MJ's scoring went up in the triangle, which busts up all the Phil Jackson mythology

[3ba11]

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1) Kobe averaged 35 ppg in the triangle in 2006, which is what MJ would've done if Phil arrived on an undeveloped team like he did with Kobe, where Kobe had to carry the scoring load more.


2) MJ was never going to average 37 every year, so any decline was the natural progression of every player's career, but he actually averaged more in the triangle than before - it's a complete myth that he averaged less in the triangle:



89' MJ before triangle........ 32.5
90' MJ with triangle........... 33.6
93' MJ with triangle........... 32.6



3) It's a myth that MJ's scoring went down in the triangle:



PER 100 POSSESSIONS

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss)........ 41.5... 7.8... 7.5... 51.9%
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss)........ 42.0... 8.5... 7.7... 51.9%


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss_post)........ 42.9... 8.1... 8.1... 50.1%
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss_post)........ 44.4... 8.5... 8.6... 50.1%



PER GAME

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats)........ 32.6... 6.2... 5.9... 51.3%
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats)........ 31.9... 6.5... 5.9... 51.9%


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 35.4... 6.8... 6.6... 2.4... 1.1... 50.1%
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 34.3... 6.6... 6.6... 2.3... 0.9... 50.1%


Finals

91-93' MJ (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=michael+jordan+averages+in+the+1990-91+to+1992-93%27+finals)........ 36.3... 6.6... 7.9... 52.6%



MJ's scoring went up in the triangle on per possession basis, while remaining basically the same on a per game basis, and higher if we include the Finals.. So all the crap that has been spewed about Phil is false and people misperceive his impact.. History shows that MJ built the Bulls to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and impending dynasty after MJ did all the heavy lifting.

Again, Phil didn't know about assisted rate, so he didn't realize that the majority of MJ's buckets were already assisted and therefore his scoring wouldn't decline in the triangle - Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore but MJ was scoring champ 7 of 7 times in the triangle.. Today's fan and media are equally-clueless about assisted rate, so they foolishly hop on the latest ball-dominator's bandwagon and then make excuses when they need more help or can't produce a great team.

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9

[TheBranStan]

1-9

[Da_Realist]

Most explosive, potent, diverse and adaptable perimeter scorer in league history.

[Lebron23]

1-9. never beat a super team. Played in the weakest era in NBA history.

[3ba11]

1-9.

never beat a super team.

Played in the weakest era in NBA history.





1-9 without Pippen became 4-6 with him in the 88' Playoffs, and then MJ lifted a 4-6 team to the goat team.

And Lebron had his own super-teams of 3 franchise players that were preseason favorites for an unprecedented 6 straight years (11' to 16'), but they fell to underdog or loser each year (except the Allen miracle)... Falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser is the definition of failing expectation, along with 1 sixty-win season in 7 tries with 2 all-stars (11-17').. This pathetic regular season record despite having the preseason favorite led to bogus "underdog" claims and odds in the Finals.

Finally, most people rank the guys that MJ beat higher than the guys that Lebron beat.. Butler is probably the 5th-best guy that Lebron beat and Drexler is superior... KG is probably the 4th best guy and Malone is superior... Curry might be next, and Isiah is comparable and some people say better... The final 2 guys are Duncan/Durant which compares to Shaq/Magic (Magic was #2 for MVP in 91')... Lebron also beat old guys like 36-year Duncan and 34-year old Duncan, while MJ only beat prime guys or MVP's.

[Da_Realist]

1-9. never beat a super team. Played in the weakest era in NBA history.

Never lost to the 2nd oldest team in the league as a favorite.
Never lost with homecourt advantage.
Never lost as a 60-win team.
Never allowed the guy he was assigned to cover to earn Finals MVP.
Never got swept with a team good enough to make it to the NBA Finals.
Never got beat then ran to another team.

[SouBeachTalents]

1-9 without Pippen became 4-6 with him in the 88' Playoffs, and then MJ lifted a 4-6 team to the goat team.

And Lebron had his own super-teams of 3 franchise players that were preseason favorites for an unprecedented 6 straight years (11' to 16'), but they fell to underdog or loser each year (except the Allen miracle)... Falling from preseason favorite to underdog or loser is the definition of failing expectation, along with 1 sixty-win season in 7 tries with 2 all-stars (11-17').. This pathetic regular season record despite having the preseason favorite led to bogus "underdog" claims and odds in the Finals.

Finally, most people rank the guys that MJ beat higher than the guys that Lebron beat.. Butler is probably the 5th-best guy that Lebron beat and Drexler is superior... KG is probably the 4th best guy and Malone is superior... Curry might be next, and Isiah is comparable and some people say better... The final 2 guys are Duncan/Durant which compares to Shaq/Magic (Magic was #2 for MVP in 91')... Lebron also beat old guys like 36-year Duncan and 34-year old Duncan, while MJ only beat prime guys or MVP's.


Never lost to the 2nd oldest team in the league as a favorite.
Never lost with homecourt advantage.
Never lost as a 60-win team.
Never allowed the guy he was assigned to cover to earn Finals MVP.
Never got swept with a team good enough to make it to the NBA Finals.
Never got beat then ran to another team.
1-9

[Axe]

No pip?

[Da_Realist]

Never lost to the 2nd oldest team in the league as a favorite.
Never lost with homecourt advantage.
Never lost as a 60-win team.
Never allowed the guy he was assigned to cover to earn Finals MVP.
Never got swept with a team good enough to make it to the NBA Finals.
Never got beat then ran to another team.

Correction: Never lost to the 2nd oldest team in league history as a favorite.

[Overdrive]

Seriously, you have to be the best among the Lebron trolls. After years of respect for MJ's career - didn't like him that much when he played - I'm starting to loath him again just for the simple fact that I get bombarded by your shitty threads every day.

[3ba11]

1-9


We can confirm that Phil's triangle was BS because Jordan scored at a higher rate in the triangle and with greater volume (FGA and usage).. So Phil is a fraud.. So is the triangle.. They were just carried by MJ.. The real reason that the Bulls won was that MJ's cast had grown from babies to men, so the triangle didn't need 35 from him in the regular season like it did from Kobe on his undeveloped team in 06'.

[ShawkFactory]

We can confirm that Phil's triangle was BS because Jordan scored at a higher rate in the triangle and with greater volume (FGA and usage).. So Phil is a fraud.. So is the triangle.. They were just carried by MJ.. The real reason that the Bulls won was that MJ's cast had grown from babies to men, so the triangle didn't need 35 from him in the regular season like it did from Kobe on his undeveloped team in 06'.

Is this a chess match you’re playing that you’re expecting people to mention to you that the triangle took the ball out of his hands more, thus reducing his time of possession and increasing the capacity for TEAM assists. Thus raising the overall ceiling of the team.

If that was the goal, well played.

[3ba11]

Is this a chess match you’re playing that you’re expecting people to mention to you that the triangle took the ball out of his hands more, thus reducing his time of possession and increasing the capacity for TEAM assists. Thus raising the overall ceiling of the team.

If that was the goal, well played.


The false narrative is that the triangle reduced MJ's scoring, volume, and burden, but it increased those things.. Jordan had a greater burden in the triangle than out of it.

[3ba11]

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Thread Cliffs

It's officially a false narrative that the triangle reduced MJ's burden, because the triangle increased his scoring rate, FGA, and usage when we compare 85-89' to 90-93'... His Finals scoring was also the highest ppg of his career... So MJ had a greater burden in the triangle than out of it based on scoring rate, FGA, usage, and Finals scoring.. Essentially, the triangle was BS and MJ carried it.. MJ had already developed a lottery roster to the 2nd best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived).. So Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league, an impending dynasty, and guys entering their prime.

[sdot_thadon]

Whaf a dummy, the triangle wasn't a tool to lower his scoring. Its purpose was to get the ball into his teammates hands more. It did it's job beautifully.

Edit: not to mention he also had carte blanche to break the triangle anytime he saw fit, so again yet another pointless thought.

[FKAri]

This is a great point you brought up OP. He had tremendous stats which makes it all the more baffling how he was so god awful at basketball.

[3ba11]

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MJ's shot attempts and scoring rate increased in the triangle:




PER 100 POSSESSIONS

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss)........ 41.5 pts... 29.5 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss)........ 42.0 pts... 31.1 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_poss_post)........ 42.9 pts... 29.7 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_poss_post)........ 44.4 pts... 33.4 FGA




MJ shot more in the triangle and scored the same per game, or even higher when the Finals are included:




PER GAME

Regular Season

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats)........ 32.6 PPG and 23.3 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats)........ 31.9 PPG and 23.7 FGA


Playoffs

85-89' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1985-1989-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 35.4 PPG and 24.5 FGA
90-93' MJ (https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html#1990-1993-sum:per_game_stats_post)........ 34.3 PPG and 25.8 FGA


Finals

91-93' MJ (https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=michael+jordan+averages+in+the+1990-91+to+1992-93%27+finals)........ 36.3 PPG and 27.4 FGA

[3ba11]

Its purpose was to get the ball into his teammates hands more. It did it's job beautifully.





The numbers in the previous post shows that the triangle drove up Jordan's shots and burden, so teammates had the ball less.

When Phil said that MJ wouldn't be scoring champ anymore in the triangle, he didn't know what he was talking about and therefore just got lucky with MJ... Specifically, history shows that MJ built a lottery cast to the 2nd-best team in the league by the end of the 89' Playoffs (before Phil arrived), so Phil simply inherited the steepest trajectory in the league and an impending dynasty after jordan did all the heavy lifting