Carmelo Anthony is the most overrated player in the Top 75

[Lebron23]

Carmelo Anthony only won 3 playoffs series in his NBA career. Dwight should have been in top 75.

[iamgine]

How about Dave Bing tho.

[SouBeachTalents]

How about Dave Bing tho.
Cause Dave Bing gets so much hype.

[GOBB]

Overrated? Yeah ummm no

[1987_Lakers]

Pete Maravich

[Phoenix]

If they were to redo the top 75 today now that we have more data and context, some of the original top 50 wouldn't be on it. How many guys on the 60 Celtics are 'really' some of the 75 greatest ever beyond the obvious names? Or a few on that 70's Knicks team. Dolph Schayes?

You gotta go quite a few names in until you get to the point of saying Melo is the most overrated. Dame I think has only won 3 series as well. Dwight Howard should be on there. So should Ben Wallace. Klay Thompson. Tmac. Probably even Vince. What about Joe Dumars? 2 rings, 1FMVP, 3 time all-NBA, 5 time all-defense, and he's less deserving than Lenny Wilkins?

Pau? Tony Parker? Are they less deserving than some of those older guys who made it based on proximity?

[John8204]

Pete Maravich

https://media.tenor.com/6-XLwS7RsmMAAAAM/restraint-no-restraint.gif

[SouBeachTalents]

If they were to redo the top 75 today now that we have more data and context, some of the original top 50 wouldn't be on it. How many guys on the 60 Celtics are 'really' some of the 75 greatest ever beyond the obvious names? Or a few on that 70's Knicks team. Dolph Schayes?

You gotta go quite a few names in until you get to the point of saying Melo is the most overrated. Dame I think has only won 3 series as well. Dwight Howard should be on there. So should Ben Wallace. Klay Thompson. Tmac. Probably even Vince. What about Joe Dumars? 2 rings, 1FMVP, 3 time all-NBA, 5 time all-defense, and he's less deserving than Lenny Wilkins?

Pau? Tony Parker? Are they less deserving than some of those older guys who made it based on proximity?
Dolph Schayes did make 12 All-NBA Teams, back when there wasn't even a third team, so I think solely on the basis of that he'd be deserving. But this group of older players

Bill Sharman
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Lenny Wilkens
Earl Monroe
Maravich

Would never in a million years make the list if it were started from scratch today. So as long as these guys undeservedly take up this many spots, several actually deserving players will be left off the list.

[Phoenix]

Dolph Schayes did make 12 All-NBA Teams, back when there wasn't even a third team, so I think solely on the basis of that he'd be deserving. But this group of older players

Bill Sharman
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Lenny Wilkens
Earl Monroe
Maravich

Would never in a million years make the list if it were started from scratch today. So as long as these guys undeservedly take up this many spots, several actually deserving players will be left off the list.

Yeah I was looking at a few of those names with the Spock eyebrow. How on earth did those guys get in over the likes of Nique and Mcadoo back in 97?

[John8204]

If they were to redo the top 75 today now that we have more data and context, some of the original top 50 wouldn't be on it. How many guys on the 60 Celtics are 'really' some of the 75 greatest ever beyond the obvious names? Or a few on that 70's Knicks team. Dolph Schayes?

You gotta go quite a few names in until you get to the point of saying Melo is the most overrated. Dame I think has only won 3 series as well. Dwight Howard should be on there. So should Ben Wallace. Klay Thompson. Tmac. Probably even Vince. What about Joe Dumars? 2 rings, 1FMVP, 3 time all-NBA, 5 time all-defense, and he's less deserving than Lenny Wilkins?

Pau? Tony Parker? Are they less deserving than some of those older guys who made it based on proximity?

Cerain decades got the shit end of the stick (80's and 00's), I do think their are certain top 50 guys that should have been cut and only made the list because of what they did after their playing career (Bing, Sharrman, Cunningham).

Alex English, Dan Issell, Dikembe Mutombo, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Hjoward, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic all belong on the list and I would cut...

Westbrook, Davis, Lillard, Debuscherre, Bing, Sharrman, and Cunningham

Carmello can stay on the list...it's not his fault he ended up on a George Karl team and then moved onto a Jimmu Dolan organization.

[Phoenix]

Cerain decades got the shit end of the stick (80's and 00's), I do think their are certain top 50 guys that should have been cut and only made the list because of what they did after their playing career (Bing, Sharrman, Cunningham).

Alex English, Dan Issell, Dikembe Mutombo, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Hjoward, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic all belong on the list and I would cut...

Westbrook, Davis, Lillard, Debuscherre, Bing, Sharrman, and Cunningham

Carmello can stay on the list...it's not his fault he ended up on a George Karl team and then moved onto a Jimmu Dolan organization.

You seem to favor some of the older guys, what's your view on Schayes? You seem a bit older( meaning 55+ based on your rankings) so I assume you've seen some of those guys...

This is actually one of the few times I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. Westbrook should be on there though, he can be a bone-head as far as IQ but there aren't 75 better players or careers. And AD, despite the 'street clothes' rep he's gotten. Mutumbo should be on there too, forgot about him.

[John8204]

Dolph Schayes did make 12 All-NBA Teams, back when there wasn't even a third team, so I think solely on the basis of that he'd be deserving. But this group of older players

Bill Sharman
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Lenny Wilkens
Earl Monroe
Maravich

Would never in a million years make the list if it were started from scratch today. So as long as these guys undeservedly take up this many spots, several actually deserving players will be left off the list.

Paul Arizin is vastly underrated, he was an all-star every year he played and that was before and after he went to war. 2 time scoring champ and a great teammate to Neil Johnston and Wilt Chamberlain.

[Xiao Yao You]

Cerain decades got the shit end of the stick (80's and 00's), I do think their are certain top 50 guys that should have been cut and only made the list because of what they did after their playing career (Bing, Sharrman, Cunningham).

Alex English, Dan Issell, Dikembe Mutombo, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Hjoward, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic all belong on the list and I would cut...

Westbrook, Davis, Lillard, Debuscherre, Bing, Sharrman, and Cunningham

Carmello can stay on the list...it's not his fault he ended up on a George Karl team and then moved onto a Jimmu Dolan organization.

Not his fault? He forced his way to jimmu dolan :roll:

Certainly overrated. Another high scoring sf. Not one of the greats of his era

[John8204]

You seem to favor some of the older guys, what's your view on Schayes? You seem a bit older( meaning 55+ based on your rankings) so I assume you've seen some of those guys...

This is actually one of the few times I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. Westbrook should be on there though, he can be a bone-head as far as IQ but there aren't 75 better players or careers. And AD, despite the 'street clothes' rep he's gotten. Mutumbo should be on there too, forgot about him.

I think Schayes is borderline top ten PF of all-time, I think from that first generation(ish), Mikan, Arizin, Schayes, Pettit, Russell, West, Baylor, Chamberlain, Cousey, Oscar. Those guys belong on any all-time list.

To me Russ's numbers were BS, I saw his team basically juice the stats to get him that MVP. The reality is the team got better with CPIII and less talent on the team than with a Westbrook led franchise. AD needed to wait until his career ended...Wilkins and McAdoo didn't make the top fifty cut and Davis is a level below those guys. Jokic and Luka are generational and I'm not sure Davis is better than a Lanier, Issell, Sikma, Love, Gillmore etc.

[SouBeachTalents]

I think Schayes is borderline top ten PF of all-time, I think from that first generation(ish), Mikan, Arizin, Schayes, Pettit, Russell, West, Baylor, Chamberlain, Cousey, Oscar. Those guys belong on any all-time list.

To me Russ's numbers were BS, I saw his team basically juice the stats to get him that MVP. The reality is the team got better with CPIII and less talent on the team than with a Westbrook led franchise. AD needed to wait until his career ended...Wilkins and McAdoo didn't make the top fifty cut and Davis is a level below those guys. Jokic and Luka are generational and I'm not sure Davis is better than a Lanier, Issell, Sikma, Love, Gillmore etc.
You managed to hold off your trolling bullshit for quite a few posts, nearly made it through the first page of the thread this time.

[John8204]

Not his fault? He forced his way to jimmu dolan :roll:

Certainly overrated. Another high scoring sf. Not one of the greats of his era

Jimmy Dolan wasn't the worst person in the world back then...we blamed Isiah Thomas during that tenure. Carmello was bamboozled sold a bunch of wolf tickets no cap.

Is that what the kids are saying...

[John8204]

You managed to hold off your trolling bullshit for quite a few posts, nearly made it through the first page of the thread this time.

Have you ever considered taking medication for your problem?

[Phoenix]

I think Schayes is borderline top ten PF of all-time, I think from that first generation(ish), Mikan, Arizin, Schayes, Pettit, Russell, West, Baylor, Chamberlain, Cousey, Oscar. Those guys belong on any all-time list.

To me Russ's numbers were BS, I saw his team basically juice the stats to get him that MVP. The reality is the team got better with CPIII and less talent on the team than with a Westbrook led franchise. AD needed to wait until his career ended...Wilkins and McAdoo didn't make the top fifty cut and Davis is a level below those guys. Jokic and Luka are generational and I'm not sure Davis is better than a Lanier, Issell, Sikma, Love, Gillmore etc.

The only numbers I could see that applying to is rebounding, and he is a great rebounder for his position/height the same way someone like Kidd or Fat Lever were. He was averaging 7-8 rebounds even on OKC teams that didn't 'juice' the numbers. Averaged 8 the one year in Houston. Averaged 7 the first year on the Lakers with Lebron and AD on it( obviously not a great season for him overall). I would say if his rebounding was 'juiced' the year he won MVP it's because it was advantageous for their transition game to have him get the ball and take off on the break. But he has too many other great rebounding seasons, across various teams, to think that there was some concerted effort to make him a better rebounder than he is.

[John8204]

The only numbers I could see that applying to is rebounding, and he is a great rebounder for his position/height the same way someone like Kidd or Fat Lever were. He was averaging 7-8 rebounds even on OKC teams that didn't 'juice' the numbers. Averaged 8 the one year in Houston. Averaged 7 the first year on the Lakers with Lebron and AD on it( obviously not a great season for him overall). I would say if his rebounding was 'juiced' the year he won MVP it's because it was advantageous for their transition game to have him get the ball and take off on the break. But he has too many other great rebounding seasons, across various teams, to think that there was some concerted effort to make him a better rebounder than he is.

This is the best breakdown of Russ' MVP season I've seen


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMtEWzQvKjI&t=171s

While he was putting up triple doubles his efficiency numbers were some of the worst of all time.

[Xiao Yao You]

Dominique in the same overrated category as carmelo

[Nowoco]

Whilst I agree that loads of the top 50 list would never be on the top 75 if it was made today from scratch, but it would have been incredibly disrespectful to take anyone off of it. The NBA, for all his faults, wouldn't do something like that, nor should they.

That said, Melo is absolutely not an example of a bad pick. He is quite obviously a top 75 player, easily top 50 even and I say that as someone who couldn't stand Melo.

[dankok8]

Dolph Schayes did make 12 All-NBA Teams, back when there wasn't even a third team, so I think solely on the basis of that he'd be deserving. But this group of older players

Bill Sharman
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Lenny Wilkens
Earl Monroe
Maravich

Would never in a million years make the list if it were started from scratch today. So as long as these guys undeservedly take up this many spots, several actually deserving players will be left off the list.

Arizin has to make the top 75 list. Led the Warriors to a championship in 1956. 3x 1st Team All-NBA. 2x scoring champ and didn't just score but did so efficiently. He is a definite inclusion along with Schayes and Sharman IMO. Sharman 4x 1st Team All-NBA, 3x 2nd Team All-NBA. Leading scorer on a couple of Celtics championships and again a very efficient scorer and great shooter.

Maravich too was a fantastic player. Not a shoe-in to make it like the others but 2x 1st Team 2x 2nd Team. Just a fantastically skilled player. Honestly looks like a modern player that got sent in a time machine. Highlights aren't everything but this guy was seriously amazing. I would lean towards including him but he's definitely in the maybe category.

DeBusschere, Wilkens and Monroe I wouldn't have on my top 75 list either. Not enough high end accomplishments in their eras.

[GOBB]

Dominique in the same overrated category as carmelo

You’re so off base it’s not even funny. If anything he is underrated. Saying that is like someone saying Rudy Gobert is in the overrated category as these guys as well. And we know how you feel about Rudy

[dankok8]

In fact, if I had to remake the top 75 list updated as of 2025, here are my changes. The final result is 75 players instead of the 76 the NBA put in.

Remove (6): Bing, Wilkens, Monroe, DeBusschere, Rodman, Parish

Add (5): Doncic, McGrady, Howard, Embiid, Jokic

Note: For active players, I'm assuming they retire right now and play no more games. Therefore, the likes of SGA are not top 75 yet but he is almost guaranteed to be at this point.

[Phoenix]

This is the best breakdown of Russ' MVP season I've seen


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMtEWzQvKjI&t=171s

While he was putting up triple doubles his efficiency numbers were some of the worst of all time.

His triples doubles that year also correlated with the team wining, so juicing or otherwise who exactly did he have running with him to defer any of those stats to? Not saying it was ideal basketball but look at that roster....young Oladipo, Steve Adams, Kanter, Robertson, Taj Gibson....

Who outside of Lebron in 2017 is doing more with that? KD was a better player in 17 but we've seen him do less with more talent. Steph was a better player too obviously, but he needs floor spacers to maximize what he does. EDIT: You could probably put Harden in there at that point as someone who could get 47 or more wins out of that team. But it's not a long list....

[SouBeachTalents]

In fact, if I had to remake the top 75 list updated as of 2025, here are my changes. The final result is 75 players instead of the 76 the NBA put in.

Remove (6): Bing, Wilkens, Monroe, DeBusschere, Rodman, Parish

Add (5): Doncic, McGrady, Howard, Embiid, Jokic

Note: For active players, I'm assuming they retire right now and play no more games. Therefore, the likes of SGA are not top 75 yet but he is almost guaranteed to be at this point.
If the list is as of 2025, I think Butler would be more deserving than Embiid or McGrady. Don't get me wrong, tt's definitely close, and he obv doesn't quite have the regular season exploits of scoring titles & MVP's that they do, but he's still been 5x All-NBA & 5x All-Defense.

When you factor in his playoff resume, 2 Finals, literally a shot away from a 3rd, several ATG performances, I would put him on the list over guys like Dame & Melo.

But I understand he's a weird case where he ups his game in the playoffs in an almost unprecedented fashion.

[SouBeachTalents]

Arizin has to make the top 75 list. Led the Warriors to a championship in 1956. 3x 1st Team All-NBA. 2x scoring champ and didn't just score but did so efficiently. He is a definite inclusion along with Schayes and Sharman IMO. Sharman 4x 1st Team All-NBA, 3x 2nd Team All-NBA. Leading scorer on a couple of Celtics championships and again a very efficient scorer and great shooter.

Maravich too was a fantastic player. Not a shoe-in to make it like the others but 2x 1st Team 2x 2nd Team. Just a fantastically skilled player. Honestly looks like a modern player that got sent in a time machine. Highlights aren't everything but this guy was seriously amazing. I would lean towards including him but he's definitely in the maybe category.

DeBusschere, Wilkens and Monroe I wouldn't have on my top 75 list either. Not enough high end accomplishments in their eras.
Just my personal opinion, I can't take what guys who mostly played in the 50's did seriously. The league was weak AF back then, you didn't even have true ATG's like Wilt, Oscar & West yes, and even Russell only played 3 seasons.

I know you can't control what era you played in, but with the exception of Mikan and maybe Schayes due to 12 straight All-NBA nods, I just couldn't put any other guys from the 50's on the list. But I understand if you feel people who excelled in that era deserve a spot.

[Phoenix]

Jimmy Butler's a weird case. He pretty much paces himself during the regular season then becomes a different animal during the playoffs. If we saw playoff Jimmy during the season he'd probably more accolades, but then would we see the same level we've come to expect in the playoffs?

Someone like Tmac had to go HAM to drag that woeful Magic roster to the playoffs.

[dankok8]

If the list is as of 2025, I think Butler would be more deserving than Embiid or McGrady. Don't get me wrong, tt's definitely close, and he obv doesn't quite have the regular season exploits of scoring titles & MVP's that they do, but he's still been 5x All-NBA & 5x All-Defense.

When you factor in his playoff resume, 2 Finals, literally a shot away from a 3rd, several ATG performances, I would put him on the list over guys like Dame & Melo.

But I understand he's a weird case where he ups his game in the playoffs in an almost unprecedented fashion.

Butler has a case for top 75 and he's one of the names I considered. T-Mac is a 2x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team, 2x 1st Team and also a beast in the playoffs. Top 5 player in the league for a few years. Embiid won an MVP and was in the top 3 in the league the last few years. Both are well clear of Butler who is just borderline top 10 in a couple of years. 1x 2nd Team 4x 3rd Team just doesn't measure up in terms of high end play. Jimmy basically has a couple of huge performances in the 2020 Finals and then in the 1st round in 2023. Apart from that, his performances have been nothing special. And as you said, his regular season consistency just isn't there at all. Like based on the regular season only, he has no case to even be top 100. And at that point, two great playoff series probably aren't going to get you in my top 75.

[dankok8]

Just my personal opinion, I can't take what guys who mostly played in the 50's did seriously. The league was weak AF back then, you didn't even have true ATG's like Wilt, Oscar & West yes, and even Russell only played 3 seasons.

I know you can't control what era you played in, but with the exception of Mikan and maybe Schayes due to 12 straight All-NBA nods, I just couldn't put any other guys from the 50's on the list. But I understand if you feel people who excelled in that era deserve a spot.

Fair enough. The league wasn't integrated so it was definitely much weaker. I'm just going on their stature and accomplishments. The NBA list is since 1946 and I'm not changing their timeline. You may as well make a list since 1960 if you want though.

[SouBeachTalents]

Butler has a case for top 75 and he's one of the names I considered. T-Mac is a 2x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team, 2x 1st Team and also a beast in the playoffs. Top 5 player in the league for a few years. Embiid won an MVP and was in the top 3 in the league the last few years. Both are well clear of Butler who is just borderline top 10 in a couple of years. 1x 2nd Team 4x 3rd Team just doesn't measure up in terms of high end play. Jimmy basically has a couple of huge performances in the 2020 Finals and then in the 1st round in 2023. Apart from that, his performances have been nothing special. And as you said, his regular season consistency just isn't there at all. Like based on the regular season only, he has no case to even be top 100. And at that point, two great playoff series probably aren't going to get you in my top 75.
You're definitely sleeping on 2022, he averaged 27/7/5 on 60%TS and dropped 4 40 point games, including what will end up being a forgotten 47 spot in Boston in Game 6 of the conference finals.

2023 I concede he fell off after looking like Michael Jordan those final 2 games against the Bucks, and had a mediocre Finals, but taking the first 8 seed to the Finals in a regular length season is still an impressive accomplishment.

But again, I wouldn't dispute anyone picking Embiid or McGrady over him for the list instead, imo those 3 would all essentially be in the same tier.

[dankok8]

You're definitely sleeping on 2022, he averaged 27/7/5 on 60%TS and dropped 4 40 point games, including what will end up being a forgotten 47 spot in Boston in Game 6 of the conference finals.

2023 I concede he fell off after looking like Michael Jordan those final 2 games against the Bucks, and had a mediocre Finals, but taking the first 8 seed to the Finals in a regular length season is still an impressive accomplishment.

But again, I wouldn't dispute anyone picking Embiid or McGrady over him for the list instead, imo those 3 would all essentially be in the same tier.

27/7/5 aren't really great numbers for 2022 though. You have to consider things relative to era.

[RRR3]

27/7/5 aren't really great numbers for 2022 though. You have to consider things relative to era.
:biggums:

[SouBeachTalents]

27/7/5 aren't really great numbers for 2022 though. You have to consider things relative to era.
Those are pretty fvcking good bro :lol Curry for example has never averaged better than that for a playoff run through the conference finals.

[Full Court]

Wasn't he another top 75 guy that Lebron couldn't even get higher than the play-in bracket with?


:lebronamazed:

[Nowoco]

Remove (6): Bing, Wilkens, Monroe, DeBusschere, Rodman, Parish


No way Rodman comes out. Top 10 defender all-time, top 5 rebounder. Both of those are at worst. He has the accolades and the rings. His teams' winning % is elite.

In an all-time draft, no way Rodman isn't taken in the 75.

[John8204]

Who outside of Lebron in 2017 is doing more with that? KD was a better player in 17 but we've seen him do less with more talent. Steph was a better player too obviously, but he needs floor spacers to maximize what he does. EDIT: You could probably put Harden in there at that point as someone who could get 47 or more wins out of that team. But it's not a long list....

Well that's the problem with Russ...he was another guy that got an MVP because they didn't want to give Lebron an MVP to tie Jordan. Because the media and fans are so obsessed with MJ/Lebron the MVP award was greatly devalued during this era.


Butler has a case for top 75 and he's one of the names I considered. T-Mac is a 2x 1st Team, 3x 2nd Team, 2x 1st Team and also a beast in the playoffs. Top 5 player in the league for a few years. Embiid won an MVP and was in the top 3 in the league the last few years. Both are well clear of Butler who is just borderline top 10 in a couple of years. 1x 2nd Team 4x 3rd Team just doesn't measure up in terms of high end play. Jimmy basically has a couple of huge performances in the 2020 Finals and then in the 1st round in 2023. Apart from that, his performances have been nothing special. And as you said, his regular season consistency just isn't there at all. Like based on the regular season only, he has no case to even be top 100. And at that point, two great playoff series probably aren't going to get you in my top 75.

What Golden State does with Butler is going to determine my opinion of him greatly. If he takes a second low seeded team to the Conference/NBA finals or if he even wins a ring. I know SouthBeach is going to claim I'm "trolling" but I'm ranking Butler ahead of Durant. But this season really is his legacy season and I'm not ready to really settle on a spot for Jimmy on the all-time lists yet.


Just my personal opinion, I can't take what guys who mostly played in the 50's did seriously. The league was weak AF back then, you didn't even have true ATG's like Wilt, Oscar & West yes, and even Russell only played 3 seasons.

I know you can't control what era you played in, but with the exception of Mikan and maybe Schayes due to 12 straight All-NBA nods, I just couldn't put any other guys from the 50's on the list. But I understand if you feel people who excelled in that era deserve a spot.


I don't think you can just ignore one generation because you don't like it. You can make the argument that the 50's was the toughest era to play in because guys were getting no medical help and playing incredibly physical ball. It's similar to the deadball era in baseball where yeah the skill might not have been there but the game was significantly harder to play and because their were so few teams you have to fight for your roster spot.

I also don't get why you exclude Arizin and include Schayes when Arizin often ranked ahead of Schayes in MVP voting and he would have gotten more All-NBA selections had he not gone to war in his peak years.

[Phoenix]

Well that's the problem with Russ...he was another guy that got an MVP because they didn't want to give Lebron an MVP to tie Jordan. Because the media and fans are so obsessed with MJ/Lebron the MVP award was greatly devalued during this era.



MJ and Lebron both should have way more MVPs than they won, it's not a specific problem with Russ moreso than anyone else who played in a period when the voters got tired of whoever the generally regarded best player was. The fact he got the first triple double season since Oscar played into it as well. Had he averaged 28/8/8 that year and OKC still won 47 games, would he have gotten MVP? Probably not, but it is what it is. The main point is you made an argument that his numbers are 'juiced' and his peak/prime numbers outside his MVP year are still elite. The year he averaged 27/8/7 in Houston next to Harden? The team wasn't juicing his stats and he still produced a crazy statline.

[Kblaze8855]

Hes too consistently downplayed to be the most overrated. you need somebody generally considered legendary without a great deal of pushback. Pistol Pete, for example. Carmelo won way more than pistol Pete and you could argue that relative to his league Pete on the Hawks had a better team. I’m not 100% sure but I feel like they may have been in the Western Conference finals without him with much of that core. He’s famous for Being the all-time college scoring leader, when he accomplished less in four seasons, than Carmelo did in one. And it was largely because he was playing for his dad who was his coach and didn’t care that they not only never won in the tournament they never even made the NCAA tournament.

His college career was one of the great stories of sports nepotism then he got to the league to have the success of anyone considered great. Whatever you think of Melo the nuggets got a haul for him because he was desired. Hawks couldn’t find anybody to take pistol Pete until his hometown got an expansion team and needed him to sell tickets.

There may be no greater example in all professional sports style over substance as far as somebody becoming a legend. He was just out there ****ing around alienating teammates, and not being very respected. He was nice as **** But he would be the most hated on player in the league if his career played out these days.

But there are very little pushback against legendary status.

That makes him way more eligible for this title to me. And he probably not it either.

Carmelo did more than quite a few of these guys in their days, even though some of them played with others.

[FKAri]

He people to consistently downplayed to be the most overrated. Do you need somebody generally considered legendary without a great deal of pushback. Pistol Pete, for example. Carmelo, won way more than pistol Pete and you could argue that relative to his league Pete on the Hawks had a better team. I’m not 100% sure but I feel like they may have been in the Western Conference finals without him with much of that core. He’s famous for Being the all-time college scoring leader, when he accomplished less in four seasons, than Carmelo did in one. And it was largely because he was playing for his dad who was his coach and didn’t care that they not only never won in the tournament they never even made the NCAA tournament.

His college career was one of the great stories of sports nepotism then he got to the league to have the success of anyone considered great. Whatever you think of Melo the nuggets got a haul for him because he was desired. Hawks couldn’t find anybody to take pistol Pete until his hometown got an expansion team and needed him to sell tickets.

There may be no greater example in all professional sports style over substance as far as somebody becoming a legend. He was just out there ****ing around alienating teammates, and not being very respected. He was nice as **** But he would be the most hated on player in the league if his career played out these days.

But there are very little pushback against legendary status.

That makes him way more eligible for this title to me. And he probably not it either.

Carmelo did more than quite a few of these guys in their days, even though some of them played with others.

The early 80s is when the NBA and its marketing really started putting more weight on winning and success vs glamor and spectacle. Of course there's a difference between "where someone ranks on all time lists" and popularity via star power but over time these things to tend to bleed into each other.

[Xiao Yao You]

You’re so off base it’s not even funny. If anything he is underrated. Saying that is like someone saying Rudy Gobert is in the overrated category as these guys as well. And we know how you feel about Rudy

Another high scoring sf that didnt live ip to the hype. Better than a.d. english king etc? No. He could dunk:rolleyes:

[dankok8]

No way Rodman comes out. Top 10 defender all-time, top 5 rebounder. Both of those are at worst. He has the accolades and the rings. His teams' winning % is elite.

In an all-time draft, no way Rodman isn't taken in the 75.

There's way more than 10 bigs who are more impactful on D than Rodman. He's not a rim protector. And he's giving basically nothing on offense except offensive rebounding. Dwight Howard who wasn't even chosen for top 75 is clearly much better than Rodman. So are guys like Artis Gilmore, Bob Lanier, Alonzo Mourning etc. These guys are stars whereas Rodman is just a really really good role player.

[dankok8]

MJ and Lebron both should have way more MVPs than they won, it's not a specific problem with Russ moreso than anyone else who played in a period when the voters got tired of whoever the generally regarded best player was. The fact he got the first triple double season since Oscar played into it as well. Had he averaged 28/8/8 that year and OKC still won 47 games, would he have gotten MVP? Probably not, but it is what it is. The main point is you made an argument that his numbers are 'juiced' and his peak/prime numbers outside his MVP year are still elite. The year he averaged 27/8/7 in Houston next to Harden? The team wasn't juicing his stats and he still produced a crazy statline.

Honestly I hear the bolded a lot but I'm not convinced that it's true.

Before 1988, he didn't have a real case at all. Magic's Lakers won way more games than the Bulls in 1989 and 1990. Barkley's Suns won more games than the Bulls in 1993. The only year I could see Jordan get it which he didn't is 1997 because the Bulls had the best record but then again he got in in 1998 when both Malone and Shaq had good cases too with probably stronger individual seasons and basically same win totals. Honestly I wouldn't give MJ more than about 5 MVP's.

For Lebron same story. Before 2009, he didn't have a real case at all. In 2011, he had a down year. Rose led the Bulls to more wins. In 2014, KD has a better season individually and leads the Thunder to more wins. In 2015 and 2016, Curry leads the Warriors to way more wins and in the latter season has an all-time individual season too. In 2017, Westbrook has a way stronger season statistically as does Harden. Rockets also with more wins. Steph/KD also in the mix on a dominant team. In 2018 Harden leads the Rockets to the best record and has a statistical edge. Lebron also has an all-time bad defensive season. In 2020, Giannis deservedly wins over Lebron with a dominant individual season and more wins. Harden also has a good case putting up peak numbers. And then since 2021, Jokic is better every year.

[1987_Lakers]

No way Rodman comes out. Top 10 defender all-time, top 5 rebounder. Both of those are at worst. He has the accolades and the rings. His teams' winning % is elite.

In an all-time draft, no way Rodman isn't taken in the 75.

Top 5 rebounder? Try the greatest rebounder ever.

But he was such a liability offensively I can see why someone would leave him off the top 75.

In an all-time draft he gets taken because he is basically a top tier role players who would fit well with a bunch of scorers, but we are not assembling a team here.

I honestly might rank Draymond ahead of Rodman. Just as good on defense, better leader, & gives you more offense with his ballhandling/playmaking skills.

[RRR3]

Honestly I hear the bolded a lot but I'm not convinced that it's true.

Before 1988, he didn't have a real case at all. Magic's Lakers won way more games than the Bulls in 1989 and 1990. Barkley's Suns won more games than the Bulls in 1993. The only year I could see Jordan get it which he didn't is 1997 because the Bulls had the best record but then again he got in in 1998 when both Malone and Shaq had good cases too with probably stronger individual seasons and basically same win totals. Honestly I wouldn't give MJ more than about 5 MVP's.

For Lebron same story. Before 2009, he didn't have a real case at all. In 2011, he had a down year. Rose led the Bulls to more wins. In 2014, KD has a better season individually and leads the Thunder to more wins. In 2015 and 2016, Curry leads the Warriors to way more wins and in the latter season has an all-time individual season too. In 2017, Westbrook has a way stronger season statistically as does Harden. Rockets also with more wins. Steph/KD also in the mix on a dominant team. In 2018 Harden leads the Rockets to the best record and has a statistical edge. Lebron also has an all-time bad defensive season. In 2020, Giannis deservedly wins over Lebron with a dominant individual season and more wins. Harden also has a good case putting up peak numbers. And then since 2021, Jokic is better every year.
2011 wasn't a down year (besides the finals) he was conceding shots to Wade, doesn't make him worse of a player. People will never understand stats go down when stars play together apparently.

[Phoenix]

Honestly I hear the bolded a lot but I'm not convinced that it's true.

Before 1988, he didn't have a real case at all. Magic's Lakers won way more games than the Bulls in 1989 and 1990. Barkley's Suns won more games than the Bulls in 1993. The only year I could see Jordan get it which he didn't is 1997 because the Bulls had the best record but then again he got in in 1998 when both Malone and Shaq had good cases too with probably stronger individual seasons and basically same win totals. Honestly I wouldn't give MJ more than about 5 MVP's.

For Lebron same story. Before 2009, he didn't have a real case at all. In 2011, he had a down year. Rose led the Bulls to more wins. In 2014, KD has a better season individually and leads the Thunder to more wins. In 2015 and 2016, Curry leads the Warriors to way more wins and in the latter season has an all-time individual season too. In 2017, Westbrook has a way stronger season statistically as does Harden. Rockets also with more wins. Steph/KD also in the mix on a dominant team. In 2018 Harden leads the Rockets to the best record and has a statistical edge. Lebron also has an all-time bad defensive season. In 2020, Giannis deservedly wins over Lebron with a dominant individual season and more wins. Harden also has a good case putting up peak numbers. And then since 2021, Jokic is better every year.

Magic won way more games in 88 too, but Jordan won MVP. At some point there had to be some line of thinking among the voters that he was the best individual player and his teams were winning enough relative to someone like Magic who had better rosters. Nobody would have bat an eye if he won in 89,90 or 93. Hell in 93 his numbers were higher than 92 and Pippen slightly dipped, but they gave it to Barkley( not saying he was an undeserving choice). Alot of people think Barkley should have got it in 90. It's probably less about how many MJ 'really' should have won, and moreso that he got to a point where he was just flat-out the best player and they had to give the award to someone else who had a really great year and their team won enough, which was the point I was making to John.

Same for Lebron. From 2009 to 2018 he was more or less the best player. Doesn't mean there weren't other deserving players winning MVP. It's obvious why Steph won in 2016. That was a transcendent regular season. Harden winning in 18 albeit with a better roster was legit, but nobody would or should have cried if Lebron won after losing Kyrie. I mean, you talk about Lebron being bad defensively that year as if Harden was some all-defensive force. Harden's main stat edge was scoring ppg but less assists/rebounds. They were roughly equal in PER and TS%,Harden higher WS/48, Lebron higher VORP. I only use those last few stats because I already know you refer to the stat page before what you see on the court. Not meant as a diss, just an observation as to what you seem to prefer when making a point.

Maybe saying should have won 'way' more is a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think MJ legitimately having 7 MVPs and Lebron 6 would be looked at as them winning ones they had no business getting. Same thing is happening in real-time with Jokic. He may end up with 4 or 5 and credibly could have won 6 and no-one would cry about it.

[dankok8]

Magic won way more games in 88 too, but Jordan won MVP. At some point there had to be some line of thinking among the voters that he was the best individual player and his teams were winning enough relative to someone like Magic who had better rosters. Nobody would have bat an eye if he won in 89,90 or 93. Hell in 93 his numbers were higher than 92 and Pippen slightly dipped, but they gave it to Barkley( not saying he was an undeserving choice). Alot of people think Barkley should have got it in 90. It's probably less about how many MJ 'really' should have won, and moreso that he got to a point where he was just flat-out the best player and they had to give the award to someone else who had a really great year and their team won enough, which was the point I was making to John.

Same for Lebron. From 2009 to 2018 he was more or less the best player. Doesn't mean there weren't other deserving players winning MVP. It's obvious why Steph won in 2016. That was a transcendent regular season. Harden winning in 18 albeit with a better roster was legit, but nobody would or should have cried if Lebron won after losing Kyrie. I mean, you talk about Lebron being bad defensively that year as if Harden was some all-defensive force. Harden's main stat edge was scoring ppg but less assists/rebounds. They were roughly equal in PER and TS%,Harden higher WS/48, Lebron higher VORP. I only use those last few stats because I already know you refer to the stat page before what you see on the court. Not meant as a diss, just an observation as to what you seem to prefer when making a point.

Maybe saying should have won 'way' more is a bit hyperbolic, but I don't think MJ legitimately having 7 MVPs and Lebron 6 would be looked at as them winning ones they had no business getting. Same thing is happening in real-time with Jokic. He may end up with 4 or 5 and credibly could have won 6 and no-one would cry about it.

Fair enough. Good post. Your original statement was a bit hypebolic as you said. Credibly could have won is different than should have won. :lol

[Phoenix]

Fair enough. Good post. Your original statement was a bit hypebolic as you said. Credibly could have won is different than should have won. :lol

Yeah alot of times I'm just typing out shit on my phone so whatever comes into my brain first hits the page. The post you just responded to I was actually typing on my laptop so my thoughts came out a bit better.

[dankok8]

Yeah alot of times I'm just typing out shit on my phone so whatever comes into my brain first hits the page. The post you just responded to I was actually typing on my laptop so my thoughts came out a bit better.

Ya makes sense. The reason I felt compelled to respond to that is also because I hear it a lot.

[Lebron23]

Ya makes sense. The reason I felt compelled to respond to that is also because I hear it a lot.

Are you Daryl Lim??

[L.Kizzle]

Dolph Schayes did make 12 All-NBA Teams, back when there wasn't even a third team, so I think solely on the basis of that he'd be deserving. But this group of older players

Bill Sharman
Paul Arizin
Dave DeBusschere
Lenny Wilkens
Earl Monroe
Maravich

Would never in a million years make the list if it were started from scratch today. So as long as these guys undeservedly take up this many spots, several actually deserving players will be left off the list.

Paul Arizin lead his team to a championship and was still a 22 ppg scorer when he retired in 1962. Him and Schayes ate the most disrespected 50s guys. Only Mikan, Cousy and Pettit were better in the 50. Russell played two entire years in the 50s so I don't count him.

[L.Kizzle]

How about Dave Bing tho.
Dave Bing was one of the first small guys, if not the first to to really Pentwater over big guys.

[L.Kizzle]

If they were to redo the top 75 today now that we have more data and context, some of the original top 50 wouldn't be on it. How many guys on the 60 Celtics are 'really' some of the 75 greatest ever beyond the obvious names? Or a few on that 70's Knicks team. Dolph Schayes?

You gotta go quite a few names in until you get to the point of saying Melo is the most overrated. Dame I think has only won 3 series as well. Dwight Howard should be on there. So should Ben Wallace. Klay Thompson. Tmac. Probably even Vince. What about Joe Dumars? 2 rings, 1FMVP, 3 time all-NBA, 5 time all-defense, and he's less deserving than Lenny Wilkins?

Pau? Tony Parker? Are they less deserving than some of those older guys who made it based on proximity?
Top 50-75 guys from the Russell era Celtics.
Russell
Cousy
Sharman
Sam Jones
Hondo

Cousy was the 2nd best player of the 50s, he stays. Hondo was a top 5 player in the 70s, he stays as well.
So that leaves Sharman and Sam Jones.
70s Knicks
Reed
Clyde
DeBusschere
Lucas
Monroe
Dave and maybe Monroe, I can see but the other 3 definitely stay.

Is Pau better than Dave DeBusschere?
Is Tony Parker better than Earl Monroe?
Klay or Sam Jones, who's more clutch?

[L.Kizzle]

Cerain decades got the shit end of the stick (80's and 00's), I do think their are certain top 50 guys that should have been cut and only made the list because of what they did after their playing career (Bing, Sharrman, Cunningham).

Alex English, Dan Issell, Dikembe Mutombo, Tracy McGrady, Dwight Hjoward, Nikola Jokic, Luka Doncic all belong on the list and I would cut...

Westbrook, Davis, Lillard, Debuscherre, Bing, Sharrman, and Cunningham

Carmello can stay on the list...it's not his fault he ended up on a George Karl team and then moved onto a Jimmu Dolan organization.
You can't hate Westbrook that much that you'd put Dan Issel over him. Dude was a one time NBA All-Star.

[Phoenix]

Top 50-75 guys from the Russell era Celtics.
Russell
Cousy
Sharman
Sam Jones
Hondo

Cousy was the 2nd best player of the 50s, he stays. Hondo was a top 5 player in the 70s, he stays as well.
So that leaves Sharman and Sam Jones.
70s Knicks
Reed
Clyde
DeBusschere
Lucas
Monroe
Dave and maybe Monroe, I can see but the other 3 definitely stay.

Is Pau better than Dave DeBusschere?
Is Tony Parker better than Earl Monroe?
Klay or Sam Jones, who's more clutch?

Players that far apart playing in completely different leagues rules-wise really isn't worth dissecting that. Better question IMO would be who was better in their own era which is also highly subjective.

[L.Kizzle]

No way Rodman comes out. Top 10 defender all-time, top 5 rebounder. Both of those are at worst. He has the accolades and the rings. His teams' winning % is elite.

In an all-time draft, no way Rodman isn't taken in the 75.
If it came down to Rodman and Dwight, Rodman is gone.

[L.Kizzle]

Top 5 rebounder? Try the greatest rebounder ever.

But he was such a liability offensively I can see why someone would leave him off the top 75.

In an all-time draft he gets taken because he is basically a top tier role players who would fit well with a bunch of scorers, but we are not assembling a team here.

I honestly might rank Draymond ahead of Rodman. Just as good on defense, better leader, & gives you more offense with his ballhandling/playmaking skills.

He's definitely not the greatest rebounder ever. Put him and Wilt together and Wilt is grabbing the board 100% of the time.

[Phoenix]

If it came down to Rodman and Dwight, Rodman is gone.

If the top 75 were done today they'd both be in. It's not an either/or for those two.

[Phoenix]

He's definitely not the greatest rebounder ever. Put him and Wilt together and Wilt is grabbing the board 100% of the time.

Maybe but I assume people say that in a pound for pound sense. Wilt enjoyed a decisive physical edge that Rodman didn't have, in a league that most would consider the peak for centers (80s/90s). Frankly, Rodman was grabbing 18 boards in 92 (IIRC) so he'd easily be grabbing 20 plus in the 60s and 70s. People look with awe at Wilt and Russells rebound numbers but often forget you had guys like Baylor grabbing 18 boards. It was the era for those kinds of numbers.

[L.Kizzle]

Maybe but I assume people say that in a pound for pound sense. Wilt enjoyed a decisive physical edge that Rodman didn't have, in a league that most would consider the peak for centers (80s/90s). Frankly, Rodman was grabbing 18 boards in 92 (IIRC) so he'd easily be grabbing 20 plus in the 60s and 70s. People look with awe at Wilt and Russells rebound numbers but often forget you had guys like Baylor grabbing 18 boards. It was the era for those kinds of numbers.
I'm sure Rodman would get close to 20, he wouldn't get Wilt or Russell numbers. Wilt and Russell have 19 of the top 20 rebounding seasons. Nate Thurmond is numbers 19 with 21 boards. Jerry Lucas, Pettit and Bellamy got 20 or close to it. Rodman and Moses Malone are the only modern players with a top 50 rpg avg.
Baylor was not the norm although guys with similar builds like Maurice Stokes and Gus Johnson avg high number boards for small forwards, especially Stokes.

[L.Kizzle]

If the top 75 were done today they'd both be in. It's not an either/or for those two.
Nothing changed in the last five seasons for Dwight. He should have made it 5 seasons ago.

[SouBeachTalents]

Nothing changed in the last five seasons for Dwight. He should have made it 5 seasons ago.
Dwight would have a solid case to make a top 50 list, not making the top 75 was just a straight up mistake.

[dankok8]

Like I said, I wouldn't have Rodman in the top 75. There's a lot of defensive monsters at PF you can take that are also better on offense. DeBusschere, Bobby Jones, Buck Williams, Sheed, Draymond. None of those guys are in my top 75 either but I'd take them over Rodman because with them I don't have to play 4 v. 5 on offense.

[Phoenix]

Nothing changed in the last five seasons for Dwight. He should have made it 5 seasons ago.

I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said. Yes Dwight easily should be in and being overlooked is a crime. I'm saying if they were doing the top 75 today and not being beholding to the 50 that got in back in 97, he's not going to be in at the expense of Rodman. The voters would make room for both, and justifiably so.

[Phoenix]

I'm sure Rodman would get close to 20, he wouldn't get Wilt or Russell numbers. Wilt and Russell have 19 of the top 20 rebounding seasons. Nate Thurmond is numbers 19 with 21 boards. Jerry Lucas, Pettit and Bellamy got 20 or close to it. Rodman and Moses Malone are the only modern players with a top 50 rpg avg.
Baylor was not the norm although guys with similar builds like Maurice Stokes and Gus Johnson avg high number boards for small forwards, especially Stokes.

Close to 20? Like I said he was getting 18 in 92, a league packed with HOF centers and less possessions. The question is whether he'd get like 22-24. not 'close to 20'. Wilt and Russell wouldn't be grabbing 24-27 boards in the 90s.

[L.Kizzle]

Close to 20? Like I said he was getting 18 in 92, a league packed with HOF centers and less possessions. The question is whether he'd get like 22-24. not 'close to 20'. Wilt and Russell wouldn't be grabbing 24-27 boards in the 90s.
And all of the guys you mentioned were scoring threats and getting 3 blocks a games. So those guys used energy on offense and defense where as one only used energy on defense.
Patrick Ewing (I'm only using him as an example, not even using Robinson or Hakeem) was top 5 in scoring, blocks and rebounds year in and year out. In 1990, he's 2nd in blocks, 3rd in ppg and 5th in rebounds. They are not the same.
If Patrick Ewing used all of his energy on defense, what would he be doing ...

[Phoenix]

And all of the guys you mentioned were scoring threats and getting 3 blocks a games. So those guys used energy on offense and defense where as one only used energy on defense.
Patrick Ewing (I'm only using him as an example, not even using Robinson or Hakeem) was top 5 in scoring, blocks and rebounds year in and year out. In 1990, he's 2nd in blocks, 3rd in ppg and 5th in rebounds. They are not the same.
If Patrick Ewing used all of his energy on defense, what would he be doing ...

Ok, maybe I'm having a slow day. My contention is Rodman would be averaging 20+ rebounds in the 60s. What does your comments here have to do with that statement? The entire point of what I'm saying is Rodman was pretty much undersized in the 90s( great athlete, but still 6'6), slower pace and less possessions, and was able to grab 18 boards in that context.

EDIT: I'm guessing what you're saying is if Patrick Ewing didn't worry about scoring he'd grab alot more boards. Yeah, but likely not a leap into peak Rodman territory. You had someone like Mutumbo who was never an offensive anchor for his team and the most he was grabbing was 14 boards. Even still, Rodman's rebounding process at his size and for the era was special. Not sure why that's even an argument, even if we want to do mental gymnastics theorizing what others would do if they mainly focused on rebounding.

[L.Kizzle]

Ok, maybe I'm having a slow day. My contention is Rodman would be averaging 20+ rebounds in the 60s. What does your comments here have to do with that statement? The entire point of what I'm saying is Rodman was pretty much undersized in the 90s( great athlete, but still 6'6), slower pace and less possessions, and was able to grab 18 boards in that context.

EDIT: I'm guessing what you're saying is if Patrick Ewing didn't worry about scoring he'd grab alot more boards. Yeah, but likely not a leap into peak Rodman territory. You had someone like Mutumbo who was never an offensive anchor for his team and the most he was grabbing was 14 boards. Even still, Rodman's rebounding process at his size and for the era was special. Not sure why that's even an argument, even if we want to do mental gymnastics theorizing what others would do if they mainly focused on rebounding.

During the playoffs Rodmans rebounding dropped to under 10 boards a game, while Wilts actually increased.

[Phoenix]

During the playoffs Rodmans rebounding dropped to under 10 boards a game, while Wilts actually increased.

Ok. And what does that have to do with him averaging 20+ during the season? Your counter-arguments seem to be addressing things other than the core point I'm making.I don't recall making the point he'd average Wilt numbers. I go back to my original statement about people calling Rodman the 'GOAT' rebounder being intended more along the lines of pound for pound and not literal numbers. I surmise if he was in the 60s his numbers would scale somewhere between like Baylor and Wilt/Russell.