Wade was better than Lebron 2005-2011

[StrongLurk]

I am honestly considering this premise simply because Wade had "it" and was far superior mentally than Lebron in the finals.

Wade (2005-2011 playoffs): 74 games, 25.7 PER, 57.6 TS%, .201 WS/48, 8.0 BPM

Lebron (2005-2011 playoffs): 92 games, 26.3 PER, 56.1 TS%, .222 WS/48, 9.8 BPM

Obviously the numbers are close, but Wade's finals numbers in 2006 and 2011 DESTROY Lebron's numbers from the 2007 and 2011 finals. Wade played his best ball in the finals and Lebron's was by far his worst.

I think Dwade having two injury riddled seasons in 2007 and 2008 really took the momentum from him being considering the premier guard/wing in the league at this time. 2008-2010, Kobe had his MVP season and then two FMVP, Lebron also had 2 MVPs.

Lebron was probably the most talented player in the league during this time, but he was very inconsistent mentally while Dwade and Kobe were very consistent. I know this is a long time ago and because of what Lebron did after 2011, people will say he was better than Dwade/Kobe during this time. I always thought Lebron was the best and simply didn't have a good supporting cast like Dwade/Kobe did in their finals appearances in 2006 and 2008-2010 (which is true), but then Lebron had maybe the worst choke of all time in 2011 so...maybe he really wasn't the "best".

Even in 2007 after his legendary game 5 against the pistons, Lebron in his NEXT FIVE GAMES after that (game 6 of ECF and all four finals games) put up 22/8/7 with 5.2 turnovers, on 35/18/71 splits (44.2 TS%, 12.9 game score). Thats 5 games in a row of putrid numbers and it kind of makes his game 5 performance look more like a fluke.

[ArbitraryWater]

Whats so hard about just saying they were pretty level?

Why do you want to say one of them was better?

Prime Wade was as good as many perimeter players ever

[StrongLurk]

Whats so hard about just saying they were pretty level?

Why do you want to say one of them was better?

Prime Wade was as good as many perimeter players ever

True, you could consider them on the same tier. That would be an uncommon opinion as most casual fans would consider Lebron a tier above Wade 2005-2011. So imagine actually realizing that WADE truly was better than Lebron over this time period. I mean, Wade has a real argument for it considering how awful Lebron was in his first 2 finals.

It makes Wade look very underrated from an all time perspective. We are saying here he was better than a GOAT candidate over a SIX YEAR playoff stretch, and Wade very well could have gotten his SECOND FMVP in 2011. Imagine how wild that would be - we would have a player who not only won a FMVP as the lead dog, but then won a SECOND FMVP over the most talented/biggest hyped player since Jordan.

[ILLsmak]

Wade was great in 04-05 and 05-06. Not sure after that. 11 was weird cuz Bron went to Wade’s team and I don’t think they knew how to play it.

-Smak

[Phoenix]

Yeah they were pretty much on the same tier from the time they joined the league till they joined up. Wade arguably being the best player in 2007 prior to his shoulder injury was a pretty common talking point at the time. People look at 2009 as his absolute peak but to my memory he was pretty much at that level after winning the 2006 chip and then got slowed by injuries.

[SouBeachTalents]

If you want to say they were equals, that’s a valid argument. To straight up say he was better over that timeframe though is fvcking stupid :lol

I’d say Wade was slightly better from ‘05 until his injury in ‘07, after that, LeBron was slightly better from ‘09 on. Just keeping it real, there’s a 0% chance Wade was leading those Cavs teams to 60+ wins like LeBron did, he didn’t even do that with Shaq.

OP went with the First Take click bait title, but it’s def inaccurate.

[RRR3]

Wade was better until LeBron entered his prime but basically no one is better than LeBron from 09-18.

[StrongLurk]

If you want to say they were equals, that’s a valid argument. To straight up say he was better over that timeframe though is fvcking stupid :lol

I’d say Wade was slightly better from ‘05 until his injury in ‘07, after that, LeBron was slightly better from ‘09 on. Just keeping it real, there’s a 0% chance Wade was leading those Cavs teams to 60+ wins like LeBron did, he didn’t even do that with Shaq.

OP went with the First Take click bait title, but it’s def inaccurate.

Just need to ask yourself. What version of 2005-2011 Lebron is leading the 2006 Heat team to a finals WIN? 2009 and 2010 Lebron is clearly talented enough, but then we simply can't count on Lebron being "Lebron" when the finals come which is a massive Achilles heel. Meanwhile, we KNOW any version of 05-2011 Wade would be a monster in the finals.

If we have three players all very similar impact abilities 05-11 (Kobe, Wade, Bron), but one of them blows in the finals, then how can we choose that person as the best player? I'd like to THINK the 2009 and 2010 versions of Lebron would be a beast if he was able to get to the finals (especially 09 Bron), but we simply can't assume that considering his 07 and 11 finals...

[Full Court]

Wade was better until LeBron entered his prime but basically no one is better than LeBron from 09-18.

Except Durant, Curry, and Kawhi. :roll:

:lebroncry:

[Phoenix]

Lebron was and always has been a better floor raiser than Wade. due to the swiss knife nature of his game. Wade wasn't going to get the 09 Cavs to 66 wins, and Lebron probably gets 50+ wins out of the 09 Heat team.

But Wade was definitely a more consistent big-game player during this period. Lebron had his moments like the 25 point in a row/48 point game 5 against Detroit, but it also seemed like he was prone to folding if he got punched in the mouth. I don't see him going HAM down 0-2 vs the Mavs in 06. I don't see him playing individually better against the Celtics in 2010 than Wade did, and Wade was also the best player in the 2011 playoff series against said team when they finally beat them.

It's really from 2012 onwards when Wade took a back seat and Lebron went on his run through 2018 that he elevated his legacy to a higher tier. Before that, more or less neck and neck. Wade's almost become underrated nowadays, I feel like he's gonna have a David Robinson style legacy where people forget how great this dude actually was in his prime( and he was a much better playoff performer than Robinson ever was).

[ArbitraryWater]

Just need to ask yourself. What version of 2005-2011 Lebron is leading the 2006 Heat team to a finals WIN?


You could say that for any perimeter player about the 2006 Heat.

Wade is getting a good shout if we say they were equals for this span, because 2009 / 2010 LeBron was better. Not by much, but he was better. Those were GOATly years. 09 Wade matched him in the RS but didnt do anything of note in the playoffs against the Hawks.

[StrongLurk]

You could say that for any perimeter player about the 2006 Heat.

Wade is getting a good shout if we say they were equals for this span, because 2009 / 2010 LeBron was better. Not by much, but he was better. Those were GOATly years. 09 Wade matched him in the RS but didnt do anything of note in the playoffs against the Hawks.

You have ignored my main point. Despite Lebron's absurd talent/impact in 2009 and 2010, we simply CAN'T expect that he would perform that way in the 2009 and 2010 finals based on his terrible showing in 2007/2011. With Wade, we absolutely can expect him to play like a top 5 player in the league based on his 2006 and 2011 performances.

IF you were gambling all your money, it's hard to go with Lebron in this case. Wade would feel more of a sure thing. Do we honestly think Wade would be as bad as Lebron was in the 2007 finals?

[Phoenix]

You have ignored my main point. Despite Lebron's absurd talent/impact in 2009 and 2010, we simply CAN'T expect that he would perform that way in the 2009 and 2010 finals based on his terrible showing in 2007/2011. With Wade, we absolutely can expect him to play like a top 5 player in the league based on his 2006 and 2011 performances.

IF you were gambling all your money, it's hard to go with Lebron in this case. Wade would feel more of a sure thing. Do we honestly think Wade would be as bad as Lebron was in the 2007 finals?

Generally speaking yes, but then you could also say Wade was relatively subpar( at least efficiency-wise) against the Hawks in 2009 for some inexplicable reason. That was pretty much an even money series and in those situations the best individual player should have been the difference. Bear in mind that Lebron beat the living shit out of that same team that year. Yes the Cavs were generally better than the Heat in 09, but I don't think the difference between Cleveland and Miami that year ( and certainly not a difference with Bron and Wade) was enough for the Cavs to sweep the Hawks and Miami to lose in 7. Of course matchups and all that but still, that should have been a Cleveland/Miami 2nd round series( and Bron/Wade facing off at this stage in their careers would have been epic as fukk).

So......it depends ( as I said before I do agree that Wade in this period was the more reliable 'big stakes' performer)?

[ArbitraryWater]

You have ignored my main point. Despite Lebron's absurd talent/impact in 2009 and 2010, we simply CAN'T expect that he would perform that way in the 2009 and 2010 finals based on his terrible showing in 2007/2011. With Wade, we absolutely can expect him to play like a top 5 player in the league based on his 2006 and 2011 performances.

IF you were gambling all your money, it's hard to go with Lebron in this case. Wade would feel more of a sure thing. Do we honestly think Wade would be as bad as Lebron was in the 2007 finals?

Bro, what are you talking about? Who cares? Youre saying Wade more likely performing well in a finals series based on the 2005/2007/2011 finals makes him a better player in that time span?


What?

[StrongLurk]

Bro, what are you talking about? Who cares? Youre saying Wade more likely performing well in a finals series based on the 2005/2007/2011 finals makes him a better player in that time span?


What?

Based on their total playoff performances, Lebron/Wade were essentially the same level of performer. However Lebron was unreliable mentally for the finals during this time while Wade was very reliable, so as sort of a "tie-breaker", I think Wade could definitely be considered the better player.

It's just interesting to consider since due to narratives and how long ago this was, many casual fans just ASSUME Lebron was better during this time. Many of us were watching a ton of NBA basketball during this time, but many fans under 25 really have underrated how amazing Wade was at his peak when healthy.

[SouBeachTalents]

Bro, what are you talking about? Who cares? Youre saying Wade more likely performing well in a finals series based on the 2005/2007/2011 finals makes him a better player in that time span?


What?
Yeah, that's frankly a moronic argument :lol LeBron would've likely struggled against the '07 Spurs, when he was still unpolished, they were the best defense in the league who could exploit his weaknesses, and he didn't have a viable 2nd option to alleviate the offensive burden, regardless of when that series took place.

Also, claiming one player is better than another over literally a 10 game sample size when we're comparing 7 years/600+ games is not an intelligent way to analyze basketball.

[StrongLurk]

Yeah, that's frankly a moronic argument :lol LeBron would've likely struggled against the '07 Spurs, when he was still unpolished, they were the best defense in the league who could exploit his weaknesses, and he didn't have a viable 2nd option to alleviate the offensive burden, regardless of when that series took place.

Also, claiming one player is better than another over literally a 10 game sample size when we're comparing 7 years/600+ games is not an intelligent way to analyze basketball.

Except I compared their entire playoff careers, not just the 10 game sample size. But those 10 games are by far the most important - where Wade rose to the occasion while Lebron completely shit himself.

Looking at the TOTALITY of their performances during this time and then the RESULTS, Wade absolutely can be considered the better playoff performer from 2005-2011. We don't have any evidence that Lebron would've played well in the finals before 2012.

[dankok8]

It's not an insane take that Wade was better than Lebron before 2012. And yes him performing better in the biggest games matters a lot.

[Phoenix]

Yeah, that's frankly a moronic argument :lol LeBron would've likely struggled against the '07 Spurs, when he was still unpolished, they were the best defense in the league who could exploit his weaknesses, and he didn't have a viable 2nd option to alleviate the offensive burden, regardless of when that series took place.



The funny thing about that, Wade in 2007( meaning if he was healthy) would have very likely performed better against the Spurs than Lebron did, but he wouldn't have gotten them to the finals to begin with lol. It's the floor vs ceiling raiser discussion with these two at that stage.

[aj1987]

They were on the same level and arguments could be made for a season or two that Wade was better. This thread is just moronic.


The funny thing about that, Wade in 2007( meaning if he was healthy) would have very likely performed better against the Spurs than Lebron did, but he wouldn't have gotten them to the finals to begin with lol. It's the floor vs ceiling raiser discussion with these two at that stage.

If Wade was 100%, I think they would've won in 6.

On a side note, Shaq actually got MVP votes that season. :roll:

[StrongLurk]

Which player are we picking?

Player A: 74 games, 25.7 PER, 57.6 TS%, .201 WS/48, 8.0 BPM

Player B: 92 games, 26.3 PER, 56.1 TS%, .222 WS/48, 9.8 BPM



Player A: Finals 1 (35/8/4/3/1, 57.2 TS%, 25.4 gamescore) - Finals 2 (26.5/7/5/1.5/1.5, 61.4 TS%, 22.7 gamescore)

Player B: Finals 1 (22/7/7/1/.5, 42.8 TS% 10.6 gamescore) - Finals 2 (18/7/7/2/.5 13.7, 54.1 TS%, 13.7 gamescore)

Player A's finals performances are WAY above player B. It's not even close. Player B's dropoff in the finals compared to the rest of the playoff games is massive.

[RRR3]

Wade was better from 05-07 when LeBron hadn’t hit his prime yet sure. Only dim bulb OP thinks he was better than peak LeBron though. LeBron was widey considered the best by 09 (besides delusional Kobe fans) that’s why it was such a huge deal he left and choked in the finals. Wade had a similar series to LeBron against the Mavericks literally the round prior against the Bulls but no one cared. They were the same doe.

[StrongLurk]

Wade was better from 05-07 when LeBron hadn’t hit his prime yet sure. Only dim bulb OP thinks he was better than peak LeBron though. LeBron was widey considered the best by 09 (besides delusional Kobe fans) that’s why it was such a huge deal he left and choked in the finals. Wade had a similar series to LeBron against the Mavericks literally the round prior against the Bulls but no one cared. They were the same doe.

Wade was better against the 2010 Celtics than Lebron was. Wade was also slightly better against the Celtics in 2011 too. Then Wade was FAR better against the Mavs in the finals. He was simply better against the best/highest competition.

[RRR3]

Wade was better against the 2010 Celtics than Lebron was. Wade was also slightly better against the Celtics in 2011 too. Then Wade was FAR better against the Mavs in the finals. He was simply better against the best/highest competition.
You’re dim. It’s ok, we can’t all be competent.

[Phoenix]

If Wade was 100%, I think they would've won in 6.

On a side note, Shaq actually got MVP votes that season. :roll:

You mean if he were on the Heat? I actually meant if Wade was in place of Bron on the Cavs ( didn't make that clear before). I think he performs better against the Spurs if they matched up, but the flipside is I doubt he gets that Cavs team to the finals for that match-up to even take place.

[dankok8]

Cavs beat two .500 teams and then a merely good Pistons team to make the Finals in 2007. I could see Wade doing it on the Cavs too. People forget now but those Cavs got there on the back of their dominant defense. Their offense led by Lebron was actually pretty subpar with a -2.8 rORtg in the playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

You mean if he were on the Heat? I actually meant if Wade was in place of Bron on the Cavs ( didn't make that clear before). I think he performs better against the Spurs if they matched up, but the flipside is I doubt he gets that Cavs team to the finals for that match-up to even take place.

Why couldn't Wade take those Cavs to the finals? The Cavs had a weak path to get there and Dwade already destroyed the better version of the Pistons (2006 version). It's totally possible.

[Manny98]

05 - LeBron was slightly better
06 - Wade was the best player on the planet that year imo
07 - Wade
08 - LeBron
09 - LeBron
10 - LeBron but it's very close
11 - Wade

[John8204]

Wade would not have won in Cleveland, Lebron would have won in Miami. Wade is a top fifty player but people forget that he's a win on a team guy not a franchise build around guy like Lebron.

[Phoenix]

Why couldn't Wade take those Cavs to the finals? The Cavs had a weak path to get there and Dwade already destroyed the better version of the Pistons (2006 version). It's totally possible.

Why couldn't Wade get the 2009 Heat over the Hawks when he was clearly the best player on the floor? I can't see Lebron that year taking that team to only 43 wins and losing in the first round.

But not to move goal posts, I already explained that in the period we're talking about, if you give them roughly equal talent Lebron's swiss knife skillset is likely going to do more with less( get the team more season wins, higher seeding, further in the playoffs). Wade was a bit more polished as a scorer and less prone to inexplicably playing under par, so I think he was generally a better big game player but I don't think he was Lebron's equal as a floor raiser. From Lebron's 3rd year till like 2018, you could pretty much give him any 4 players and he's going to get you minimum 50 wins, especially in the east. Not sure you can say the same of Wade and we can only speculate in the absence of any examples of him doing so.

I mean is it 'possible' he takes the 07 Cavs to the finals? Well not to be reductionist but anything is, and if you want to push a particular argument you'll double down on it.

[StrongLurk]

Why couldn't Wade get the 2009 Heat over the Hawks when he was clearly the best player on the floor? I can't see Lebron that year taking that team to only 43 wins and losing in the first round.

But not to move goal posts, I already explained that in the period we're talking about, if you give them roughly equal talent Lebron's swiss knife skillset is likely going to do more with less( get the team more season wins, higher seeding, further in the playoffs). Wade was a bit more polished as a scorer and less prone to inexplicably playing under par, so I think he was generally a better big game player but I don't think he was Lebron's equal as a floor raiser. From Lebron's 3rd year till like 2018, you could pretty much give him any 4 players and he's going to get you minimum 50 wins, especially in the east. Not sure you can say the same of Wade and we can only speculate in the absence of any examples of him doing so.

I mean is it 'possible' he takes the 07 Cavs to the finals? Well not to be reductionist but anything is, and if you want to push a particular argument you'll double down on it.

Why would anyone take Lebron over Wade when we KNOW Lebron couldn't get you a championship between 05-2011? We know Wade COULD be the guy to carry a team to a championship.

Wade's 06 finals is one of the biggest carry jobs of all time.

[Phoenix]

Why would anyone take Lebron over Wade when we KNOW Lebron couldn't get you a championship between 05-2011? We know Wade COULD be the guy to carry a team to a championship.

Wade's 06 finals is one of the biggest carry jobs of all time.

You're making that statement as if Lebron had anything remotely comparable to even end of prime Shaq in this period. Shaq was 2nd in MVP in 05 and first team All-NBA in 06. No he wasn't Lakers Shaq, but he was comfortably light-years ahead of anything Lebron was working with. I mean, is Wade winning a title on the Cavs between 2005 and 2011? You know the answer to that. And Wade was my favorite player at that time and one of my favorites in general. But let's not over-sell it. I'm here saying to you he was the better big game player. I'm also saying I don't think he carries average talent like Lebron did even if it didn't result in a title. We saw Wade with average talent in 2009 and 2010, a lower playoff seed and first round exits.

Are you arguing that Wade on the Cavs between 2005 and 2011 wins a title? Do we know if Wade even positions that team over the course of the year to be a high seed?

[StrongLurk]

You're making that statement as if Lebron had anything remotely comparable to even end of prime Shaq in this period. Shaq was 2nd in MVP in 05 and first team All-NBA in 06. No he wasn't Lakers Shaq, but he was comfortably light-years ahead of anything Lebron was working with. I mean, is Wade winning a title on the Cavs between 2005 and 2011? You know the answer to that. And Wade was my favorite player at that time and one of my favorites in general. But let's not over-sell it. I'm here saying to you he was the better big game player. I'm also saying I don't think he carries average talent like Lebron did even if it didn't result in a title. We saw Wade with average talent in 2009 and 2010, a lower playoff seed and first round exits.

Are you arguing that Wade on the Cavs between 2005 and 2011 wins a title? Do we know if Wade even positions that team over the course of the year to be a high seed?

Wade in the 06 finals put up 35/8/4/3/1, 57.2 TS%, 25.4 gamescore. Shaq put up 14/10/3/.5/.8, 53.2 TS%, 9.6 gamescore.

Shaq was NOTHING compared to Wade in those finals. Yes Shaq was good the rest of the playoffs, but Wade HARD CARRIED to a finals WIN in 06.

There is no way we can take any version of Lebron before 2012 and feel CERTAIN that he could do what Wade did in 06. Lebron had all the needed talent to win in 2011 and he straight up choked, so we can't rely on the argument of "lebron didn't have enough talent".

Look at the finals performance between Wade/Lebron. Wade completely stomps Lebron's performances. How can someone take Lebron over Wade when Lebron not just lost both of his first 2 finals appearances, but he individually was nowhere near superstar level.

Wade: Finals 1 (35/8/4/3/1, 57.2 TS%, 25.4 gamescore) - Finals 2 (26.5/7/5/1.5/1.5, 61.4 TS%, 22.7 gamescore)

Lebron: Finals 1 (22/7/7/1/.5, 42.8 TS% 10.6 gamescore) - Finals 2 (18/7/7/2/.5 13.7, 54.1 TS%, 13.7 gamescore)

[John8204]

Why would anyone take Lebron over Wade when we KNOW Lebron couldn't get you a championship between 05-2011? We know Wade COULD be the guy to carry a team to a championship.

Wade's 06 finals is one of the biggest carry jobs of all time.

Wade had Antoine Walker, Shawn Marion, Jason Williams, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Shaq, Haslam, Jermaine O'Neal etc..

Also in 06...who was carrying who because when I think of that year I think of the officiating and most calls ever for one team.

[StrongLurk]

Wade had Antoine Walker, Shawn Marion, Jason Williams, Gary Payton, Alonzo Mourning, Shaq, Haslam, Jermaine O'Neal etc..

Also in 06...who was carrying who because when I think of that year I think of the officiating and most calls ever for one team.

Wade had a lot of great defensive support for sure, but Wade himself had 3.7 stocks per game in the 06 finals which lead the team.

Just look at the damn boxscore, I feel like everyone forgot how those finals went. https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2006-nba-finals-heat-vs-mavericks.html

Wade legit had an MJ style carry in those finals. 34.7ppg on 57.2 TS%. The NEXT THREE scorers on the team combined for 36.3 ppg on much worse efficiency.

Again we can't use the argument of "Wade had more talent", because Lebron was literally Wade's own TEAMMATE in 2011 and STILL blew it in the finals. It's pretty clear he had some sort of mental block he needed to get over.

[aj1987]

You mean if he were on the Heat? I actually meant if Wade was in place of Bron on the Cavs ( didn't make that clear before). I think he performs better against the Spurs if they matched up, but the flipside is I doubt he gets that Cavs team to the finals for that match-up to even take place.

That's a tough one. I can actually see him sweep the Wizards and Nets and beat the Pistons in 5, but the Spurs in place of LeBron? That would've been a very close one. I can see him winning in 7. This is a hypothetical though and we're assuming a 100% healthy Wade. Dude was nasty those couple of years.

[tpols]

Stronglurk brings up a lot of strong points in this thread. And this time fortunately it's a non obvious point.

Not only did Lebron crash out in the 2007 and 2011 NBA Finals to an absurd degree, but his worst ever playoff series may have come in 2008 vs Boston... and his team almost won anyway.

Wade actually was better but injuries forced him to take a backseat. And Lebron purposely quitting in 2011 because a Wade FMVP at that moment would have been devast8ng for his brand.

Would've put Wade up 2 Batman titles to Lebron 1 Robin. A player seeking GOAT status can't allow that.

[Phoenix]

Wade in the 06 finals put up 35/8/4/3/1, 57.2 TS%, 25.4 gamescore. Shaq put up 14/10/3/.5/.8, 53.2 TS%, 9.6 gamescore.

Shaq was NOTHING compared to Wade in those finals. Yes Shaq was good the rest of the playoffs, but Wade HARD CARRIED to a finals WIN in 06.

There is no way we can take any version of Lebron before 2012 and feel CERTAIN that he could do what Wade did in 06. Lebron had all the needed talent to win in 2011 and he straight up choked, so we can't rely on the argument of "lebron didn't have enough talent".

Look at the finals performance between Wade/Lebron. Wade completely stomps Lebron's performances. How can someone take Lebron over Wade when Lebron not just lost both of his first 2 finals appearances, but he individually was nowhere near superstar level.

Wade: Finals 1 (35/8/4/3/1, 57.2 TS%, 25.4 gamescore) - Finals 2 (26.5/7/5/1.5/1.5, 61.4 TS%, 22.7 gamescore)

Lebron: Finals 1 (22/7/7/1/.5, 42.8 TS% 10.6 gamescore) - Finals 2 (18/7/7/2/.5 13.7, 54.1 TS%, 13.7 gamescore)

All of that is known and doesn't underline my point that the team isn't likely to win 52 wins, the 2nd seed or get to the finals without Shaq still being a first team all-nba guy. The fact that Wade balled out IN THE FINALS, in other words a big game player, is exactly the point I'm making. But do I think Wade without Shaq in 2006 takes them to the finals with Antoine Walker, Jason Williams, Haslem and co? No, I don't. You're conflating floor raiser and big game player. Lebron was a better floor raiser with average talent. He's better at getting you to the big stage. Wade was generally better ON the big stage and less prone to mental lapses affecting his play. This isn't conjuncture. This is what we actually saw play out. You're simply taking what you think 'could' happen to push your argument for what is ultimately an unproven-able point. I get it, we all do it.

Even the point you made about Lebron's 2011 finals.....again.....makes my point about Wade being the more reliable big game player during this period. Nothing you're saying is really taking away from that core premise, quite the opposite in fact.

[Phoenix]

Stronglurk brings up a lot of strong points in this thread. And this time fortunately it's a non obvious point.

Not only did Lebron crash out in the 2007 and 2011 NBA Finals to an absurd degree, but his worst ever playoff series may have come in 2008 vs Boston... and his team almost won anyway.

Wade actually was better but injuries forced him to take a backseat. And Lebron purposely quitting in 2011 because a Wade FMVP at that moment would have been devast8ng for his brand.

Would've put Wade up 2 Batman titles to Lebron 1 Robin. A player seeking GOAT status can't allow that.

Wade played better against Boston than either Kobe or Lebron in his period. His slashing style was a tougher cover for the Celtics.

[StrongLurk]

All of that is known and doesn't underline my point that the team isn't likely to win 52 wins, the 2nd seed or get to the finals without Shaq still being a first team all-nba guy. The fact that Wade balled out IN THE FINALS, in other words a big game player, is exactly the point I'm making. But do I think Wade without Shaq in 2006 takes them to the finals with Antoine Walker, Jason Williams, Haslem and co? No, I don't. You're conflating floor raiser and big game player. Lebron was a better floor raiser with average talent. He's better at getting you to the big stage. Wade was generally better ON the big stage and less prone to mental lapses affecting his play. This isn't conjuncture. This is what we actually saw play out. You're simply taking what you think 'could' happen to push your argument for what is ultimately an unproven-able point. I get it, we all do it.

Even the point you made about Lebron's 2011 finals.....again.....makes my point about Wade being the more reliable big game player during this period. Nothing you're saying is really taking away from that core premise, quite the opposite in fact.

What is your evidence that supports the idea that Lebron could win a ring as the lead player/1st option before 2012? What good is being a "floor raiser" if you completely crash out in the finals? At least Wade gives you a great chance to WIN once you get to the finals.

So why would you ever choose Lebron over Wade before 2012? I get that Wade had Shaq, but Shaq in the 05 and 06 postseasons had big drops in performance compared to his regular season self. Wade was better in the 05 and 06 playoffs compared to Shaq. And again, Lebron had WADE himself as a teammate. Wade in 2011 was better than 05/06 Shaq and Lebron still blew it.

[Phoenix]

What is your evidence that supports the idea that Lebron could win a ring as the lead player/1st option before 2012? What good is being a "floor raiser" if you completely crash out in the finals? At least Wade gives you a great chance to WIN once you get to the finals.

So why would you ever choose Lebron over Wade before 2012?

Where is my post where I made this claim? Lebron didn't win a title as first option before 2012, so why would I make such an argument?? I said I think Lebron with average talent could get 50 wins out of a team( and we saw that in 2009 and 2010, 60+ wins in fact). I also said Wade with average talent in those years was barely above .500 and out in the first round. That.....happened.

I said I don't think Wade wins a title playing for the Cavs in that period or without Shaq( and if you feel compelled to give us the finals stats again, read what I said about getting to the finals vs performing once there. Slowly if necessary because you're bringing up shit I'm not even inferring). That's a theory, like you saying Wade could have gotten the 07 Cavs to the finals. Both hypotheticals about shit from nearly 20 years ago. How much energy do you intent to invest proving the un-proveable?

Also, where did I actually say I would take either guy over the other? I've said at least 3 times I consider them generally on the same tier. Be ok with me not agreeing with your premise.

[StrongLurk]

Where is my post where I made this claim? Lebron didn't win a title as first option before 2012, so why would I make such an argument?? I said I think Lebron with average talent could get 50 wins out of a team( and we saw that in 2009 and 2010, 60+ wins in fact). I also said Wade with average talent in those years was barely above .500 and out in the first round. That.....happened.

I said I don't think Wade wins a title playing for the Cavs in that period or without Shaq( and if you feel compelled to give us the finals stats again, read what I said about getting to the finals vs performing once there. Slowly if necessary because you're bringing up shit I'm not even inferring). That's a theory, like you saying Wade could have gotten the 07 Cavs to the finals. Both hypotheticals about shit from nearly 20 years ago. How much energy do you intent to invest proving the un-proveable?

Also, where did I actually say I would take either guy over the other? I've said at least 3 times I consider them generally on the same tier. Be ok with me not agreeing with your premise.

I guess my issue is you say Lebron/Wade were on the same tier, but I haven't seen a compelling argument from you to support your statement. Idk why you would consider a big game player like Wade to be on the same tier as a non-big game player like Lebron?

[RRR3]

If a player doesn't have a ring it means they're literally incapable of winning one. StrongDork ladies and gentleman :oldlol:


DUMB AS A POST

[StrongLurk]

If a player doesn't have a ring it means they're literally incapable of winning one. StrongDork ladies and gentleman :oldlol:


DUMB AS A POST

You are just trolling at this point.

[Phoenix]

I guess my issue is you say Lebron/Wade were on the same tier, but I haven't seen a compelling argument from you to support your statement. Idk why you were consider a big game player like Wade to be on the same tier as a non-big game player like Lebron?

I mean your premise is Wade was better overall so anything contrary to that idea is going to cause you issue. And frankly, I don't know what a compelling argument to you would look like if you're hard-coded in your viewpoint. When was the last time you made a statement on here, and someone said something so convincing that 180'd your opinion? Doesn't tend to happen on message boards when everyone is more concerned about being or appearing right.

I think Wade was positioned for team success earlier, and he maxed out the situation. We don't know what happens if Lebron joins the Heat in 03 and Wade the Cavs, and I've invested enough in that hypothetical. I use what Wade did in 2009 and 2010 as evidence that his individual greatness didn't translate to much from a team POV when matched with average talent those years. I use the same years as evidence of what Lebron could do with average talent, as far as leading a team over a course of a year to a top seed. Their paths weren't 1:1 so I don't look at what one did in a certain circumstance as evidence of being better or worse when results and accolades are circumstantial. What I saw were two guys at roughly the same level, each a little better or worse in different ways, one year a little better or worse, but over 6 years? Same tier to me. It's not like comparing Jokic with Tatum where the latter is great but there's levels to this. This is more like nitpicking between Jokic and Giannis. You can argue all day long for whoever you think is better, but they're pretty much on the same tier.

I wish we had gotten a Wade/Lebron playoff match-up in the period you're talking about. Would have made for a pretty solid bullet-point in this conversation. Somehow they shared the same conference on different teams for like 12-13 years and the stars never aligned.

[RRR3]

You are just trolling at this point.
That's literally what you're doing in this thread. No one thought Wade was better in 2011, look at the vastly different response to them having bad series (Wade in the ECF, LeBron in the Finals). LeBron became prime LeBron in 2009, sure Wade was better than pre-prime LeBron, but I'm not sure anyone is better than 09-18 LeBron. One horrible series is not evidence of that. Unless you think Chauncey Billups was better than Kobe in 2004.

[StrongLurk]

I mean your premise is Wade was better overall so anything contrary to that idea is going to cause you issue. And frankly, I don't know what a compelling argument to you would look like if you're hard-coded in your viewpoint. When was the last time you made a statement on here, and someone said something so convincing that 180'd your opinion? Doesn't tend to happen on message boards when everyone is more concerned about being or appearing right.

I think Wade was positioned for team success earlier, and he maxed out the situation. We don't know what happens if Lebron joins the Heat in 03 and Wade the Cavs, and I've invested enough in that hypothetical. I use what Wade did in 2009 and 2010 as evidence that his individual greatness didn't translate to much from a team POV when matched with average talent those years. I use the same years as evidence of what Lebron could do, as far as leading a team over a course of a year to a top seed. Their paths weren't 1:1 so I don't look at what one did in a certain circumstance as evidence of being better or worse when results and accolades are circumstantial. What I saw were two guys at roughly the same level, each a little better or worse in different ways, one year a little better or worse, but over 6 years? Same tier to me. It's not like comparing Jokic with Tatum where the latter is great but there's levels to this. This is more like nitpicking between Jokic and Giannis. You can argue all day long for whoever you think is better, but they're pretty much on the same tier.

Okay let me try to meet you in this debate a little bit.

How about I say Lebron/Wade were the same tier 2005-2011. BUT, you have to pick one player over the other to be your 1st option. Who are you picking?

Also a bit background on myself. I am not a Lebron hater, Lebron is my guy, but I don't like how underrated Wade has become. He had one of the best 1st option rings of all time in 2006, which is 6 whole years before Lebron could get his 1st option ring.

So many casual fans literally think about Wade only related to his years on the 2011-2014 Heat which is lame because Wade clearly got much worse over those years.

Wade not only has an MJ-level ring in 2006, but he EASILY could've got a FMVP in 2011 over a GOAT-candidate in Lebron. That is INSANE performance on Wade's end.

[RRR3]

Okay let me try to meet you in this debate a little bit.

How about I say Lebron/Wade were the same tier 2005-2011. BUT, you have to pick one player over the other to be your 1st option. Who are you picking?
Wade from 2005-07. LeBron from 09-11. Not sure about 08 because Wade was hurt a lot probably LeBron by default to the injuries even though he wasn't in his prime until 09. You keep using this time frame as if LeBron was the same player throughout all of it which is incredibly stupid because he very obviously leveled up a massive amount starting in 09. There are quite a few players I'd take over 05-07 LeBron, he was still very early in his career and developing his game.

[StrongLurk]

Wade from 2005-07. LeBron from 09-11. Not sure about 08 because Wade was hurt a lot probably LeBron by default to the injuries even though he wasn't in his prime until 09. You keep using this time frame as if LeBron was the same player throughout all of it which is incredibly stupid because he very obviously leveled up a massive amount starting in 09. There are quite a few players I'd take over 05-07 LeBron, he was still very early in his career and developing his game.

I say "pick one player" and you pick 2. Excellent troll.

[bison]

You could make arguments for either but at the end of the day GODBE was better than both in that same time period.

[RRR3]

I say "pick one player" and you pick 2. Excellent troll.
Because you're asking about two different versions of LeBron while Wade was relatively static over this time period. It's an unfair and disingenuous question. It's a ridiculous time frame to use for LeBron.

[StrongLurk]

Because you're asking about two different versions of LeBron while Wade was relatively static over this time period. It's an unfair and disingenuous question. It's a ridiculous time frame to use for LeBron.

So the time frame in which Wade was better than Lebron is ridiculous to use?

[Phoenix]

Okay let me try to meet you in this debate a little bit.

How about I say Lebron/Wade were the same tier 2005-2011. BUT, you have to pick one player over the other to be your 1st option. Who are you picking?

Also a bit background on myself. I am not a Lebron hater, Lebron is my guy, but I don't like how underrated Wade has become. He had one of the best 1st option rings of all time in 2006, which is 6 whole years before Lebron could get his 1st option ring.

So many casual fans literally think about Wade only related to his years on the 2011-2014 Heat which is lame because Wade clearly got much worse over those years.

Wade not only has an MJ-level ring in 2006, but he EASILY could've got a FMVP in 2011 over a GOAT-candidate in Lebron. That is INSANE performance on Wade's end.

Bruh Wade's one of my all-time favorites. I said on one of the earlier pages he's becoming underrated.

To answer your question, it depends both on the year and team roster. Wade was more polished from 2005 to 2007 but he very easily played on a better roster/had a significantly better 2nd option. I'm hesitant to say Lebron couldn't have won in 2006 with Shaq. Would he have had Wade's finals performances. I would venture no....Wade being better in big stakes to keep the same energy as prior posts. But Lebron on that team is its own dynamic and unburdened from the shackles of being the team leader would free him up to just play ball. And we don't know if the same scenario plays out ( Mavs going up 2-0) that would result in Lebron having to go ape-shit like Wade did. We do know he was capable of it( 2007 vs Pistons). Not sure what brought it out in some games and buried it in others along the way. Wade was injured in 2008 that's not even really part of the conversation. 2009 and 2010? Veeeerrry slightly lean Lebron. 2011, pretty much neck and neck for the season. Lebron has the historical finals meltdown but they may not even get to the finals if he doesn't make up for Wade being bad against Chicago( Bosh was pretty good that series from memory). Bron was better against Philly, Wade a bit better against the Celtics.

Team roster especially in 2009 and 2010. Whichever team those years won 20 games, I'd probably take Lebron. A team that was already pretty good like...I don't know... the Hawks with Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Horford? Would probably take Wade, not that I think Lebron on that team is bad or considerably worse off as far as results. They kind of do enough different that it depends on the kind of team I'm either building or already have.

[RRR3]

So the time frame in which Wade was better than Lebron is ridiculous to use?
He wasn't better from 09-11 that's the point. It's like me asking "Giannis or KG" and then using Giannis' entire peak while also including KG's years before he even became a superstar. LeBron was not the age Wade was in 2006 until 2009 so it's not an even comparison. The equivalent to 05-11 Wade for LeBron would be 08-14, and we all know LeBron comes out ahead there. Unless you're going to stupidly claim players don't improve significantly during their early to mid 20s.

[StrongLurk]

Bruh Wade's one of my all-time favorites. I said on one of the earlier pages he's becoming underrated.

To answer your question, it depends both on the year and team roster. Wade was more polished from 2005 to 2007 but he very easily played on a better roster/had a significantly better 2nd option. I'm hesitant to say Lebron couldn't have won in 2006 with Shaq. Would he have had Wade's finals performances. I would venture no....Wade being better in big stakes to keep the same energy as prior posts. But Lebron on that team is its own dynamic and unburdened from the shackles of being the team leader would free him up to just play ball. And we don't know if the same scenario plays out ( Mavs going up 2-0) that would result in Lebron having to go ape-shit like Wade did. We do know he was capable of it( 2007 vs Pistons). Not sure what brought it out in some games and buried it in others along the way. Wade was injured in 2008 that's not even really part of the conversation. 2009 and 2010? Verrry slightly lean Lebron. 2011. Pretty much neck and neck for the season. Lebron has the historical finals meltdown but they may not even get to the finals if he doesn't make up for Wade being bad against Chicago( Bosh was pretty good that series from memory).

Team roster especially in 2009 and 2010. Whichever team those years won 20 games, I'd probably take Lebron. A team that was already pretty good like...I don't know... the Hawks with Joe Johnson, Josh Smith and Horford? Would probably take Wade, not that I think Lebron on that team is bad or considerably worse off as far as results. They kind of do enough different that it depends on the kind of team I'm either building or already have.

Honestly the 2011 playoff run illustrates my OP perfectly. Lebron/Wade are neck and neck, but ultimately Wade played better at the highest stage.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.

Wade has Lebron beat everywhere, especially when considering how the finals went down. We've got posters saying Lebron was better than Wade once 2009 rolled around, so how do they explain 2011? Wade outperformed Lebron who was a 2-time MVP winner AND Lebron had already played in one finals.

Let's face it, Lebron was prone to mental weakness before 2012 and that makes all the difference. Wade never had that problem.

[StrongLurk]

He wasn't better from 09-11 that's the point. It's like me asking "Giannis or KG" and then using Giannis' entire peak while also including KG's years before he even became a superstar. LeBron was not the age Wade was in 2006 until 2009 so it's not an even comparison. The equivalent to 05-11 Wade for LeBron would be 08-14, and we all know LeBron comes out ahead there. Unless you're going to stupidly claim players don't improve significantly during their early to mid 20s.

Honestly the 2011 playoff run illustrates my OP perfectly. Lebron/Wade are neck and neck, but ultimately Wade played better at the highest stage.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.

Wade has Lebron beat everywhere, especially when considering how the finals went down. How do you claim Lebron was better than Wade after how the 2011 playoffs went down? Wade outperformed Lebron who was a 2-time MVP winner AND Lebron had already played in one finals. Lebron had ZERO excuses for his shitty performance.

Let's face it, Lebron was prone to mental weakness before 2012 and that makes all the difference. Wade never had that problem. It's hilarious you make excuses like oh Wade was older yada yada. The fact that you make excuses for Lebron honestly supports MY argument that Wade was better.

[RRR3]

Honestly the 2011 playoff run illustrates my OP perfectly. Lebron/Wade are neck and neck, but ultimately Wade played better at the highest stage.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.

Wade has Lebron beat everywhere, especially when considering how the finals went down. We've got posters saying Lebron was better than Wade once 2009 rolled around, so how do they explain 2011? Wade outperformed Lebron who was a 2-time MVP winner AND Lebron had already played in one finals.

Let's face it, Lebron was prone to mental weakness before 2012 and that makes all the difference. Wade never had that problem.
Now do the ECF. Wade was better but you hold LeBron to a higher standard :lol

Make it make sense.

LeBron choking in the 2011 finals was such a huge deal BECAUSE he was the best player in the world. He had to be great or he would have got shit from the whole world. Wade has never dealt with the same pressure and you know it.

[StrongLurk]

Now do the ECF. Wade was better but you hold LeBron to a higher standard :lol

Make it make sense.

LeBron choking in the 2011 finals was such a huge deal BECAUSE he was the best player in the world. He had to be great or he would have got shit. Wade has never dealt with the same pressure.

What? The numbers I posted were for the entire 2011 playoff run.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.

[RRR3]

What? The numbers I posted were for the entire 2011 playoff run.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.
Yeah they're affected significantly by LeBron having an all-time bad finals. Not to mention his stats were deflated because he was accommodating Wade a lot the first 3 rounds. LeBron held the MVP to 6% shooting, you are seriously forgetting how broken LeBron was at his best. If Wade was better it wouldn't be considered such a massive choke that he outplayed LeBron. Like Phoenix said, no version of Wade is leading the dogshit rosters LeBron had in Cleveland to back to back 60+ win seasons. I'm not sure anyone ever would. 09 LeBron is arguably the best he ever was. Look at the MVP voting for the two of them from 09-11, LeBron was considered better, it's just a fact. You are having to bring in prior years to make a point. Wade wasn't even considered better than Kobe tbqh (he was better but people didn't think he was).

[StrongLurk]

Yeah they're affected significantly by LeBron having an all-time bad finals. Not to mention his stats were deflated because he was accommodating Wade a lot the first 3 rounds. LeBron held the MVP to 6% shooting, you are seriously forgetting how broken LeBron was at his best. If Wade was better it wouldn't be considered such a massive choke that he outplayed LeBron. Like Phoenix said, no version of Wade is leading the dogshit rosters LeBron had in Cleveland to back to back 60+ win seasons. I'm not sure anyone ever would. 09 LeBron is arguably the best he ever was. Look at the MVP voting for the two of them from 09-11, LeBron was considered better, it's just a fact. You are having to bring in prior years to make a point. Wade wasn't even considered better than Kobe tbqh (he was better but people didn't think he was).

09 Lebron was insane, but we simply don't know how he would've fared going against an extremely hungry 2009 Lakers team led by Kobe in the finals. It's hard to imagine that version of Lebron not performing well...but then Lebron's 2011 meltdown was unimaginable too before it indeed happened.

Also a lot of your points are based on REGULAR season performance, which really doesn't matter much when talking about two massive talents like Lebron and Wade. The playoffs/finals performances are what matters for them.

Wade in 2010 was better against the Celtics compared to Lebron (their main competition). Wade was also better in the 2011 playoffs too.

Idk man, you are basically saying Wade was better 05-07, injured in 08, Lebron was better in 09, but now we have Wade being better in 2010 and 2011...seems like Wade was legit the better playoff performer.

[Phoenix]

Honestly the 2011 playoff run illustrates my OP perfectly. Lebron/Wade are neck and neck, but ultimately Wade played better at the highest stage.

Wade 2011: 26.3 PER, 57 TS%, .216 WS/48, 8.4 BPM

Lebron 2011: 23.7 PER, 56.3 TS%, .198 WS/48, 7.1 BPM.

Wade has Lebron beat everywhere, especially when considering how the finals went down. We've got posters saying Lebron was better than Wade once 2009 rolled around, so how do they explain 2011? Wade outperformed Lebron who was a 2-time MVP winner AND Lebron had already played in one finals.

Let's face it, Lebron was prone to mental weakness before 2012 and that makes all the difference. Wade never had that problem.

Which plays into what I've said multiple times: Big game setting? I would trust Wade more here held at knife-point. But Bron playing worse in these select occasions for me doesn't make him worse overall across 6 years when he was also better in other scenarios. I get your point, you place the higher value on the more reliable 'big game' performer. But we're talking specific moments vs across the spectrum of 6 years where you account for everything and not just curated moments. For me 'better' comes into play when the people being compared are clearly on different tiers no matter the context. That's an argument you would make for, like I said before, Jokic and Tatum. Lebron was historically great in 2009 and 2010 in terms of overall level of play, so the idea that Wade was better in those years falls short for me unless he led the Heat to a title or something and beat Lebron along the way, but he was losing to the Hawks in the first round. If the team success outside of him playing with late-prime Shaq was more on par I'd be more inclined to lean the way you do.

[RRR3]

duh-uh-uh-uhh-uhhh
No use arguing with trolls, idk why I do it.

[RRR3]

Which plays into what I've said multiple times: Big game setting? I would trust Wade more here held at knife-point. But Bron playing worse in these select occasions for me doesn't make him worse overall across 6 years when he was also better in other scenarios. I get your point, you place the higher value on the more reliable 'big game' performer. But we're talking specific moments vs across the spectrum of 6 years where you account for everything and not just curated moments. For me 'better' comes into play when the people being compared are clearly on different tiers no matter the context. That's an argument you would make for, like I said before, Jokic and Tatum. Lebron was historically great in 2009 and 2010 in terms of overall level of play, so the idea that Wade was better in those years falls short for me unless he led the Heat to a title or something and beat Lebron along the way, but he was losing to the Hawks in the first round. If the team success outside of him playing with late-prime Shaq was more on par I'd be more inclined to lean the way you do.
LeBron also obliterated that same Hawks team Wade lost to and absolutely annihilated him in terms of stats but he's conveniently leaving that out in favor of a series Wade lost in 5 games the next year because he had better stats than LeBron did against the same team. Cherry picking and not the same standard held to either player, LeBron got shit for averaging like 39/8/8 on elite efficiency in the 2009 ECF, when has Wade EVER been held to that standard?

[Phoenix]

LeBron also obliterated that same Hawks team Wade lost to and absolutely annihilated him in terms of stats but he's conveniently leaving that out in favor of a series Wade lost in 5 games the next year. Cherry picking.

Yeah I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts...

[RRR3]

Yeah I mentioned that in one of my earlier posts...
And like I just said, LeBron gets shit for losing a series against Orlando that was statistically one of the all time dominant series performances. I have never seen any other player get shit for a series like that, Wade absolutely was not held to the same standard as 09-11 LeBron. No one cared he was godawful versus the Bulls in the 2011 ECF. No one. People STILL care about LeBron's shitshow against the Mavs. I also find it unlikely LeBron has a series like that against the Lakers in 09 or 10, because anyone applying context can see LeBron would not be as passive if he was the only source of offense like he was on those Cavs teams. Would he have been great? who knows but he wouldn't have been standing in the corner, he was the point guard for all intents and purposes.

[StrongLurk]

Which plays into what I've said multiple times: Big game setting? I would trust Wade more here held at knife-point. But Bron playing worse in these select occasions for me doesn't make him worse overall across 6 years when he was also better in other scenarios. I get your point, you place the higher value on the more reliable 'big game' performer. But we're talking specific moments vs across the spectrum of 6 years where you account for everything and not just curated moments. For me 'better' comes into play when the people being compared are clearly on different tiers no matter the context. That's an argument you would make for, like I said before, Jokic and Tatum. Lebron was historically great in 2009 and 2010 in terms of overall level of play, so the idea that Wade was better in those years falls short for me unless he led the Heat to a title or something and beat Lebron along the way, but he was losing to the Hawks in the first round. If the team success outside of him playing with late-prime Shaq was more on par I'd be more inclined to lean the way you do.

"But Bron playing worse in these select occasions for me doesn't make him worse overall across 6 years when he was also better in other scenarios. I get your point, you place the higher value on the more reliable 'big game' performer. But we're talking specific moments vs across the spectrum of 6 years where you account for everything and not just curated moments."

So you are boiling down TWO FINALS SERIES as specific/curated "moments"? That's ridiculous. Small sample size or not, the finals are THE most prestigious games and clearly matter the most when looking at superstar 1st options. In my OP, I shared the whole 05-11 playoff numbers and the finals numbers, so I am not nitpicking.

Also, to be clear I am talking about playoffs, not regular season. You and a few other posters have mentioned Lebron's regular season performances, but those don't really matter for superstars like Lebron and Wade.

Lebron in the 2010 playoffs did nothing "historically" great. In fact, Wade played better in the 1st round against the Celtics than Lebron did in the second round vs the Celtics. So Wade could easily take 2010 as the better performer.

1. Wade was better in 05 playoff (Lebron didn't make it so hard to compare there).
2. Wade was better in 06 playoffs
3. Wade was injured in 07 playoffs, but I will give 07 to Lebron. Wade had two surguries on shoulder/knee right as the Heat were knocked out
4. Wade missed 08 playoffs due to injury, so again Lebron can get this by default but Lebron was AWFUL against the Celtics in 2008 semis
5. Lebron was better in 2009 playoffs
6. Wade/Lebron could be a tie for 2010 playoffs. Both players quickly lost to Celtics but Wade was much better than Lebron vs Celtics.
7. Wade was better in 2011 playoffs.

Basically Lebron was better than healthy Wade ONE TIME during 2005-2011, which was the 2009 playoffs. Wade was better every other time which is massive. Plus Wade was so much better than Lebron in the finals.

I said it early in the thread, but injuries totally derailed Wade for two years straight which allowed Lebron more spotlight in the East.

[RRR3]

Wade was better because of a 5 game sample size in a series he got destroyed in in 2010 and because of a series everyone knows LeBron didn't play anywhere near his capabilities in. Strongdork ladies and gentlemen. Nothing but Skip Bayless ESPN tier analysis. Poor guy is going to sob uncontrollably if LeBron wins this year.

[StrongLurk]

LeBron also obliterated that same Hawks team Wade lost to and absolutely annihilated him in terms of stats but he's conveniently leaving that out in favor of a series Wade lost in 5 games the next year because he had better stats than LeBron did against the same team. Cherry picking and not the same standard held to either player, LeBron got shit for averaging like 39/8/8 on elite efficiency in the 2009 ECF, when has Wade EVER been held to that standard?

I said Lebron was better in the 2009 playoffs. That's pretty much the only playoffs he was better than a healthy Wade between 05-11.

[StrongLurk]

Wade was better because of a 5 game sample size in a series he got destroyed in in 2010 and because of a series everyone knows LeBron didn't play anywhere near his capabilities in. Strongdork ladies and gentlemen. Nothing but Skip Bayless ESPN tier analysis. Poor guy is going to sob uncontrollably if LeBron wins this year.

Weird, why didn't Lebron play near his "capabilities", but Wade did? Seems like you are just providing more evidence to support my position in this thread anf that Lebron had mental weakness lapses before 2012.

[RRR3]

I said Lebron was better in the 2009 playoffs. That's pretty much the only playoffs he was better than a healthy Wade between 05-11.
You also said Jokic was better than LeBron iirc, no one takes your opinions seriously on LeBron. I get it, you're enraged he's still great at age 40.

[RRR3]

weird, why didn't lebron play near his "capabilities", but wade did? Seems like you are just providing more evidence to support my position in this thread anf that lebron had mental weakness lapses before 2012.
da will to win. Hand down man down. Mama there goes that man. Clutch jean. Rrrrrrangz.

[RRR3]

Now that I think of it Stronglurk is the same idiot who thinks Durant is better than Curry :lol

[StrongLurk]

You also said Jokic was better than LeBron iirc, no one takes your opinions seriously on LeBron. I get it, you're enraged he's still great at age 40.

Lebron is literally my favorite player of all time :lol

I'm just not afraid to discuss Lebron's shortcomings. This thread isn't about tearing Lebron down, it's about shining a light on how truly great Wade was. He is very underrated among casual NBA fans under 30 years old and it's disappointing.

Also I never said Jokic was better than Lebron all-time. Jokic has definitely been the better player since 2021 though.

[StrongLurk]

Now that I think of it Stronglurk is the same idiot who thinks Durant is better than Curry :lol

I never said KD was better from an all-time ranking perspective. I said KD and Curry are on the exact same tier of player (so somewhere in the top 13-16 all time).

Curry gets overrated for sure these days. Lot of dumb fans claim he's top ten or even top 5 all time :lol

There is a BIG jump to go from top 15 to top 10, and another BIG jump to go from top 10 to top 5.

[RRR3]

Lebron is literally my favorite player of all time :lol

I'm just not afraid to discuss Lebron's shortcomings. This thread isn't about tearing Lebron down, it's about shining a light on how truly great Wade was. He is very underrated among casual NBA fans under 30 years old and it's disappointing.

Also I never said Jokic was better than Lebron all-time. Jokic has definitely been the better player since 2021 though.
Wade was great. But he wasn't peak LeBron great. I'd agree he was better than young pre-prime LeBron, but so were plenty of other people. You're also only focusing on offense, when LeBron was definitely the better defender from 09-11. Using 2011 as evidence as if they were under the same amount of pressure is silly. No player has ever dealt with that much worldwide hatred, and LeBron was being used suboptimally to boot, he was letting Wade run the offense a lot more than he should have been. You can argue Wade was as good or better at scoring, but certainly not running the offense.

[RRR3]

I never said KD was better from an all-time ranking perspective. I said KD and Curry are on the exact same tier of player (so somewhere in the top 13-16 all time).
That's a ridiculous comment though. Curry is very obviously better to anyone paying attention. Durant has absolutely never impacted a game like Curry. NEVER. The only player I've ever seen impact a game like Curry is LeBron. Curry is easily top 10, 13-16 is ridiculous.

[StrongLurk]

Wade was great. But he wasn't peak LeBron great. Using 2011 as evidence as if they were under the same amount of pressure is silly. No player has ever dealt with that much worldwide hatred, and LeBron was being used suboptimally to boot, he was letting Wade run the offense a lot more than he should have been. You can argue Wade was as good or better at scoring, but certainly not running the offense.

When was peak Lebron? I understand 09 Lebron was legitimately off the charts good that year, but we simply can't "know" for sure if Lebron would have kept being great if he made the 09 finals. But I DO know that every version of Lebron since 2012 would be great in the finals.

I simply can't say peak Lebron existed before 2012.

[RRR3]

When was peak Lebron? I understand 09 Lebron was legitimately off the charts good that year, but we simply can't "know" for sure if Lebron would have kept being great if he made the 09 finals. But I DO know that every version of Lebron since 2012 would be great in the finals.

I simply can't say peak Lebron existed before 2012.
Yes LeBron would have let Mo Williams run the offense if he made the finals :lol Only a player of Wade's caliber would have got enough respect from LeBron for him to take a backseat at all. We saw pre prime LeBron in the finals in 2007 and he was very aggressive. Sure he played like crap, but he was highly aggressive and not taking a backseat which is what you're insinuating he'd do in 2009. This was a version of LeBron that had trouble scoring efficiently in the playoffs though, by 09 he had fixed that.


Listen to yourself, man. MO WILLIAMS.

[StrongLurk]

That's a ridiculous comment though. Curry is very obviously better to anyone paying attention. Durant has absolutely never impacted a game like Curry. NEVER. The only player I've ever seen impact a game like Curry is LeBron. Curry is easily top 10, 13-16 is ridiculous.

Curry isn't "greater" than any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird. Hakeem is the "gate keeper" of the top ten all time in my opinion and the 11th best player ever. Curry has not done enough to for sure leapfrog Hakeem.

Hakeem/Curry both have 3 combined MVPs/FMVPs, but Hakeem has more 1st team all-nbas and FARRRRR more defensive impact than Curry. I get they are two players that are hard to directly compare, but based on resume/impact stats, Hakeem has a small edge on Curry.

[RRR3]

Curry isn't "greater" than any of these players.

MJ, Lebron, Kareem, Wilt, Bill Russell, Magic, Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, Bird. Hakeem is the "gate keeper" of the top ten all time in my opinion and the 11th best player ever. Curry has not done enough to for sure leapfrog Hakeem.

Hakeem/Curry both have 3 combined MVPs/FMVPs, but Hakeem has more 1st team all-nbas and FARRRRR more defensive impact than Curry. I get they are two players that are hard to directly compare, but based on resume/impact stats, Hakeem has a small edge on Curry.
Curry is far better than Kobe. Ridiculous ESPN driven narratives fooling you again.

[StrongLurk]

Yes LeBron would have let Mo Williams run the offense if he made the finals :lol Only a player of Wade's caliber would have got enough respect from LeBron for him to take a backseat at all. We saw pre prime LeBron in the finals in 2007 and he was very aggressive. Sure he played like crap, but he was highly aggressive and not taking a backseat which is what you're insinuating he'd do in 2009. This was a version of LeBron that had trouble scoring efficiently in the playoffs though, by 09 he had fixed that.


Listen to yourself, man. MO WILLIAMS.

So you are going with 2009 as Lebron's peak? I get the temptation, but damn there is so much else to choose from when looking at 2012-2018.

[RRR3]

So you are going with 2009 as Lebron's peak? I get the temptation, but damn there is so much else to choose from when looking at 2012-2018.
I'd say he was generally at a GOAT level from 2009-13 in the regular season and playoffs and 2014-18 in the playoffs (but not regular season as he began to take it easy to conserve energy). 2011 was a combination of insane pressure getting to him and him not developing his off ball game to the point he would later. Him winning in 2012 didn't really prove much to me, I knew he had it in him. It's not like he hasn't had bad playoff games or (relatively) down series since 2011 either. Sample size is important, as is context. I'll definitely agree Wade>LeBron from 05-07, 08 may also have been Wade if he had been healthy. But you forget no one besides huge LeBron stans thought LeBron was the best player from 05-08. It was generally considered Kobe, Duncan, KG or Wade ahead of him at various times. I'd say Shaq was considered better than LBJ as well in 05.

09 is when LeBron became the guy we all know him as.

[Phoenix]

"But Bron playing worse in these select occasions for me doesn't make him worse overall across 6 years when he was also better in other scenarios. I get your point, you place the higher value on the more reliable 'big game' performer. But we're talking specific moments vs across the spectrum of 6 years where you account for everything and not just curated moments."

So you are boiling down TWO FINALS SERIES as specific/curated "moments"? That's ridiculous. Small sample size or not, the finals are THE most prestigious games and clearly matter the most when looking at superstar 1st options. In my OP, I shared the whole 05-11 playoff numbers and the finals numbers, so I am not nitpicking.

Also, to be clear I am talking about playoffs, not regular season. You and a few other posters have mentioned Lebron's regular season performances, but those don't really matter for superstars like Lebron and Wade.

Lebron in the 2010 playoffs did nothing "historically" great. In fact, Wade played better in the 1st round against the Celtics than Lebron did in the second round vs the Celtics. So Wade could easily take 2010 as the better performer.

1. Wade was better in 05 playoff (Lebron didn't make it so hard to compare there).
2. Wade was better in 06 playoffs
3. Wade was injured in 07 playoffs, but I will give 07 to Lebron. Wade had two surguries on shoulder/knee right as the Heat were knocked out
4. Wade missed 08 playoffs due to injury, so again Lebron can get this by default but Lebron was AWFUL against the Celtics in 2008 semis
5. Lebron was better in 2009 playoffs
6. Wade/Lebron could be a tie for 2010 playoffs. Both players quickly lost to Celtics but Wade was much better than Lebron vs Celtics.
7. Wade was better in 2011 playoffs.

Basically Lebron was better than healthy Wade ONE TIME during 2005-2011, which was the 2009 playoffs. Wade was better every other time which is massive. Plus Wade was so much better than Lebron in the finals.

I said it early in the thread, but injuries totally derailed Wade for two years straight which allowed Lebron more spotlight in the East.

Would it make your night if I said Wade was better? Because maybe 3 posts ago I thought we had reached a somewhat happy medium. But this seems REALLY important to you. Which I suppose makes sense because its your thread and contention.

I think where my eyes pop out when you say that Wade/Lebron 2010 playoffs is a tie because they both lost to the Celtics. What I find interesting is nowhere in your consideration of who played better vs Boston is any credit to Lebron for getting his team further in the playoffs. But Wade played the Celtics in the first round, would be your reply. Yes, so why didn't Wade get his team to a higher seed to avoid the Celtics and get a favorable seeding? How much different were the casts for the Heat and Cavs where Wade is getting the 6th seed and Lebron the 1st that year? Same question applies to 2009...

Beyond that, saying Wade was better in 2005 playing next to 2nd in MVP Shaq whereas Lebron didn't make the playoffs on a shit Cavs team. Is that really a win for Wade?

Its more like....
2005 is null and void( see above)
2006 Wade was better ( and on a better team)
2007 Lebron was better( Wade injured)
2008 null and void( Wade injured)
2009 Lebron is better
2010 Lebron went further, he was better
2011 Wade slightly because of the finals with the caveat that Lebron carried the ECFs to get them there( but you ignore that)

Better in some ways and scenarios, worse in others. Wade being injured in 2007 and 2008 isn't Lebron's issue. Same tier.

[Phoenix]

I never said KD was better from an all-time ranking perspective. I said KD and Curry are on the exact same tier of player (so somewhere in the top 13-16 all time).

.

Tier of player individually and team impact-wise, or tier of legacy/rankings. And why?

[RRR3]

Would it make your night if I said Wade was better? Because maybe 3 posts ago I thought we had reached a somewhat happy medium. But this seems REALLY important to you. Which I suppose makes sense because its your thread and contention.

I think where my eyes pop out when you say that Wade/Lebron 2010 playoffs is a tie because they both lost to the Celtics. What I find interesting is nowhere in your consideration of who played better vs Boston is any credit to Lebron for getting his team further in the playoffs. But Wade played the Celtics in the first round, would be your reply. Yes, so why didn't Wade get his team to a higher seed to avoid the Celtics and get a favorable seeding? How much different were the casts for the Heat and Cavs where Wade is getting the 6th seed and Lebron the 1st that year? Same question applies to 2009...

Beyond that, saying Wade was better in 2005 playing next to 2nd in MVP Shaq whereas Lebron didn't make the playoffs on a shit Cavs team. Is that really a win for Wade?

Its more like....
2005 is null and void( see above)
2006 Wade was better ( and on a better team)
2007 Lebron was better( Wade injured)
2008 null and void( Wade injured)
2009 Lebron is better
2010 Lebron went further, he was better
2011 Wade slightly because of the finals with the caveat that Lebron carried the ECFs to get them there( but you ignore that)

Better in some ways and scenarios, worse in others. Wade being injured in 2007 and 2008 isn't Lebron's issue. Same tier.
LeBron was still the best in 2011 generally speaking. That's why he got so much shit because we all knew it was ridiculous for the best player in the league to play like that. It would be like if Jokic had a terrible finals this year. I don't know why a choke necessarily makes a player ranked beyond guys they're better than the rest of the year. Is Tatum worse than Jaylen Brown?

[StrongLurk]

I'd say he was generally at a GOAT level from 2009-13 in the regular season and playoffs and 2014-18 in the playoffs (but not regular season as he began to take it easy to conserve energy). 2011 was a combination of insane pressure getting to him and him not developing his off ball game to the point he would later. Him winning in 2012 didn't really prove much to me, I knew he had it in him. It's not like he hasn't had bad playoff games or (relatively) down series since 2011 either. Sample size is important, as is context. I'll definitely agree Wade>LeBron from 05-07, 08 may also have been Wade if he had been healthy. 09 is when LeBron became the guy we all know him as though.

Wade in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 26.9 PER, 58.8 TS%, .219 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Lebron in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 25.3 PER, 57.9 TS%, .213 WS/48, 8.6 BPM

Wade has Lebron beat again.

:confusedshrug::confusedshrug::confusedshrug::conf usedshrug::confusedshrug::

[RRR3]

Wade in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 26.9 PER, 58.8 TS%, .219 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Lebron in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 25.3 PER, 57.9 TS%, .213 WS/48, 8.6 BPM

Wade has Lebron beat again.

:confusedshrug::confusedshrug::confusedshrug::conf usedshrug::confusedshrug::
And yet you say Kobe>Curry despite Curry obliterating him in all of those stats. Be consistent.

And Phoenix already told you why 2010 is silly to give to Wade. You're basically hanging your hat on 6 games in which LeBron played like Evan Turner.

[StrongLurk]

Would it make your night if I said Wade was better? Because maybe 3 posts ago I thought we had reached a somewhat happy medium. But this seems REALLY important to you. Which I suppose makes sense because its your thread and contention.

I think where my eyes pop out when you say that Wade/Lebron 2010 playoffs is a tie because they both lost to the Celtics. What I find interesting is nowhere in your consideration of who played better vs Boston is any credit to Lebron for getting his team further in the playoffs. But Wade played the Celtics in the first round, would be your reply. Yes, so why didn't Wade get his team to a higher seed to avoid the Celtics and get a favorable seeding? How much different were the casts for the Heat and Cavs where Wade is getting the 6th seed and Lebron the 1st that year? Same question applies to 2009...

Beyond that, saying Wade was better in 2005 playing next to 2nd in MVP Shaq whereas Lebron didn't make the playoffs on a shit Cavs team. Is that really a win for Wade?

Its more like....
2005 is null and void( see above)
2006 Wade was better ( and on a better team)
2007 Lebron was better( Wade injured)
2008 null and void( Wade injured)
2009 Lebron is better
2010 Lebron went further, he was better
2011 Wade slightly because of the finals with the caveat that Lebron carried the ECFs to get them there( but you ignore that)

Better in some ways and scenarios, worse in others. Wade being injured in 2007 and 2008 isn't Lebron's issue. Same tier.

Wade played much better against the 2010 Celtics. Lebron played much worse and only one round later. How is that a win for Lebron? We can go with a tie there I guess, but then Wade easily has the 2011 playoff run. Wade for sure has 2006 and 2011. Lebron has 2009. Wade/Lebron can be a tie for 2010. A HEALTHY Wade is a better playoff performer. Oh by the way let's look at 2010/2011 totals below.

Wade in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 26 games, 26.9 PER, 58.8 TS%, .219 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Lebron in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 32 games, 25.3 PER, 57.9 TS%, .213 WS/48, 8.6 BPM

Wade has Lebron beat again.

[RRR3]

Stephen Curry in the playoffs from 15-23 (keep in mind his stats were deflated because he deferred to KD more than he should have too): 23.5 PER, 61.1 TS%, .196 WS/48, 7.4 BPM

Kobe from 01-11 in the playoffs: 23.3 PER, 54.8 TS%, .174 WS/48, 6.0 BPM

Let's see some consitency Stronglurk :no:

[Phoenix]

LeBron was still the best in 2011 generally speaking. That's why he got so much shit because we all knew it was ridiculous for the best player in the league to play like that. It would be like if Jokic had a terrible finals this year. I don't know why a choke necessarily makes a player ranked beyond guys they're better than the rest of the year. Is Tatum worse than Jaylen Brown?

Yeah, I was playing the 'better playoffs' thing Stronglurk was talking about above. They were pretty much par in 2011 for the season, really Bron was fitting into the Heat that year. The finals thing is obviously bad, but they don't make the finals unless Lebron carries Wade in the ECFs. Wade being 19/6/2 on 41% gets lost in the hoopla of the finals under-performance by Lebron( 18/7/7 on 48%). It says the Heat could better withstand Wade playing bad if Lebron picked up the pieces, less so vice versa.

[StrongLurk]

And yet you say Kobe>Curry despite Curry obliterating him in all of those stats. Be consistent.

And Phoenix already told you why 2010 is silly to give to Wade. You're basically hanging your hat on 6 games in which LeBron played like Evan Turner.

We'd have to start another thread here. I do think Kobe vs Curry is a great debate. Kobe is actually hard for me to rank, but I do have him in the lower tier in the top 10, maybe the 9th spot.

Curry is a great player but I just think he's gotten so damn lucky in his career. He early injuries in his career kept him on a cheap contract and a bad record got good draft picks (Klay/Dray). Iggy literally joins the Warriors right after he lost to them in the playoffs. Curry then gets EXTREMELY lucky to face Lebron without Love/Kyrie in the 2015 finals. Then Curry gets lucky with a historic rise in team salary caps right after 2016 finals which allows the Warriors to easily snag Durant.

Just a wild string of fluke events. I give Curry major credit for his 2022 ring no doubt.

[RRR3]

Yeah, I was playing the 'better playoffs' thing Stronglurk was talking about above. They were pretty much par in 2011 for the season, really Bron was fitting into the Heat that year. The finals thing is obviously bad, but they don't make the finals unless Lebron carries Wade in the ECFs. Wade being 19/6/2 on 41% gets lost in the hoopla of the finals under-performance by Lebron( 18/7/7 on 48%). It says the Heat could better withstand Wade playing bad if Lebron picked up the pieces, less so vice versa.
Yeah, LeBron wasn't any worse in 2011 than he was any other year from 09-13, he was just playing a different suboptimal (3ball voice) role and under never seen before or since pressure. People legit think players become worse if their stats go down when they play with other stars, it's maddening :lol

Not to excuse him choking, it's a legitimate point in MJ's favor during GOAT debates. But LBJ had entered his GOAT stretch by that time, this isn't pre prime LeBron we're talking about like 05-08.

[RRR3]

We'd have to start another thread here. I do think Kobe vs Curry is a great debate. Kobe is actually hard for me to rank, but I do have him in the lower tier in the top 10, maybe the 9th spot.

Curry is a great player but I just think he's gotten so damn lucky in his career. He early injuries in his career kept him on a cheap contract and a bad record got good draft picks (Klay/Dray). Iggy literally joins the Warriors right after he lost to them in the playoffs. Curry then gets EXTREMELY lucky to face Lebron without Love/Kyrie in the 2015 finals. Then Curry gets lucky with a historic rise in team salary caps right after 2016 finals which allows the Warriors to easily snag Durant.

Just a wild string of fluke events. I give Curry major credit for his 2022 ring no doubt.
Kobe won a finals averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%, when has Curry ever been THAT lucky? :lol There isn't a single finals Curry wins playing like that.

[StrongLurk]

Kobe won a finals averaging 15.6 PPG on 41.1 TS%, when has Curry ever been THAT lucky? :lol There isn't a single finals Curry wins playing like that.

:lol

Of course that is a great point, but Kobe also has two undeniable 1st option alpha rings in 09/10. Curry just has the one...

Even taking out 2000, Kobe has 4 rings, 2 as clear cut best player. Curry's 2015 ring is very weak in my opinion because Lebron with a healthy team is WHOOPING his ass in 2015. The 2015 Warriors were easily the weakest version of the 15-19 Warriors.

[RRR3]

:lol

Of course that is a great point, but Kobe also has two undeniable 1st option alpha rings in 09/10. Curry just has the one...
2010 has to be one of the all time worst performances by a FMVP, so weird to use that for Kobe. Say what you want about Curry, but he's a better finals performer than Kobe. Just not as lucky.

[Phoenix]

Wade played much better against the 2010 Celtics. Lebron played much worse and only one round later. How is that a win for Lebron? We can go with a tie there I guess, but then Wade easily has the 2011 playoff run. Wade for sure has 2006 and 2011. Lebron has 2009. Wade/Lebron can be a tie for 2010. A HEALTHY Wade is a better playoff performer. Oh by the way let's look at 2010/2011 totals below.

Wade in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 26 games, 26.9 PER, 58.8 TS%, .219 WS/48, 9.4 BPM

Lebron in the 2010 and 2011 playoffs combined: 32 games, 25.3 PER, 57.9 TS%, .213 WS/48, 8.6 BPM

Wade has Lebron beat again.

How is it not a win for a guy taking a team further? If you're crediting Wade for winning a title in 2006, a team result, why wouldn't Lebron get credit for taking his team further in 2010? Or positioning them better throughout the year? The Cavs and Heat rosters aren't 18 wins apart in talent. Wade playing better against Boston and losing in an earlier round isn't better than positioning your team with a higher seed and at least getting out of the first round. Come on dude, that shouldn't need to be explained in that much detail.

[StrongLurk]

Man this thread is nostalgic of ISH's peak years way back in the day :cry:

ISH has been total trash for a while now.

[RRR3]

How is it not a win for a guy taking a team further? If you're crediting Wade for winning a title in 2006, a team result, why wouldn't Lebron get credit for taking his team further in 2010? Or positioning them better throughout the year better? The Cavs and Heat rosters are 18 wins apart in talent. Wade playing better against Boston and losing in an earlier round isn't better than positioning your team with a higher seed and at least getting out of the first round. Come on dude, that shouldn't need to be explained in that much detail.
Paul Pierce outplayed LeBron in the 2008 ECF, he was better :lol Bro is allergic to context.

[StrongLurk]

It's team result AND performance. Wade was fantastic and won. When was Lebron fantastic AND won. Should've been 2011, but...

It's just not very meaningful to look at the 2010 playoffs. Wade lost in round 1, Lebron in round 2 to the SAME team. Neither of them won a ring or got far at all, so we can just look at their individual performances that year.

[RRR3]

It's team result AND performance. Wade was fantastic and won. When was Lebron fantastic AND won. Should've been 2011, but...

It's just not very meaningful to look at the 2010 playoffs. Wade lost in round 1, Lebron in round 2 to the SAME team. Neither of them won a ring or got far at all, so we can just look at their individual performances that year.
Luka beat the same team your hero Jokic lost to last year. Luka>Jokic. Higher game score too so he was outproducing Jokic as well. Damn guess Luka was the best player last year.

[StrongLurk]

Paul Pierce outplayed LeBron in the 2008 ECF, he was better :lol Bro is allergic to context.

Well actually Lebron slightly outplayed Pierce in my opinion, so your post doesnt mean anything. Also Pierce isn't close to Lebron's level during that time. OTOH, Wade WAS on Lebron's level, so it's worth dissecting the details between Lebron and Wade.

[RRR3]

Well actually Lebron slightly outplayed Pierce in my opinion, so your post doesnt mean anything. Also Pierce isn't close to Lebron's level during that time. OTOH, Wade WAS on Lebron's level, so it's worth dissecting the details between Lebron and Wade.
Luka>Jokic last year right? Be consistent.

[StrongLurk]

Luka beat the same team your hero Jokic lost to last year. Luka>Jokic. Higher game score too so he was outproducing Jokic as well. Damn guess Luka was the best player last year.

Yeah but Joker has much better stats across a longer time frame AND he has won before. It's a different comparison than Wade/Lebron. Wade actually had playoff runs with BETTER impact stats AND winning/performances in the finals than Lebron. Luka hasn't done that compared to Jokic.

[RRR3]

Yeah but Joker has much better stats across a longer time frame AND he has won before. It's a different comparison than Wade/Lebron. Wade actually had playoff runs with BETTER impact stats AND winning/performances in the finals than Lebron. Luka hasn't done that compared to Jokic.
https://www.enworld.org/media/moving-goalpost-gif.135798/full


Do you seriously not think LeBron would have won in 2009 or 2010 if he got to face nothing but 45 win teams like Jokic did in 2023? :lol

[StrongLurk]

https://www.enworld.org/media/moving-goalpost-gif.135798/full


Do you seriously not think LeBron would have won in 2009 or 2010 if he got to face nothing but 45 win teams like Jokic did in 2023? :lol

Bro Jokic's 2023 run is one of the best of all time. Absurd impact stats AND winning. It's not Jokic's fault that those 45 win teams BEAT the higher seed teams.

Again we cant trust 09 and 10 Lebron for sure because the 2011 finals meltdown exists.

Im not moving any goals posts here. Lebron's 2011 meltdown is straight up damning his other previous bad performances (07 finals, 08/10 Celtics series).

It went from Lebron doesn't have enough supporting talent to...wait a minute...Lebron's mental inconsistency is a major factor too. Trust me main, I still remember watching the 2011 finals and watching it all play out was shocking. It's not a coincidence that once Lebron got over the hump in 2012, he NEVER performed poorly in the playoffs again when healthy.

[Phoenix]

It's team result AND performance. Wade was fantastic and won. When was Lebron fantastic AND won. Should've been 2011, but...

It's just not very meaningful to look at the 2010 playoffs. Wade lost in round 1, Lebron in round 2 to the SAME team. Neither of them won a ring or got far at all, so we can just look at their individual performances that year.

So to my earlier point, Lebron's performance being on par was more critical to the Heat winning based on the ECFs and finals. What do you think happens if Lebron plays like shit against Chicago? Probably the same thing that happens in the finals, they lose. So the Heat could better withstand a subpar Wade than a subpar Lebron. Bear in mind that the Bulls were the top ranked defense that year.

I would argue any year that you give a player a win because the other player was injured isn't all that meaningful either. It's certainly not a 'win'. In 2010, both were healthy for the playoffs. One made it further. Under normal circumstances one would say the person who went further should get the nod, unless you want to boil it down to a zero sum, in which case every year but 2006 is meaningless since they both 'failed', whatever the context.

[Phoenix]

Well actually Lebron slightly outplayed Pierce in my opinion, so your post doesnt mean anything. Also Pierce isn't close to Lebron's level during that time. OTOH, Wade WAS on Lebron's level, so it's worth dissecting the details between Lebron and Wade.

Sooo....they were on the same tier?

[RRR3]

So to my earlier point, Lebron's performance being on par was more critical to the Heat winning based on the ECFs and finals. What do you think happens if Lebron plays like shit against Chicago? Probably the same thing that happens in the finals, they lose. So the Heat could better withstand a subpar Wade than a subpar Lebron. Bear in mind that the Bulls were the top ranked defense that year.

I would argue any year that you give a player a win because the other player was injured isn't all that meaningful either. It's certainly not a 'win'. In 2010, both were healthy for the playoffs. One made it further. Under normal circumstances one would say the person who went further should get the nod, unless you want to boil it down to a zero sum, in which case every year but 2006 is meaningless since they both 'failed', whatever the context.
LeBron didn't even need to play like shit for them to win that Chicago series, he just needed to not dominate the fourth quarters like he did on both ends. No use arguing with this guy, he's 3ball like in being unable to process new information.

[StrongLurk]

Sooo....they were on the same tier?

Superstar tier, Paul Pierce was never like that so why compare?

Wade and Lebron were legit superstar top 5 players in the league so this is why it's worth comparing the details. The details, in my opinion, show Wade as the better player performer. Obviously it's still close, but the narratives that exist today is that Lebron was ALWAYS better than Wade. That's why these discussions are important.

Narratives are not reality. Wade was absolutely competing with Kobe/Lebron for best guard/wing player in the league.

[StrongLurk]

So to my earlier point, Lebron's performance being on par was more critical to the Heat winning based on the ECFs and finals. What do you think happens if Lebron plays like shit against Chicago? Probably the same thing that happens in the finals, they lose. So the Heat could better withstand a subpar Wade than a subpar Lebron. Bear in mind that the Bulls were the top ranked defense that year.

I would argue any year that you give a player a win because the other player was injured isn't all that meaningful either. It's certainly not a 'win'. In 2010, both were healthy for the playoffs. One made it further. Under normal circumstances one would say the person who went further should get the nod, unless you want to boil it down to a zero sum, in which case every year but 2006 is meaningless since they both 'failed', whatever the context.

I meant to address Wade's awful series vs the Bulls earlier. I used to make the same argument all the time when defending Lebron's 2011 performance. Yeah Lebron sucked in the finals, but Wade sucked one series earlier.

This is true and a good counterpoint to my opinion on the 2011 playoffs. With that being said, Wade was still the better overall performer for the whole playoff run. Also I think there is some nuance between Wade ECF and Lebron Finals.

To me, Wade just sucked in the ECF, but he was still aggressive. Lebron the finals didn't just suck, he actively became passive and took way less shots and free throws than usual. Wade shot 7 free throws per game in the ECF, Lebron shot 3.3 free throws per game in the finals.

[Phoenix]

Superstar tier, Paul Pierce was never like that so why compare?

Wade and Lebron were legit superstar top 5 players in the league so this is why it's worth comparing the details. The details, in my opinion, show Wade as the better player performer. Obviously it's still close, but the narratives that exist today is that Lebron was ALWAYS better than Wade. That's why these discussions are important.

Narratives are not reality. Wade was absolutely competing with Kobe/Lebron for best guard/wing player in the league.

I'm just using your own words as you present them. 'Wade is on Lebron's level'.....'Wade and Lebron are on the same tier.' Where are you getting tripped up on your words being what I've been saying all this time?

Lebron, Kobe and Wade were the top 3 players in 2009 and 2010. Same tier, you can nitpick the minutia until the morning.

[StrongLurk]

I'm just using your own words as you present them. 'Wade is on Lebron's level'.....'Wade and Lebron are on the same tier.' Where are you getting tripped up on your words being what I've been saying all this time?

Lebron, Kobe and Wade were the top 3 players in 2009 and 2010. Same tier, you can nitpick the minutia until the morning.

Yeah, my main point is to highlight Wade's underrated performances.

Second point is that I would actually choose Wade over Lebron 05-11. It's obviously close, but the narratives that exist make it seem like Lebron was clear number 1 and Wade was generically "top 5". But in reality I actually think Wade's playoff performances were more impressive.

Honestly 2005-2011 was SUCH a fascinating time with Lebron, Wade and Kobe.

[RRR3]

Who tf thought LeBron was number 1 from 05-08? OP is arguing with ghosts.

[Phoenix]

I meant to address Wade's awful series vs the Bulls earlier. I used to make the same argument all the time when defending Lebron's 2011 performance. Yeah Lebron sucked in the finals, but Wade sucked one series earlier.

This is true and a good counterpoint to my opinion on the 2011 playoffs. With that being said, Wade was still the better overall performer for the whole playoff run. Also I think there is some nuance between Wade ECF and Lebron Finals.

To me, Wade just sucked in the ECF, but he was still aggressive. Lebron the finals didn't just suck, he actively became passive and took way less shots and free throws than usual. Wade shot 7 free throws per game in the ECF, Lebron shot 3.3 free throws per game in the finals.

That says to me that Wade tried and just flat-out played bad, while there were things going on with Lebron that weren't merely 'playing bad'. The mental lapses. In the grand scheme, I'm not sure which is worse because they're varying degrees of chocking. I mean, if Lebron played balls to the walls in the finals and just sucked, is that any better for him? If anything I'm inclined to think it would be viewed worse, because that would really be a case where he was perceived as not good enough for the moment, versus mindfukking himself out of the series.

[dankok8]

Wade generally performed better in the playoffs than Lebron from 2006-2011 with 2009 being the notable exception when Lebron went supersaiyan. StrongLurk's argument here that Wade is better because he performed better in the playoffs is not really outlandish at all. I don't really agree with it overall because I do value the regular season as well and Lebron there has a huge advantage not just in impact but simply because of superior durability. Wade will never lead average rosters to 60 wins because he will miss a bunch of games.

Another thing that I think is worth clarifying is that the title of best in the world in 2009 and 2010 was far from unanimous. You had a big bunch of people backing Lebron (including me), a big bunch backing Kobe and then a smaller bunch backing Wade. I was already an adult frequenting these forums so I can attest to that. Or y'all can dig up some old threads and browse the takes if y'all don't believe me.

[ArbitraryWater]

LeBron didn't even need to play like shit for them to win that Chicago series, he just needed to not dominate the fourth quarters like he did on both ends. No use arguing with this guy, he's 3ball like in being unable to process new information.


I like Stronglurk but he never takes in any new information lol. Guy sticks to any point regardless of how many times an improvement has been pointed out.

[ArbitraryWater]

Wade generally performed better in the playoffs than Lebron from 2006-2011 with 2009 being the notable exception when Lebron went supersaiyan. StrongLurk's argument here that Wade is better because he performed better in the playoffs is not really outlandish at all. I don't really agree with it overall because I do value the regular season as well and Lebron there has a huge advantage not just in impact but simply because of superior durability. Wade will never lead average rosters to 60 wins because he will miss a bunch of games.

Another thing that I think is worth clarifying is that the title of best in the world in 2009 and 2010 was far from unanimous. You had a big bunch of people backing Lebron (including me), a big bunch backing Kobe and then a smaller bunch backing Wade. I was already an adult frequenting these forums so I can attest to that. Or y'all can dig up some old threads and browse the takes if y'all don't believe me.


Except, he didnt generally perform better in 2005, as Bron didnt make the playoffs, or in 2008, as Wade didnt make the playoffs, or in 2007, when Bron was better. Or 2009, when Bron was better.

So what the **** are you left with? :lol

Wade didnt "generally perform better in the playoffs from 2005-2011". You just subconsciously have different standards for them.

[dankok8]

Except, he didnt generally perform better in 2005, as Bron didnt make the playoffs, or in 2008, as Wade didnt make the playoffs, or in 2007, when Bron was better. Or 2009, when Bron was better.

So what the **** are you left with? :lol

Wade didnt "generally perform better in the playoffs from 2005-2011". You just subconsciously have different standards for them.

I'm not going to compare in 2005, 2007 and 2008 when one of them was clearly injured or didn't make the playoffs. Both guys healthy and making the playoffs, Wade was generally better. And him being way better in the Finals does factor a bit into that assessment. It's hard to overlook that Lebron had not one but two horrific performances.

[StrongLurk]

I like Stronglurk but he never takes in any new information lol. Guy sticks to any point regardless of how many times an improvement has been pointed out.

:lol

[Phoenix]

I'm not going to compare in 2005, 2007 and 2008 when one of them was clearly injured or didn't make the playoffs. Both guys healthy and making the playoffs, Wade was generally better. And him being way better in the Finals does factor a bit into that assessment. It's hard to overlook that Lebron had not one but two horrific performances.

You realize that Wade in the 2011 ECFs was 19/6/2 on 41%? And as said before, he actually was 'trying' to play and was just flat-out bad. If Lebron didn't play well enough in that series to counter that, they don't even make the finals. Funny enough, 'legacy-wise' it was probably better for him to play well in the ECFs and lose because Wade was bad, then to make the finals and have his under-performance haunt his career. That's how weird these conversations are.

If we remove 2005, 2007 and 2008 as years that shouldn't really count because one was not playing in the playoffs or injured, you're pretty much left with 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011. And even for 2006 with the trump card of Wade winning a title, it should be noted that Lebron was 35/7/6 60% TS against the Wizards in the first round, and 27/9/6 52% against the Pistons in a losing effort. Wade against the same Pistons team in the ECFs 27/5/6 68%. Obviously Wade's efficiency was off the charts here, but there has to be some account for Shaq's 22/11 62% TS vs....... Big Z's 11/6 51% TS in terms of having someone who can draw some defensive attention away vs the other guy that you can basically load up on. I don't see much reference to the quality of their teammates in terms of who was doing what in 2006. I mean, I almost feel like there's an undercurrent here that Wade with Lebron's 2006 Cavs is doing more than Lebron managed. If Lebron even in still relatively raw form was able to take the Pistons to 7 with that Cavs squad, is it a stretch to think he didn't have a shot to win on the Heat with Shaq? It's not that big a leap, is it?

[ArbitraryWater]

I'm not going to compare in 2005, 2007 and 2008 when one of them was clearly injured or didn't make the playoffs. Both guys healthy and making the playoffs, Wade was generally better. And him being way better in the Finals does factor a bit into that assessment. It's hard to overlook that Lebron had not one but two horrific performances.


Every single time anything is close with LeBron, amd you can go one way or another, you go the opposite way. Not even 50/50, but if you see a smidgen of an argument the other way, you take it. lol.

[dankok8]

You realize that Wade in the 2011 ECFs was 19/6/2 on 41%? And as said before, he actually was 'trying' to play and was just flat-out bad. If Lebron didn't play well enough in that series to counter that, they don't even make the finals. Funny enough, 'legacy-wise' it was probably better for him to play well in the ECFs and lose because Wade was bad, then to make the finals and have his under-performance haunt his career. That's how weird these conversations are.

If we remove 2005, 2007 and 2008 as years that shouldn't really count because one was not playing in the playoffs or injured, you're pretty much left with 2006, 2009, 2010 and 2011. And even for 2006 with the trump card of Wade winning a title, it should be noted that Lebron was 35/7/6 60% TS against the Wizards in the first round, and 27/9/6 52% against the Pistons in a losing effort. Wade against the same Pistons team in the ECFs 27/5/6 68%. Obviously Wade's efficiency was off the charts here, but there has to be some account for Shaq's 22/11 62% TS vs....... Big Z's 11/6 51% TS in terms of having someone who can draw some defensive attention away vs the other guy that you can basically load up on. I don't see much reference to the quality of their teammates in terms of who was doing what in 2006. I mean, I almost feel like there's an undercurrent here that Wade with Lebron's 2006 Cavs is doing more than Lebron managed. If Lebron even in still relatively raw form was able to take the Pistons to 7 with that Cavs squad, is it a stretch to think he didn't have a shot to win on the Heat with Shaq? It's not that big a leap, is it?

Good post. For sure. I'm not pretending Wade was way better or something but he was a bit better playoff performer for their careers until 2011. Wade also had his down performances like the 2011 ECF but generally he came through in tough series more than Lebron did.

By the way does that mean I would take Wade > Lebron overall for that stretch. No... He's less durable and Lebron is the much better regular season player from 2009 onwards. And while I do emphasize playoffs, I still value the regular season. So overall for that entire stretch, it can go either way. Same tier as some of y'all said earlier in the thread.

[Phoenix]

Good post. For sure. I'm not pretending Wade was way better or something but he was a bit better playoff performer for their careers until 2011. Wade also had his down performances like the 2011 ECF but generally he came through in tough series more than Lebron did.

By the way does that mean I would take Wade > Lebron overall for that stretch. No... He's less durable and Lebron is the much better regular season player from 2009 onwards. And while I do emphasize playoffs, I still value the regular season. So overall for that entire stretch, it can go either way. Same tier as some of y'all said earlier in the thread.

I just had a quick look at the Heat 2006 playoffs. Everyone( rightly) remembers Wade playing out of his mind in the finals. But when I look at his first 3 rounds:

vs Heat 25/5/7 54%TS
vs Nets 28/6/7 60% TS
vs Pistons 27/5/6 68% TS

I suppose the argument in Wade's favor here would be that 2006 was his third playoffs vs being Lebron's first, so there's an experience factor here and Wade was mature beyond his years even as a rookie. But Lebron played well overall this year in the playoffs, at least well enough for me to theorize that he and Shaq could get to the finals and it's anyone's guess what happens then. Lebron was always a better passer than Wade, so he may not go off for 35 a game but maybe Shaq is more involved in the offense against Dallas and the net result ends up the same. All hypothetical, of course...

[dankok8]

I just had a quick look at the Heat 2006 playoffs. Everyone( rightly) remembers Wade playing out of his mind in the finals. But when I look at his first 3 rounds:

vs Heat 25/5/7 54%TS
vs Nets 28/6/7 60% TS
vs Pistons 27/5/6 68% TS

I suppose the argument in Wade's favor here would be that 2006 was his third playoffs vs being Lebron's first, so there's an experience factor here and Wade was mature beyond his years even as a rookie. But Lebron played well overall this year in the playoffs, at least well enough for me to theorize that he and Shaq could get to the finals and it's anyone's guess what happens then. Lebron was always a better passer than Wade, so he may not go off for 35 a game but maybe Shaq is more involved in the offense against Dallas and the net result ends up the same. All hypothetical, of course...

As is evident from your post, Wade stepped up his game in later rounds. He was a monster against Detroit in particular.

[StrongLurk]

As is evident from your post, Wade stepped up his game in later rounds. He was a monster against Detroit in particular.

The BEN WALLACE Pistons, which is important to note. The Pistons were still good in 2007, but not the same as their 04-06 versions.

[Axe]

Just need to ask yourself. What version of 2005-2011 Lebron is leading the 2006 Heat team to a finals WIN? 2009 and 2010 Lebron is clearly talented enough, but then we simply can't count on Lebron being "Lebron" when the finals come which is a massive Achilles heel. Meanwhile, we KNOW any version of 05-2011 Wade would be a monster in the finals.

If we have three players all very similar impact abilities 05-11 (Kobe, Wade, Bron), but one of them blows in the finals, then how can we choose that person as the best player? I'd like to THINK the 2009 and 2010 versions of Lebron would be a beast if he was able to get to the finals (especially 09 Bron), but we simply can't assume that considering his 07 and 11 finals...
Wade was great but he didn't play as much as lebron during his first three years in the league. And he became worse before mid 2010s because he's prone to injuries. He could have fared better tho than what he was if he did well in shooting three-pointers.

Btw, the raging homosexual below you is a narcissistic retard who can't stop bleeding at all. He shows this in otc threads by whining over posters he gets butthurt the most and will continue to do so until he finally burns in hell. (https://i.ibb.co/SxWM8PC/IMG-20230805-073843.jpg)

[Full Court]

Wade was great but he didn't play as much as lebron during his first three years in the league. And he became worse before mid 2010s because he's prone to injuries. He could have fared better tho than what he was if he did well in shooting three-pointers.

Btw, the raging homosexual below you is a narcissistic retard who can't stop bleeding at all. He shows this in otc threads by whining over posters he gets butthurt the most and will continue to do so until he finally burns in hell. (https://i.ibb.co/SxWM8PC/IMG-20230805-073843.jpg)

^The stinky idiot just can't stop having sniveling bitch fits. :roll:

No wonder he was voted biggest loser on ISH. :confusedshrug:

[Axe]

Attention. (https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg)

[kawhileonard2]

Wade was better. Won a title for a franchise that never won.

[Full Court]

Attention. (https://i.ibb.co/gDsySW3/IMG-20230603-203842.jpg)

Stink Weasel was voted dumbest poster in ISH history AND the biggest loser on ISH.


:roll:

Stinky, dumb, and autistic.

[Axe]

Wade was better. Won a title for a franchise that never won. (https://i.ibb.co/SxWM8PC/IMG-20230805-073843.jpg)
But the cavs haven't won anything until 2016, jordansbulls.