Jokic or SGA for MVP?

[iamgine]

I think both are deserving this season. Who do you think will get it?

[SouBeachTalents]

SGA will likely get it due to voter fatigue and finishing with the best record in the league, but there's no doubt in my mind that Jokic is the more deserving player. He's having literally one of the greatest seasons in NBA history, and if you removed each player from their team, absolutely nobody believes the Thunder would be more negatively impacted than the Nuggets.

It's not even a knock on SGA, who's having an MVP worthy season, but Jokic is by a substantial margin the best & most valuable player in the league, and after 3 MVP seasons is somehow having his best.

[Im Still Ballin]

It's very close for me. I'll say Jokic because OKC is succeeding more so off the back of its defense whereas it's the offense for Denver:

DEN: +6.4 rORtg; +0.8 rDRtg; +5.6 rNet
OKC: +4.5 rORtg; -9.0 rDRtg (!!!) +13.5 rNet

Defense is more of a team effort whereas a single player can impact offense to a greater degree. Shai accounts for more of the OKC offense than any other player on the team but not as much as Jokic does for Denver. And OKC scores a lot of its points from turnovers on defense. Shai's a part of that but just one cog in the defensive system.

[Phoenix]

I think Jokic can get it if the Nuggets finish with the 2nd seed. If they finish 3rd behind the Grizz I think they give it to SGA. The MVP award is often about narrative and it does feel like the media wants to give it to SGA( not to say he isn't deserving, to be clear), but Jokic is having a better year than any of his prior MVP seasons. Voter fatigue could play into it but bear in mind Lebron won four in five seasons ( 09,10,12,13) so its not out of the realm of possibility. It would be more interesting to see if Jokic gets a 5th MVP. When you look at the current landscape of top players, Giannis and Jokic are like the two incumbents. You have to assume that SGA is going to get one eventually if not this year, Luka seems like he will put it all together at some point, and you have to figure Wemby will be in the picture soon.

[Manny98]

Jokic is having a top 3 regular season of all time next to 16 Curry & 13 LeBron

[3ba11]

SGA this year... Jokic has a little more help, even with Chet back... Murray/Braun/Westbrook are 3 pretty good guards that can hang with or even outplay SGA/Williams, while Jokic/Porter Jr/Gordon destroy Chet/Hartenstien - barbeque chicken and the tri-tip steak.

[Neal Romer]

SGA will win it for the same reasons Josh Allen won it in the NFL. And Im fine with that.


Also certain players and media have been pushing SGA for it and crowning him since December. Since just a few weeks into the season they were emphatically stating that he should get the award. For the same reasons some of them were doing likewise with Embiid back when he was in the running.

That reason doesnt need to be stated because it's quite obvious. But you already know a segment of voters have adamantly made up their mind for SGA from the very beginning (a la Mark Jackson 'accidentally' not voting Jokic first team) and the remaining people who want to make a sincere judgement will likely be split. So it's almost certain to be for SGA. And again I dont have a problem with it because I really dont care who wins the MVP award nor do I think it legitimately indicates who's 'da real mvp.' If it did Lebron would have like 12 of them. In fact personally I dislike MVP awards in team sports in general, altho Im more at peace with an MVP for the entire regular season marathon. But selecting individuals for MVP as teams are celebrating playoff achievements earned together? Makes me cringe hard as ****. The 'Finals MVP' and these other new ones are so hero-worshiping centric.

Anyway voters spreading the season MVP around a bit is the standard, and SGA is plenty deserving in such a case so it's all good.

[John8204]

SGA will win it for the same reasons Josh Allen won it in the NFL. And Im fine with that.


Also certain players and media have been pushing SGA for it and crowning him since December. Since just a few weeks into the season they were emphatically stating that he should get the award. For the same reasons some of them were doing likewise with Embiid back when he was in the running.

That reason doesnt need to be stated because it's quite obvious. But you already know a segment of voters have adamantly made up their mind for SGA from the very beginning (a la Mark Jackson 'accidentally' not voting Jokic first team) and the remaining people who want to make a sincere judgement will likely be split. So it's almost certain to be for SGA. And again I dont have a problem with it because I really dont care who wins the MVP award nor do I think it legitimately indicates who's 'da real mvp.' If it did Lebron would have like 12 of them. In fact personally I dislike MVP awards in team sports in general, altho Im more at peace with an MVP for the entire regular season marathon. But selecting individuals for MVP as teams are celebrating playoff achievements earned together? Makes me cringe hard as ****. The 'Finals MVP' and these other new ones are so hero-worshiping centric.

Anyway voters spreading the season MVP around a bit is the standard, and SGA is plenty deserving in such a case so it's all good.

In defense of SGA not only is he having an incredible season...OKC was the one seed last year. Jokic has 3 MVP's and Denver has only won the conference once under him. They gave him an MVP when Denver was a 6 seed and Chris Paul elevated the Suns to the 1 seed and the finals. Which in hindsight seems like a mistake. Jokic is putting up numbers which is impressive but the rule used to be best player on best team

[ImKobe]

Jokic is having a top 3 regular season of all time next to 16 Curry & 13 LeBron

It's statistically above any season ever. SGA's is more like 2016 Steph or 2013 Bron but what Jokic is doing right now has never been done before.

[Duffy Pratt]

Imagine Denver and OKC did a straight up trade of Jokic for SGA. Both teams would immediately become worse. Denver would at best be a play in team, maybe not even that. OKC would be a bit better, and probably only a trade away from being at the same level they are now.

That said, I basically think it’s irrelevant to the MVP discussion that Jokic is both better and harder to replace. This year, SGA will likely win the award and likely should win. And I’m probably one of the biggest Jokic fans here.

[Neal Romer]

In defense of SGA not only is he having an incredible season...OKC was the one seed last year. Jokic has 3 MVP's and Denver has only won the conference once under him. They gave him an MVP when Denver was a 6 seed and Chris Paul elevated the Suns to the 1 seed and the finals. Which in hindsight seems like a mistake. Jokic is putting up numbers which is impressive but the rule used to be best player on best team

I think this 'rule' is mainly for situations where theres voter fatigue or if it's not clear cut. Not when a legend is in his prime and hasnt won multiples yet.

MJ won his first MVP in 88 when he was on like the seventh best team in the league. Lebron won with the Heat when they finished behind the Bulls in the standings. Derick Rose had got it the year before but Lebron was clearly the better player so they werent gonna give Rose back to back "best player on best team" awards while Lebron is having historic seasons.

I think the 'rule' is if you have a legitimate ALL time great who clearly IS the best player and hasnt yet won 2 or 3 of them at least, then you give him his award. After that it defaults I guess to best player on the best team, even tho thats also a dumb way of doing it. Is Jayson Tatum the MVP of last year? Not to anyone who watched the playoffs certainly.

[StrongLurk]

SGA has a very slight lead in my opinion because of the pretty big gap in team record, but Denver is like 21-5 in their last 26 games.

Jokic is comfortably the best player in the league, but SGA is comfortably number 2 this year. For me, it's really going to depend on what team records and games played by SGA/Jokic each at the end of the year.

Regardless, Jokic has entered the MJ/Lebron territory where his peak is so good, he's basically "above" the MVP award now. If MVP was simply "best player", Jokic would be on his way to his 5th MVP.

[John8204]

I think this 'rule' is mainly for situations where theres voter fatigue or if it's not clear cut. Not when a legend is in his prime and hasnt won multiples yet.

MJ won his first MVP in 88 when he was on like the seventh best team in the league. Lebron won with the Heat when they finished behind the Bulls in the standings. Derick Rose had got it the year before but Lebron was clearly the better player so they werent gonna give Rose back to back "best player on best team" awards while Lebron is having historic seasons.

I think the 'rule' is if you have a legitimate ALL time great who clearly IS the best player and hasnt yet won 2 or 3 of them at least, then you give him his award. After that it defaults I guess to best player on the best team, even tho thats also a dumb way of doing it. Is Jayson Tatum the MVP of last year? Not to anyone who watched the playoffs certainly.

88 was somewhat of an anomaly though because

83 - Moses
84 - Bird
85 - Bird
86 - Bird
87 - Magic
88 - Jordan
89 - Magic
90 - Magic
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Barkley

They might not have been the overall 1 but they all came from 1 seeds. Should Tatum have gotten it last year..maybe but the other 1 seed was SGA as we see is getting it this year.

[Neal Romer]

88 was somewhat of an anomaly though because

83 - Moses
84 - Bird
85 - Bird
86 - Bird
87 - Magic
88 - Jordan
89 - Magic
90 - Magic
91 - Jordan
92 - Jordan
93 - Barkley

They might not have been the overall 1 but they all came from 1 seeds. Should Tatum have gotten it last year..maybe but the other 1 seed was SGA as we see is getting it this year.


I hear you.

But yeah, Im fine with the ones Jokic got based on the historic individual seasons he had, and Im fine with SGA this season since he meets a lot of the conventional criteria for the award.

At the end of the day it's two great players to appreciate.

[dankok8]

Being on the best team has always mattered in this so I'd say SGA. Jokic is the best player in the league but individual dominance is not the only criteria for MVP.

[FKAri]

Being on the best team has always mattered in this so I'd say SGA. Jokic is the best player in the league but individual dominance is not the only criteria for MVP.

If somebody's team is ranked 7th and their help is a roster of high schoolers then that's the MVP.

I think it's the voter's job to identify a player's contribution to the team's success. It's not easy. What do we make of a player's usage? Is that usage is justified? Do we reward high usage? Do we punish great players who have lower usage because of the greatness of their teammates? Each player's situation is different.

I think the simplest way I can describe how I view the award is that it deviates from the best player only in these ways:
- Output matters. A guy like Kawhi's a great player when healthy but if he's resting and taking games off, it doesn't dock his greatness(to an extent) but it does dock him as an MVP candidate.
- How well that player integrates vs versatility. Player A's greatness may only really shine to that extent in the context of their current team whereas player B could plug and play anywhere. This is a plus for player A in MVP voting whereas they may both be equally "great" players.

[dankok8]

If somebody's team is ranked 7th and their help is a roster of high schoolers then that's the MVP.

I think it's the voter's job to identify a player's contribution to the team's success. It's not easy. What do we make of a player's usage? Is that usage is justified? Do we reward high usage? Do we punish great players who have lower usage because of the greatness of their teammates? Each player's situation is different.

I think the simplest way I can describe how I view the award is that it deviates from the best player only in these ways:
- Output matters. A guy like Kawhi's a great player when healthy but if he's resting and taking games off, it doesn't dock his greatness(to an extent) but it does dock him as an MVP candidate.
- How well that player integrates vs versatility. Player A's greatness may only really shine to that extent in the context of their current team whereas player B could plug and play anywhere. This is a plus for player A in MVP voting whereas they may both be equally "great" players.

SGA's supporting cast is definitely much better. It does depend on where they end up at the end of the season. If Denver is say the 2nd seed and like 4 games behind OKC, then I'd say Jokic should win. But if Denver is the 5th seed and like 12 games behind, then SGA should. It's not clear cut.

Agree on the output point. Missing games is a big no-no.

The integration argument is nice in theory but how do you prove how player A or B would do on a different team they aren't actually playing against.

[tontoz]

I think SGA gets it at least in part due to voter fatigue.

[John8204]

I think SGA gets it at least in part due to voter fatigue.

And Jokic's lack of post season success

[Real Men Wear Green]

And Jokic's lack of post season success
With Jokic being an NBA champion while SGA has made what, the second round? That's a funny statement. But the way that narratives work, it may be true. I hear some media types saying that Jokic shouldn't get more mvp awards without more championships. Of course that has 0 to do with who is the most valuable player in the regular season this year.

If a Celtic isn't winning it then I don't care much who does I just find that kind of thinking funny, especially with how many people espouse it.

[John8204]

With Jokic being an NBA champion while SGA has made what, the second round? That's a funny statement. But the way that narratives work, it may be true. I hear some media types saying that Jokic shouldn't get more mvp awards without more championships. Of course that has 0 to do with who is the most valuable player in the regular season this year.

If a Celtic isn't winning it then I don't care much who does I just find that kind of thinking funny, especially with how many people espouse it.

It's not a one to one thing though because SGA doesn't have 3 other MVP's.

[Carbine]

And Jokic's lack of post season success

For anyone under 35 years old he has as much playoff success as anyone. Steph and Lebron are the only franchise players that have more team success in the playoffs and they are soon to be 37 years old and 40 years old

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's not a one to one thing though because SGA doesn't have 3 other MVP's.
You don't see how that statement makes no sense whatsoever?

Regardless of how you want to evaluate what makes a player valuable, it is supposed to go to the player that is deemed the most valuable for the regular season of the season the award is given. If you have no MVPs or you have 30, it has nothing to do with how valuable you are this season. If you think SGA is MVP because he has great stats as the best player on the best team, ok, that's a legit reason. But if you think Jokic is having the better year but just say he shouldn't get it because his MVP:Championship ratio isn't good enough? That's nonsense.

[Real Men Wear Green]

For anyone under 35 years old he has as much playoff success as anyone. Steph and Lebron are the only franchise players that have more team success in the playoffs and they are soon to be 37 years old and 40 years old
Tatum and Brown have had more playoff success. Doesn't have anything to do with who should win MVP though.

[Cowboy Thunder]

SGA bout to win All Star MVP fellas, real MVP after that. :cheers:

[kawhileonard2]

I think this 'rule' is mainly for situations where theres voter fatigue or if it's not clear cut. Not when a legend is in his prime and hasnt won multiples yet.

MJ won his first MVP in 88 when he was on like the seventh best team in the league. Lebron won with the Heat when they finished behind the Bulls in the standings. Derick Rose had got it the year before but Lebron was clearly the better player so they werent gonna give Rose back to back "best player on best team" awards while Lebron is having historic seasons.

I think the 'rule' is if you have a legitimate ALL time great who clearly IS the best player and hasnt yet won 2 or 3 of them at least, then you give him his award. After that it defaults I guess to best player on the best team, even tho thats also a dumb way of doing it. Is Jayson Tatum the MVP of last year? Not to anyone who watched the playoffs certainly.

The rule is you don't win your 4th or more unless you have the top seed. Those players who got there 4th had the top seed.