#1 Offenses in the League Since 1955

[dankok8]

This list contains the #1 offense (by rORtg) of every season since the shot clock so 1955.

Year - Team (rORtg) -- Best Offensive Player/Key Supporting Players

1955 -- Boston Celtics (+3.2) -- Bob Cousy
1956 -- Philadelphia Warriors (+4.3) -- Paul Arizin
1957 -- Philadelphia Warriors (+3.5) -- Paul Arizin
1958 -- New York Knicks (+2.9) -- Richie Guerin
1959 -- St. Louis Hawks (+3.1) -- Bob Pettit
1960 -- St. Louis Hawks (+2.9) -- Bob Pettit
1961 -- Cincinnati Royals (+3.5) -- Oscar Robertson
1962 -- Cincinnati Royals (+4.7) -- Oscar Robertson
1963 -- Cincinnati Royals (+3.5) -- Oscar Robertson
1964 -- Cincinnati Royals (+4.3) -- Oscar Robertson
1965 -- Cincinnati Royals (+4.4) -- Oscar Robertson
1966 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+3.4) -- Jerry West
1967 -- Philadelphia 76ers (+5.4) -- Wilt Chamberlain
1968 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+4.9) -- Jerry West
1969 -- Cincinnati Royals (+4.7) -- Oscar Robertson
1970 -- Atlanta Hawks (+3.3) -- Lou Hudson
1971 -- Milwaukee Bucks (+6.7) -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Oscar Robertson
1972 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+5.2) -- Jerry West
1973 -- Kansas City Kings (+2.9) -- Tiny Archibald
1974 -- Milwaukee Bucks (+3.5) -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
1975 -- Golden State Warriors (+2.7) -- Rick Barry
1976 -- Houston Rockets (+2.8) -- Calvin Murphy/Rudy Tomjanovich
1977 -- Houston Rockets (+5.0) -- Calvin Murphy/Rudy Tomjanovich/Moses Malone
1978 -- Philadelphia 76ers (+4.1) -- Julius Erving
1979 -- Houston Rockets (+4.9) -- Moses Malone
1980 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+4.2) -- Kareem Abdul-Jabbar/Magic Johnson
1981 -- Denver Nuggets (+3.9) -- Alex English/David Thompson
1982 -- Denver Nuggets (+7.4) -- Alex English
1983 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+5.8) -- Magic Johnson
1984 -- Detroit Pistons (+3.9) -- Isiah Thomas
1985 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+6.2) -- Magic Johnson
1986 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+6.1) -- Magic Johnson
1987 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+7.3) -- Magic Johnson
1988 -- Boston Celtics (+7.3) -- Larry Bird
1989 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+6.0) -- Magic Johnson
1990 -- Los Angeles Lakers (+5.9) -- Magic Johnson
1991 -- Chicago Bulls (+6.7) -- Michael Jordan
1992 -- Chicago Bulls (+7.3) -- Michael Jordan
1993 -- Phoenix Suns (+5.3) -- Charles Barkley
1994 -- Phoenix Suns (+5.4) -- Charles Barkley
1995 -- Orlando Magic (+6.9) -- Shaquille O'Neal
1996 -- Chicago Bulls (+7.5) -- Michael Jordan
1997 -- Chicago Bulls (+7.7) -- Michael Jordan
1998 -- Utah Jazz (+7.6) -- Karl Malone
1999 -- Indiana Pacers (+6.5) -- Reggie Miller
2000 -- Indiana Pacers (+4.4) -- Reggie Miller
2001 -- Milwaukee Bucks (+5.8) -- Ray Allen
2002 -- Dallas Mavericks (+7.7) -- Dirk Nowitzki/Steve Nash
2003 -- Dallas Mavericks (+7.1) -- Dirk Nowitzki/Steve Nash
2004 -- Dallas Mavericks (+9.2) -- Dirk Nowitzki/Steve Nash
2005 -- Phoenix Suns (+8.4) -- Steve Nash
2006 -- Dallas Mavericks (+5.6) -- Dirk Nowitzki
2007 -- Phoenix Suns (+7.5) -- Steve Nash
2008 -- Utah Jazz (+6.3) -- Deron Williams
2009 -- Portland Trail Blazers (+5.6) -- Brandon Roy
2010 -- Phoenix Suns (+7.7) -- Steve Nash
2011 -- Denver Nuggets (+5.1) -- Carmelo Anthony
2012 -- San Antonio Spurs (+6.3) -- Tim Duncan/Tony Parker
2013 -- Oklahoma City Thunder (+6.6) -- Kevin Durant/Russell Westbrook
2014 -- Los Angeles Clippers (+5.4) -- Chris Paul
2015 -- Los Angeles Clippers (+6.8) -- Chris Paul
2016 -- Golden State Warriors (+8.1) -- Stephen Curry
2017 -- Golden State Warriors (+6.8) -- Stephen Curry/Kevin Durant
2018 -- Houston Rockets (+6.1) -- James Harden
2019 -- Golden State Warriors (+5.5) -- Stephen Curry/Kevin Durant
2020 -- Dallas Mavericks (+6.1) -- Luka Doncic
2021 -- Brooklyn Nets (+5.9) -- Kevin Durant/James Harden
2022 -- Utah Jazz (+4.7) -- Donovan Mitchell
2023 -- Sacramento Kings (+4.6) -- De'Aaron Fox/Domantas Sabonis
2024 -- Boston Celtics (+7.9) -- Jayson Tatum/Jaylen Brown

[tpols]

Crazy how the Kings peaked like that and then just fell off a cliff.

[tpols]

Also interesting...

Dirk / Nash Mavs. By far highest peak offense all time it looks like at +9.2, unless I'm reading this wrong. We got cheated as fans to miss out on that combo 2005-2010. Holy shit.

[ArbitraryWater]

Dirk and Nash completely owning this from 2002 to 2011 is pretty cool :D

[Xiao Yao You]

The jazz despite gobert being an awdul offensive player according the troll brigade :roll:

[Phoenix]

Dirk and Nash in the 2000's stands out to me too. They're kind of considered in the 2nd tier of stars for the decade (after Shaq, Duncan, Kobe who ruled over the title picture) but they truly were great offensive quarterbacks in their respective ways. And notably they were able to lead offenses independent of each other.

[dankok8]

Also interesting...

Dirk / Nash Mavs. By far highest peak offense all time it looks like at +9.2, unless I'm reading this wrong. We got cheated as fans to miss out on that combo 2005-2010. Holy shit.

Yep. The 2004 Mavs are the best offense of all time.

[Phoenix]

Imagine MVP Nash on the Mavs after 2005. They had to have broken through at some point and won it all, right?

[dankok8]

It's pretty likely. If Dirk didn't go down in the WCF, they actually could have already won in 2003.

[ArbitraryWater]

Im guessing the 2011 Mavs werent far behind the Nuggets?

[Im Still Ballin]

Melo and Chauncey were traded two-thirds through the 2010-11 season. Not adjusted for SOS, but the team got markedly better, all on defense.


With Melo: 113.3 ORtg (+6.0 rORtg); 110.3 DRtg (+3.0 rDRtg); +3.0 rNet [50 games]
Without Melo: 112.2 ORtg (+4.9 rORtg); 104.1 DRtg (-3.2 rDRtg); +8.1 rNet [32 games]

Difference: -1.1 ORtg; +6.2 DRtg; +5.1 rNet

I hope I've used rNet properly here dankok. Is rNet just rORtg + or - rDRtg together? How does it compare to SRS?

[Im Still Ballin]

Also, notice how most of the top offenses are driven by guards and forwards, not centers. Even before the addition of the three-point line. I actually think things were more balanced prior to the three-point shot.

[dankok8]

Melo and Chauncey were traded two-thirds through the 2010-11 season. Not adjusted for SOS, but the team got markedly better, all on defense.

I hope I've used rNet properly here dankok. Is rNet just rORtg + or - rDRtg together? How does it compare to SRS?

Yes you used it properly but in the RS, but there's no need to call it rNet. You can get it by doing either ORtg - DRtg or rORtg - rDRtg so it's just Net. Call it simply Net.

In the PS, it adjusts for specific opponents so then rNet = rORtg - rDRtg and Net = ORtg - DRtg are separate metrics and you'll get different numbers for rNet and Net. In the PS, rNet is a much better metric than just raw Net which doesn't adjust for opposition strength.

SRS adjusts for strength of opposition but isn't pace adjusted. A +5 SRS team playing at fast pace is less impressive than a +5 SRS team playing at low pace. rNet is pace adjusted because it's per 100 possessions.

[warriorfan]

Yes you used it properly but in the RS, but there's no need to call it rNet. You can get it by doing either ORtg - DRtg or rORtg - rDRtg so it's just Net. Call it simply Net.

In the PS, it adjusts for specific opponents so then rNet = rORtg - rDRtg and Net = ORtg - DRtg are separate metrics and you'll get different numbers for rNet and Net. In the PS, rNet is a much better metric than just raw Net which doesn't adjust for opposition strength.

SRS adjusts for strength of opposition but isn't pace adjusted. A +5 SRS team playing at fast pace is less impressive than a +5 SRS team playing at low pace. rNet is pace adjusted because it's per 100 possessions.

Hmm I don’t think I knew about the SRS and pace thing. Interesting.

[dankok8]

Fun Fact: KD is the only star to have a #1 offense on three different teams: 2013 Thunder, 2017/2019 Warriors, 2021 Nets.

[Phoenix]

Fun Fact: KD is the only star to have a #1 offense on three different teams: 2013 Thunder, 2017/2019 Warriors, 2021 Nets.

I think that says as much about the caliber of rosters he's played with as it does his ability to lift team offenses. It always feels a bit under-spoken how much talent he's played with throughout his career.

[ArbitraryWater]

Fun Fact: KD is the only star to have a #1 offense on three different teams: 2013 Thunder, 2017/2019 Warriors, 2021 Nets.


Curry and Harden had more to do with 2 of those than him :lol

[AussieSteve]

Not surprised to Barkley leading #1 offences in back to back years.

If only he didn't waste his best years at Philly.

[tpols]

I think that says as much about the caliber of rosters he's played with as it does his ability to lift team offenses. It always feels a bit under-spoken how much talent he's played with throughout his career.

The Thunder and Nets would've been nowhere close to #1 without Durant. With how much team hopping goes on nowadays KD isn't even really special in that regard.

Does make you wonder how Durant got #1 offense with Westbrook and Kyrie but Lebron could never do it.

[tpols]

Curry and Harden had more to do with 2 of those than him :lol

If it happens over and over on separate teams it's not a coincidence anymore.

[ShawkFactory]

The Thunder and Nets would've been nowhere close to #1 without Durant. With how much team hopping goes on nowadays KD isn't even really special in that regard.

Does make you wonder how Durant got #1 offense with Westbrook and Kyrie but Lebron could never do it.

Depends on who you're competing with I guess. I think the Cavs were 2nd every year behind the Warriors from 15-17.

[ArbitraryWater]

If it happens over and over on separate teams it's not a coincidence anymore.

Of course not, KD has been a great player, but hes not been the main reason for 2 of the 3 times it happened.

[Phoenix]

The Thunder and Nets would've been nowhere close to #1 without Durant. With how much team hopping goes on nowadays KD isn't even really special in that regard.



The Nets were 1st in 2021 with Durant playing 32 games( less than Kyrie and Harden). They were also 11th with him playing 55 games in 2022( more than Kyrie and Harden). So I wouldn't necessarily leap to the conclusion that his presence automatically equated with an elite offensive ranking.

Also, the 2016 and 2017 Cavs were ranked 3rd in offense chiefly powered by Lebron and Kyrie. Of course the Warriors with KD were number 1, except the Warriors were also number 1 the prior year without him.

[tpols]

The Nets were 1st in 2021 with Durant playing 32 games( less than Kyrie and Harden). They were also 11th with him playing 55 games in 2022( more than Kyrie and Harden). So I wouldn't necessarily leap to the conclusion that his presence automatically equated with an elite offensive ranking.

If he did it on 3 separate teams it kind of means something. Kevin Durant is one of the best offensive players of all time and this list is basically a whose who of all time great offensive players. Which is crazy because both Kobe and Lebron never made it.

[ArbitraryWater]

If he did it on 3 separate teams it kind of means something. Kevin Durant is one of the best offensive players of all time and this list is basically a whose who of all time great offensive players. Which is crazy because both Kobe and Lebron never made it.


Bro is literally telling you one of those 1st offense finishes came with KD playing a mere 35 games (re-einforcing my point about Harden), and you just revert to "it means something though" ? :lol

Yes, it means he joined forces with 2 other teams/players that led the leagues best offense

[Phoenix]

If he did it on 3 separate teams it kind of means something. Kevin Durant is one of the best offensive players of all time and this list is basically a whose who of all time great offensive players. Which is crazy because both Kobe and Lebron never made it.

He is, but he has also played with great offensive talent. The Warriors offense was #1 in 2016 without him, and the Nets having a higher offense when he played less than Kyrie/Harden and lower when he played more than them tippy-toes around some obvious caveats to the idea of 'he did it on 3 separate teams'. Basically two of the 3 teams were going to field elite offenses whether he was on the team or not. Why haven't the Suns been nowhere near #1 with him on if his offensive effect is so inevitable?

[ArbitraryWater]

The Thunder and Nets would've been nowhere close to #1 without Durant.

So basically, this is very false :lol

[Phoenix]

Bro is literally telling you one of those 1st offense finishes came with KD playing a mere 35 games (re-einforcing my point about Harden), and you just revert to "it means something though" ? :lol

Yes, it means he joined forces with 2 other teams/players that led the leagues best offense

He made that comment hoping I wouldn't look under the hood. I'm gonna stop short of saying KD playing more than Kyrie/Harden in 2022 'craters' the offense more than uplifts it, but playing the least games in 2021 compared to those two and they're still #1 should draw a conclusion that Kyrie and Harden as a duo would have lead an elite offense with or without KD. I'm not sure what else one would take from those numbers.

[tpols]

He is, but he has also played with great offensive talent. The Warriors offense was #1 in 2016 without him, and the Nets having a higher offense when he played less than Kyrie/Harden and lower when he played more than them tippy-toes around some obvious caveats to the idea of 'he did it on 3 separate teams'. Basically two of the 3 teams were going to field elite offenses whether he was on the team or not. Why haven't the Suns been nowhere near #1 with him on if his offensive effect is so inevitable?

Everybody plays with great offensive talent nowadays. Would it have been tougher to get the #1 offense with Westbrook or with prime Shaq, Wade, AD or Luka? Everybody has played with a ton of star talent. Very few have been a main contributor on multiple #1 offenses regardless.

KD in 2021 also averaged 27 ppg on 67 TS in the 30+ games he played. His offensive production was phenomenal that year and he carried it over into the playoffs.

2021 Durant may have been peak KD.

[ArbitraryWater]

He made that comment hoping I wouldn't look under the hood. I'm gonna stop short of saying KD playing more than Kyrie/Harden in 2022 'craters' the offense more than uplifts it, but playing the least games in 2021 compared to those two and they're still #1 should draw a conclusion that Kyrie and Harden as a duo would have lead an elite offense with or without KD. I'm not sure what else one would take from those numbers.


I forgot just how little KD played that year.


Btw, KD also missed 20 games in 2016/2017, in which GSW went 16-4. 8 of the wins were by 15 or more. After starting 3-4 without him, they ended up winning 13 straight before he returned.

Safe to say the offense prob was rolling at the exact same beat.


So as I said, KD was quite clearly not the number 1 contributor to that on 2 of the 3 teams.

[ArbitraryWater]

Everybody plays with great offensive talent nowadays. Would it have been tougher to get the #1 offense with Westbrook or with prime Shaq, Wade, AD or Luka? Everybody has played with a ton of star talent. Very few have been a main contributor on multiple #1 offenses regardless.

KD in 2021 also averaged 27 ppg on 67 TS in the 30+ games he played. His offensive production was phenomenal that year and he carried it over into the playoffs.

2021 Durant may have been peak KD.

And Harden averaged 26/9/11 (!!) in 2021 before going down with injury.

Everyone has great years like this.

This thread is about leading the top offense, something entirely different.

You tried to give KD credit for doing it on 3 different teams, when in reality the credit is more accurately assorted when given to a teammate of his.

You can try to generalize as much as you want "everyone plays with great teammates", but if you want to specifically give KD full credit for 3 different teams, you will have to specifically look at those years and realize KD was not the main contributor to that happening.

[Phoenix]

Everybody plays with great offensive talent nowadays. Would it have been tougher to get the #1 offense with Westbrook or with prime Shaq, Wade, AD or Luka? Everybody has played with a ton of star talent. Very few have been a main contributor on multiple #1 offenses regardless.

KD in 2021 also averaged 27 ppg on 67 TS in the 30+ games he played. His offensive production was phenomenal that year and he carried it over into the playoffs.

None of this negates the main point being said, but I get it. You made a statement and feel compelled to double down regardless of the numbers not really aligning with said statement. And when the numbers don't align with your argument, you instead resort to dropping superlative or trying to bring hypotheticals in to obfuscate the core conversation.

"He's one of the greatest offensive players ever".

"Phenomenal". Etc etc.

None of that is in question. None of it counters that the Warriors were a number 1 ranked offense pre-KD, and the Nets were the top ranked offense with him playing less than half the year, and fell out of the top 10 when he played more games than the guys you're saying wouldn't have been close to #1 without him. There's no data points that actually back up your assertion.

[Xiao Yao You]

Everybody plays with great offensive talent nowadays. Would it have been tougher to get the #1 offense with Westbrook or with prime Shaq, Wade, AD or Luka? Everybody has played with a ton of star talent. Very few have been a main contributor on multiple #1 offenses regardless.

KD in 2021 also averaged 27 ppg on 67 TS in the 30+ games he played. His offensive production was phenomenal that year and he carried it over into the playoffs.

2021 Durant may have been peak KD.

By troll logic it would have been tougher with gobert yet him and conley did it :roll:

[tpols]

He made that comment hoping I wouldn't look under the hood. I'm gonna stop short of saying KD playing more than Kyrie/Harden in 2022 'craters' the offense more than uplifts it, but playing the least games in 2021 compared to those two and they're still #1 should draw a conclusion that Kyrie and Harden as a duo would have lead an elite offense with or without KD. I'm not sure what else one would take from those numbers.

The only way your comment would've made sense is if you could prove in the games without KD the Nets were #1 rank offense. Which is beyond dubious and I guarantee you can't prove.

If anything all the those games Durant played in shooting almost 70 TS on huge volume probably elevated their rank from top 10 ish to #1.

[ArbitraryWater]

The only way your comment would've made sense is if you could prove in the games without KD the Nets were #1 rank offense. Which is beyond dubious and I guarantee you can't prove.

If anything all the those games Durant played in shooting almost 70 TS on huge volume probably elevated their rank from top 10 ish to #1.


So at best (for KDs/your case), he improved what was a, maybe 2nd best offense without him, to 1st best.

Is that supposed to be impressive?

If what youre assuming is even true.

[ArbitraryWater]

This is the part where tpols goes into full stubborn lockdown mode.

Guy can never admit when he came to a conclusion that was clearly wrong.


Pride is a motherfcker.

[Phoenix]

I forgot just how little KD played that year.


Btw, KD also missed 20 games in 2016/2017, in which GSW went 16-4. 8 of the wins were by 15 or more. After starting 3-4 without him, they ended up winning 13 straight before he returned.

Safe to say the offense prob was rolling at the exact same beat.


So as I said, KD was quite clearly not the number 1 contributor to that on 2 of the 3 teams.

A common talking during those KD-Warriors years was how the Warriors offense functioned better( and the team W/L record reflected it) when Steph played and KD didn't, vs when Steph was out and KD played. Steph's gravity has more of a 'rising tide lifts all boats' effect that even Tpols on his most defiant days would agree to.

[tpols]

Yes... being on multiple #1 offenses as a superstar performer is impressive. That shouldn't be news to you. Your ego isn't letting you admit to basic common sense.

[ArbitraryWater]

Yes... being on multiple #1 offenses as a superstar performer is impressive. That shouldn't be news to you. Your ego isn't letting you admit to basic common sense.

It is impressive.

But you tried to claim it was some historic achievement that others couldnt/didnt achieve, and you were badly missing context in that claim, as pointed out several times.

[Phoenix]

The only way your comment would've made sense is if you could prove in the games without KD the Nets were #1 rank offense. Which is beyond dubious and I guarantee you can't prove.

If anything all the those games Durant played in shooting almost 70 TS on huge volume probably elevated their rank from top 10 ish to #1.

The obvious counterpoint to that is you prove that the Nets games with KD unquestionably correlated with the #1 ranking more than with Harden and Kyrie did which I similarly guarantee you can't prove. No, telling me his numbers in a vacuum isn't proof. No, telling me he's one of the greatest offensive players ever isn't proof. No, asking what a bunch of other random players would or wouldn't do isn't proof either. It's just empty noise.

And really, you made the initial proclamation equating KD's presence being the chief factor in those #1 offenses, so the burden of proof lies on your side. I'm simply extrapolating that the less KD played on those Nets teams the higher the ranking, and the more he played the lower. The numbers are the numbers as they say. I can just as easily say that in 2022, if Kyrie and Harden played more their offensive rank would 'probably' have been higher, simply by correlating it to the numbers from 2021. There is no 'proof' without question one way or another, but there are things we can reasonably extrapolate from the data and it's less on your side of the argument.

[tpols]

Yes a superstar scorer putting up almost 30 ppg on super elite efficiency is a "chief factor" in the multiple offenses said player was on being elite. Your whole stance is goofy.

KD was basically averaging MJ numbers on the Thunder, Warriors, and Nets when they were killing the league. That counts little buddy.

[Phoenix]

The Warriors were the 2nd offense in 2015, and 1st in 2016, little buddy. The only thing goofy here is acting like KD should be given credit for an existing #1 offense with his spot being occupied by Harrison Barnes. But by all means continue to double down on being obtuse with your usual brand of thinking dropping 'super elite efficiency' rhetoric is supposed to trump basic sense that nobody playing 32 games out of 82 can be chiefly responsible for a number one offense. Or given any credit for not fukking up what was already a #1 offense before he arrived. You're a clown.

[tpols]

The Warriors offensive rank obviously doesnt count for much in KDs case. The fact that it happened on the Nets and the Thunder too though kills your case that was an outlier.

Dankok brought up the offensive success that Durant enjoyed across multiple teams and you immediately got defensive and are now saying he wasn't a driving factor or major part of those offenses.

:lol

You can't even make this stuff up.

[ArbitraryWater]

The Warriors offensive rank obviously doesnt count for much in KDs case. The fact that it happened on the Nets and the Thunder too though kills your case that was an outlier.

Dankok brought up the offensive success that Durant enjoyed across multiple teams and you immediately got defensive and are now saying he wasn't a driving factor or major part of those offenses.

:lol

You can't even make this stuff up.


Nope, still no one saying that.


tpols muddying the waters again

[ArbitraryWater]

Does tpols understand the difference between "the driving factor" and "a driving factor" ?

Because he keeps disagreeing with us but then his inner shame doesnt allow him to use the exact same wording we use and he always changes it :lol

We never said he wasnt a driving factor, he just wasnt the driving factor.

All the evidence and stats clearly show this.

[Phoenix]

The Warriors offensive rank obviously doesnt count for much in KDs case. The fact that it happened on the Nets and the Thunder too though kills your case that was an outlier.

Dankok brought up the offensive success that Durant enjoyed across multiple teams and you immediately got defensive and are now saying he wasn't a driving factor or major part of those offenses.

:lol

You can't even make this stuff up.

If the Warriors rank doesn't count for much, then there is no point saying 'he was on 3 separate #1 teams' in a manner suggesting that was chiefly because of him when it wasn't. The only caveat-free offense you could say he was THE driving force of was in OKC, but that wasn't good enough for you.

Last I checked you felt compelled to reply to me saying that KD playing on multiple elite offenses says as much about the quality of his rosters as it does him. KD is a great offensive player. He's played with great talent. The only person defensive here is you because you seem to think both of those things can't be true.

Your entire premise started from the idea that the Nets never would have been close to #1 without KD. You can't tapdance around the logic that someone playing 32 games out of 82 can't be the driving factor of that. 'A' driving force for the games he played? Ok. But the other 50 games without him should have cratered the offense since he wasn't there to uplift it. Except that didn't happened, and you've yet to explain why.

So yes, you can't make this stuff up.

:lol

[Phoenix]

Does tpols understand the difference between "the driving factor" and "a driving factor" ?

Because he keeps disagreeing with us but then his inner shame doesnt allow him to use the exact same wording we use and he always changes it :lol

We never said he wasnt a driving factor, he just wasnt the driving factor.

All the evidence and stats clearly show this.

Nope. Because at no point has anyone actually said he was not 'a' driving force. But creating talking points that nobody is arguing is something you'll find in pretty much any discussion with him. Pretty much his M.O...

[tpols]

You literally said that the burden of proof lies on me to show that Kevin ****ing Durant was a "chief factor" on these offenses that made them great... like it wasnt already obvious he was putting up all time great offensive production on those very teams.

And then had the audacity to imply KD was a non factor and just a tag along guy.

:roll:

Just found this bit from the 2021 Nets regular season as well.



With Kevin Durant returning after missing three games due to COVID health and safety protocols, the Nets beat the Golden State Warriors 134-117 on Saturday night, their first game topping 120 points since the last time Durant played a full game; a 124-120 win over the LA Clippers on Feb. 2.

The Nets have now played six full games with the Durant/Harden/Irving trio all active (discounting Durant’s fractured evening against Toronto) and they’re 5-1 in those games, including five straight wins.

Against Golden State, they combined for 62 points and 26 assists, with the Nets plus-22 in the 21 minutes they played together. Over those 22 minutes, Brooklyn shot 58.8 percent overall and 43.8 percent from 3-point range, with the Nets posting a 144.9 offensive efficiency over that stretch.


To act like Kevin Durant wasn't a chief factor or driving force... whatever words you want to use... on the 2021 Nets is just plain ignorant.

[Phoenix]

You literally said that the burden of proof lies on me to show that Kevin ****ing Durant was a "chief factor" on these offenses that made them great... like it wasnt already obvious he was putting up all time great offensive production on those very teams.

And then had the audacity to imply KD was a non factor and just a tag along guy.

:roll:

Just found this bit from the 2021 Nets regular season as well.



To act like Kevin Durant wasn't a chief factor or driving force... whatever words you want to use... on the 2021 Nets is just plain ignorant.

The burden of proof literally is on you. I said KD being on these elite #1 teams says as much about the quality of his roster as it does him. That is an opinion based on knowing who he has played with. You reply that the Nets wouldn't have been near #1 without KD. Was that your opinion, or were you stating it as fact? Everything about your tone suggests the latter. So yes, the burden of proof lies on you to back that up. You were countered with numbers to show he missed nearly 2/3 of the year the Nets had the #1 offense. So he could only be credited with a fair share for the 32 games he played, and none for the 50 games he didn't. You were also shown numbers that for the following year when he played more than Harden and Kyrie, the offense dropped from #1 to #11. A reasonable mind, hell a 5 year old, would question why him playing MORE games had this effect.

Here again, is where you do the dumb straw-man thing. NOBODY is here saying KD was a ZERO factor. In fact, I literally just said the OKC Thunder are the team you can unequivocally say he was THE driving force of the offense, especially because as dynamic as Westbook was he was never a great X's and O's floor general. That's a mini-miracle until itself and testament to KD in THAT situation. So that unto itself is enough reason for you to shut the fukk up with that nonsense. You're simply trying to push the idea that his mere presence automatically engineered #1 offenses when that wasn't the case with the Warriors (which you have no choice but to admit) or the Suns who've never been close to #1 for all the myriad of reasons it hasn't happened even though his numbers are still 'super elite efficient'. Let's just drop the idea that KD stepping on a court automatically takes a team to the #1 offense in all instances. It hasn't, and it doesn't.

You have no choice but to acknowledge the Warriors enjoyed two full seasons of being #1/#2 elite offenses with KD. You literally CANNOT credit him with their #1 ranking in 2017 beyond giving him fair credit for his skills actually being portable enough to fit in and MAINTAIN what was already an all-time offense. That is a legit credit to him as well, but that's not enough hyperbolic knob-slurping for you.

The real point of contention is the 2021 Nets, and we've beat around the bush enough so I'll ask the following:

1) How much credit should be assigned to KD for their #1 ranking for the 32 games he played?

2) How much credit should be assigned to KD for their #1 ranking for the 50 games he didn't play?

3) Why didn't the team's ranking crater if he missed most of the year and he's chiefly responsible for them being anywhere near #1 ( your words)?

4) Why isn't he chiefly liable for them being #11 in 2021 playing 55 games? Or does the door only swing one way in terms of his team offensive impact?

4) James Harden played three more games than KD, 35 to Durant's 32. How did Harden get on the MVP ladder at #13 instead of KD?

That last one will be spun as 'who cares, the MVP award doesn't mean anything or being 13# is irrelevant'...but let's have fun with that.

Now you can drop the incredulous routine. You aren't that dense to not understand what's being said to you. You're just fukking arrogant enough to die on a hill that the sky is green once you've drawn a line in the sand.

[dankok8]

2021 Brooklyn Nets ORtg (rORtg)

With Durant - 35 games: 120.1 (+7.8)
Without Durant - 37 games: 117.7 (+5.4)

With Harden - 36 games: 120.7 (+8.4)
Without Harden - 36 games: 117.1 (+4.8)

Source: statmuse

Lineup Data -- ON Court ORtg (rORtg)

Durant ON Harden ON : 124.3 (+12.0)/298 minutes
Durant ON Harden OFF: 124.8 (+12.5)/845 minutes
Durant OFF Harden ON: 120.3 (+8.0)/1008 minutes
Durant OFF Harden OFF: 113.0 (+0.7)/1281 minutes

https://i.postimg.cc/j23tR6PP/2021-Nets-Durant-Harden.jpg

KD lineups look better but he played fewer minutes. I would probably say they were copilots on that offense and give KD a slight overall edge but it's shocking how much time both of them missed. Especially considering they barely played in the same games together. Only 298 minutes together on the floor for an entire season is insane! They basically took turns on that team.

[tpols]

That's actually pretty crazy. Not only does the above data show Durants tremendous offensive impact on the Nets, but they somehow had a better offensive rating with KD on and Harden out than they had with both of them playing together. Although both ranks were super elite.

[Phoenix]

2021 Brooklyn Nets ORtg (rORtg)

With Durant - 35 games: 120.1 (+7.8)
Without Durant - 37 games: 117.7 (+5.4)

With Harden - 36 games: 120.7 (+8.4)
Without Harden - 36 games: 117.1 (+4.8)

Source: statmuse

Lineup Data -- ON Court ORtg (rORtg)

Durant ON Harden ON : 124.3 (+12.0)/298 minutes
Durant ON Harden OFF: 124.8 (+12.5)/845 minutes
Durant OFF Harden ON: 120.3 (+8.0)/1008 minutes
Durant OFF Harden OFF: 113.0 (+0.7)/1281 minutes

https://i.postimg.cc/j23tR6PP/2021-Nets-Durant-Harden.jpg

KD lineups look better but he played fewer minutes. I would probably say they were copilots on that offense and give KD a slight overall edge but it's shocking how much time both of them missed. Especially considering they barely played in the same games together. Only 298 minutes together on the floor for an entire season is insane! They basically took turns on that team.

Precisely, otherwise the team would have cratered. The offense was being held together in spite of the core three dipping in and out of the lineup. What does Kyrie and Harden together look like?

[dankok8]

https://i.postimg.cc/fRXYQxRp/2021-Nets-Durant-Harden-Kyrie.jpg

The lineup data definitely likes KD.

[ArbitraryWater]

2021 Brooklyn Nets ORtg (rORtg)

With Durant - 35 games: 120.1 (+7.8)
Without Durant - 37 games: 117.7 (+5.4)

With Harden - 36 games: 120.7 (+8.4)
Without Harden - 36 games: 117.1 (+4.8)

Source: statmuse


So where would +5.4 have ranked? tpols said Nets without KD were top 10 ish. lets see if tpols spoke the truth or not.


This confirms that Harden made the biggest difference / created the best offense or at the very least gets co-credit with KD.

Which again, is all any logical person is saying.

KD was a driving factor, not the driving factor.

He was a busrider, like he always has been since OKC.


If you could do this for the 2016/2017 Warriors also, thatd be cool.

[ArbitraryWater]

But again, this entire conversation is moot.


Trying to prop up KD as some historically good/rare player, like you couldnt stick any top 15-20 all timer offensive player on a team next to prime Harden/Kyrie and prime Curry/Klay/Green on a 73-win season and get the best offense out of it, is absurd.

If those teams wouldnt be the best offense, somehting would seriously have gone wrong.

"Why didnt others do it"

what other GOATs even attempt to play on 3 different teams within their prime? :lol

Never the less joining the leagues best offense on 1 occasion and on another teaming up with 2 players that have led the leagues best offense and sidekicked the 2nd best offense...

[ShawkFactory]

But again, this entire conversation is moot.


Trying to prop up KD as some historically good/rare player, like you couldnt stick any top 15-20 all timer offensive player on a team next to prime Harden/Kyrie and prime Curry/Klay/Green on a 73-win season and get the best offense out of it, is absurd.

If those teams wouldnt be the best offense, somehting would seriously have gone wrong.

"Why didnt others do it"

what other GOATs even attempt to play on 3 different teams within their prime? :lol

Never the less joining the leagues best offense on 1 occasion and on another teaming up with 2 players that have led the leagues best offense and sidekicked the 2nd best offense...

Lebron won titles with 3 different teams. No one else has done that, so there’s gotta be something to that too. Right? :lol

[tpols]

https://i.postimg.cc/fRXYQxRp/2021-Nets-Durant-Harden-Kyrie.jpg

The lineup data definitely likes KD.

Yup.

That's about what I would've thought eye test wise. Kevin Durant was clearly the best player on the 2021 Nets.

[tpols]

But again, this entire conversation is moot.


Trying to prop up KD as some historically good/rare player, like you couldnt stick any top 15-20 all timer offensive player on a team next to prime Harden/Kyrie and prime Curry/Klay/Green on a 73-win season and get the best offense out of it, is absurd.

If those teams wouldnt be the best offense, somehting would seriously have gone wrong.

"Why didnt others do it"

what other GOATs even attempt to play on 3 different teams within their prime? :lol

Never the less joining the leagues best offense on 1 occasion and on another teaming up with 2 players that have led the leagues best offense and sidekicked the 2nd best offense...

Dude... Durant is just as good as somebody like Dirk or Nash who are on this list multiple times as well. These are all tremendous offensive talents. Rare and great basketball players offensively. Appreciate them instead of acting goofy and hating.

[ArbitraryWater]

Lebron won titles with 3 different teams. No one else has done that, so there’s gotta be something to that too. Right? :lol

Bro he won it on 3 different teams.

Why didnt anyone else do that?!

[ArbitraryWater]

Dude... Durant is just as good as somebody like Dirk or Nash who are on this list multiple times as well. These are all tremendous offensive talents. Rare and great basketball players offensively. Appreciate them instead of acting goofy and hating.


sorry son, you already claimed the all time goofy statement of this thread with "Does make you wonder how Durant got #1 offense with Westbrook and Kyrie but Lebron could never do it."

[tpols]

sorry son, you already claimed the all time goofy statement of this thread with "Does make you wonder how Durant got #1 offense with Westbrook and Kyrie but Lebron could never do it."

Let it go then. Temper your emotions. Kobe never did it either. Its going to be OK. But pretty much everyone on this list who did was a rare and elite offensive talent, and especially anybody who did it multiple times.

We should be talking about Reggie here too. Was leading offenses like that with no superstar help and then doubling down in the playoffs balling.

[ShawkFactory]

Let it go then. Temper your emotions. Kobe never did it either. Its going to be OK. But pretty much everyone on this list who did was a rare and elite offensive talent, and especially anybody who did it multiple times.

We should be talking about Reggie here too. Was leading offenses like that with no superstar help and then doubling down in the playoffs balling.

Reggie wasn’t a superstar himself.

[RRR3]

Reggie wasn’t a superstar himself.
:lol

[tpols]

Reggie wasn’t a superstar himself.

Offensively Reggie was a superstar player for sure. All the individual and team metrics bear that out especially in the playoffs.

Reggie was kind of like Jimmy Butler in that he coasted the regular season but the spacing and efficiency and distraction to the defense he provided was extremely valuable and allowed the Pacers to have some great offenses. The best player he ever played with was Rik Smits. Or Jalen Rose. Which is historically weak when we compare to other all time great players.

If Reggie could be the biggest contributor to a multiple #1 offenses with no true star help it's crazy to think what he'd do if he had it. He's the only name on this list I think that did this multiple times with no real star help.

Relating back to the previous discussion KD, Lebron, and even Kobe had way way more offensive help than Miller.

[ShawkFactory]

Again, if there was a true star on the team Reggie wouldn't have been the best player. He would have been the “help”.

He was like a Mitchell or Devin Booker level player for his time at most. Really good, and played on really good and well-disciplined teams. Not a superstar.

[tpols]

Again, if there was a true star on the team Reggie wouldn't have been the best player. He would have been the “help”.

He was like a Mitchell or Devin Booker level player for his time at most. Really good, and played on really good and well-disciplined teams. Not a superstar.

Thats not really a problem though because OPs list includes two names for a bunch of teams.

I know it may seem mind blowing but you can have two offensive superstar talents on the same team. Just because one is better than the other doesn't mean the other guy sucks or isn't putting up production that is facilitating a top ranked offense.

It's not all black and white. 2001 Kobe is better than a handful of guys who won MVP like Rose Westbrook Iverson and Nash... just because he wasn't quite as good as Shaq in the early 2000s doesn't mean he wasn't a superstar offensive talent.

You have to apply context.

[ShawkFactory]

No im not saying it would have been like Shaq and Kobe in 2001. I’m saying it would be like Bird and McHale. Or Magic and Worthy in the early 90s.

[tpols]

Most people would consider Kevin McHale and James Worthy superstar scorers tbh. Their offense was all time great too.

[Xiao Yao You]

Superstar being thrown around so much it means little