Why do we act like Doncic is a generational talent?

[Walk on Water]

He is not.

Does Doncic play both ends of the floor? Does he stay in shape? Right now Jokic, Giannis and SGA are better than Doncic. Wemby is probably better all around. Sure, Doncic is a great talent. But people are way overreacting over a ball dominant guy who does not play any defense. Basketball is played on both ends, plus being able to move in the right spots without the ball is very important.

Maybe Doncic has style and is marketable? But he ain't no Jokic. I think Davis is probably a better all around fit than Doncic anyway. And then you have to worry about his conditioning and motivation. Dallas must have traded him for a reason. Let's wait and see instead of rush to judge.

[Carbine]

I think if you went through this person's post history it would be obvious he is a agenda driven with an Anti Luka angle.

Not generational? For players his age or younger he has accomplished more than all of them. He passes the eye test too. He's basically a guard version of Joker.

[Walk on Water]

I think if you went through this person's post history it would be obvious he is a agenda driven with an Anti Luka angle.

Not generational? For players his age or younger he has accomplished more than all of them. He passes the eye test too. He's basically a guard version of Joker.


Does he really pass the eye test? I think he looks kinda slow, awkward and unconditioned. A lot of his moves would have been illegal back in the day, all those extra steps.

[jayfan]

He is not.

Does Doncic play both ends of the floor? Does he stay in shape? Right now Jokic, Giannis and SGA are better than Doncic. Wemby is probably better all around. Sure, Doncic is a great talent. But people are way overreacting over a ball dominant guy who does not play any defense. Basketball is played on both ends, plus being able to move in the right spots without the ball is very important.

Maybe Doncic has style and is marketable? But he ain't no Jokic. I think Davis is probably a better all around fit than Doncic anyway. And then you have to worry about his conditioning and motivation. Dallas must have traded him for a reason. Let's wait and see instead of rush to judge.

You are misusing/misunderstanding the word talent.

A player can be a generational talent without being the best or most complete player. And Luka is absolutely that.


.

[Phoenix]

Magic couldn't guard a lamp-post. I think most would call him a generational talent.

[ILLsmak]

He is not.

Does Doncic play both ends of the floor? Does he stay in shape? Right now Jokic, Giannis and SGA are better than Doncic. Wemby is probably better all around. Sure, Doncic is a great talent. But people are way overreacting over a ball dominant guy who does not play any defense. Basketball is played on both ends, plus being able to move in the right spots without the ball is very important.

Maybe Doncic has style and is marketable? But he ain't no Jokic. I think Davis is probably a better all around fit than Doncic anyway. And then you have to worry about his conditioning and motivation. Dallas must have traded him for a reason. Let's wait and see instead of rush to judge.

He is generational in this nba. Needs a ring. Excuses or not they got slopped by Bos.

-Smak

[John8204]

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Luka Dončić 28.65

https://media3.giphy.com/media/ccRN9H1zx8KSgUPgyD/200.gif?cid=6c09b952xx1ei2xyonzb05jh8g8anv0x68645a y4jn5yqmu6&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.gif&ct=g

[Phoenix]

1. Michael Jordan* 30.12
2. Wilt Chamberlain* 30.07
3. Luka Dončić 28.65

https://media3.giphy.com/media/ccRN9H1zx8KSgUPgyD/200.gif?cid=6c09b952xx1ei2xyonzb05jh8g8anv0x68645a y4jn5yqmu6&ep=v1_gifs_search&rid=200.gif&ct=g

And 2nd in career playoff PPG.

[tpols]

Magic couldn't guard a lamp-post. I think most would call him a generational talent.

Magics teams sported some of the most efficient offenses of all time with top assist ranks, while the Mavericks were fairly mediocre in that regard.

In their furthest runs Dallas had the 15th ranked offense in 2022 and the 10th ranked offense in 2024. Which is... mediocre. Lukas style doesn't generate elite offense. He's just a big balls player in the playoffs and can hero ball a couple series but hard to do that for 4 in a row.

Overall he's a superstar but not generational. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq and Lebron types are generational. Luka is a run of the mill superstar like Steve Nash. Although Nash led waaay better offenses because like Magic he was pass first player. Luka is shoot first.

[GOBB]

Ben Simmons was once considered a generational talent until he wasn’t. I think the confusion is the term generational not clearly being defined. Generational talent? Generational prospect? Generational player? Generational athlete? Magic was a generational talent because his physical attributes + skill set was something the game hasn’t seen before. This is before he became to dominate. Curry was never considered a generational talent but he became a generational player. Same with Giannis. Shaq, Bron, MJ, Wilt.

When the whole generational arguments get floated around there’s never been a clear definition of what that truly is. Which is why no one can agree or see it the same. Do we separate it from talent vs player? Are they the same? I don’t know. And is Luka generational this early in his career? Is Jokic? I’ve seen quite a few arguments on who is and isn’t. And one thing is clear. Each side definition of it isn’t the same. Theres players who are clear cut generational like Magic, Bron, Shaq, Wilt. Even with skillset and physicals it can get tricky. Was M.Bogues generational being 5’3 with his skill set and what he did in the NBA?

Just throwing questions out there.

[Phoenix]

Magics teams sported some of the most efficient offenses of all time with top assist ranks, while the Mavericks were fairly mediocre in that regard.

In their furthest runs Dallas had the 15th ranked offense in 2022 and the 10th ranked offense in 2024. Which is... mediocre. Lukas style doesn't generate elite offense. He's just a big balls player in the playoffs and can hero ball a couple series but hard to do that for 4 in a row.

Overall he's a superstar but not generational. Jordan and Kobe and Shaq and Lebron types are generational. Luka is a run of the mill superstar like Steve Nash. Although Nash led waaay better offenses because like Magic he was pass first player. Luka is shoot first.

Luka should be shoot first compared to Magic and Nash, because he's a better scorer than both. And with that said, he's closer as a passer to those guys than they are to him as a scorer. Hell Nash with Amare, Marion, Joe Johnson had more firepower on those Suns offenses than Luka has ever had. Magic never won a title where he had to carry the scoring load, it was Kareem for the first half of the 80s and the 2nd half Worthy was the leading playoff scorer in 87 and 88, and Byron Scott was right there with him as well. Nash never got to the finals. The moment you give Luka a 'great' 2nd option offensively( Kyrie) and he's in the finals, Give him a really good 2nd option( Brunson), and he's in the conference finals. He could only dream of having access to the offensive talent those 80s Lakers had to generate elite offenses, year in, year out. Which is not to say that Magic wasn't historically great in co-coordinating it all, but come on. That's not an apples to apples comparison.

Luka hasn't led the Mavericks to elite offense every year like Magic did, but nobody is calling Luka the same level of floor general. The Mavs did have the best offensive ratings in 2020,6th in 2023, and 10th in 2024. Outside of 2022 and his rookie year, Luka has led top 10 offenses every year of his career regardless of how deep his playoff runs were in any given season. There's been no year during his tenure where the Mavs underachieved. In fact nobody had them picked for deep runs in 2022 or 2024, so if anything the Mavs have overachieved in those instances.

[tpols]

Magic was leading super elite offenses when Kareem was retired. Nash led the #1 offense without Marion or Joe Johnson in 2010 and they went deep in the playoffs. Nash and Magic led #1 offenses regardless of personel. That's no excuse.

Luka has had a shit ton of fire power on his teams. Brunson is a literal MVP candidate... Porzingis is a monster talent... Kyrie as well offensively especially scoring and shooting. Luka has had plenty of help.

Its just really hard to lead a top ranked offense when you try to 1v5 everybody. It lowers team ceiling.

[Carbine]

If you're going to use otrg as a barometer then you must give credit to Luka because his team set the then record for it back a few years.

You also have to give Tatum a massive amount of credit. His team holds the record now and won the title in the same year.

You can't talk about his team being stacked either because you're not using that argument against Nash and his Suns team. Or Magic and his beyond stacked teams.

A run of the mill superstars doesn't lead his team to the WCF and then make a finals before the age of 26 with his playoff resume. Neither season his team was projected to be a top ten team by the way. Beating expectations by a considerable amount.

[highwhey]

OP sucks cawk for a living

[tpols]

If you're going to use otrg as a barometer then you must give credit to Luka because his team set the then record for it back a few years.

You also have to give Tatum a massive amount of credit. His team holds the record now and won the title in the same year.

You can't talk about his team being stacked either because you're not using that argument against Nash and his Suns team. Or Magic and his beyond stacked teams.

A run of the mill superstars doesn't lead his team to the WCF and then make a finals before the age of 26 with his playoff resume. Neither season his team was projected to be a top ten team by the way. Beating expectations by a considerable amount.

This post takes dumbest of the day considering Tatum plays nothing like Luka, Magic, or Nash and is in no way shape or form responsible for being floor general for the teams ball movement. Nice try though.

[Phoenix]

Magic was leading super elite offenses when Kareem was retired. Nash led the #1 offense without Marion or Joe Johnson in 2010 and they went deep in the playoffs. That's no excuse.

Luka has had a shit ton of fire power on his teams. Brunson is a literal MVP candidate... Porzingis is a monster talent... Kyrie as well offensively especially scoring and shooting. Luka has had plenty of help.

Its just really hard to lead a top ranked offense when you try to 1v5 everybody. It lowers team ceiling.

When the Mavs were the number one offense in 2020, the 'monster talent' Porzingis as 2nd option averaged 20ppg on 42% shooting. That is horrific by any standard, let alone a 7'3 guy. Would you like to review your definition of 'monster talent' there? Not quite 'blistering' as you like to say. Luka has never played with the talent of the 80s Lakers, nor the Nash Suns of the mid 2000s. The 2010 Suns didn't have Marion or Johnson, but still had Amare and Jason Richardson. Amare was all-nba 2nd team that year. That's at least equal to the 2020 Mavs in firepower if not better...both #1 ranked offenses. :confusedshrug: The difference is, Luka did it while also dropping 29ppg on 59%TS, in his 2nd year.

Brunson wasn't an MVP candidate in 2022. He wasn't even an all-star that year. But you already knew that. That's like people saying 'KD had Harden in OKC' as if that version of Harden was the prime version we saw on the Rockets.

[tpols]

Brunson was on the MVP ladder the very next year in 2023 with the Knicks. He finished top 5 MVP in 2024. Like... what? Do you think he just magically got way better? Or did he have more opportunity not having to share the ball with an individual who has the highest recorded time of dribble possession of all time?

You keep bringing up these stacked Suns and Lakers teams as reasons Magic and Nash led year after year #1 ranked offenses but they did it without a bunch of the names you rattled off. Magic did it without Kareem. Nash beat Kobe without Amare for God's sake and with Boris Diaw in his place.

It doesn't mean Nash and Magic are >>> Luka. It just means their style statistically and factually results in better offenses. Basketball is a team game and if you're going to dribble spam and also be shoot first type player it's pretty much impossible to reach #1 ranked offense.

[Carbine]

Pretty much impossible yet he literally did it in 2020.

Yikes. Time to reboot the trolling microchip

[tpols]

Dallas with Luka has had offensive ranks of 9, 15, 6 and 10 since then. Which is mid for playoff team.

Nash and Magic were leading 1 and 2 ranks every single year with the Suns and Lakers. With or without whoever was on the team you could credit for it otherwise.

[Phoenix]

Brunson was on the MVP ladder the very next year in 2023 with the Knicks. He finished top 5 MVP in 2024. Like... what? Do you think he just magically got way better? Or did he have more opportunity not having to share the ball with an individual who has the highest recorded time of dribble possession of all time?

You keep bringing up these stacked Suns and Lakers teams as reasons Magic and Nash led year after year #1 ranked offenses but they did it without a bunch of the names you rattled off. Magic did it without Kareem. Nash beat Kobe without Amare for God's sake and with Boris Diaw in his place.

It doesn't mean Nash and Magic are >>> Luka. It just means their style statistically and factually results in better offenses. Basketball is a team game and if you're going to dribble spam and also be shoot first type player it's pretty much impossible to reach #1 ranked offense.

So? Was Scottie Pippen an MVP candidate in 1990 because he was one in 94? Scottie averaged 7ppg as a rookie and by year 4 he averaged 16. The first year without MJ he's 3rd in MVP. Brunson averaged 9ppg as a rookie and 16ppg his 4th year. The next year without Luka he's on the MVP ladder(12th). It's literally the same shit.

And to be clear, because you have to be expressly so on forums like this where I can't tell if people like to play dense or really are, I'm not equating Luka with MJ. I'm merely saying that Brunson was growing as a player WITH Luka and then took the next step once he left Dallas. It's not the knock on Luka you're trying to portray it as. Even then, Brunson wasn't a legit MVP candidate until last year. Getting on the MVP ladder at 12th, there's alot of players whom people wouldn't deem an MVP did that. Hell, Dennis Rodman has been on the MVP ladder. Draymond Green has been on the MVP ladder. Nobody looks at those guys as 'MVP' players by the standards of how we judge the term. Even though Brunson was on the ladder in 2023, he was neither an All-star or All-NBA that year. That says more than being 12th on the MVP ladder. Just as a fun factoid, his own teammate Randle made both the all-star and all-nba that year.

The same thing happened with Harden. He leaves OKC and immediately becomes an MVP candidate once he gets his own team. Does that mean he was one back in 2011 when he was coming off the bench? Does that make KD look worse? Of course not. And to answer your question, yes a player can get way better from year to year. Hell, Kobe made a massive leap from 2000 to 2001. We have examples of this.

I keep bringing up those teams because Magic and Nash had access to more offensive talent for most of their primes. It doesn't matter if they managed to lead #1 ranked offenses in the years they were 'less' stacked, because the Mavs weren't stacked in 2020 when they were 1st. They weren't stacked in 2023 when they were 6th. Even by the time Nash and Magic were leading #1 offense without the HOF talent, they were more experienced than Luka is. Nash had been in the league for 13-14 years by 2010. Magic had been in the league a decade when Kareem retired. Luka was able to lead the Mavs to the top ranked offense with KP doing 20 on 42%. We can split the hairs all day, it's not the same.

Really, it doesn't matter if Magic in general led better offenses or had a style more conducive to team success. Its whether Luka warrants the tag of being generational. Both of these things can be true. The original point I responded to when I brought up Magic was in response to someone saying Luka can't be generational due to his lack of defense. I replied basically saying that Magic was barely a defender but that didn't stop him from being a generational talent. It didn't require a nitpick of how they led their respective offenses because that wasn't the question nor the sole criteria for qualifying the term 'generational'.

[ShawkFactory]

Brunson was on the MVP ladder the very next year in 2023 with the Knicks. He finished top 5 MVP in 2024. Like... what? Do you think he just magically got way better? Or did he have more opportunity not having to share the ball with an individual who has the highest recorded time of dribble possession of all time?

You keep bringing up these stacked Suns and Lakers teams as reasons Magic and Nash led year after year #1 ranked offenses but they did it without a bunch of the names you rattled off. Magic did it without Kareem. Nash beat Kobe without Amare for God's sake and with Boris Diaw in his place.

It doesn't mean Nash and Magic are >>> Luka. It just means their style statistically and factually results in better offenses. Basketball is a team game and if you're going to dribble spam and also be shoot first type player it's pretty much impossible to reach #1 ranked offense.

That one really got me :lol

[Phoenix]

Ben Simmons was once considered a generational talent until he wasn’t. I think the confusion is the term generational not clearly being defined. Generational talent? Generational prospect? Generational player? Generational athlete? Magic was a generational talent because his physical attributes + skill set was something the game hasn’t seen before. This is before he became to dominate. Curry was never considered a generational talent but he became a generational player. Same with Giannis. Shaq, Bron, MJ, Wilt.

When the whole generational arguments get floated around there’s never been a clear definition of what that truly is. Which is why no one can agree or see it the same. Do we separate it from talent vs player? Are they the same? I don’t know. And is Luka generational this early in his career? Is Jokic? I’ve seen quite a few arguments on who is and isn’t. And one thing is clear. Each side definition of it isn’t the same. Theres players who are clear cut generational like Magic, Bron, Shaq, Wilt. Even with skillset and physicals it can get tricky. Was M.Bogues generational being 5’3 with his skill set and what he did in the NBA?

Just throwing questions out there.

These are great questions. I would put it to you this way...guys like Shaq, Lebron, MJ, Magic, Wilt had physical gifts that couldn't be duplicated on top of talent. Same for someone like Wemby. Luka is dropping 29/9/8 for his career without any physical advantages compared to his peers. So the only thing he has to dominate is skill/IQ. Generational? You decide.

[tpols]

I replied basically saying that Magic was barely a defender but that didn't stop him from being a generational talent. It didn't require a nitpick of how they led their respective offenses because that wasn't the question nor the sole criteria for qualifying the term 'generational'.


Well then I guess we'll see if Luka ends up stacking up to Magic. He's got a long way of winning to go.

Generational is a very strong word.

[Phoenix]

Well then I guess we'll see if Luka ends up stacking up to Magic. He's got a long way of winning to go.

Generational is a very strong word.

Of course he does, but Magic is a top 5-8 GOAT in the history of basketball. 99% of anyone who's ever played doesn't stack up to him but that doesn't mean the other player in their own right can't be generational. As GOBB said, the term is subjective as hell anyway.

[Duffy Pratt]

These are great questions. I would put it to you this way...guys like Shaq, Lebron, MJ, Magic, Wilt had physical gifts that couldn't be duplicated on top of talent. Same for someone like Wemby. Luka is dropping 29/9/8 for his career without any physical advantages compared to his peers. So the only thing he has to dominate is skill/IQ. Generational? You decide.

Luka is bigger than almost every guard, and can back any of them down. Slow as he is for a guard, he will still blow by almost any forward who is bigger than him (he’s bigger than most small forwards now, too). That makes him basically impossible to guard without doubling. And when you double, he is skilled enough to throw the right pass. So you are partially correct, but it’s not just his skill and IQ. Like Magic, his sheer size at his position makes him a problem (though with very different style).

[Phoenix]

Luka is bigger than almost every guard, and can back any of them down. Slow as he is for a guard, he will still blow by almost any forward who is bigger than him (he’s bigger than most small forwards now, too). That makes him basically impossible to guard without doubling. And when you double, he is skilled enough to throw the right pass. So you are partially correct, but it’s not just his skill and IQ. Like Magic, his sheer size at his position makes him a problem (though with very different style).

Partly true, but relative to the era Luka doesn't have extreme advantages. Magic was a 6'8 PG in a league of mostly 6'0-6'1 PGs. Many PGs of today in many cases are both bigger and more athletic so he doesn't enjoy the same edge Magic did. The players back in the 80s must have looked like a deer in highlights trying to deal with Magic's size. He was unique until guys like Scottie, Steve Smith, Grant Hill, Penny came along, with Lebron being the evolution of that. Today, while they can still present problems a bigger PG is no longer the unicorn that Magic was.

Plus, in alot of cases it's not the team PG defending him solely, it's the most capable wing defender. Remember those playoff series vs Clippers back in 2020 and 2021? Kawhi and Paul George were his main defenders, and he enjoys no physical edge over either. At 6'7 230( when he's in relative shape), that's not bigger than most small forwards at all. Or by bigger do you mean weight?

He uses his size advantageously in certain situations( which pretty much any player worth his salt does, leverage whatever advantage they can whenever they can), but skill and IQ are much, much bigger reasons for his success. We're in a position-less era anyways with so many switching defense schemes that Luka has way less opportunity to use his size than Magic did.

[999Guy]

Luka is bigger than almost every guard, and can back any of them down. Slow as he is for a guard, he will still blow by almost any forward who is bigger than him (he’s bigger than most small forwards now, too). That makes him basically impossible to guard without doubling. And when you double, he is skilled enough to throw the right pass. So you are partially correct, but it’s not just his skill and IQ. Like Magic, his sheer size at his position makes him a problem (though with very different style).

I was just about to post this. He is way more physically dominant than Curry or Kobe, two proclaimed generational guys, ever were.

And his speed and vertical is generally underrated. He can also go max speed with the ball and maintain body control better than guys who are faster in the first place. Like Ja Morant is much faster but he can lose control easier, so he actually has to slow down to being closer to Luka speed than you'd think to actually gain and maintain an advantage.

Kyrie Irving is like the only other guy in the league who can actually sprint and keep ball and body control. As far as a defender is concerned, Luka is as fast as anybody, because his brakes and body control are god tier.

People are trying to be contrarian because the response to this trade is so overwhelming, but this trade really is that bad, and Luka really is that good. The game is ridiculously easy for this guy. This guy got first place MVP votes at age 20. He is absolutely absurd and he's probably not even peaked yet. He screws around a lot out there and still did 33/10/10 efficiently while playing decent defense.

His last two years, all the impact metrics rate his defense as decent to good. He's better than people even think.

[Phoenix]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc3Mfeuakq0&ab_channel=NextLevelHoops

As an offensive player, Luka has all-time great IQ. It's not physical superiority( except in cases where a smaller defender is caught on him and you either roll with it or he makes you pay with his passing), you're predominantly seeing there as much as touch, timing, footwork and being two steps ahead of the defender. His threat as a scorer and passer means you have to honor every pump, headfake, shake and shimmy because either a shot or a pass can materialize out of it. He's not blazing past defenders Allen Iverson style off the dribble, jumping over you MJ/Vince style or having guys bounce off him like Shaq, rather he is very good with angles, change of pace, and using the defenders momentum against them. He makes a move and usually anticipates what you're going to do in response, and he's already got his response to your response mapped out. That to me is where I see the Bird comparison, he's playing chess with guys playing checkers.

[Duffy Pratt]

Partly true, but relative to the era Luka doesn't have extreme advantages. Magic was a 6'8 PG in a league of mostly 6'0-6'1 PGs. Many PGs of today in many cases are both bigger and more athletic so he doesn't enjoy the same edge Magic did. The players back in the 80s must have looked like a deer in highlights trying to deal with Magic's size. He was unique until guys like Scottie, Steve Smith, Grant Hill, Penny came along, with Lebron being the evolution of that. Today, while they can still present problems a bigger PG is no longer the unicorn that Magic was.

Plus, in alot of cases it's not the team PG defending him solely, it's the most capable wing defender. Remember those playoff series vs Clippers back in 2020 and 2021? Kawhi and Paul George were his main defenders, and he enjoys no physical edge over either. At 6'7 230( when he's in relative shape), that's not bigger than most small forwards at all. Or by bigger do you mean weight?

He uses his size advantageously in certain situations( which pretty much any player worth his salt does, leverage whatever advantage they can whenever they can), but skill and IQ are much, much bigger reasons for his success. We're in a position-less era anyways with so many switching defense schemes that Luka has way less opportunity to use his size than Magic did.

In 1985, aside from Magic, the starting point guard listed heights were: 6’ - 1, 6’1” - 6 , 6’2” - 3, 6’3” - 5, 6’4” -5, 6’5” 2.

It’s simply not true that most point guards were 6’ or 6’1”. It’s not even close. That said, Magic still had a huge advantage over these guys.

[Phoenix]

In 1985, aside from Magic, the starting point guard listed heights were: 6’ - 1, 6’1” - 6 , 6’2” - 3, 6’3” - 5, 6’4” -5, 6’5” 2.

It’s simply not true that most point guards were 6’ or 6’1”. It’s not even close. That said, Magic still had a huge advantage over these guys.

I don't know how to translate that first line, but I didn't say the league was exclusively 6'0 PGs, I said mostly. Or if you prefer, most of the other elite PGs. But let's just look at the names of some of Magics contemporaries from the era:

Stockton 6'1
Isiah 6'1
Kevin Johnson 6'1
Mark Price 6'0
Mo Cheeks 6'1
Tim Hardaway 6'0
Mark Jackson 6'1

Yes you have your 6'3- 6'4 guys like Dennis Johnson, Terry Porter, Fat Lever, Derek Harper etc. Even if we want to 'we can do this all day' regarding heights, defenses back then often put Magic in position to leverage his size. He didn't have to worry about the 5 second back to the basket rule( AKA the Charles Barkley rule) . He could take half a possession backing a ( usually) smaller defender down until a play manifested itself, and make passes over the defense 99% of the time. If he got into deep post position, the defender was simply at his mercy. Any players who would have been better capable of matching him physically would have been small forwards whose first defensive priority would have been their positional counterpart most of the time. So Magic's era allowed him to use his size in ways Luka can't ( which based on your last sentence you seem to agree with anyway, so I'm not sure where the disagreement is). He simply was more a mismatch in his era than Luka is in his. Not that Luka doesn't from time to time enjoy a physical edge. It's just not the primary factor for how good he is offensively, or at the level guys like Magic, Lebron, Shaq, MJ etc enjoyed obvious superior gifts.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why did so many people bite on this thread