Where do you rank Durant all-time?

[dankok8]

For me he's in Tier 3 so basically guaranteed top 25 all time but no top 12 case.

Tier 3 - Legends - #13-#25

Mikan
Oscar
West
Dr J
Moses
Karl
Robinson
Garnett
Dirk
Paul
Durant
Giannis
Jokic

[Real Men Wear Green]

Not a bad grouping but if that "Paul" is Chris Paul I can't see his resume as being on par with those other guys. That's still multiple MVP and/or championship best player territory and he doesn't have either.

[StrongLurk]

For me he's in Tier 3 so basically guaranteed top 25 all time but no top 12 case.

Tier 3 - Legends - #13-#25

Mikan
Oscar
West
Dr J
Moses
Karl
Robinson
Garnett
Dirk
Paul
Durant
Giannis
Jokic

Curry 100% should be in your tier 3. Outside of narratives, Curry/Durant are basically on the same tier. Curry might have had a slightly higher peak, KD has had a longer prime for sure.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 13 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 11 all star games, 1 steals leader

Kevin Durant (playoffs 170 games): 24 PER, 59.9 TS%, .185 WS/48, 6.7 BPM

Curry (playoffs 141 games): 23 PER, 60.6 TS%, .190 WS/48, 7.0

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

Again, how is Curry noticeably better than Durant? He isn't...

[dankok8]

Not a bad grouping but if that "Paul" is Chris Paul I can't see his resume as being on par with those other guys. That's still multiple MVP and/or championship best player territory and he doesn't have either.

Robinson, Oscar and West also don't have multiple MVP's or titles as best players. As much as I've hated on CP3 in the past for getting injured in the PS, he was still a consensus top 5 player in the league in his prime even top 3 for several seasons. Honestly I see him very much similar to David Robinson. Huge RS impact that kind of takes a step back in the PS. With Robinson it was his game not translating. With Paul, it was constant injuries but good parallel IMO.

[Neal Romer]

I have KD tied for second on the GOAT list along with everyone who ever played that isnt Lebron.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Robinson, Oscar and West also don't have multiple MVP's or titles as best players. As much as I've hated on CP3 in the past for getting injured in the PS, he was still a consensus top 5 player in the league in his prime even top 3 for several seasons. Honestly I see him very much similar to David Robinson. Huge RS impact that kind of takes a step back in the PS. With Robinson it was his game not translating. With Paul, it was constant injuries but good parallel IMO. Robertson did win mvp and furthermore was the guy that averaged a triple-double not just before it got devalued but before people even thought to make a big deal or of them to begin with. He had something like a 30/10/10 seasons. It's not hating on Paul to say that statistically he can't touch Robertson.

Jerry West is the Logo. Maybe he wasn't the best player on the Lakers the year they won the championship but he was the leader and certainly still a great player in that season.


I don't feel quite as strong about David Robinson but he did win mvp. The scoring title over Shaq was cheap but still he was dominant on both ends.

[John8204]

He's in the 20-30 range for me...He's behind guys like KG, Baylor, Giannis, etc. I think of him on the same level as Rick Barry, Walt Frazier, Allen Iverson, George Gervin...His team performances in Brooklyn and Phoenix along with basically sabotaging a title team in Golden State for his ego I can't rank a player in the top twenty for that. Skill wise he's maybe one of the ten best players ever but the dude is cancer

[John8204]

Not a bad grouping but if that "Paul" is Chris Paul I can't see his resume as being on par with those other guys. That's still multiple MVP and/or championship best player territory and he doesn't have either.

Well he was sabotaged by the league...but he's still a 12-time all-star. He also elevated the teams that he played on as opposed to Durant was de-elevated his teams. He's now number 2 all-time in steals and assists behind Stockton just because he didn't get media awards doesn't mean he's not a great player especially when those media awards went to questionable players.

[ArbitraryWater]

KD has obviously dwindled greatly in the post-GSW years.

They somewhat just reafirmed the pre-GSW years.

Hes top 20-25 afaic.

Once Jokics and lukas career is over, Id def not have KD over them if not already.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Well he was sabotaged by the league...but he's still a 12-time all-star. He also elevated the teams that he played on as opposed to Durant was de-elevated his teams. He's now number 2 all-time in steals and assists behind Stockton just because he didn't get media awards doesn't mean he's not a great player especially when those media awards went to questionable players.For players of this caliber the number of Allstar berths is irrelevant. They all have several. He's not on Durant's level. Ask yourself if any GM would take 15 years of Chris Paul over even just 10 years of Durant. Before the Achilles tear not only was he the best scorer of his generation but he could also guard anyone on the perimeter. He's one of the most talented players of all time. I will say that Paul is more of a competitor but the weakness shown when Durant joined the Warriors doesn't show him to be any worse at basketball.

[Phoenix]

This topic came up this week on First Take following KD passing the 30k plateau. Stephen A's contention is that he is top 10. To which I ask, out of the following....

MJ
Lebron
Kareem
Russell
Wilt
Magic
Bird
Duncan
Shaq
Hakeem

Who are you removing from that list for him? Note I didn't even put Kobe's name there, who most would say is a top 10 player, at worst top 12.

KD's career is a bit odd for me as far as ranking. There's no question as far as talent/ability, but his post Warriors career has served to re-enforce his lack of team success outside of conditions a number of really good to great players would win under in his spot, if not as dominantly. Outside of tenure, I'm not sure why he should be ranked over Jokic and Giannis either, or at least when it's all said and done he likely won't be.

[ILLsmak]

Robertson did win mvp and furthermore was the guy that averaged a triple-double not just before it got devalued but before people even thought to make a big deal or of them to begin with. He had something like a 30/10/10 seasons. It's not hating on Paul to say that statistically he can't touch Robertson.

Jerry West is the Logo. Maybe he wasn't the best player on the Lakers the year they won the championship but he was the leader and certainly still a great player in that season.


I don't feel quite as strong about David Robinson but he did win mvp. The scoring title over Shaq was cheap but still he was dominant on both ends.

I hate Paul, but I can't deny his metrics. I think he protects his stats, but regardless, he has to be up there on a lot of lists. He might be a tier below that, but it's not offensive.

-Smak

[L.Kizzle]

Curry 100% should be in your tier 3. Outside of narratives, Curry/Durant are basically on the same tier. Curry might have had a slightly higher peak, KD has had a longer prime for sure.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 13 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 11 all star games, 1 steals leader

Kevin Durant (playoffs 170 games): 24 PER, 59.9 TS%, .185 WS/48, 6.7 BPM

Curry (playoffs 141 games): 23 PER, 60.6 TS%, .190 WS/48, 7.0

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

Again, how is Curry noticeably better than Durant? He isn't...

These stats might matter 40 years from now from someone who's never seen them play or don't know the story. But seeing it play put in real-time, it's Curry and it shouldn't be a debate.
One guy had the literally team up with the other to win, while the other won before and after... what's the question again?

[iamgine]

Greatness overall or as a basketball player on the court? Cause he's a a lot lower in the greatness category.

[StrongLurk]

These stats might matter 40 years from now from someone who's never seen them play or don't know the story. But seeing it play put in real-time, it's Curry and it shouldn't be a debate.
One guy had the literally team up with the other to win, while the other won before and after... what's the question again?

This is mostly narrative. Yes, Curry won in 2022, but I don't like the "Curry won before Durant" take. Curry did made the finals in 2015, but he went up against a Cavs team with no Kevin Love, 4 quarters of Kyrie Irving, and Lebron who had back issues (which led to efficiency issues) all year.

Kevin Durant NEVER got that lucky to have major injuries to his Finals opponent. Durant would've won in 2012, 3 years before Curry, if he got to face a Heat team with NO Chris Bosh and only 4 quarters of Dwade (essentially same setup as Curry in 2015).

Kevin Durant had FIVE first team all-nba awards and FOUR scoring titles before Curry even got his FIRST 1st-team all-nba in the 14-15 season. KD made the finals already in 2012, faced a FULLY HEALTHY LEBRON team, and then OKC traded JAMES HARDEN literally right after those finals. KD did way more before Curry came onto the scene and his own organization sabotaged him by trading Harden so early.

If you ignore the dumb narratives and just look at on-court ability, accomplishments, and impact stats, KD and Curry are completely neck and neck on just about everything.

[John8204]

It's strange to talk of narrative but then lean on media awards for Durant.

Jerry West doesn't have 30K points, an MVP or another title. But Jerry walked into the league and year one the Lakers were contenders...and the Lakers contended for a title every year he played. Jerry never missed time, played offense and defense was able to incorporate other great players while still contending for titles. Now I look at KD who came into the league on a tanking franchise who picked up another MVP built a damn fine six man rotation.

Year 1 - wins 20 games
Year 2 - wins 20 games
Year 3 - Out in the 1st Round
Year 4 - makes the conference finals
Year 5 - Makes the finals
Year 6 - Wins 60 games...get's knocked out by the Grizzlies
Year 7 - makes the conference finals
Year 8 - misses the playoffs
Year 9 - makes the conference finals...loses to the Warriors
Year 10 - joins the Warriors wins a title
Year 11 - wins a title
Year 12 - makes the finals...gets injured
Year 13 - missed the entire season
Year 14 - misses most of the season...loses in the 2nd round
Year 15 - Lost in the first round
Year 16 - loses in the 2nd round to Denver
Year 17 - Swept in the first round

So in 17 seasons...8 of them have been terrible and 2 have been disappointing

1 season he makes the finals and injures himself costing the team a tile
1 season he takes the team to the conference finals and then leaves the team
2 seasons he wins because he joined a title contender

So that's 3 seasons where he was successful and it was a positive season. That's not a narrative that's a reputation and legacy

[StrongLurk]

It's strange to talk of narrative but then lean on media awards for Durant.

Jerry West doesn't have 30K points, an MVP or another title. But Jerry walked into the league and year one the Lakers were contenders...and the Lakers contended for a title every year he played. Jerry never missed time, played offense and defense was able to incorporate other great players while still contending for titles. Now I look at KD who came into the league on a tanking franchise who picked up another MVP built a damn fine six man rotation.

Year 1 - wins 20 games
Year 2 - wins 20 games
Year 3 - Out in the 1st Round
Year 4 - makes the conference finals
Year 5 - Makes the finals
Year 6 - Wins 60 games...get's knocked out by the Grizzlies
Year 7 - makes the conference finals
Year 8 - misses the playoffs
Year 9 - makes the conference finals...loses to the Warriors
Year 10 - joins the Warriors wins a title
Year 11 - wins a title
Year 12 - makes the finals...gets injured
Year 13 - missed the entire season
Year 14 - misses most of the season...loses in the 2nd round
Year 15 - Lost in the first round
Year 16 - loses in the 2nd round to Denver
Year 17 - Swept in the first round

So in 17 seasons...8 of them have been terrible and 2 have been disappointing

1 season he makes the finals and injures himself costing the team a tile
1 season he takes the team to the conference finals and then leaves the team
2 seasons he wins because he joined a title contender

So that's 3 seasons where he was successful and it was a positive season. That's not a narrative that's a reputation and legacy

You are missing so much context after the Thunder made the 2012 finals.

2012 after finals: Harden is traded
2013 playoffs: Westbrook is injured - only plays 2 playoff games (so no Harden and 2 games of Westbrook).
2014 playoffs: WCF run where they lose in 6 games against the eventual champs (Spurs)
2015: KD gets injured early in the season
2016 playoffs: Another WCF run, ultimately losing in 7 games to the Warriors.

If Harden isn't traded (not KD's fault) and he doesn't have bad injury luck himself and Westbrook, then they absolutely snag at least 1 chip between 2013-2016.

Then KD was an Achilles pop away from 3-peating with 3 finals MVPs (only MJ and peak Shaq did that). KD proved he was "the man" in the finals every time over Curry on the Warriors.

Then in the 2021 season, his key teammates are once again injured come playoff time (Harden played at 20% capacity and Kyrie gets hurt).

There is a lot of lame narratives and bad luck that directly impacted KD. His "legacy" would look extremely different otherwise.

[ArbitraryWater]

You are missing so much context after the Thunder made the 2012 finals.

2012 after finals: Harden is traded
2013 playoffs: Westbrook is injured - only plays 2 playoff games (so no Harden and 2 games of Westbrook).
2014 playoffs: WCF run where they lose in 6 games against the eventual champs (Spurs)
2015: KD gets injured early in the season
2016 playoffs: Another WCF run, ultimately losing in 7 games to the Warriors.

If Harden isn't traded (not KD's fault) and he doesn't have bad injury luck himself and Westbrook, then they absolutely snag at least 1 chip between 2013-2016.

Then KD was an Achilles pop away from 3-peating with 3 finals MVPs (only MJ and peak Shaq did that). KD proved he was "the man" in the finals every time over Curry on the Warriors.

Then in the 2021 season, his key teammates are once again injured come playoff time (Harden played at 20% capacity and Kyrie gets hurt).

There is a lot of lame narratives and bad luck that directly impacted KD. His "legacy" would look extremely different otherwise.


If youre gonna add context, you might as well add that KD played like absolute shit in the 2014 playoffs and would have lost as MVP in R1 if the refs and Reggie Jackson hadnt saved him. "Mr Unreliable. In 2016 he stunk up the joint in that game 7. In 2013 he wet the bed in every 4th quarter, the Grizzlies games were competitive.

Harden trade or not KD had everything at his disposal to win.

Saying if he had a superteam offering a clear competitive edge he would have won 1 isnt saying anything actually. And even that is unknown.

[John8204]

The problem is behavioral with Durant, he goes all-in with these teams and one thing goes wrong and it completely blows up in his face. You say it's not his fault that Harden was let go...well if they won it wouldn't matter. If Durant didn't lobby for Harden that's on him because he has to have the intelligence to know what he needs to win. This is the difference between a Lebron and Durant and why Lebron seemingly has done much more with less.

It's easy to say the man is unlucky...Golden State and Phoenix were both championship level teams before Durant joined them. If he stayed in OKC we could just look at his numbers and judge him fairly for that but he left, he left a team that went 7 games against the champs, that's on him.

Durant is one of the greatest players I've ever seen, he might be the perfect basketball player but his health and his brain are not on the level of the greats. The talent is there but the mentality is not.

[StrongLurk]

If youre gonna add context, you might as well add that KD played like absolute shit in the 2014 playoffs and would have lost as MVP in R1 if the refs and Reggie Jackson hadnt saved him. "Mr Unreliable. In 2016 he stunk up the joint in that game 7. In 2013 he wet the bed in every 4th quarter, the Grizzlies games were competitive.

Harden trade or not KD had everything at his disposal to win.

Saying if he had a superteam offering a clear competitive edge he would have won 1 isnt saying anything actually. And even that is unknown.

All your points are wrong or missing context.

1. Again, 2013 he had no Harden or Russ. Curry never did anything without Klay/Dray.

2. KD was better than Curry in the 2014 playoffs:

KD 2014 - 19 games, 22.6 PER, 57 TS%, .145 WS/48, 6.4 BPM - basically prime Kobe numbers
Curry 2014 - 7 games, 18.8 PER, 60.7 TS%, .131 WS/48, 4.4 BPM

3. 2016 - you say KD stunk up the joint yet Curry was MUCH WORSE the very next series. In fact, Curry was the one who stunk up a game 7.

KD vs Warriors: 30/8/3/1.7/1.7, 53.9 TS%, 20.1 gamescore
KD game 7: 27/7/3/1/1, 65 TS%, 11.1 BPM, 21.2 gamescore (you were wrong in saying he played bad)

Curry vs Cavs: 23/5/4/.9/.7, 58 TS%, 13.1 gamescore
Curry game 7: 17/5/5/2/1, 43.7 TS%, -4.7 BPM, 5.1 gamescore

[SouBeachTalents]

Where you rank KD depends a lot on how much you take his Warriors titles & FMVP's at face value. I'll never be convinced otherwise the Warriors couldn't have won 1-2 titles without him during that timeframe, especially considering they were winning with Harrison Barnes & Andrew Wiggins in his place.

If you do take them at full value, as StrongLurk seems to do, then his resume is damn near top 10 caliber.

If you don't, which I get the sense the majority of people don't, especially after 2022, then he's in the top 16-20 range, closer to 20 for me with Giannis & Jokic emerging into that territory.

[L.Kizzle]

This is mostly narrative. Yes, Curry won in 2022, but I don't like the "Curry won before Durant" take. Curry did made the finals in 2015, but he went up against a Cavs team with no Kevin Love, 4 quarters of Kyrie Irving, and Lebron who had back issues (which led to efficiency issues) all year.

Kevin Durant NEVER got that lucky to have major injuries to his Finals opponent. Durant would've won in 2012, 3 years before Curry, if he got to face a Heat team with NO Chris Bosh and only 4 quarters of Dwade (essentially same setup as Curry in 2015).

Kevin Durant had FIVE first team all-nba awards and FOUR scoring titles before Curry even got his FIRST 1st-team all-nba in the 14-15 season. KD made the finals already in 2012, faced a FULLY HEALTHY LEBRON team, and then OKC traded JAMES HARDEN literally right after those finals. KD did way more before Curry came onto the scene and his own organization sabotaged him by trading Harden so early.

If you ignore the dumb narratives and just look at on-court ability, accomplishments, and impact stats, KD and Curry are completely neck and neck on just about everything.
This is what I basically said in the section before you highlight the other part.

These stats will matter 40 years to folks who never saw this happen in real time.

So the stats and accolades are cool. Someone in 2062 will say, well KD has more All-NBA Teams and scores more, so he better right?

Still stands that KD can't win without Steph. KD has played with Westbrook, Harden (twice), Kyrie, CP3 and Booker. Is on his 4th franchise in search of a title he can say he won ad the man.

[dankok8]

Curry is solidly a tier ahead of Durant.

Being Finals MVP is very different from being the better player. Curry is far more impactful than KD both during the time they played together in GS as well as before and after. Look at the metrics like RAPM, RAPTOR etc. And Curry should have been FMVP in 2015 and it's arguable in 2018 as well.

[StrongLurk]

Where you rank KD depends a lot on how much you take his Warriors titles & FMVP's at face value. I'll never be convinced otherwise the Warriors couldn't have won 1-2 titles without him during that timeframe, especially considering they were winning with Harrison Barnes & Andrew Wiggins in his place.

If you do take them at full value, as StrongLurk seems to do, then his resume is damn near top 10 caliber.

If you don't, which I get the sense the majority of people don't, especially after 2022, then he's in the top 16-20 range, closer to 20 for me with Giannis & Jokic emerging into that territory.

I rate KD's rings as the same "value" as Curry's during that time for two main reasons.

1. KD was absolutely elite in the playoffs and godly in the finals. He was not close to being carried. Plenty of all time greats like Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, etc. have all played on teams where they were not the best player, sometimes by a large margin. KD would've legit 3-peated with 3 FMVPs if not for his achilles popping.

2. The NBA fanbase and media seem to count all 4 of Curry's rings even though he had huge injury advantage in the 2015 finals and then was a tier below KD/Lebron in the 17/18 finals.

Curry has a better "legacy" than Durant but that is not because he is the better player. Curry simply has a "lane" for legacy (specifically the greatest 3 point shooter of all time), which makes him more marketable (as well as playing on one team his whole career and being much closer to a normal person's size unlike 7 foot KD).

Let's also not forget that Curry is actually OLDER than Durant. Durant will seem older because he came into the NBA earlier, but that's because KD was a generational talent from DAY ONE where as Curry was a late bloomer.

[StrongLurk]

Curry is solidly a tier ahead of Durant.

Being Finals MVP is very different from being the better player. Curry is far more impactful than KD both during the time they played together in GS as well as before and after. Look at the metrics like RAPM, RAPTOR etc. And Curry should have been FMVP in 2015 and it's arguable in 2018 as well.

Nah, Curry shouldn't even won in 2015 if the Cavs were healthy. Imagine if Durant got to face the Heat in 2012 with no Bosh and no Dwade (like the Cavs not having love/kyrie)? KD would have a ring THREE YEARS before Curry in the same scenario. Also it's been debunked many times about the 2018 FMVP - KD absolutely deserved that.

[999Guy]

Not a bad grouping but if that "Paul" is Chris Paul I can't see his resume as being on par with those other guys. That's still multiple MVP and/or championship best player territory and he doesn't have either.

KD never tilted games more than prime Chris Paul.

Incomplete passer, defender, ball handler and leader. KD was average at too many facets of basketball IMO. And this was exposed in his OKC career.


Durant being placed anywhere near KG is insanity to me. Same for West, Mikan, and Jokic.

Gun to my head, Malone gives you more of chance than KD too. But it’s not a big gap, I think.

[John8204]

KD never tilted games more than prime Chris Paul.

Incomplete passer, defender, ball handler and leader. KD was average at too many facets of basketball IMO. And this was exposed in his OKC career.


Durant being placed anywhere near KG is insanity to me. Same for West, Mikan, and Jokic.

Gun to my head, Malone gives you more of chance than KD too. But it’s not a big gap, I think.

I don't like talking legacies of players under 30...but Mikan is also an important figure as he played basically half as long at Durant and was twice as successful. Mikan had the same physical advantages Durant had and issues with his legs but he still stuck with his team, won and put up great numbers. I could never rank Durant ahead of Mikan

[Real Men Wear Green]

KD never tilted games more than prime Chris Paul.

Incomplete passer, defender, ball handler and leader. KD was average at too many facets of basketball IMO. And this was exposed in his OKC career.


Durant being placed anywhere near KG is insanity to me. Same for West, Mikan, and Jokic.

Gun to my head, Malone gives you more of chance than KD too. But it’s not a big gap, I think. Tim Hardaway is more skillful than Shaq in every way. Doesn't matter. Durant before the Achilles tear dominated the matchup vs everyone but Lebron James. He was the best scorer of his generation and may even still be the best scorer in the league today. Chris Paul was never his equal in value or even close.

On a side note, George Mikan played in an NBA that barred black men from participating. That's a massive asterisk.

[Nowoco]

Somewhere between 14-12. But I will say this. KD's skillset and overall dominance at his peak is probably top 5. He is disrespected and frequently underrated by many.

[John8204]

On a side note, George Mikan played in an NBA that barred black men from participating. That's a massive asterisk.

The color line was broken in 1950...Mikan played until 56. He was also the commissioner of the ABA which helped elevate black stars in the league.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGPJ7387sE

And he tried to recruit Bill Russell....the man was a mensch.

[Real Men Wear Green]

The color line was broken in 1950...Mikan played until 56. He was also the commissioner of the ABA which helped elevate black stars in the league.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGPJ7387sE

And he tried to recruit Bill Russell....the man was a mensch.Mukan's career started in 1948 back when the NBA was the BAA. He played in a league that was not integrated and even when they broke the color line the league was not truly fair, they're were just a few black guys brought in whole teams explored the possibilities. As for the rest of your post I am not saying Mikan was a bad guy just pointing out the fact that accomplishments in a basketball league that isn't letting black men play don't compare to what these other guys did. It's not his fault but it is the reality.

[StrongLurk]

KD never tilted games more than prime Chris Paul.

Incomplete passer, defender, ball handler and leader. KD was average at too many facets of basketball IMO. And this was exposed in his OKC career.


Durant being placed anywhere near KG is insanity to me. Same for West, Mikan, and Jokic.

Gun to my head, Malone gives you more of chance than KD too. But it’s not a big gap, I think.

:roll:

Chris Paul can't sniff KD's jock strap.

Regarding West and Mikan, they played WAY too long ago in a completely different time period to have any real comparison to KD.

KD vs KG is a very interesting debate, I will give you that. As far as Jokic, I am actually ready to put him ahead of KD depending on how the next 2-3 years go. Peak wise, Jokic is ahead of KD for sure.

[SouBeachTalents]

I rate KD's rings as the same "value" as Curry's during that time for two main reasons.

1. KD was absolutely elite in the playoffs and godly in the finals. He was not close to being carried. Plenty of all time greats like Kobe, Shaq, Bird, Magic, etc. have all played on teams where they were not the best player, sometimes by a large margin. KD would've legit 3-peated with 3 FMVPs if not for his achilles popping.

2. The NBA fanbase and media seem to count all 4 of Curry's rings even though he had huge injury advantage in the 2015 finals and then was a tier below KD/Lebron in the 17/18 finals.

Curry has a better "legacy" than Durant but that is not because he is the better player. Curry simply has a "lane" for legacy (specifically the greatest 3 point shooter of all time), which makes him more marketable (as well as playing on one team his whole career and being much closer to a normal person's size unlike 7 foot KD).

Let's also not forget that Curry is actually OLDER than Durant. Durant will seem older because he came into the NBA earlier, but that's because KD was a generational talent from DAY ONE where as Curry was a late bloomer.
I agree there's a pretty big double standard that people write off KD's titles but Curry still gets the 4 rangz treatment even though he was also the beneficiary of that colossal talent advantage.

KD playing at an elite level was never in question, he was at his peak and was at worst one the top 3-4 players in the league. As an example, I'm sure if Shaq signed with the 72 win Bulls he'd play at an elite level too, look like the best player in the league, maybe even win FMVP over Jordan. But that wouldn't change the fact that like KD, he was just the cherry on top of an already championship caliber team, and wasn't even needed for his team to win championships.

Players winning on stacked teams was also never in question, virtually every top 10 player, with the exception of Hakeem, played on some of the best teams in the league when they were winning championships. What none of them did was join a championship core coming off a 73 win season, that went on to win another championship after he left. You really can't compare KD's situation to anybody else's because his is so unprecedented.

You look at his stint with the Warriors, 2 titles & 3 Finals in 3 years, then look at his track record without them, 0 titles & 1 Final in 15 years, then factor in what the Warriors achieved without him, it's impossible not to see the trend there.

[Stephonit]

Curry 100% should be in your tier 3. Outside of narratives, Curry/Durant are basically on the same tier. Curry might have had a slightly higher peak, KD has had a longer prime for sure.

Kevin Durant: 3 total MVPs (2FMVP/1MVP) - 6 all-nba first teams, 4 scoring titles, 13 all star games

Curry: 3 total MVPs (1FMVP/2MVPS) - 4 all-nba first teams, 2 scoring titles, 11 all star games, 1 steals leader

Kevin Durant (playoffs 170 games): 24 PER, 59.9 TS%, .185 WS/48, 6.7 BPM

Curry (playoffs 141 games): 23 PER, 60.6 TS%, .190 WS/48, 7.0

KD Finals averages: 30/8/4.5/1/1 on 67.4 TS%

Curry Finals averages: 27/6/6/1.6/.3 on 59.6 TS%

Again, how is Curry noticeably better than Durant? He isn't...

Curry is notably greater when the wider context and results are taken into account. Curry won with teammates that hadn't seen seen a finals before. Curry has won with stars that haven't shown they can win it all without him. Curry has led dominant teams that were largely overlooked or dismissed at the start of the season. Curry teams that were expected to be dominant were some of the most dominant ever. Curry has so consistently outperformed expectations that if all you do is go box score watching you should suspect you're missing something. And you are because it's generally acknowledged Curry changed the game and the box score numbers you reference don't give even an inkling of that.

[SouBeachTalents]

Somewhere between 14-12. But I will say this. KD's skillset and overall dominance at his peak is probably top 5. He is disrespected and frequently underrated by many.
That's fvcking insane, top 5 peak. You're bugging :oldlol:

[999Guy]

Tim Hardaway is more skillful than Shaq in every way. Doesn't matter. Durant before the Achilles tear dominated the matchup vs everyone but Lebron James. He was the best scorer of his generation and may even still be the best scorer in the league today. Chris Paul was never his equal in value or even close.

On a side note, George Mikan played in an NBA that barred black men from participating. That's a massive asterisk.

What is value though? Scoring and height? Those are easy, face value, low IQ measures of greatness. You got a lot of examples of Chris Paul pulling 'value' out of his ass on all kinds of teams. Even when old. Definitely when young.

Chris Paul had better offenses than Durant with worse teammates pretty much the entire time. Then when we get to defense, how can you tell me Durant is better? Then when we get to playoff play, Chris Paul's game held up better.

Look at their career stats. Durant's not ahead in any advanced stats.

And Tim Hardaway wasn't locking Shaq up in the playoffs, or outplaying him in series, ever.

Durant, when not next to Curry and Draymond, was put in hell during the playoffs. Before and after the GSW era.

His game is doesn't have that much substance. He's a chucker who's think good defense is blocks and good offense is making a shot. No levels to his game. Ask Tony Allen who's easier to put in a torture chamber.

[John8204]

Mukan's career started in 1948 back when the NBA was the BAA. He played in a league that was not integrated and even when they broke the color line the league was not truly fair, they're were just a few black guys brought in whole teams explored the possibilities. As for the rest of your post I am not saying Mikan was a bad guy just pointing out the fact that accomplishments in a basketball league that isn't letting black men play don't compare to what these other guys did. It's not his fault but it is the reality.

We can play the competition game with every generation, Micheal Jordan only really played against US players, the Soviet Union kept all those balkan players competing in war zones. I'll say this about Mikan he didn't get the perks modern players had. He didn't play back to backs, he played the games and then he had to promote the sport on his off days. What do you think the medical treatment was like back then...you know how he died. They had to amputate his leg later in life, the same leg that he injured every year he played. Do you think Kevin Durant would do media every week to sell the sport? Did you think Kevin Durant would play hurt?

Segregation was bad but don't confound the treatment of society with the character of the men played the game back then. Jack Twyman literally took care of his teammate Maurice Stokes when he was crippled. Jerry West practically adopted Kobe Bryant when he came into the league. Elgin Baylor served his country during the weekends and played during the week. Paul Arizin went to war during his career, came back and was a major factor in Wilt putting up those monster numbers. Guys back then had a hell of a lot more character than players today.

In 40 years what are people going to say about Kevin Durant...

[Real Men Wear Green]

What is value though? Scoring and height? Those are easy, face value, low IQ measures of greatness. You got a lot of examples of Chris Paul pulling 'value' out of his ass on all kinds of teams. Even when old. Definitely when young. Taking Chris Paul over Durant would be like taking John Stockton over MJ. This discussion is borderline unbelievable. He is the"generational talent." Could lead the league in scoring any season he wanted to and as the elite score of his generation has still shot 50% over his career. Before his Achilles tear was an elite defensive player that could guard anyone on the perimeter and also for some blocked shots. I would rather my leader have Paul's mentality but comparing them as talents Durant is in a different class altogether.

[Real Men Wear Green]

We can play the competition game with every generation, Micheal Jordan only really played against US players, the Soviet Union kept all those balkan players competing in war zones. I'll say this about Mikan he didn't get the perks modern players had. He didn't play back to backs, he played the games and then he had to promote the sport on his off days. What do you think the medical treatment was like back then...you know how he died. They had to amputate his leg later in life, the same leg that he injured every year he played. Do you think Kevin Durant would do media every week to sell the sport? Did you think Kevin Durant would play hurt? There is a massive difference between other countries not producing players good enough for the NBA in Jordan's time and the NBA not allowing black players that make up 70% of the league. It might as well not even be the NBA. And I'm not even talking about our getting into whether or not Mikan had good doctors or whatever else you are discussing here.


Segregation was bad but don't confound the treatment of society with the character of the men played the game back then. Jack Twyman literally took care of his teammate Maurice Stokes when he was crippled. Jerry West practically adopted Kobe Bryant when he came into the league. Elgin Baylor served his country during the weekends and played during the week. Paul Arizin went to war during his career, came back and was a major factor in Wilt putting up those monster numbers. Guys back then had a hell of a lot more character than players today. I'm not attacking Mikan's character. Again: not saying that he was a bad guy. He just played in a league that excluded many of the best tall athletes in the country. There is a very good chance that there were black athletes that, had they been given the opportunity to play in the NBA, would have kept Mikan from getting mvp awards and championships. The league is 70% black. That's a severe difference and soul of not be ignored.

[Nowoco]

That's fvcking insane, top 5 peak. You're bugging :oldlol:

I'd say the only players you can definitively say had better peaks than KD are

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Wilt

After them, you can make an argument.

[BarberSchool]

Not as high as he would probably want. He’s a great talent, but he’s not as great a player, as his talent level is.


Greatness overall or as a basketball player on the court? Cause he's a a lot lower in the greatness category.this.

[ILLsmak]

Where you rank KD depends a lot on how much you take his Warriors titles & FMVP's at face value. I'll never be convinced otherwise the Warriors couldn't have won 1-2 titles without him during that timeframe, especially considering they were winning with Harrison Barnes & Andrew Wiggins in his place.

If you do take them at full value, as StrongLurk seems to do, then his resume is damn near top 10 caliber.

If you don't, which I get the sense the majority of people don't, especially after 2022, then he's in the top 16-20 range, closer to 20 for me with Giannis & Jokic emerging into that territory.

It's not about how good they would have been without him, it's about how good they were with him. Not many people got to be on a top all time team, but KD did, and he was the best player. That means something. What KD did with a team that forced the defense to be honest on him was remarkable. They would have won more if he stayed, probably. One of the top all time fits. I can't even really imagine a similar situation.

I don't take those accolades super seriously, but watching him play was a treat. He does sell though.


I'd say the only players you can definitively say had better peaks than KD are

MJ
LeBron
Shaq
Wilt

After them, you can make an argument.

Jokic, Bird, Magic? lol. Keeping it modern.

-Smak