Channing Frye: Nostalgia is KILLING the NBA. MJ & Kobe being used for propaganda

[1987_Lakers]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzTKlPLs1lM&t

[Da_Realist]

Nostalgia wasn't killing the NBA when MJ played. That's because we liked what we were watching. :oldlol:

Channing Frye is the fat, slovenly wife mad at the gorgeous, fit ex-girlfriend because her husband's eye keeps wandering over there.

[1987_Lakers]

Nostalgia wasn't killing the NBA when MJ played. That's because we liked what we were watching. :oldlol:

Channing Frye is the fat, slovenly wife mad at the gorgeous, fit ex-girlfriend because her husband's eye keeps wandering over there.

Not true. This is Bird, Magic, & Dr. J talking about the expansion era 90's. At 3:10 mark Bob Costas says that the Bulls lack competition. Bird at 6:30 mark talking about how expansion teams have hurt the league.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8mm3WUH7I

Bottom line is you will always hear old heads/fans complain about the current era in every sport and brag about how much better things were back in the day.

[sdot_thadon]

Not true. This is Bird, Magic, & Dr. J talking about the expansion era 90's. At 3:10 mark Bob Costas says that the Bulls lack competition. Bird at 6:30 mark talking about how expansion teams have hurt the league.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8mm3WUH7I

Bottom line is you will always hear old heads/fans complain about the current era in every sport and brag about how much better things were back in the day.

The guys preaching to you about Mjs era weren't aware of this because most of them were KIDS during that era lol. Don't let these guys fake like they were plugged into the temperature of the fan base as children.

[Wally450]

I enjoyed basketball in the mid to late 2000s. Maybe its nostalgia, maybe its not. Maybe I'm older and more busy and can't pay attention to the sport like I did when I was younger. That could be a part of it as well.

[Da_Realist]

Not true. This is Bird, Magic, & Dr. J talking about the expansion era 90's. At 3:10 mark Bob Costas says that the Bulls lack competition. Bird at 6:30 mark talking about how expansion teams have hurt the league.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z8mm3WUH7I

Bottom line is you will always hear old heads/fans complain about the current era in every sport and brag about how much better things were back in the day.

I didn't say there was no nostalgia. I said it wasn't killing the NBA. The NBA prospered in the 90's greater than any era so, no, nostalgia was not an impediment to the expansion and popularity of the game. Nice attempt at deflection. Actually, no it wasn't. It was an expected superficial response meant to avoid the truth.

[90sgoat]

The first expansion teams didn't seem to ruin the competition, Orland got Shaq and Penny, Hornets got Mourning, LJ and Bogues early on and were two of the most exciting teams.

The canadian expansion was not a good idea competition wise and all about the money.

[sdot_thadon]

The first expansion teams didn't seem to ruin the competition, Orland got Shaq and Penny, Hornets got Mourning, LJ and Bogues early on and were two of the most exciting teams.

The canadian expansion was not a good idea competition wise and all about the money.

Any expansion dilutes the league when you're doing a draft to get players from other teams. Go look at some expansion draft history and see what kind of "steals" we started new rosters with 6 times in the Jordan era. I guess the best thing is the lotto picks they managed as startups.

[dankok8]

Expansion draft weakening the league significantly is a big-ass myth. Only players beyond the top 8 couldn't be protected. Those fringe guys don't usually make much of a difference. If you don't believe me, look at the list of names that were drafted in those 1988. 1989 and 1995 expansion drafts. 95% were scrubs.

[sdot_thadon]

Expansion draft weakening the league significantly is a big-ass myth. Only players beyond the top 8 couldn't be protected. Those fringe guys don't usually make much of a difference. If you don't believe me, look at the list of names that were drafted in those 1988. 1989 and 1995 expansion drafts. 95% were scrubs.

Exactly!! 6 teams were created with scrubs from the other franchises. That's the entire point. How bad would Jordan superstans crow about it if in 2010 to 2016 6 teams full of scrubs were added the same way while Lebron was winning chips?

[1987_Lakers]

Exactly!! 6 teams were created with scrubs from the other franchises. That's the entire point. How bad would Jordan superstans crow about it if in 2010 to 2016 6 teams full of scrubs were added the same way while Lebron was winning chips?

The fact that no teams have been added to the league in the last 20 years and only 1 team after 1996 should tell you how much they overdid it with expansion teams in the late 80's - mid 90's. Adding 6 teams in a 6 year span is pretty damn wild. :lol

David Stern even stated in an interview admitting that the NBA expanded too fast during the 90's.

[dankok8]

Exactly!! 6 teams were created with scrubs from the other franchises. That's the entire point. How bad would Jordan superstans crow about it if in 2010 to 2016 6 teams full of scrubs were added the same way while Lebron was winning chips?

Many years after expansion, there's still incredibly weak teams in the NBA. If you look at some of the worst teams by wins or SRS in NBA history, almost none of them are recent expansion teams.

[sdot_thadon]

Many years after expansion, there's still incredibly weak teams in the NBA. If you look at some of the worst teams by wins or SRS in NBA history, almost none of them are recent expansion teams.

That's franchise management issues. Not the same as dropping the bobcats into a league 6 times in a 6 year span. Some of them lucked up and drafted great players early on but not one started out as a competitive franchise.

**4 20 something win teams were added to the 90s east. For the most part none approached even .500 ball for their 1st 4 years. 2 teams with the same trajectory were also added to the west.

[dankok8]

That's franchise management issues. Not the same as dropping the bobcats into a league 6 times in a 6 year span. Some of them lucked up and drafted great players early on but not one started out as a competitive franchise.

The point is that if expansion produces weaker bottom tier teams than where the bottom teams are generally, then we should see a lot of those expansion teams on the list of worst teams ever. And we actually don't...

Now if you talk about talent dilution, a league with more teams has diluted talent. But then the modern league with 30 teams is even more diluted than the 90's with 27 teams until 1995 and 29 teams post 1995. And by that logic, the further you go into the past, the stronger the league gets which I'm not sure you or many others would support.

[sdot_thadon]

The point is that if expansion produces weaker bottom tier teams than where the bottom teams are generally, then we should see a lot of those expansion teams on the list of worst teams ever. And we actually don't...

Now if you talk about talent dilution, a league with more teams has diluted talent. But then the modern league with 30 teams is even more diluted than the 90's with 27 teams until 1995 and 29 teams post 1995. And by that logic, the further you go into the past, the stronger the league gets which I'm not sure you or many others would support.

I added this to my post while you were responding. 4 20 something win teams were added to the 90s east. For the most part none approached even .500 ball for their 1st 4 years. 2 teams with the same trajectory were also added to the west. No metric can smooth that over for me. And the player pool is exponentially bigger than it was in the 90s to balance there being more teams currently. There are fringe guys who can't make the league anymore that would easily still have contracts in the 90s right now.

[dankok8]

I added this to my post while you were responding. 4 20 something win teams were added to the 90s east. For the most part none approached even .500 ball for their 1st 4 years. 2 teams with the same trajectory were also added to the west. No metric can smooth that over for me. And the player pool is exponentially bigger than it was in the 90s to balance there being more teams currently. There are fringe guys who can't make the league anymore that would easily still have contracts in the 90s right now.

So it's your view that expansion does weaken the league by diluting the talent but the modern NBA makes up for that with a bigger talent pool. Fair enough.

The only counterpoint I'd make to that is the talent pool looks way bigger because of many international players. But back in the 90's, many international players went to US colleges like Hakeem, Ewing, and Mutombo and so they weren't listed as international. The talent pool is bigger today but not that much IMO. I've also seen people make convincing arguments that US basketball declined which is making international talent look better by comparison.

Me personally, I like to stay away from era comparisons. It's just a rabbit hole man with little objective data to support it either way.

[hiphopanonymous]

We are now the same distance in time from the 90s as the 90s was from the 60s.

I don't know how fans in the 90s felt about 60s players but I remember coming to ISH around 2009 and man, most posters here thought the 60s for example was dog shit.

This is literally exactly how young fans act about 90s players now.

In my opinion? Anyone that felt like the past was shitty when they were in their prime (even as a fan) deserves to get ridiculed by the next generation.

Literally nothing even remotely true about different generations being vastly superior to another because they all lived completely different lives under different circumstances, and often times games like basketball even - though similar - have changed. It becomes apples and oranges. I see a bunch of arrogant idiots today acting like everything right now is the best thing since sliced bread. But I saw idiots doing it 20 years ago too so who cares.

[sdot_thadon]

So it's your view that expansion does weaken the league by diluting the talent but the modern NBA makes up for that with a bigger talent pool. Fair enough.

The only counterpoint I'd make to that is the talent pool looks way bigger because of many international players. But back in the 90's, many international players went to US colleges like Hakeem, Ewing, and Mutombo and so they weren't listed as international. The talent pool is bigger today but not that much IMO. I've also seen people make convincing arguments that US basketball declined which is making international talent look better by comparison.

Me personally, I like to stay away from era comparisons. It's just a rabbit hole man with little objective data to support it either way.

I think there just wasn't as many professional quality players back then as it is now, especially internationally because we get mvp candidates now that never touched American soil, that's a huge upgrade talent pool wise. Comparing across eras is always going to be difficult because the average person couldn't gaf about nuanced discussions everything is microwaved now 140 characters or less preferably.

[ImKobe]

I think there just wasn't as many professional quality players back then as it is now, especially internationally because we get mvp candidates now that never touched American soil, that's a huge upgrade talent pool wise. Comparing across eras is always going to be difficult because the average person couldn't gaf about nuanced discussions everything is microwaved now 140 characters or less preferably.

Or perhaps the quality of basketball regressed in the USA to the point where the Euros are taking over? Obviously there's other factors like the collapse of the Soviet Union and globalization and the Internet that have made the NBA more accessible for the Euros as well, but I think there's a skill gap now among the younger players that perhaps wasn't as much of a factor back then, plus with less physicality & more spacing it's easier for smaller & less athletic players to produce in the modern NBA.

[Axe]

The usual braindead casuals seem to be silent over this huge fact lol.

[sdot_thadon]

Or perhaps the quality of basketball regressed in the USA to the point where the Euros are taking over? Obviously there's other factors like the collapse of the Soviet Union and globalization and the Internet that have made the NBA more accessible for the Euros as well, but I think there's a skill gap now among the younger players that perhaps wasn't as much of a factor back then, plus with less physicality & more spacing it's easier for smaller & less athletic players to produce in the modern NBA.

It hasn't regressed, anyone with eyes can see guys are more skilled across the board than ever. It's just us old farts upset because "they don't play the vintage style i grew up with anymore" " why would he shoot a step back 3 when he could shoot a contested midrange jumper instead?" Etc. Watch it. Don't watch it. Who cares, they are making more money than ever before even though a small segment of old fans "hate" the product now.

The game has evolved and I think the older generation is just aging out of fandom just like many have in previous generations. And nostalgia is a hell of a drug, ill tell you that. The europeans that are mvp candidates now could do it in that era too. They are great players, not scrubs that are seen as mvp level because of some perceived decline of society lol.

[Lakers Legend#32]

Taking the Sonics out of Seattle for Bumf#ck OKC is what killed the NBA.