well.

It's also a terrible fit. Lebron and Pippen? Sounds like another Westbrook situation of lack of spacing and your turn my turn dribbling expos. Ugly ass basketball.

But who knows.

Yup, all the Bronie fluffers would be coming out of the woodwork about how Scottie is pure trash and Lebron needed more help. :lol

[Phoenix]

Given how bad Scottie played in the late 80s up into 1990 I'm not sure they'd get over the hump with a young Lebron, who faltered constantly in his career early on in the playoffs as well.

It's also a terrible fit. Lebron and Pippen? Sounds like another Westbrook situation of lack of spacing and your turn my turn dribbling expos. Ugly ass basketball.

But who knows.

It would be worse than that even, because at least with Lebron and Wade, the latter had an elite iso game and that wasn't Pippen's game.

[RRR3]

If LeBron got to play against the 80s and 90s competition (literal grocery baggers and mechanics and tons of guys who literally couldn't hit a jumper)? They'd win like 10 rings. Today I don't think it's an ideal pairing because the league is much tougher now and Pippen isn't an ideal second option in terms of scoring anymore. For his time he was a dominant second option scoring wise but pretty mid for today's standards.

[ArbitraryWater]

It would be worse than that even, because at least with Lebron and Wade, the latter had an elite iso game and that wasn't Pippen's game.

and what did MJ do for Pippens game?

[Phoenix]

and what did MJ do for Pippens game?

What does that question have to do with what I said? Pippen didn't have an elite ISO game.

[ArbitraryWater]

What does that question have to do with what I said? Pippen didn't have an elite ISO game.

Because if MJ didnt do anything for Pips game, Pippen isnt diminished next to leBron, which is what this discussion is about.

How did you need that explained?

[Phoenix]

Because if MJ didnt do anything for Pips game, Pippen isnt diminished next to leBron, which is what this discussion is about.

How did you need that explained?


MJ and Pippen's games meshed perfectly. That's why they went on to be one of the greatest duos ever. We have the benefit of hindsight to know how they played off each other and what they achieved. What specifically MJ did or didn't do for his game is a talking point you deemed pertinent to inject into the conversation, mostly because you seem to have perceived my comment as an intended slight to Lebron. As opposed to the actual intent of my post, which is dealing in the reality of the players' skillsets being discussed and who works best with whom. For one thing, just swapping out MJ with Lebron like basketball is just simple plug and play is silly, especially players at this level.

As I said, Lebron and Wade weren't a perfect fit either, the only difference is Wade had a better iso game than Pip and took on a lesser role ( or to use your terms, 'diminished') for that team to win titles. Pippen wasn't an elite iso scorer in the same vein so yes, it may have adversely impacted him or he'd have to make changes to his game that we can only speculate on as it to what extent and what level of success that may or may not occur. Especially when you consider that Lebron would probably be the main facilitator which again, was a large part of Pippen's role. It's why I said earlier that Lebron may actually be better off with someone like Reggie Miller who would thrive as an off-ball target with no changes to his game needed whatsoever, than doing mental gymnastics trying to figure how Lebron and Pippen fit together based on what we know about their respective skillsets, what kind of player(s) works best with Lebron, and what kind of role Pippen occupied on the Bulls.

I'm not sure how you needed *that* explained.

[3ba11]

.
ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT MJ:



1993' BJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstbj01.html#all_per_game_stats)................ .... 4.0
94-96' BJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/armstbj01.html#1994-1996-sum:per_game_stats)................... 3.9 (no MJ)

90-93' Pippen (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game)............. 6.2
94-95' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats)............. 5.4 (no MJ)
96-98' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats)............. 5.8
99-03' Pippen (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1999-2003-sum:per_game_stats)............. 5.1 (no MJ)

89-93' Horace (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html#1989-1993-sum:per_game_stats)............. 2.5
94-02' Horace (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/grantho01.html#1994-2002-sum:per_game_stats)............. 2.3 (no MJ)

90-95' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1990-1995-sum:per_game_stats)........... 1.7 (no MJ)
96-98' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats)........... 2.8
99-00' Rodman (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/rodmade01.html#1999-2000-sum:per_game_stats)........... 1.3 (no MJ)

93-94' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1993-1994-sum:per_game_stats)............ 1.2 (no MJ)
96-98' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game_stats)............ 2.4
99-00' Longley (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/longllu01.html#1999-2000-sum:per_game_stats)............ 1.1 (no MJ)

80-87' Cartwright (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartwbi01.html#1980-1987-sum:per_game_stats)....... 1.6 (no MJ)
89-94' Cartwright (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/cartwbi01.html#1989-1994-sum:per_game_stats)....... 1.5



ASSISTS PER GAME AS A STARTER WITH AND WITHOUT LEBRON:



12-14' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.8 (no Lebron)
15-17' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.3
18-24' Kyrie (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2018-2024-sum:per_game_stats)............... 5.8 (no Lebron)

04-10' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)............... 1.6
15-16' Bosh (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2015-2016-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.3 (no Lebron)

11-14' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)............... 3.0 (no Lebron)
15-18' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2018-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.1
19-21' Love (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2019-2021-sum:per_game_stats)............... 2.8 (no Lebron)

05-08' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game_stats)................. 5.7 (no Lebron)
09-10' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game_stats)................. 4.6
11-13' Mo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2011-2013-sum:per_game_stats)................. 5.3 (no Lebron)

09-10' Chalmers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game_stats)........ 4.2 (no Lebron)
11-14' Chalmers (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chalmma01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats)........ 3.6

99-04' Snow (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/snower01.html#1999-2004-sum:per_game_stats).............. 6.9 (no Lebron)
06-07' Snow (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/s/snower01.html#2006-2007-sum:per_game_stats).............. 4.1

01-05' Hughes (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#2001-2005-sum:per_game_stats)........... 3.8 (no Lebron)
06-08' Hughes (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hughela01.html#2006-2008-sum:per_game_stats)........... 3.3

2018 Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_per_game_stats)............. 3.9 (no Lebron)
2019 Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#all_per_game_stats)............. 3.0
20-25' Ingram (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/ingrabr01.html#2020-2025-sum:per_game_stats)........... 5.2 (no Lebron

2019 Kuzma (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01.html#all_per_game_stats).............. 2.5
22-25' Kuzma (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/k/kuzmaky01.html#2022-2025-sum:per_game_stats)............ 3.8 (no Lebron)

2018 Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#all_per_game_stats)................. . 7.2 (no Lebron)
2019 Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#all_per_game_stats)................. . 5.4
20-22' Ball (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/balllo01.html#2020-2022-sum:per_game_stats)................ 6.1 (no Lebron)

00-09' Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#2000-2009-sum:per_game_stats).......... 1.8 (no Lebron)
2010 Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#all_per_game_stats)............ 1.3
11-12' Jamison (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamisan01.html#2011-2012-sum:per_game_stats).......... 1.9 (no Lebron)

04-10' Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game_stats).............. 6.6 (no Lebron)
11-14' Wade (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game_stats).............. 4.7

19-22' D-Lo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russeda01.html#2019-2022-sum:per_game_stats)............... 6.7 (no Lebron)
23-25' D-Lo (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/russeda01.html#2023-2025-sum:per_game_stats)............... 6.2

09-21' Westbrook (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html#2009-2021-sum:per_game_stats)....... 8.5 (no Lebron)
2022 Westbrook (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/westbru01.html#all_per_game_stats)..........7.1

15-18'' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2015-2018-sum:per_game_stats)................ 2.0 (no Lebron)
19-21' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2019-2021-sum:per_game_stats)................. 1.6
22-25' KCP (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/caldwke01.html#2022-2025-sum:per_game_stats)................. 2.2 (no Lebron)



Lebron lowered his teammates' assists, while MJ increased his teammates' assists.

In addition to reducing teammates' assists, high-scoring primary ballhandlers increase teammates' assisted rate (play-finishing, aka "spot-up roles), as shown in the next post below.

[3ba11]

.
All high-scoring, primary ball-handlers like Lebron lower their teammates' APG (playmaking) and increase their assisted rate (play-finishing, aka "turning teammates into spot-up shooter"):



.................................................. ........APG.................. ASSISTED RATE

wade BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):........... 6.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game)............................29.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
wade WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):'......... 4.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game)............................40.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/wadedw01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

irving BEFORE lebron (12'-14'):.......... 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:per_game)............................31.9% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2012-2014-sum:shooting)
irving WITH.... lebron.. (15-17'):........ 5.3 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:per_game)............................32.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/irvinky01.html#2015-2017-sum:shooting)

bosh BEFORE lebron (04'-10'):'........... 2.2 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:per_game)............................55.8% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2004-2010-sum:shooting)
bosh WITH.... lebron (11'-14'):........... 1.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:per_game)............................71.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/boshch01.html#2011-2014-sum:shooting)

love BEFORE lebron (09'-14'):............. 2.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:per_game).............................62.7% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2009-2014-sum:shooting)
love WITH.... lebron (15'-18'):............. 2.1 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2018-sum:per_game)............................78.3% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01.html#2015-2018-sum:shooting)

mo BEFORE lebron (05'-08'):............... 5.7 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2005-2008-sum:per_game).............................39.2% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2004-2008-sum:shooting)
mo WITH.... lebron (09'-10'):............... 4.6 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:per_game).............................47.6% (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/w/willima01.html#2009-2010-sum:shooting)


FYI...

pippen WITH... jordan 91'-93':............. 6.5 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1991-1993-sum:per_game)
pippen W/OUT jordan 94'-95':............. 5.4 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1994-1995-sum:per_game)
pippen WITH... jordan 96'-98':............. 5.8 (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/pippesc01.html#1996-1998-sum:per_game)

[3ba11]

Lebron needs ready-made stars

He never took a low-producing rookie and developed them into anything because he turns everyone into spot-up shooter... This is statistical fact because he reduces teammates' assists (playmaking) and increases their assisted rate (play-finishing) - how could Pippen develop when Lebron is reducing his assists?.. Accordingly, Lebron needs ready-made stars..

As a high-scoring primary ball-handler, Lebron has a large volume of unassisted buckets that leave Pippen standing around, while Jordan's assisted buckets involve Pippen and pad Pippen's assist numbers.. Curry would have a similar effect as Jordan, or any higher-assisted skillset like bigs or other jumpshooters..

In addition to Lebron's skillset being incapable of developing young players, Lebron needs superior scoring, clutch/closing and playmaking ability than Pippen could provide - Pippen lacked a breakdown handle and elite assist capability that Wade, Kyrie, D-Lo, Rondo, and Westbrook have.. .Lebron was happy to acqiuire IT for goodness sakes, so he would be disappointed in Pippen's caliber, which had a lower assist capability than all of the main ball-handlers that Lebron ever played with.

Finally, Pippen required the triangle and was nothing without it, while Lebron cannot play in the triangle because the triangle doesn't use low-assisted players like Lebron... Pippen's assisted rate was 60% and Jordan's was 50%, while Lebron's was between 29-41 in his prime (36 average) - this type of "primary ball-handler" isn't used in the triangle - literally none of the players that won 11 titles with the triangle had below a 40% assisted rate (no primary ballhandlers).

[ILLsmak]

Triple post.

-Smak