Remember when MJ built Bulls to 2nd best team by end of 89' Playoffs b4 Phil arrived?

[3ba11]

.

1989 Playoffs

Bad Boys vs Playoff Opponents........ 11-0
Bad Boys vs Chicago Bulls................ 4-2*

* pippen missed the closeout game 6, and averaged 9.7 on 40% overall in ECF (14/6/3 in regular season)


After being surprised at how well MJ returned from injury in the 86' Playoffs, management started over and gave MJ a new lottery cast in 87', which MJ built into the 2nd-best team by the end of the 89' Playoffs before Phil arrived.. Essentially, Phil was handed an impending dynasty, since MJ had already built the 2nd-best team and steepest trajectory despite not having any 15 ppg scorers or teammates in their prime... And by employing a "lose, try again" approach and therefore getting better at actual basketball instead of additions of talent, the Bulls became the greatest team ever.

Also, MJ's development of the Bulls to the 2nd-best team in the league and steepest trajectory before Phil arrived speaks to the surprise-firing of Doug Collins, which is a forgotten piece of history - it's why people don't realize what Phil inherited (an impending dynasty).

We can measure how impressive MJ was by noting that Bird and Magic needed super-teams to barely hang with the Bad Boys, while MJ was equally-competitive with no help before Phil arrived.. Once MJ got 20 points and 5 assists from his sidekick like Kyrie for example in the 24' Finals, he went 6/6 and became the goat.

[Mask the Embiid]

If Phil didn't come and force Jordan to play in the triangle offense he would of still been "the scoring guy" that got his ass kicked in the playoffs by smart defensive teams. The pistons would of just passed the baton to the knicks to kick his ass every year. Lucky for him, Phil implemented a system which helped hide jordan's low shot taking iq by forcing him off the ball. It also helped his all star caliber teammates to contribute Pippen,Horace, and BJ. Jordan would of never won more than 1 ring with Doug Collins....you know it...i know it.....

[3ba11]

If Phil didn't come and force Jordan to play in the triangle offense he would of still been "the scoring guy" that got his ass kicked in the playoffs by smart defensive teams. The pistons would of just passed the baton to the knicks to kick his ass every year. Lucky for him, Phil implemented a system which helped hide jordan's low shot taking iq by forcing him off the ball. It also helped his all star caliber teammates to contribute Pippen,Horace, and BJ. Jordan would of never won more than 1 ring with Doug Collins....you know it...i know it.....


Phil was a 1st-time nobody coach, but he got lucky and inherited the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league, and this was without a 15 ppg scorer or anyone in their prime - Phil's teams going forward would have everyone in their prime and finally get a 15 ppg scorer at the same time Phil arrived in 1990.

Sam Barry and Tex Winter invented the triangle in the 40's waited 50 years for the GOAT and his clone to make it a winner in the NBA... And then it never won again.. MJ put this type of halfcourt ball movement on the map, and all the dynasties or dominant champions borrowed from it ever since (Spurs, Warriors, Nuggets, Celtics)... Contrastingly, high-scoring ball-dominators like Luka and Lebron turn everyone into spot-up shooter, so they prevent elite chemistry, roster construction, and dynasties.

[SouBeachTalents]

I remember when the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan

[3ba11]

I remember when the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan


No one thought they were a real 55-win team and knew the bubble would burst on their ceremonial 55 win season..

It burst as expected once opponents started caring about playing the Bulls again in the playoffs, and also the following season in 95' when the "real" bulls without MJ were barely .500

[SouBeachTalents]

No one thought they were a real 55-win team and knew the bubble would burst on their ceremonial 55 win season..

It burst as expected once opponents started caring about playing the Bulls again in the playoffs, and also the following season in 95' when the "real" bulls without MJ were barely .500
The Bulls won more playoff games without Jordan in '94 than they did with him in '95.

[3ba11]

The Bulls won more playoff games without Jordan in '94 than they did with him in '95.


you made excuses for Luka being rusty after 1 month off, while Jordan was out for nearly 2 years playing another sport professionally, smh... 95' Jordan was Wizards Jordan based on every advanced metric

[ImKobe]

If Phil didn't come and force Jordan to play in the triangle offense he would of still been "the scoring guy" that got his ass kicked in the playoffs by smart defensive teams. The pistons would of just passed the baton to the knicks to kick his ass every year. Lucky for him, Phil implemented a system which helped hide jordan's low shot taking iq by forcing him off the ball. It also helped his all star caliber teammates to contribute Pippen,Horace, and BJ. Jordan would of never won more than 1 ring with Doug Collins....you know it...i know it.....

This makes no sense because Jordan was still "the scoring guy" with Phil in the triangle. Difference is that his help got better as Pippen entered his prime so he could afford to handle the ball less.

[Axe]

I remember when the Bulls won 55 games without Jordan
Casuals need to comprehend this properly.

[John8204]

I remember when MJ had a blank check to build a superteam in 02 and he missed the playoffs and ruined the number 1 draft pick and a 30PPG player.

[Full Court]

Jordan is consensus greatest player of all time.

Jackson is the greatest coach of all time.

Those are not mutually exclusive. And one does not take away from the other.

[Hey Yo]

you made excuses for Luka being rusty after 1 month off, while Jordan was out for nearly 2 years playing another sport professionally, smh... 95' Jordan was Wizards Jordan based on every advanced metric

You made excuses for MJ losing to Orlando even though He dropped 55pts on NY a month earlier. You even once said if he wore number 23 at the beginning of the Orlando series instead of 45, they would've won the title.

[Da_Realist]

If Phil didn't come and force Jordan to play in the triangle offense he would of still been "the scoring guy" that got his ass kicked in the playoffs by smart defensive teams. The pistons would of just passed the baton to the knicks to kick his ass every year. Lucky for him, Phil implemented a system which helped hide jordan's low shot taking iq by forcing him off the ball. It also helped his all star caliber teammates to contribute Pippen,Horace, and BJ. Jordan would of never won more than 1 ring with Doug Collins....you know it...i know it.....

:oldlol: MJ had low shot taking IQ :lol I've read it all. Thanks for the laugh

[Axe]

I remember when MJ had a blank check to build a superteam in 02 and he missed the playoffs and ruined the number 1 draft pick and a 30PPG player.
And op keeps on telling us that doug collins was a better coach than phil jackson. Smh. (https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg)

[3ba11]

.
.

MJ's shooting and scoring rate increased in the triangle:




PER 100 POSSESSIONS

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss)........ 41.5 pts... 29.5 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss)........ 42.0 pts... 31.1 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss_post)........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss_post)........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA



MJ's shot more in the triangle and scored the same per game or higher when the Finals are included:



PER GAME

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats)........ 32.6 PPG and 23.3 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats)........ 31.9 PPG and 23.7 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 35.4 PPG and 24.5 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 34.3 PPG and 25.8 FGA


Finals

91-93' MJ (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=michael+jordan+averages+in+the+1990-91+to+1992-93%27+finals)........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA



So it's a myth that the triangle corraled MJ - MJ carried the Bulls' offense more with the triangle than without by virtue of higher volume and scoring rate.

This means that when Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, he didn't know what he was talking about and therefore just got lucky with MJ... Specifically, history shows that MJ built a lottery cast to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending dynasty AFTER jordan did all the heavy lifting.

[3ba11]

Jordan is consensus greatest player of all time.

Jackson is the greatest coach of all time.

Those are not mutually exclusive. And one does not take away from the other.


It isn't possible for both to be true

A goat cannot need a goat.. This is why Magic/Kareem cannot both be top 5.

So one of them is a fraud/lucky, and the historical record shows who that is clearly... Phil was the 1st time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the GOAT candidate.

Specifically, when Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, he didn't know what he was talking about and therefore just got lucky with MJ - MJ's scoring rate and volume went up in the triangle (see previous post) and he even averaged 41 to 3-peat... Furthermore, history shows that MJ built a lottery cast to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending dynasty AFTER jordan did all the heavy lifting.

[SouBeachTalents]

Phil won 5 rings without Jordan, Jordan won jack shit without Phil. It's like the opposite version of Brady/Belichick, in this case, Jordan's the fraud GOAT who never did shit without the real GOAT in Phil.

[3ba11]

Phil won 5 rings without Jordan, Jordan won jack shit without Phil. It's like the opposite version of Brady/Belichick, in this case, Jordan's the fraud GOAT who never did shit without the real GOAT in Phil.


Phil won nothing without MJ or his clone... MJ was so great that he inspired a copycat to win another 5.. Kobe also turned Shaq from perennial loser and sweepee to 3-peat champion

[SouBeachTalents]

Phil won nothing without MJ or his clone... MJ was so great that he inspired a copycat to win another 5
He won with the clone averaging 16 ppg on 41%TS in the Finals.

[3ba11]

He won with the clone averaging 16 ppg on 41%TS in the Finals.


Kobe set the record for clutch points in that series with 8.0 PPG... That's absurd - even MJ was nowhere near that.. Kobe was smart enough to let Shaq have his 1 uber-dominant run and not get in the way, except in clutch-time when the triangle requires the goat closer and Shaq becomes obsolete

[sdot_thadon]

Don't remember him building them to 2nd best anything in 89. While we're talking about 1989 though.....

I do remember that he disappeared in that exact series trashing a chance at the finals in 1989. Whether it was a quit/choke or whatever by the idiot standards you guys have, something was amiss.

[Chick Stern]

It isn't possible for both to be true

A goat cannot need a goat.. This is why Magic/Kareem cannot both be top 5.

So one of them is a fraud/lucky, and the historical record shows who that is clearly... Phil was the 1st time nobody coach in 1991, while MJ was the GOAT candidate.

Specifically, when Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, he didn't know what he was talking about and therefore just got lucky with MJ - MJ's scoring rate and volume went up in the triangle (see previous post) and he even averaged 41 to 3-peat... Furthermore, history shows that MJ built a lottery cast to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending dynasty AFTER jordan did all the heavy lifting.

Who specifically was a fraud/lucky?

and do you think Jordan QUIT, or was SUSPENDED?

[Da_Realist]

Phil won 5 rings without Jordan, Jordan won jack shit without Phil. It's like the opposite version of Brady/Belichick, in this case, Jordan's the fraud GOAT who never did shit without the real GOAT in Phil.

Phil went from MJ to Shaq/Kobe. That's like Belichcik going from Brady to Montana/Rice. Nevertheless, I do think Phil is one of the greatest, if not the greatest "coach". (Parenthesis because I don't believe Phil is the GOAT X and O guy, but he is smart and humble enough to bring in the GOAT X and O guy while he himself is a master of managing huge egos.)

[sdot_thadon]

Phil went from MJ to Shaq/Kobe. That's like Belichcik going from Brady to Montana/Rice. Nevertheless, I do think Phil is one of the greatest, if not the greatest "coach". (Parenthesis because I don't believe Phil is the GOAT X and O guy, but he is smart and humble enough to bring in the GOAT X and O guy while he himself is a master of managing huge egos.)

At some point you've gotta ask yourself, all due respect to Mj: why couldn't anyone else win coaching Mj then? No one else won coaching Kobe. Only Pat effing Riley was able to win with Shaq outside of Phil. Mj was great, the goat depending on the criteria, but let's stop shitting on his great help. There's far too much info and analysis to still be doing this. Worst part is downplaying his support doesn't even move the needle on his goat case. It's the same whether they were great help or just ok help. And no honest Mj fan should be co-signing the notion that they were trash.:no:

[Hey Yo]

Kobe set the record for clutch points in that series with 8.0 PPG... That's absurd - even MJ was nowhere near that.. Kobe was smart enough to let Shaq have his 1 uber-dominant run and not get in the way, except in clutch-time when the triangle requires the goat closer and Shaq becomes obsolete

Kobe shot 12-47 in games 5 and 6 of that series. One of the biggest carry jobs by Shaq in Finals history.

[SouBeachTalents]

Kobe shot 12-47 in games 5 and 6 of that series. One of the biggest carry jobs by Shaq in Finals history.
Statistically, it's the biggest carry job scoring wise between a first and second option in Finals history. Shaq averaged more rebounds than Kobe did points in that series, and his ppg average was higher than Kobe's FG%

[Da_Realist]

At some point you've gotta ask yourself, all due respect to Mj: why couldn't anyone else win coaching Mj then? No one else won coaching Kobe. Only Pat effing Riley was able to win with Shaq outside of Phil. Mj was great, the goat depending on the criteria, but let's stop shitting on his great help. There's far too much info and analysis to still be doing this. Worst part is downplaying his support doesn't even move the needle on his goat case. It's the same whether they were great help or just ok help. And no honest Mj fan should be co-signing the notion that they were trash.:no:

MJ had what? 4 legitimate seasons early in his career? You act like he had 10 seasons of failure before Phil Jackson got there. In the last year before PJ became the head coach, MJ led his team to two upsets before losing to the champs, giving them the only two losses of the playoffs. Dude was a competitor. He would have won with or without PJ. Lesser players like LeBron won without PJ. MJ would have figured it out.

[Da_Realist]

MJ won an NCAA title without PJ
MJ won Olympic Gold without PJ
MJ led his Olympic team to an 8-0 record against ALL NBA pros before he got to the league (has anyone else ever done that?)
MJ would have figured it out. Alpha competitors always figure it out. Winners will find a way to win.

[ShawkFactory]

MJ won an NCAA title without PJ
MJ won Olympic Gold without PJ
MJ led his Olympic team to an 8-0 record against ALL NBA pros before he got to the league (has anyone else ever done that?)
MJ would have figured it out. Alpha competitors always figure it out. Winners will find a way to win.

Huh?

[3ba11]

Huh?


Yes it's true - Google it or watch it on YouTube

[3ba11]

Slick Phil tried to preemptively take credit for the impending titles by proclaiming that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ and his numbers would go down.. This was a fraud that largely succeeded because no one noticed that Jordan's numbers went up (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?520570-Remember-when-MJ-built-Bulls-to-2nd-best-team-by-end-of-89-Playoffs-b4-Phil-arrived&p=14979624&viewfull=1#post14979624) in the triangle...

The fact that Phil didn't know anything by thinking Jordan's numbers would go down, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league, shows that he was lucky.. He was lucky to coach the goat and have the goat or his clone be the only guys to win with the triangle.

[ShawkFactory]

Yes it's true - Google it or watch it on YouTube

What's true?

[sdot_thadon]

MJ had what? 4 legitimate seasons early in his career? You act like he had 10 seasons of failure before Phil Jackson got there. In the last year before PJ became the head coach, MJ led his team to two upsets before losing to the champs, giving them the only two losses of the playoffs. Dude was a competitor. He would have won with or without PJ. Lesser players like LeBron won without PJ. MJ would have figured it out.

I'm not questioning his ability nor his competitive nature, those have never been in question. Would he have won without Phil? We'll never know but what do know is No other coach was able to win with him. You can try to delete seasons as we tend to do only for Mj or step out of the boundaries of the discussion and bring up non nba shit too. But I can't respect it because you won't do it in the next debate your name pops up in for any other player. Your user name might as well say 4ball for all intents and purposes.

[sdot_thadon]

Slick Phil tried to preemptively take credit for the impending titles by proclaiming that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ and his numbers would go down.. This was a fraud that largely succeeded because no one noticed that Jordan's numbers went up (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?520570-Remember-when-MJ-built-Bulls-to-2nd-best-team-by-end-of-89-Playoffs-b4-Phil-arrived&p=14979624&viewfull=1#post14979624) in the triangle...

The fact that Phil didn't know anything by thinking Jordan's numbers would go down, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league, shows that he was lucky.. He was lucky to coach the goat and have the goat or his clone be the only guys to win with the triangle.

Phil didn't give a shit about scoring numbers, Phil wanted to win and he thought the best way to do so was build up the supporting cast. He knew this couldn't happen. If the ball was always in Mjs hands. He was correct.

[3ba11]

Phil didn't give a shit about scoring numbers, Phil wanted to win and he thought the best way to do so was build up the supporting cast. He knew this couldn't happen. If the ball was always in Mjs hands. He was correct.


Phil proclaimed that MJ would be corraled and wouldn't carry the team anymore, but everything increased for Jordan in the triangle, such as rpg, apg, scoring rate, volume (FGA, usage).... But even though Jordan's numbers went up in the triangle,, Phil's fraud to take credit for the titles largely succeeded because no one noticed that MJ's burden went up (until now).

Accordingly, it shows luck that Phil's vision of a muffled MJ was wrong, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league.. He was very lucky to have the goat or his clone become the only guys to win with the triangle.

[ImKobe]

Slick Phil tried to preemptively take credit for the impending titles by proclaiming that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ and his numbers would go down.. This was a fraud that largely succeeded because no one noticed that Jordan's numbers went up (http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?520570-Remember-when-MJ-built-Bulls-to-2nd-best-team-by-end-of-89-Playoffs-b4-Phil-arrived&p=14979624&viewfull=1#post14979624) in the triangle...

The fact that Phil didn't know anything by thinking Jordan's numbers would go down, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league, shows that he was lucky.. He was lucky to coach the goat and have the goat or his clone be the only guys to win with the triangle.

Yeah that's the part that makes no sense when people try to tell me that they reduced Jordan's role in that new offense. His usage & FGA actually went up both in the RS & Playoffs his 1st year under Phil and it remained high for the rest of his career.

[sdot_thadon]

Phil proclaimed that MJ would be corraled and wouldn't carry the team anymore, but everything increased for Jordan in the triangle, such as rpg, apg, scoring rate, volume (FGA, usage).... But even though Jordan's numbers went up in the triangle,, Phil's fraud to take credit for the titles largely succeeded because no one noticed that MJ's burden went up (until now).

Accordingly, it shows luck that Phil's vision of a muffled MJ was wrong, coupled with him inheriting the 2nd best team and steepest trajectory in the league.. He was very lucky to have the goat or his clone become the only guys to win with the triangle.

You know what else went up? His ****ing titles.:oldlol:

[3ba11]

You know what else went up? His ****ing titles.:oldlol:


that was always going to happen for some lucky coach