Who has a better 5-year peak than Jokic?

[StrongLurk]

MJ and Lebron? Anyone else in the 3-point era?

[Stephonit]

MJ and Lebron? Anyone else in the 3-point era?

Curry. Duh.

[StrongLurk]

Curry. Duh.

:roll:

[John8204]

George Mikan

[3ba11]

Tons of guys have 3 MVP and 2 titles in a 5-year span, such as Magic, Bird, and Lebron, while MJ adds a DPOY in there as well plus 5 scoring titles.

Now if you're going strictly by PER etc, then Jokic has the highest peak (21-25'), and Jordan is next (87-91').

[ILLsmak]

Shaq. Bird. Magic.

Joker has one ring. That matters.

If anything all Jokic proves is we forgot what a great player looks like in about 10 years.

-Smak

[ImKobe]

Best RS peak ever. Can't go there with the Playoffs because winning should be factored in and unfortunately for him the lack of help + injuries have kept him from winning more championships.

[SouBeachTalents]

Shaq. Bird. Magic.

Joker has one ring. That matters.

If anything all Jokic proves is we forgot what a great player looks like in about 10 years.

-Smak


Best RS peak ever. Can't go there with the Playoffs because winning should be factored in and unfortunately for him the lack of help + injuries have kept him from winning more championships.
How long are fans going to have this primitive mentality about individuals in team sports? Playoff performance is all that matters, championships are a team result and come down to so many factors that are out of a players control; their supporting cast, coaching, strength of their opponent, injuries, and the random bounce of the ball.

Over the last 4 years Jokic's 2nd option has missed the entirety of the playoffs twice, and in the series they lost last year he was garbage. Over that timeframe Jokic's averaged 30/13/8 on 62%TS in the playoffs, both his production and advanced metrics are virtually identical to his regular season averages. No player in history would've lead this Nuggets team to more than 1 title over the last 4 years.

I don't even care if you dispute this isn't the GOAT 5 year peak, but falling back on rings as being the justification for why it's not, especially considering his specific circumstances, is completely asinine.

[And1AllDay]

bran the only five year peak that won five mvps
2012 mvp, fmvp
2013 mvp fmvp
2014
2015
2016 fmvp

only guy to do 5 for 5

5 years, 5 mvps

[Carbine]

Jordan did 5 in 5 at two different points in his career lol

I think what you meant to say is nobody has done 6 in 5 like Lebron did from 2009-2013

Bird won 5 in only a 3 year span which is better than 6 in 5.

[ImKobe]

How long are fans going to have this primitive mentality about individuals in team sports? Playoff performance is all that matters, championships are a team result and come down to so many factors that are out of a players control; their supporting cast, coaching, strength of their opponent, injuries, and the random bounce of the ball.

Over the last 4 years Jokic's 2nd option has missed the entirety of the playoffs twice, and in the series they lost last year he was garbage. Over that timeframe Jokic's averaged 30/13/8 on 62%TS in the playoffs, both his production and advanced metrics are virtually identical to his regular season averages. No player in history would've lead this Nuggets team to more than 1 title over the last 4 years.

I don't even care if you dispute this isn't the GOAT 5 year peak, but falling back on rings as being the justification for why it's not, especially considering his specific circumstances, is completely asinine.

It's not asinine. There's players who were less impressive statistically in a 5-year window in the RS (while still being MVP level but slightly worse in terms of "PEAK") but who had way more wins in the Playoffs because they were in a different situation. I don't understand how winning and having consistent deep Playoff runs would not factor into a discussion like this.

It's not just more rings, it's more games of sustained greatness fit into that time window, which should count for something if we're talking about a "GOAT 5-year peak".

Jokic is on pace to lead the RS in every single major advanced stat again which would mark a 5th straight season.
Jordan did it every year too from '89-'93 but on top of that he was also in the ECF or the Finals every single year and only missed a total of 7 RS games, and he led the Playoffs in almost every major advanced stat every year as well.

So yeah you could say it's unfair to Jokic that he doesn't have the same level of help, but perhaps that would limit his overall production if he had more help and needed to do less. We don't know. Either way if someone's gonna tell me that "player x had a better peak than Jordan" I'm gonna need more than 1 ring and one run past the 2nd round in that time window for someone to convince me, or the RS run has to be so far beyond what Jordan did.

[ILLsmak]

How long are fans going to have this primitive mentality about individuals in team sports? Playoff performance is all that matters, championships are a team result and come down to so many factors that are out of a players control; their supporting cast, coaching, strength of their opponent, injuries, and the random bounce of the ball.

Over the last 4 years Jokic's 2nd option has missed the entirety of the playoffs twice, and in the series they lost last year he was garbage. Over that timeframe Jokic's averaged 30/13/8 on 62%TS in the playoffs, both his production and advanced metrics are virtually identical to his regular season averages. No player in history would've lead this Nuggets team to more than 1 title over the last 4 years.

I don't even care if you dispute this isn't the GOAT 5 year peak, but falling back on rings as being the justification for why it's not, especially considering his specific circumstances, is completely asinine.

Bird was otherworldly. Magic was dominant. Shaq 3 peated fmvp. Lurk himself said, iirc, that FMVP is the most prestigious award. I tend to agree, even though there are strong counter arguments to the value of awards in general.

What you say is right, but it is also right that if we don't see people going deep into the playoffs, we don't get to properly judge them against different opponents that can adjust over a 7 game series. People can say whatever they want about who Shaq was matched up against in the Finals, but they fail to remember it was the whole team + stiffs on the bench that just fouled the shit out of him haha.

So, yeah, rings do matter. I think it can be reasonably said, about someone like Shaq for instance, that he could have probably got 40 and 20 every night if he took stuff as seriously as he did the finals. Remember, too, that was when teams were scoring like 100 points.

I'm not old enough to have seen Magic and Bird live, but I have seen enough, and I've listened to enough people talk, read enough to believe they had peaks on that level. The goal is to win, above all. That's why I think Dirk jumped like 30 spots in all time ranking with one run.

-Smak

[tpols]

Nobody. Even guys like Lebron had down years in whatever 5 year peak time frame you want to use for him. Jokic has none. For MJ you would also have to use years the Pistons were kicking his ass.

[StrongLurk]

Tons of guys have 3 MVP and 2 titles in a 5-year span, such as Magic, Bird, and Lebron, while MJ adds a DPOY in there as well plus 5 scoring titles.

Now if you're going strictly by PER etc, then Jokic has the highest peak (21-25'), and Jordan is next (87-91').

Jokic might get 4 MVPs in 5 years since this year isn't over.

Something to note is Magic and Bird had MUCH better teammate talent than what Jokic has had these last 5 years. Even Lebron had better help. Shit, in 21 and 22, Jokic's best teammates weren't even playing in the playoffs...MJ might have had similar level of help to Jokic, but Jokic's competition against other teams is higher than what MJ was going through in the early 90's.

[StrongLurk]

Nobody. Even guys like Lebron had down years in whatever 5 year peak time frame you want to use for him. Jokic has none. For MJ you would also have to use years the Pistons were kicking his ass.

Depends on what years you are using for Lebron, his peak years are kind of up for debate.

[Mask the Embiid]

Magic
Bird
Kobe
Steph Curry
Duncan
Hakeem

i mean shit its a lot of em. So many ppl won multiple chips in their prime. i really don't feel like looking it up and naming every last one of em OP.


Those 6 were just off the top...durant....see another one popped up

[StrongLurk]

It's not asinine. There's players who were less impressive statistically in a 5-year window in the RS (while still being MVP level but slightly worse in terms of "PEAK") but who had way more wins in the Playoffs because they were in a different situation. I don't understand how winning and having consistent deep Playoff runs would not factor into a discussion like this.

It's not just more rings, it's more games of sustained greatness fit into that time window, which should count for something if we're talking about a "GOAT 5-year peak".

Jokic is on pace to lead the RS in every single major advanced stat again which would mark a 5th straight season.
Jordan did it every year too from '89-'93 but on top of that he was also in the ECF or the Finals every single year and only missed a total of 7 RS games, and he led the Playoffs in almost every major advanced stat every year as well.

So yeah you could say it's unfair to Jokic that he doesn't have the same level of help, but perhaps that would limit his overall production if he had more help and needed to do less. We don't know. Either way if someone's gonna tell me that "player x had a better peak than Jordan" I'm gonna need more than 1 ring and one run past the 2nd round in that time window for someone to convince me, or the RS run has to be so far beyond what Jordan did.

Jokic didn't have Murray in the 2021 playoffs and then didn't have Murray AND MPJ in the 2022 playoffs. Imagine peak MJ playing in the 91 playoffs without Pippen and Grant...he wasn't going to win shit.

Jokic basically has two playoff runs at his peak with generally healthy teammates, and in 2023 his run was easily GOAT level. Jokic was the same type of GOAT-level in 2024 but his teammates were clearly worse and Murray was slightly hobbled.

Either way, Jokic probably has the least talented supporting cast out of all the GOAT players when comparing the supporting cast to the relative competition in their eras.

[iamgine]

Nobody. Only Jordan and Lebron.

[Axe]

Curry. Duh.
Someone who blew a 3-1 lead in the biggest stage of the game. For sure.

[kawhileonard2]

Jokic lost game 7 at home.

Jordan never lost with HCA, Lebron lost with HCA 3 years in a row.

[ImKobe]

Jokic didn't have Murray in the 2021 playoffs and then didn't have Murray AND MPJ in the 2022 playoffs. Imagine peak MJ playing in the 91 playoffs without Pippen and Grant...he wasn't going to win shit.

Jokic basically has two playoff runs at his peak with generally healthy teammates, and in 2023 his run was easily GOAT level. Jokic was the same type of GOAT-level in 2024 but his teammates were clearly worse and Murray was slightly hobbled.

Either way, Jokic probably has the least talented supporting cast out of all the GOAT players when comparing the supporting cast to the relative competition in their eras.

Sure, and it sucks for him, but you could make this argument for anyone in a debate e.g Kobe didn't have enough help during his absolute peak (06-08) while Lebron played with Wade and Bosh at the same age or Jordan didn't have help in the 80s when he was at his statistical peak or KD tearing his achilles when he was red hot and en route to a 3-Peat.

I gave Jokic the RS peak title because I think it's fair in terms of the heights he's reached just purely looking at his stats, but if we do all-time peaks I personally rate someone dominating the Playoffs in a similar fashion with more deep runs and championships. Doesn't mean Jokic's peak isn't as good as anyone's but I'd just make 2 categories for it, he has no argument for a 5-year Playoff run because right now he only has 1 real run in this stretch if we go from '21-'25, though he will add to it this year so it's not a done deal yet.

[ShawkFactory]

Sure, and it sucks for him, but you could make this argument for anyone in a debate e.g Kobe didn't have enough help during his absolute peak (06-08) while Lebron played with Wade and Bosh at the same age or Jordan didn't have help in the 80s when he was at his statistical peak or KD tearing his achilles when he was red hot and en route to a 3-Peat.

I gave Jokic the RS peak title because I think it's fair in terms of the heights he's reached just purely looking at his stats, but if we do all-time peaks I personally rate someone dominating the Playoffs in a similar fashion with more deep runs and championships. Doesn't mean Jokic's peak isn't as good as anyone's but I'd just make 2 categories for it, he has no argument for a 5-year Playoff run because right now he only has 1 real run in this stretch if we go from '21-'25, though he will add to it this year so it's not a done deal yet.

It's a fruitless argument to have really. Kobe didn't have shit when he might have been at his actual best but he got lucky in his career as well. It'd be like if Jokic all of a sudden got SGA.

Murray has had some dynamite playoff runs but he's proven to be unreliable.

[ImKobe]

It's a fruitless argument to have really. Kobe didn't have shit when he might have been at his actual best but he got lucky in his career as well. It'd be like if Jokic all of a sudden got SGA.

Murray has had some dynamite playoff runs but he's proven to be unreliable.

Of course he did, but if he got lucky at his peak instead of early 2000s he'd be viewed differently.

I'm just saying I'd have 2 categories for best peaks, splitting the RS & POs into their own categories. Jokic can have the RS one.

[StrongLurk]

Sure, and it sucks for him, but you could make this argument for anyone in a debate e.g Kobe didn't have enough help during his absolute peak (06-08) while Lebron played with Wade and Bosh at the same age or Jordan didn't have help in the 80s when he was at his statistical peak or KD tearing his achilles when he was red hot and en route to a 3-Peat.

I gave Jokic the RS peak title because I think it's fair in terms of the heights he's reached just purely looking at his stats, but if we do all-time peaks I personally rate someone dominating the Playoffs in a similar fashion with more deep runs and championships. Doesn't mean Jokic's peak isn't as good as anyone's but I'd just make 2 categories for it, he has no argument for a 5-year Playoff run because right now he only has 1 real run in this stretch if we go from '21-'25, though he will add to it this year so it's not a done deal yet.

Kobe doesn't matter because his 5 year peak is not at the same level as MJ, Lebron, Jokic.

Jokic has had less help than MJ/Bron did at their peaks. I am happy to revisit this once the playoffs are done this year. It is true that we don't have quite enough playoff games to compare him to MJ/Lebron, but he may after this year.

[And1AllDay]

anyone???

bran is the only five year peak that won six mvps
2009 mvp
2010 mvp
2012 mvp, fmvp
2013 mvp fmvp

only guy to do 6 for 5

6 years, 5 mvps

[sdot_thadon]

Jokic lost game 7 at home.

Jordan never lost with HCA, Lebron lost with HCA 3 years in a row.

:oldlol: