Why doesn’t the US produce MVP-level white players like Jokic, Doncic, Dirk or Nash?

[Drygon]

In the 21st Century, the NBA had a few superstar players who were white. But all of them came from other countries.

Larry Bird is the last American white player who won MVP about 40 years ago. In the 90s and early 2000s, guys like John Stockton and Jason Kidd were among the best players in entire NBA.

Since then, the existence of white American superstar players came to an end. White players who won MVP or were All-NBA First Team since then always came from Europe or Canada (guys like Nowitzki, Nash, Jokic, Doncic). And even the white players who are a bit below superstar calibre in todays NBA are from Europe (Sabonis, Gasol, Markkanen, Porzingis, etc).

Why does the US produce so many great black Basketball players, but no great white Basketball players anymore?

[Neal Romer]

Honestly cant wait til Canada's a state so we can correctly identify Nash as an American and stop with this.

[3ba11]

it's because silver turned the league into a hands-off, spaced-out beginner format that doesn't produce the best players anymore, while the international formats have less spacing and more physicality, so they produce all the best players

[Neal Romer]

it's because silver turned the league into a hands-off, spaced-out beginner format that doesn't produce the best players anymore, while the international formats have less spacing and more physicality, so they produce all the best players

Eight.

Six.

Seven.

Five.


ONE FOR NIIIIEEEEEIIIIIIIIIN

[tpols]

White people get a chance in Europe because it's mostly white. In the American AAU scene they prioritize black athletes and a flashier dribble heavy iso style. That's why you see so many of these Uber athlete talents flame out and a fat guy with a 10 inch vertical like Jokic runs them out the gym.

Jokic types wouldn't have gotten the time of day in the American system to shine though. Same reason he fell to the 2nd round. The NBA prioritize flashiness over substance and intelligence.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's a different era now. It's not like the weak 90's where sure, you had juggernauts like the Bulls winning 55 games without Jordan, but the international competition was garbage back then, as was the rest of the league

The international competition, as well as the overall strength of the league since roughly 2012 has improved dramatically, the league is as strong and as competitive as it's ever been.

[Im Still Ballin]

Population size and socio-cultural factors.

USA population: 334.9 million (2023)
White USA population: 219.5 million (2022)
Europe population: 742.3 million (2023)

Holmgren and Flagg are the two best white American prospects of the 21st century I think off the top of my head. Kevin Love is probably the best since Bird, no? Anyways, Chet and Cooper have the potential to be the best since Larry Legend.

[Jasper]

In the 21st Century, the NBA had a few superstar players who were white. But all of them came from other countries.

Larry Bird is the last American white player who won MVP about 40 years ago. In the 90s and early 2000s, guys like John Stockton and Jason Kidd were among the best players in entire NBA.

Since then, the existence of white American superstar players came to an end. White players who won MVP or were All-NBA First Team since then always came from Europe or Canada (guys like Nowitzki, Nash, Jokic, Doncic). And even the white players who are a bit below superstar calibre in todays NBA are from Europe (Sabonis, Gasol, Markkanen, Porzingis, etc).

Why does the US produce so many great black Basketball players, but no great white Basketball players anymore?

bird??

[Jasper]

Honestly cant wait til Canada's a state so we can correctly identify Nash as an American and stop with this.

And Mexico .. has a pretty good golfer !!!

god what a dumb fvck

[Phoenix]

it's because silver turned the league into a hands-off, spaced-out beginner format that doesn't produce the best players anymore, while the international formats have less spacing and more physicality, so they produce all the best players

Bird has basically been the only MVP level/best in the league white American player and he preceded Silver.

[Neal Romer]

Population size and socio-cultural factors.

USA population: 334.9 million (2023)
White USA population: 219.5 million (2022)
Europe population: 742.3 million (2023)

Holmgren and Flagg are the two best white American prospects of the 21st century I think off the top of my head. Kevin Love is probably the best since Bird, no? Anyways, Chet and Cooper have the potential to be the best since Larry Legend.

This also includes sub ethnic groups that historically arent very tall: Italians, Jews, Irish, Puerto Ricans. All considered white but arent producing the same consistent physical statures ideal for basketball as black americans or european nordics and balkans.

And then also, before recent technology it was just easier to scout in concentrated areas. In urban areas blacks are going to have a consistency of athleticism you wont find among the aforementioned subethnic whites. Robust whites are much more scattered around the country in suburbs and small towns. You just got more bang for your buck scouting black gyms before the advent of camera phones and social media and rideshare apps.

[Phoenix]

I wouldn't really lump Nash in with the white Euros. Yes he's not 'U.S American' per se, being Canadian ( born in South Africa and came over as an infant) but he's a product of the 'North' American system.

[Im Still Ballin]

This also includes sub ethnic groups that historically arent very tall: Italians, Jews, Irish, Puerto Ricans. All considered white but arent producing the same consistent physical statures ideal for basketball as black americans or european nordics and balkans.

And then also, before recent technology it was just easier to scout in concentrated areas. In urban areas blacks are going to have a consistency of athleticism you wont find among the aforementioned subethnic whites. Robust whites are much more scattered around the country in suburbs and small towns. You just got more bang for your buck scouting black gyms before the advent of camera phones and social media and rideshare apps.

Not to mention that blacks physically mature faster. I'm pretty sure that's been proven by studies/research. Late bloomer prospects fall through the cracks all the time. A guy like Jokic would've 100% have fallen through the cracks had he been born and raised in the USA.

[Akhenaten]

https://cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/gmg/H2GXCWPKRVAZ3DWIDJEVOTX2QU.jpg

[Neal Romer]

Not to mention that blacks physically mature faster. I'm pretty sure that's been proven by studies/research. Late bloomer prospects fall through the cracks all the time. A guy like Jokic would've 100% have fallen through the cracks had he been born and raised in the USA.

Sort of. Faster, albeit not sooner. The scientific literature Ive read on this is that the peak is roughly equal, but it's a more gradual incline and decline in whites and more of a spike and drop in blacks.

Meaning caucasians start their buildup to their physical prime at an earlier age, but once blacks start they develop quickly. And then blacks tend to drop a bit faster while the white decline spreads more over time. But the actual level of the peak is basically the same.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Because white Americans are fat slobs.

[Doomsday Dallas]

We will always have Larry Bird

[Mask the Embiid]

Because we break em early in high school/middleschool/ elementaryschool before they even get off the ground. They get athletically broken by their black peers. Dirk didn't have to go up against black players in Germany so his spirt never got broken. By the time he was around 16 it was too late to break em, he knew he could compete even at an athletic disadvantage.


It would be the same thing in football. It would be all types of white DBs and running backs if overseas cared about American football growing up. Because they would never get broken by being outmatched or coaches steering them to other positions



im just keeping it 55th street (honest) with ya .




+ overseas doesn't have the inferior aau system. which allows these foreign players to play with and vs different skill levels constantly....They are not always on all star teams so they have to develop the take over gene. They cant rely on another 5 star recruit to bail them out. All they have to rely on is some kid from down the street who is only playing the sport cause his parents wants him out the house. He doesnt even care about basketball.


In about 10 years TEAM USA will not even be in the gold medal game. We are producing too many tatums and not enough Kobes. Just soft teamplayers....soft as hell. Look how easily he lost his confidence in a team usa atmosphere. When he was around real dogs everywhere. Real rottweilers! LeGerman Shepherd.... Players who grew up in a different era of aau where you still had bums on your teams(pretty much just the neighborhood kids not best kids from the city or county or state or coast)


What have we had? 1 "take over" esque player in the past 15 years come out of current AAU superteam system. Anthony Edwards... i cant think of another off the top of my head who came into the league stepping on toes. Maxey is developing the take over gene but it took him til this year to know how to play with a team of bums. He's just figuring it out in like year 4 or 5. He should of been knew how to do this. Most people cant figure shit out on a professional level. Thats rare.


Thats why i like what gilbert arenas did with his son. He didnt allow him to play with superteams...no you figure out with these random kids from your neighborhood and highschool who really dgaf about basketball. you figure out how to beat these superteams by yourself so when you get to the pros it will be easy when you actually have good teammates

[Mask the Embiid]

Bird has basically been the only MVP level/best in the league white American player and he preceded Silver.

Larry Bird grew up playing with all older black kids. So he never got broken because he assumed he was at a disadvantage because of age. SO he never got psychologically broken + he had the benefit of going up against players better than him non stop who allowed him to develop. They didnt kick him off the court just cause he had a bad game. They allowed him to play pg and develop his game. Bird was prolly the only white kid in the neighborhood or youngest kid so they actually probably looked out for him or it was such few kids in his area you just had to play with whoever was there all day cause nobody had next


one or the other

[ShawkFactory]

Because we break em early in high school/middleschool/ elementaryschool before they even get off the ground. They get athletically broken by their black peers. Dirk didn't have to go up against black players in Germany so his spirt never got broken. By the time he was around 16 it was too late to break em, he knew he could compete even at an athletic disadvantage.


It would be the same thing in football. It would be all types of white DBs and running backs if overseas cared about American football growing up. Because they would never get broken by being outmatched or coaches steering them to other positions



im just keeping it 55th street (honest) with ya .




+ overseas doesn't have the inferior aau system. which allows these foreign players to play with and vs different skill levels constantly....They are not always on all star teams so they have to develop the take over gene. They cant rely on another 5 star recruit to bail them out. All they have to rely on is some kid from down the street who is only playing the sport cause his parents wants him out the house. He doesnt even care about basketball.


In about 10 years TEAM USA will not even be in the gold medal game. We are producing too many tatums and not enough Kobes. Just soft teamplayers....soft as hell. Look how easily he lost his confidence in a team usa atmosphere. When he was around real dogs everywhere. Real rottweilers! LeGerman Shepherd.... Players who grew up in a different era of aau where you still had bums on your teams(pretty much just the neighborhood kids not best kids from the city or county or state or coast)


What have we had? 1 "take over" esque player in the past 15 years come out of current AAU superteam system. Anthony Edwards... i cant think of another off the top of my head who came into the league stepping on toes. Maxey is developing the take over gene but it took him til this year to know how to play with a team of bums. He's just figuring it out in like year 4 or 5. He should of been knew how to do this. Most people cant figure shit out on a professional level. Thats rare.


Thats why i like what gilbert arenas did with his son. He didnt allow him to play with superteams...no you figure out with these random kids from your neighborhood and highschool who really dgaf about basketball. you figure out how to beat these superteams by yourself so when you get to the pros it will be easy when you actually have good teammates

That was a really long novel to say that Euro white dudes not getting broken early means they obviously get to have the last laugh because they’re actually better.

Who’s the real winner? Hard to say. I guess it’s repentance for slavery or something.

[90sgoat]

High quality thread

[iamgine]

As already said, Blacks dominate the lower levels because they are so damn athletic.

At lower levels, athleticism matters A LOT more because your skill, height, strength, coach, teammates are not maximized yet. Have anyone here played against an athletic black high schooler? It's a nightmare.

[HoopsNY]

Seems to be more of an issue in recent years? The NBA had names like Cousy, West, Hondo, Barry, Pistol Pete, Walton, Bird, Chambers, Stockton, Price, and Mullin. Then the mid to late 90s rolled around and white players weren't making a name for themselves as much.

It might be interest in basketball has waned over time? I know in MLB, black participation has fallen. I'm thinking maybe something similar has happened amongst white Americans with basketball?

[ralph_i_el]

What's crazy is that the tallest Euros don't even hoop...the Dutch. Average dude is 6'3"

I was yachting on the Adriatic and our captain was a young Dutch guy ~6'3" w/length. I asked him if he hooped (because the Greek guys we were drinking with were big Euroleage fans). He laughed and said "Basketball is for Americans." I asked him what he played, and he said "field hockey." I responded "Oh, that's for girls." That was a whole argument.

[90sgoat]

Tall and athletic europeans also play handball.

This guy is 2.15 playing in a sport that is way more physical than basketball.

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/b/handball-players-cedric-sorhaindo-dainis-kristopans-pictured-action-ehf-champions-league-match-dinamo-242868261.jpg

[Norcaliblunt]

More black and white people started mating with each other.

That’s what happened.

The new mixed race players are the old “white American” players.

Dudes like Curry, Klay, Booker, the Ball brothers, Lavine.

They all white boys.

[Soundwave]

White Americans idolize and want to play like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc. but they don't have the athleticism to play that style.

Too many of them are mentally soft too these days, not enough Larry Bird types who grow up poor and not coddled and know what struggle is like. It's hard to have a burning desire to be great if you grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth or are "middle class poor" but still coddled by mommy.

Euro players play the style they grow up in.

[Im Still Ballin]

Even Australia is producing white NBA players: Bogut, Giddey, Furphy, Ingles, Baynes, etc. No superstar, MVP-level yet but Bogut was a no. 1 pick. Only 26 million in the country which is less than the state of Texas.

You need a guy like Christian McCaffrey to have grown up playing and preferring basketball. A shifty, explosive PG with a complete skill set.

[Im Still Ballin]

McCaffrey's combine was insane, particularly the agility and the footwork: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0cQca5f3wk&ab_channel=NFL

Imagine if he focused on basketball. At his height, best case scenario would be something like Stockton or CP3. Young Chris Paul was athletic.

[90sgoat]

White Americans idolize and want to play like Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Iverson, etc. but they don't have the athleticism to play that style.

Too many of them are mentally soft too these days, not enough Larry Bird types who grow up poor and not coddled and know what struggle is like. It's hard to have a burning desire to be great if you grow up with a silver spoon in your mouth or are "middle class poor" but still coddled by mommy.

Euro players play the style they grow up in.

Yeah I see that.

American whites used to play more white, not like Tyler Herro, but that's probably also due to AAU not encouraging team play.