Here's 51 guys that finished top 2 in MVP voting - is Pippen better than any of them [Archive] - Message Board Basketball Forum

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3ba11

01-31-2025, 03:19 PM

MJ
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Shaq
Curry
Jokic
Magic
Lebron
Oscar
Hakeem
Doncic
Embiid
Baylor
Durant
West
Iverson
Pettit
Malone
Barkley
Moses
KG
Dirk
Ewing
Robinson
Mourning
Gervin
Dominique
Barry
Harden
Shai
Giannis
Drexler
Kidd
Kawhi
Cousy
Nash
CP3
Unseld
Reed
Dr. J
Mikan
Westbrook
Cowens
McAdoo
Schayes
Dwight Howard
Bill Walton

SouBeachTalents

01-31-2025, 03:22 PM

Neal Romer

01-31-2025, 03:27 PM

3ba11

01-31-2025, 03:30 PM

He's better than all except the bolded.

If you look up the accolades, stats and dominance of everyone on the list, it's clear that they all carried teams and were sea-changing players... Meanwhile, Pippen isn't anywhere near their caliber and was simply inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade.. He's the only guy in the top 50 that wasn't a dominant player or elite producer.

And I didn't even include other dominators that led teams to titles or the Finals like Isiah, Havlicek, Elvin Hayes, AD, Wade, Tatum, Ewing, and Payton ( more All-defense & All-NBA than Pippen and better scorer/passer/leader/shooter/dog - no comparison)... Or other dominators that had far better statistical peaks than Pippen like McGrady, David Thompson, Grant Hill, Penny, Webber, Jimmy Butler, Stockton, Frazier, or
Lillard

Full Court

01-31-2025, 03:30 PM

I would say Pippen's better than Harden and Westbrook.

Neal Romer

01-31-2025, 03:36 PM

If you look up the accolades, stats and dominance of everyone on the list, it's clear that they all carried teams and were sea-changing players... Meanwhile, Pippen isn't anywhere near their caliber and was simply inflated by the winning spotlight to all-time status and media accolade.. He's the only guy in the top 50 that wasn't a dominant player or elite producer.

And I didn't even include other dominators that led teams to titles or the Finals like Isiah, Havlicek, Elvin Hayes, AD, Wade, Tatum, Ewing, and Payton ( more All-defense & All-NBA than Pippen and better scorer/passer/leader/shooter/dog - no comparison)... Or other dominators that had far better statistical peaks than Pippen like McGrady, David Thompson, Grant Hill, Penny, Webber, Jimmy Butler, Stockton, Frazier, or
Lillard

https://www.icegif.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/icegif-1102.gif

3ba11

01-31-2025, 03:38 PM

I would say Pippen's better than Harden and Westbrook.

So that's maybe 2 guys, and I didn't include other dominators that led teams to titles or the Finals like Isiah, Havlicek, Elvin Hayes, AD, Wade, Tatum, Ewing, and Payton (more All-defense & All-NBA than Pippen and better scorer/passer/leader/shooter/dog - no comparison)...

Or other guys with far better statistical peaks than Pippen like McGrady, David Thompson, Grant Hill, Penny, Webber, Jimmy Butler, Stockton, Frazier, or Lillard.

Then there are dominant players that made All-NBA without needing the winning spotlight of titles like Ralph Sampson, Derrick Coleman, Blake Griffin, Yao Ming, Kemp, Reggie Miller, KAT, Love, Bosh, Schrempf, Larry Johnson, Chris Mullin, KJ. Tim Hardaway. Tom Chambers, Pascal Siakam, Paul Pierce, Spencer Haywood, Mitch Richmond, Melo, Jaylen Brown, Booker, Maravich, Donovan Mitchell, Alex English, Ray Allen, Kyrie, Dantley, Ben Wallace, Chauncey, Bernard King, Derrick Rose, Nate Thurmond, and Tiny.

TLDR: easily 100 guys better than Pippen, which is in line with his PER, win share, OBPM and peak VORP, which are all outside the top 100 all-time.. everyone in the top 50 was a dominant team-carrier, except Pippen (a role player (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvEHQ) according to Dominique)

SouBeachTalents

01-31-2025, 03:44 PM

TLDR: easily 100 guys better than Pippen, which is in line with his PER, win share, OBPM and peak VORP, which are all outside the top 100 all-time.. everyone in the top 50 was a dominant team-carrier, except Pippen (a role player (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/838gMTNvEHQ) according to Dominique)
Those all have LeBron as top 3 all time

3ba11

01-31-2025, 04:33 PM

.
8 of 8 "DOMINANT CHAMPIONS" THAT AVERAGED 1 LOSS PER ROUND OR LESS (4 LOSSES MAX) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION FOR THAT PLAYOFF RUN:

1. 2017 Warriors (16-1).............. DURANT

2. 2001 Lakers (15-1).................. SHAQ

3. 1999 Spurs (15-2)................... DUNCAN

4. 2024 Celtics (16-3)................. TATUM

5. 2023 Nuggets (16-4).............. JOKIC

6. 2007 Spurs (16-4)................... DUNCAN

7. 2002 Lakers (15-4).................. SHAQ

8. 1997 Bulls (15-4)..................... JORDAN

4 0f 4 "DYNASTIES" THAT MOSTLY WON FOR A MATERIAL STRETCH OF 5+ YEARS (I.E. 3 IN 5) REQUIRED BIGS OR JUMPSHOOTERS AT 1ST OPTION:

1. CHICAGO BULLS..................... JORDAN

2. LOS ANGELES LAKERS)........... SHAQ

3. SAN ANTONIO SPURS............ DUNCAN

4. GSW WARRIORS...................... CURRY

^^^ 12 of 12 instances of dynasties or dominant champions (the best basketball) required bigs or jumpshooters at 1st option.

3ba11

01-31-2025, 04:37 PM

Those all have LeBron as top 3 all time

They aren't aware of the information that we have.. We know that the skillset of high-scoring, point guard-style play, aka "ball-domination" entails a bunch of unassisted buckets that reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot up role... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be the 1st option for "the best basketball", such as dynasties and dominant champions, as shown above (0 for 12).

Since ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.

In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general by virtue of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and having low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.. Ultimately, the suboptimal style of ball-dominators underachieves rosters the most, such as Lebron going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt, while the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.

SouBeachTalents

01-31-2025, 04:48 PM

They aren't aware of the information that we have.. We know that the skillset of high-scoring, point guard-style play, aka "ball-domination" entails a bunch of unassisted buckets that reduces teammates' assists while increasing their assisted rate or spot up role... By turning everyone into spot-up shooter, elite roster construction is impossible for high-scoring ball-dominators, so they cannot be the 1st option for "the best basketball", such as dynasties and dominant champions, as shown above (0 for 12).

Since ball-dominators cannot produce the best basketball, they're inferior to the best of other skillsets that can (bigs & jumpshooters), which puts Lebron and all ball-dominators outside of the top 10 all-time.. Specifically, anyone can select who they feel are the best jumpshooters and bigs in history and put them above all ball-dominators like Lebron.. So a hypothetical top 10 could be: MJ, Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Bird, Kobe, Duncan, Shaq, Curry, Jokic, Magic, Lebron, Oscar - that's a top 13 with ball-dominators bringing up the rear.

In addition to their inability to be 1st option for the best basketball (dynasties or dominant champions), high-scoring ball-dominators make it harder to win titles in general by virtue of the aforementioned lowering of teammate assists and having low assist teams, versus the high-assist teams and ball movement associated with the average title team.. Ultimately, the suboptimal style of ball-dominators underachieves rosters the most, such as Lebron going 3-4 with preseason favorites, 4-7 with all-star teammates, 4-6 with Finals teams, 4-5 with 1 or 2 seeds, and 3 losses with homecourt, while the GOAT standard is to never lose in any of these scenarios.
So advanced metrics are legit when discussing Pippen, not legit when discussing LeBron. Got it.

John8204

01-31-2025, 05:37 PM

Mourning
Dominique
Harden
Shai
Drexler
Cousy
Nash
Westbrook
Cowens
McAdoo
Howard

I would personally rank Pippen ahead of those ten guys

StrongLurk

01-31-2025, 06:25 PM

3ba11

01-31-2025, 06:26 PM

So advanced metrics are legit when discussing Pippen, not legit when discussing LeBron. Got it.

The scoring style of the leading-scorer has the biggest impact on the team's style of play and chemistry/fits/teammate performance, while 2nd options are more robotic producers that have little impact on style of play.. So 1st options require more than just looking at stats - we have to consider how their style of play/skillset affects the team's chemistry.

For example, look at Klay - he's a leaf that blows in the direction of the 1st option's wind, whether it's the goat jumpshooter (Curry), or goat ball-dominator (Luka).... Look at Pippen in Houston - he had no impact on style of play - it was Hakeem and Barkley's show.... And on and on and on... A team's style of play and chemistry is primarily determined by the 1st option, so this ability to generate good or bad chemistry must be factored in for a comparison of 1st options, in addition to the raw stats like PER, PPG, WS, etc

of course, Lebron and all high-scoring ball-dominators fail at chemistry and have the worst chemistry of all-time due to their high-scoring ball-dominant skillset.. So despite their gaudy stats, all ball-dominators are outside of the top 10 all-time because of the deficit in chemistry/winning that their skillset has.

Kblaze8855

01-31-2025, 06:45 PM

11ish he’s either better than or the pick depends on the team situation.

Kblaze8855

01-31-2025, 06:49 PM

I feel bad for the elderly folks who end up sharing space with OP when he's in a retirement home in 30-40 years. Or even worse, imagine being in hospice care and hearing OP's delusional rambles about Pippen 24/7.

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg

Phoenix

01-31-2025, 07:07 PM

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg

:roll::roll:

RRR3

01-31-2025, 07:37 PM

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg
:roll: :roll: :roll:

3ba11

01-31-2025, 08:35 PM

Mourning
Dominique
Harden
Shai
Drexler
Cousy
Nash
Westbrook
Cowens
McAdoo
Howard

I would personally rank Pippen ahead of those ten guys

How is Pippen better than Dwight Howard or Mourning, who are better and more dominant on both ends of the floor?

And Dominique was #2 in MVP to Bird in 86', which is like winning the award, and he also built a lottery team to consistent 50-57-win teams from 86-89' despite no help - this included that epic 7-game war with Bird's Celtics in 88'... Dominique alongside Jordan easily 5-peats from 86-90' and adds more after that... Otoh, Pippen isn't a big enough producer to build a contender from scratch, aka franchise player - if he's a team's biggest producer, then the team lacks sufficient talent, which is the reason the 3-peat Bulls fell so quickly to barely .500 in 95'.

And it seems that you're unfamiliar with the accolades of Cousy, Cowens and McAdoo - there's no way Pippen is anywhere near them... Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

SouBeachTalents

01-31-2025, 08:50 PM

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg
:oldlol:

John8204

01-31-2025, 09:39 PM

How is Pippen better than Dwight Howard or Mourning, who are better and more dominant on both ends of the floor?

And Dominique was #2 in MVP to Bird in 86', which is like winning the award, and he also built a lottery team to consistent 50-57-win teams from 86-89' despite no help - this included that epic 7-game war with Bird's Celtics in 88'... Dominique alongside Jordan easily 5-peats from 86-90' and adds more after that... Otoh, Pippen isn't a big enough producer to build a contender from scratch, aka franchise player - if he's a team's biggest producer, then the team lacks sufficient talent, which is the reason the 3-peat Bulls fell so quickly to barely .500 in 95'.

And it seems that you're unfamiliar with the accolades of Cousy, Cowens and McAdoo - there's no way Pippen is anywhere near them... Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade.

Howard and Zo didn't even make the 75 cut...both really only had like 5 seasons of health.

Also if it wasn't for crooked officiating Pippen would have had 7 rings with two teams.

Cowens and Cousy getting MVP's were ridiculous Paul Arizin and Tiny Archibald (both of whom I rank ahead of Pippen)

3ba11

01-31-2025, 10:44 PM

Howard and Zo didn't even make the 75 cut...

Zo and Dwight were 2 of the highly-debated omissions, so they're in that grey area and easily better than guys in the bottom quartile of the top 75 like Melo, Lillard, Pippen and others... Many people forget that the Orlando Magic were missing their all-star point guard Jameer Nelson in the 09' ECF.. Accordingly, Dwight led an injured 1-star team and +700 underdog over Lebron's 6th-year organic juggernaut and league favorite - this historic victory and carry-job to the Finals required complete dominance on both ends of the floor that Pippen wasn't capable of.

Pippen's 21.7 on 40% lost to Ewing, so I'm quite certain that it loses to Lebron because it lacks the dominance of that Dwight used to win, and the clutch - Dwight completely took over the critical Game 4 OT that swung the series, while Pippen would never do that.. New fans can't seem to understand what 90's fans knew as a standard, which was that Pippen was a dunker, defender, and non-scorer system player, similar to Draymond, but the soft and beta version.. Any idea that he's as good as top franchise players is absurd and was absurd back then.. Tthe numbers tell the story.

Also if it wasn't for crooked officiating Pippen would have had 7 rings with two teams.

Actually, it was literally because Kobe took over on the last 3 possessions against Pippen in Game 7 of the 00' WCF:

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1Hc5Bub6MQM

Pippen can't make the Finals no matter what, even with a 17 point lead in the 4th of Game 7.. this contrasts with Lebron's teammates like Kyrie, Wade and Love that made the Finals without him.

Axe

01-31-2025, 11:06 PM

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg
:lol

ShawkFactory

01-31-2025, 11:13 PM

On the other hand the facility would save so much on defibrillators. He won’t die while Pippen is still being respected

https://www.hostpic.org/images/2502010418420319.jpeg

Not bad :applause:

3ba11

02-01-2025, 02:55 PM

He's better than the bolded.

The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, and Porter averaged 26/4/8 with 53% three-point shooting on 6 attempts in the 92' WCF... Every notable sidekick in the 90's had this type of dominant capability that carried their team to the conference finals or Finals, such as Stockton dominating the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, or KJ, Worthy and Payton/Kemp reaching dominant levels that carried their team to the conference finals or Finals.. Otoh, Pippen had low peak capability as a transition player/dunker, so he wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq, and lacked the dominant ability to take a team to the conference finals or Finals like other sidekicks did.... The historical and statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and undeserved media accolade.. Many winning sidekicks don't get All-NBA until they win titles first, such as Pippen, Klay, Pau, Dumars, Parker, Ginobili and even Worthy... In addition to Pippen's low peak capability and inflation from the winning spotlight, he only averaged 5 assists for Jordan, while many 1st options enjoyed all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists, such as Stockton, Payton, Hardaway or KJ... Accordingly, among 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency/spacing, clutch and peak scoring ability (not on scouting reports according to Shaq).

Furthermore, Terry Porter was 9th for MVP in 91' and Dumars was All-NBA, while Pippen wasn't even an all-star... Pippen didn't make any of the All-NBA teams that year, which would put him outside the top 15, and he didn't make the all-star game either, which puts him even further back... The aforementioned Terry Porter and Dumars were considered better than Pippen during that season, along with Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Isiah, Stockton, KJ, Dumars, Dominique, Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Reggie Miller, Drexler, Worthy, Daughtery, Tarpley, Bernard King and several others... History shows that Pippen hadn't passed guys like Otis Thorpe or Reggie Lewis in many people's minds, which is why the Bulls weren't favored heading into the 1991 season (4th in preseason odds).

Finally, Pippen nearly caused massive upset loss in the 2nd Round of the 92' Playoffs by getting dominated by X-Man, while also averaging 15 on 33% in the 93' 1st Round to get dominated by Dominique (30 on 44%).. He also shot 0% on threes and 59% from the FT line in the 93' Finals (47% true shooting), which forced MJ to average 41 ppg.. Infact, the 93' Playoffs saw Pippen produce the lowest combination of PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP and TS of any winning sidekick since the 3-point line was instituted in 1980 - it was atrocious efficiency and advanced stats.... So Pippen's peak of 20 ppg from 91-93' is fraught with bed-wettings and it's the lowest peak capability in the playoffs of any notable 90's sidekick - he was mostly a dunker and transition player that couldn't be a "1b" like other sidekicks.. Everyone in history enjoyed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, while Pippen forced Jordan to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load), which is unique to Jordan.. Specifically, everyone in history had teammates lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series.. Again, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he was below league-average true shooting for basically every year of his playoff career, and there are no dominant series where he "took over", so his entire status is based on a ring count that he was carried to.

SouBeachTalents

02-01-2025, 03:11 PM

The worst sidekick that Jordan faced in the Finals was Terry Porter, and Porter averaged 26/4/8 with 53% three-point shooting on 6 attempts in the 92' WCF... Every notable sidekick in the 90's had this type of dominant capability that carried their team to the conference finals or Finals, such as Stockton dominating the 97' WCF to carry the Jazz to the Finals, or KJ, Worthy and Payton/Kemp reaching dominant levels that carried their team to the conference finals or Finals.. Otoh, Pippen had low peak capability as a transition player/dunker, so he wasn't on scouting reports according to Shaq, and lacked the dominant ability to take a team to the conference finals or Finals like other sidekicks did.... The historical and statistical record shows that Pippen never played above a Larry Nance or Iguodala level, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and undeserved media accolade.. Many winning sidekicks don't get All-NBA until they win titles first, such as Pippen, Klay, Pau, Dumars, Parker, Ginobili and even Worthy... In addition to Pippen's low peak capability and inflation from the winning spotlight, he only averaged 5 assists for Jordan, while many 1st options enjoyed all-time floor generals at sidekick that averaged 10 assists, such as Stockton, Payton, Hardaway or KJ... Accordingly, among 90's sidekicks, Pippen had the worst passing, efficiency/spacing, clutch and peak scoring ability (not on scouting reports according to Shaq).

Furthermore, Terry Porter was 9th for MVP in 91' and Dumars was All-NBA, while Pippen wasn't even an all-star... Pippen didn't make any of the All-NBA teams that year, which would put him outside the top 15, and he didn't make the all-star game either, which puts him even further back... The aforementioned Terry Porter and Dumars were considered better than Pippen during that season, along with Magic, Bird, Hakeem, Ewing, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Isiah, Stockton, KJ, Dumars, Dominique, Chris Mullin, Tim Hardaway, Reggie Miller, Drexler, Worthy, Daughtery, Tarpley, Bernard King and several others... History shows that Pippen hadn't passed guys like Otis Thorpe or Reggie Lewis in many people's minds, which is why the Bulls weren't favored heading into the 1991 season (4th in preseason odds).

Finally, Pippen nearly caused massive upset loss in the 2nd Round of the 92' Playoffs by getting dominated by X-Man, while also averaging 15 on 33% in the 93' 1st Round to get dominated by Dominique (30 on 44%).. He also shot 0% on threes and 59% from the FT line in the 93' Finals (47% true shooting), which forced MJ to average 41 ppg.. Infact, the 93' Playoffs saw Pippen produce the lowest combination of PER, BPM, WS/48, VORP and TS of any winning sidekick since the 3-point line was instituted in 1980 - it was atrocious efficiency and advanced stats.... So Pippen's peak of 20 ppg from 91-93' is fraught with bed-wettings and it's the lowest peak capability in the playoffs of any notable 90's sidekick - he was mostly a dunker and transition player that couldn't be a "1b" like other sidekicks.. Everyone in history enjoyed equal-scoring partners to attract equal defensive attention, while Pippen forced Jordan to defeat max defensive attention (carry the scoring load), which is unique to Jordan.. Specifically, everyone in history had teammates lead the scoring for entire playoff runs, while Jordan led Pippen by 10-30 ppg in every series.. Again, Pippen never played above a Larry Nance caliber, but the winning spotlight inflated him to all-time status and media accolade - he was below league-average true shooting for basically every year of his playoff career, and there are no dominant series where he "took over", so his entire status is based on a ring count that he was carried to.
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