Why has LA played better defense without Anthony Davis?

[Im Still Ballin]

Per Statmuse:

With Davis: 116.2 DRtg (42 games)
Without Davis: 110.2 DRtg (13 games)

LA has had the #1 defense (107.5 DRtg) over the last 15 games according to NBA.com

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?LastNGames=15&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

AD played the first five of those games. DFS was acquired 20 games ago and Vanderbilt returned from long-term injury 11 games ago. Gabe Vincent has also gotten healthier and is playing better.

So there are multiple factors at play but you'd think LA would fall off without Davis but that hasn't been the case. To my eye, the Lakers are rebounding and defending in transition way better. They play faster and with more energy sans AD.

What's your take?

I've talked about how I think AD's defense is overrated before in this thread:

http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showthread.php?518586-Anthony-Davis-bodily-proportions-standing-reach-and-overrated-defense

As great as he can be on one possession, I think Davis' defensive motor sucks. His effort over an entire game, in ALL facets of defensive play. He's always falling over on offense and it kills his team's transition defense.

This is just another piece of evidence to add to the pile that includes subpar New Orleans team defenses and LA's best defense occurring during the season that AD was injured and out of shape. I'm not saying he's a bad defender. Just an overrated one.

[Chick Stern]

Vandy is key

[highwhey]

those are certainly interesting statistics. could it be that going smaller has benefited los angeles? to your point, it seems like some contributing wing players regained health and or began playing better so maybe just a small sample size. but interesting nonetheless.

[Im Still Ballin]

From the Lakers subReddit:


Over the last 10 games, LA's defense has faced a frequency of transition that'd rank 2nd highest among full-season numbers this year. But have given up an efficiency lower than any team in the past 5+ seasons. Lots of fast breaks but few buckets. An uncomfortable recipe!

Cranjis on twitter.
LOWEST IN 5+ SEASONS BY ANY TEAM


I mean logically speaking it makes sense. AD as good as he was would never get back, how many times we see him like miss or a make a layup and get stuck behind the play. Without him we’re much better in transition, we also score more leading to us being able to set our defense more as well

[Neal Romer]

It also makes sense in a way that in the three point era, big wings are more valuable defensively than centers. The three is the more efficient shot, so guys who can lock up the perimeter are really preventing more points than centers who protect the paint.

The Nuggets won a chip with Jokic at center two years ago, and the Celtics won a title last year basically with ground-bound centers Horford and Kornet filling in for KP. Obviously having a shot blocker in there is nice... but it appears to not be that necessary.

These days the priority is offense, even from your center. If Wilt and Russell and Duncan played today they wouldnt be chasing guys around the perimeter either. Their value would be judged on if they could pop out and knock down a three. Any defensive contributions would be considered a bonus, but not something that made them great.

[Neal Romer]

those are certainly interesting statistics. could it be that going smaller has benefited los angeles? to your point, it seems like some contributing wing players regained health and or began playing better so maybe just a small sample size. but interesting nonetheless.

Yeah, acquiring Finney-Smith (while simultaneously dispatching D'Lo) AND getting Vanderbilt back from injury around the same time was a huge transformation for the Laker defense.

I dun told people when they made that trade to watch out.

Everyone said I was just "slurpin Lebron's fat gorgeous hunk of meat."

And okay I mean maybe that is pretty appealing I'm not gonna lie, but I also said the thing about their defense.

[Xiao Yao You]

Having guys on the floor instead of the sidelines probably helps?

[dankok8]

Getting Vando and DFS was huge for them.

[highwhey]

Yeah, acquiring Finney-Smith (while simultaneously dispatching D'Lo) AND getting Vanderbilt back from injury around the same time was a huge transformation for the Laker defense.

I dun told people when they made that trade to watch out.

Everyone said I was just "slurpin Lebron's fat gorgeous hunk of meat."

And okay I mean maybe that is pretty appealing I'm not gonna lie, but I also said the thing about their defense.
:roll:

[ImKobe]

Half of their opponents in the last 15 games have been lottery teams + they rid of Dlo for DFS and they got Vando back mid-season.

I don't think you want to make On/Off splits arguments here when Lebron is still a massive negative in Net Rating on the season.

https://i.gyazo.com/945e8c29dab171f3de2a632ea2b5abb7.png

https://i.gyazo.com/3a30c0033521989d09b05d1500f2c974.png

https://i.gyazo.com/70320242744e706310c88ca49106f7e7.png

[tpols]

In the sample size you referenced without AD the Lakers played:

Sixers without embiid
Wizards
Hornets
Jazz
Jazz again
pre-trade warriors
Blazers

So thats why context is important.

[Im Still Ballin]

2020-21 LA Lakers:

With AD: 107.9 DRtg (36 games)
Without AD: 107.5 DRtg (36 games)

per Statmuse.

[warriorfan]

I think a combination of “next man up” where everyone steps up knowing they have increased responsibility, and what Op said with an effort thing. As great as AD is he has never had a great motor. Him getting older doesn’t help. It’s pretty amazing how big of a difference it makes when a player coasts for a few possessions and allows free buckets off of it. You could be an elite defender but throw it away with a few effort or mental errors on a few possessions.

[1987_Lakers]

I always found it weird how when AD was on the Pelicans, despite having Jrue Holiday, the Pelicans always had a mediocre defense for the most part.

You look at their most successful season together in 2018 when both played most of the regular season games and got into the 2nd round, they were not even a top 10 defense. They even had Rondo on the roster.

[Im Still Ballin]

Interesting comment from Reddit:


I said this ahead of the Denver game:

Anthony Davis is an incredibly talented player but his impact on the court is overstated because people have a tendency to think basketball is the sum total of offensive and defensive ability as if they are discrete and separate parts of the game. It’s really difficult to have a great defence when your center is a non shooter who mostly plays around the basket because after they’ll very often end the offensive possession near the hoop and therefore behind the play in transition or semi-transition.

AD’s struggles changing ends was one of the largest under-discussed issues with the Lakers’ defence over the last few years. In today’s NBA it’s really difficult to have a non-shooting big be a large part of your offense because of how important floor balance and early transition defence is. IF Luka is serious about playing defence, I think the Lakers actually match up better against teams with great bigs because their center will be 100% focused on defensive responsibilities.

[Im Still Ballin]

I think a combination of “next man up” where everyone steps up knowing they have increased responsibility, and what Op said with an effort thing. As great as AD is he has never had a great motor. Him getting older doesn’t help. It’s pretty amazing how big of a difference it makes when a player coasts for a few possessions and allows free buckets off of it. You could be an elite defender but throw it away with a few effort or mental errors on a few possessions.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - the margins are thin. There are roughly 100 possessions in a game; the starters play around 60-75 of them. So, we're talking 30-40 defensive possessions, of which like 5 or 6 are going to be transition on average.

Poor transition defense + 1 or 2 plays off a quarter = close to 10 defensive possessions which is somewhere between 25% to 33% of all defensive possessions.

You can be the most impactful defender on a single half-court possession but if your motor/effort sucks other guys will provide more value on the whole - across a game, a series, a season.

[warriorfan]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - the margins are thin. There are roughly 100 possessions in a game; the starters play around 60-75 of them. So, we're talking 30-40 defensive possessions, of which like 5 or 6 are going to be transition on average.

Poor transition defense + 1 or 2 plays off a quarter = close to 10 defensive possessions which is somewhere between 25% to 33% of all defensive possessions.

You can be the most impactful defender on a single half-court possession but if your motor/effort sucks other guys will provide more value on the whole - across a game, a series, a season.

100

Shows how competitive the league has gotten and how eye test can deceive you.

[iamgine]

Interesting comment from Reddit:

Is that proven though? Last season AD played 76 games, 35 mins a game. Their def rating is 16th in the league, which is average. If AD provided great defense from non-transition scenarios, then their transition defense must be quite bad. Which I'm not sure it was.

[90sgoat]

Mavs played some great defense in spurts with Luka and Carlisle and also with Kidd.

Same kind of team, no center, but high energy wings. Luka effect.

[90sgoat]

Luka is a plus defender. Very strong post defender, gets 2 steals a game and has a pretty good read on the defensive side. He's also improved on his weakside positioning so he more often gets a good contest, that was probably his remaining big weakness.

[ImKobe]

Yeah, that's what I was thinking - the margins are thin. There are roughly 100 possessions in a game; the starters play around 60-75 of them. So, we're talking 30-40 defensive possessions, of which like 5 or 6 are going to be transition on average.

Poor transition defense + 1 or 2 plays off a quarter = close to 10 defensive possessions which is somewhere between 25% to 33% of all defensive possessions.

You can be the most impactful defender on a single half-court possession but if your motor/effort sucks other guys will provide more value on the whole - across a game, a series, a season.

We're really talking bullshit with AD when your idol takes possessions off on D for half the game/doesn't run back on D at all when he's upset at a non-call at the end of games? Lakers now have two of those guys btw with the Luka addition..

Can't believe we have people like this still making braindead arguments here after 10+ years.


Luka is a plus defender. Very strong post defender, gets 2 steals a game and has a pretty good read on the defensive side. He's also improved on his weakside positioning so he more often gets a good contest, that was probably his remaining big weakness.

His biggest weakness is just letting guys drive past him without giving any sort of resistance. We saw this for the entire Playoffs last year. Celtics would just give the ball to anyone that Luka was guarding and having them go past him to kick the ball out for an open 3. Luka is a below-average defensive player all things considered because he does not give full effort on that end as he's always had to carry the offense at great length, and he's not a generational athlete. He also hurts his team on transition D often when he misses and instead of running back is busy arguing with the ref.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Maybe the team got pissed that everyone was calling them a defensive liability now.

[Full Court]

Because AD was the only guy on the team playing defense. Now they have 3 or 4.

[Im Still Ballin]

We're really talking bullshit with AD when your idol takes possessions off on D for half the game/doesn't run back on D at all when he's upset at a non-call at the end of games? Lakers now have two of those guys btw with the Luka addition..

Can't believe we have people like this still making braindead arguments here after 10+ years.

This has nothing to do with LeBron. Not sure why you brought him up.

AD's defensive highlight reel is about as good as anyone's, but his team results, play-by-play data, player-tracking numbers, and advanced metrics lack across his career compared to other touted great defenders.

He's a very good defender, just not the auto-DPOY some make him out to be. I will give him some grace though because I feel like he's often played out of position. He works best as that roaming PF like Giannis with Brook or Jaren with Edey/Adams. 2019-20 was his ideal setup.

[3ba11]

there are ramifications for the media favoring and covering only 1 team and 1 player - this has consequences.

Teams aren't playing hard against the Lakers because there's no incentive for them to win, since opponents won't get praised for victory and the story will be about how the Lakers need more help - the opponent is essentially hated by the media for winning - it's human nature to not try when you won't get credit or praise, and will actually be hated for winning.. It happens on a conscious or unconscious level.

look at highlights of the transition defense for the Warriors, Knicks and Nuggets against the Lakers - it gives of major all-star vibes

[ShawkFactory]

there are ramifications for the media favoring and covering only 1 team and 1 player - this has consequences.

Teams aren't playing hard against the Lakers because there's no incentive for them to win, since opponents won't get praised for victory and the story will be about how the Lakers need more help - the opponent is essentially hated by the media for winning - it's human nature to not try when you won't get credit or praise, and will actually be hated for winning.. It happens on a conscious or unconscious level.

look at highlights of the transition defense for the Warriors, Knicks and Nuggets against the Lakers - it gives of major all-star vibes

:oldlol:

That's a new one.

[8Ball]

there are ramifications for the media favoring and covering only 1 team and 1 player - this has consequences.

Teams aren't playing hard against the Lakers because there's no incentive for them to win, since opponents won't get praised for victory and the story will be about how the Lakers need more help - the opponent is essentially hated by the media for winning - it's human nature to not try when you won't get credit or praise, and will actually be hated for winning.. It happens on a conscious or unconscious level.

look at highlights of the transition defense for the Warriors, Knicks and Nuggets against the Lakers - it gives of major all-star vibes

You admitted to not watching any games anymore for over 15 years so who do you know teams don't play hard?

[BarberSchool]

Several factors:

1. Dodo & Vando on floor.

2. DLO gone.

3. Davis transition defense (much more important in regular season against young teams) is much much worse than anyone assumes. He jogs the floor slowly, and almost never sprints, as if something in his knees or hips is much worse than let on. Especially when he dives to the cup, make or miss, it’s 5on4 the other way, versus when someone like Westbrick takes an ill advised dive to the cup, he can get up fast without grimacing and can actually still sprint very well. Watch Davis run the floor, even in his first 3 quarters with Dallas, he looks godawful running the floor. Like your eyes won’t believe how slow he’s gingerly lumbering after slowly gathering himself. Worse than Valunciunas or Luka, despite not being anywhere near as stocky/heavy.

[Im Still Ballin]

Updated with four more games:

With Davis: 116.2 DRtg (42 games)
Without Davis: 109.6 DRtg (17 games)

Source: Statmuse

[Im Still Ballin]

Lakers have the best DRtg (107.2) in the NBA over the last 15 games. Anthony Davis didn't play in any of those games.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/defense?LastNGames=15&dir=A&sort=DEF_RATING

[90sgoat]

Dodo is definitely a very underrated defender, he was the heart of the Mavs team. Luka is now a plus defender, I will maintain that, this season he's become really good at reading passing lanes.

I think mostly it must be coaching, they are just very disciplined on defense and do a very effective trapping thing on almost all ballhandlers, then somehow manage to scramble back in position. Luka has definitely improved, in the past he'd look lost there too.

[Meticode]

Personally, I think it's a multitude of reasons why they've improved.

- Getting Vanderbilt back
- Vincent improving
- Redick establishing his system and the players buying into it
- The Lakers don't depend on rim traditional protection anymore
- They switch more effectively
- Double when they need to
- Front the post more often
- Crash the boards
- LeBron actually putting in effort more versus never

[ILLsmak]

those are certainly interesting statistics. could it be that going smaller has benefited los angeles? to your point, it seems like some contributing wing players regained health and or began playing better so maybe just a small sample size. but interesting nonetheless.

I think teams overperform for awhile after trades, too.

-Smak

[Phoenix]

Interesting dynamic. They're peskier defensively because I think they relied alot on AD as the final line, and without him everyone is taking more personal accountability. Lebron has been way better defensively the past 2 months, Vanderbilt is a pain in the ass defender, DFS is a good defender, Rui is solid, even Luka is getting in on the act playing the passing lanes and opportunistic steals/deflections. They're fast enough on close-outs and great at switching. They're still vulnerable inside but when I think about it, how many bigs in the league are that devastating to beat him because there's no counter. Jokic is one. Embiid? Out for the year and Philly was no threat to get to the finals. Giannis is more a downhill player than a post punisher, they'd probably try to wall off the rim and they have the personal for it.

And, regardless of how he got the job, the players have clearly bought into Reddick.

[ImKobe]

This has nothing to do with LeBron. Not sure why you brought him up.

AD's defensive highlight reel is about as good as anyone's, but his team results, play-by-play data, player-tracking numbers, and advanced metrics lack across his career compared to other touted great defenders.

He's a very good defender, just not the auto-DPOY some make him out to be. I will give him some grace though because I feel like he's often played out of position. He works best as that roaming PF like Giannis with Brook or Jaren with Edey/Adams. 2019-20 was his ideal setup.

Defense has always been hard to evaluate based on stats alone because there's so many factors to it. It's not that AD made them worse on D like the morons here have tried to insinuate. Obviously they were going to improve on D by trading DLO for DFS and with Vanderbilt returning from injury. They already improved on the defensive end prior to the Luka trade.