Jokic is the 4th best player of all time

[StrongLurk]

Don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that just like MJ/Lebron were. MJ was crowned best ever before his career finished. Lebron hit that same pedestal. Jokic is there too.

Kareem, MJ, Lebron, Jokic - 4 best players based on "on the court" ability.

[SouBeachTalents]

Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic

I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.

[BarberSchool]

*Ghost of Kobe brutally posterizes thread*

*Shaq shatters backboard*

*Bird & Magic speak volumes with only smug facial expressions*

[RRR3]

Duh-uh-uh-uhhh
:biggums:

[StrongLurk]

Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic

I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.

Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.

Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.

[StrongLurk]

:biggums:

You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.

[SouBeachTalents]

Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.

Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.
:biggums:

[tpols]

Nah I really think he's the GOAT. I want to see him play with a superstar sidekick though. Every other great player nowadays and even in the past got to play on loaded teams. Imagine if Jokic got to play with prime Penny, Kobe, and Wade like Shaq did instead of just jamal Murray whose a pipsqueak version of those guys. It would be an avalanche for Yolk.

[RRR3]

D-uh-uh-uh-uh-uhhh-uhhh
:lol

[RRR3]

:biggums:
OP thinks defense doesn't exist :roll:

[tpols]

*Ghost of Kobe brutally posterizes thread*

*Shaq shatters backboard*

*Bird & Magic speak volumes with only smug facial expressions*

To be fair jokic is basically a bigger rich man's Bird. Much bigger too.

[RRR3]

Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic

I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.
Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Olajuwon vs Jokic is a debate. People on this site don't care about defense so I world expect opinion to go for Jokic but Olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time along with being a great offensive player.

[GOBB]

Prisoners of moments

[RRR3]

Prisoners of moments
That's every OP thread. Straight up clickbait, the ****ing buzzfeed of ISH.

[StrongLurk]

Prisoners of moments

Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:

Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.

Magic -> Lebron
Bird -> Jokic

This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.

[Neal Romer]

Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.

That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.

People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say he needs to do this or that still which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.

And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.

So everyone has their place.

[StrongLurk]

Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.

That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.

People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say he needs to do this or that still which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.

And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.

So everyone has their place.

Fine let's rephrase from Jokic is "4th best" to Jokic is a top 4 player of all time (so any order you want then).

[Neal Romer]

Fine let's rephrase from Jokic is "4th best" to Jokic is a top 4 player of all time (so any order you want then).

As long as you got Lebron at #1, you can put whoever else you want wherever else you want ;)

[tpols]

Exact numerical rankings are frankly dumb. Separating guys to that fine a degree "hes first, and hes second, and hes third" is so subjective and arbitrary and erroneous. When youre talking about guys within the same general tier, what separates them is mainly just the circumstance they were in. Luck, team fit, era, and so on.

That said, Jokic is clearly up there as a player with anyone. Ive already said this for a couple years, you can put him in the category of best players ever alongside anyone else in it. If youre really perspicacious, you can see it pretty easily. Youre not scared to say something before it's acceptable.

People who wanna stick with generic formulas approved by "Wake Up With Mike Greenberg!" will say he needs to do this or that still which has nothing to do with his ability as a player, and they will obviously wait until the media says it's okay to rank him here or there, and then theyll do it. Thats the big bulk of standard humanity. Wait for the group to move first, then dutifully follow/agree.

And there theres guys like highwhey, rrr3 and gobb who are resentful and emotional about Jokic for personal reasons, and their view of him will be artificially diminished by the hurt they feel when Jokic succeeds.

So everyone has their place.

:lol

That was put very nicely.

[RRR3]

Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:

Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.

Magic -> Lebron
Bird -> Jokic

This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.
Bird played defense.

[Neal Romer]

Bird played defense.

Jokic is top 5 in steals. How do you steal the ball without playing defense?


Also... youre RRR3.

[Norcaliblunt]

How autistic do you have to be to constantly try and rank players in a team sport?

[Phoenix]

]Don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. [/B]Jokic is above all of that just like MJ/Lebron were. MJ was crowned best ever before his career finished. Lebron hit that same pedestal. Jokic is there too.

Kareem, MJ, Lebron, Jokic - 4 best players based on "on the court" ability.

He's no slouch in that dept either. 3 MVPs, 1 ring w/FVP before he turned 30. I think there is too much parity in the 20's for someone to win 4-5 rings this decade( especially since half of it is over) and he's probably gonna get robbed of a few MVPs for 'reasons'. But strictly as far as individual offensive ability and its effect to lift a team, we all see what we're seeing.

[Mask the Embiid]

Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.


Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the greatest defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be picked #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)



Jokic is better than a guy who averaged 24/17/5 and 5 blocks per game in the finals. lol you jokic stans disgust me....one championship top 4.....you are lucky im not a mod

[Neal Romer]

Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.


Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the great defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be pick #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)


https://media0.giphy.com/media/kkEm7G8KUezK/giphy.gif?cid=6c09b9527ol3hxpd6of8gjbqnpoztmosq6k4 nt4r98hz71y9&ep=v1_internal_gif_by_id&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g

[tpols]

Damn the 4th best player ever and he's only going to end up with 1 championship. The 4th best player ever yet he gets outplayed in his own era by Joel Embiid H2H. 4th best player ever yet the ball is in Jamal Murray's hands when the game is on the line in the playoffs.


Hakeem B2B champ (Considered by many as the great defensive center of all time)
Tim Duncan Dynasty starter (Greatest PF ever)
Shaq Dynastic Center (considered by many to be the most dominant player and if there was an all time draft he would be in the running to be pick #1 with Michael Jordan and LeBron James)
nikola jokc 1 nba championship (jamal murray averaged 26 points and was a 50/40/90 guy during the entire playoff run)

Imagine if you replaced Jamal Murray with prime Jimmy Butler. Embiid lost in the 2nd round with that and multiple other All Star talents. Tyrese Maxey is basically Jamal Murray and Embiid is 1st round or lotto with that help proven while Jokic is Champion.

[Mask the Embiid]

4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever!

[Wardell Curry]

4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever!

1 - Basketball is a team sport
2 - You're anti white

[SouBeachTalents]

4th best player ever yet he got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Ant man in a game 7 while at home....4th best ever!
Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.

[RRR3]

Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.
Who is claiming Embiid is top 4 though? Jokic fans are going totally overboard for a guy who's godawful at defense.

[tpols]

How the **** did Minnesota win that Game 7 with Antman scoring only 16 points on 24 shots.

He shot 25% from the field and 20% from 3. 32 TS%. Absolute disaster.

:biggums:

How did the Wolves win that game? I admittedly didn't watch it.

[Keno]

jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.

[Neal Romer]

Embiid got knocked out of the playoffs in his peak by a 22-year-old Trae in a game 7 while at home.

Yeah, Mask's criteria isnt really doing his guy any favors. If Jokic isnt all time great for not having x amount of this or that... then Embiid must be literally the worst all star level center to ever play.

It's just a game they cant win. When you keep rooting for a losing cause, you will keep taking L's. Rooting against Jokic is like rooting against Lebron. Be prepared for a lot of bitterness. Theyre gonna keep succeeding, while your existence is going to be pain.

[Neal Romer]

jokic plays negative defense, a lot of the assists he got last night weren't legit ones either, player took multiple dribbles or made their own shot, it was home treatment.

I agree they probably werent all valid assists. The record really doesnt matter. But anyone who cant see how impactful a player Jokic is, is probably trying not to look.

[sdot_thadon]

Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.

Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.

Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.

[tpols]

Jokic is great but you're smoking dope with Hakeem lol. Hakeem had elite 2 way impact on a game. Joker for all his offensive brilliance would be some ways down the list of the goat centers defensively. As far as him being the 4th best ever? On my list a guy that isn't a great defender at some point cant get past 5. I can't see a route to rate guys with relatively one way impact above 2 way all timers. Magic, Curry, Bird, and Joker fit this category for me personally.

Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.

[L.Kizzle]

Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.

There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks. You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?

[sdot_thadon]

Jokic makes up for his lack of defense with his passing and shooting. Just like Jokic could never dream of having the defensive impact of Hakeem, Hakeem could never dream of dropping 20+ dimes in a game or averaging 10+ in general. Past that scoring and rebounding are similar for them. So it evens out. Both all time great peaks.

Was a different game, centers weren't playing in the same spots on the court. But Hakeem was a one man no fly zone on the defensive end while being the go to guy on offense. No 90s center was gonna consistently get 10 dimes with the style of play back then. That said, watching the mid 90s Rockets Olajuwon created all the outside looks for the team just by being a truck load down low and in the mid post. His passing was pretty good for a big but the archetypes for position weren't going to allow him to play anything like Joker lol. However, there's nothing keeping Joker from playing like him defensively aside from ability lol.

[sdot_thadon]

You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?

:applause:

[Real Men Wear Green]

Is this due to the game he had last night? If so, Wilt did this routinely.
P
There's a game Wilt apparently had 53 points; 32 rebounds; 24 blocks; 14 assist and 11 steals.Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.

[Walk on Water]

Imo these guys are in the true GOAT tier peak

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Wilt
Jokic

I'm not sure where I'd rank Jokic amongst these guys yet, but I agree with OP that he belongs.


LeBron is not on that list. Jokic has more triple doubles in half the time. Jokic won without a true all star.

[tpols]

You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?

Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ìs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that.

Ðenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.

And we've seen that over and over.

[sdot_thadon]

Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.

Not to mention the way assists are counted now has changed massively compared to the 60s so with today's bean counters Wilt may have had some 30 20 20s or 50 20 20s.

[Neal Romer]

You are saying that one aspect of offense is just as important as the whole category of defense when defense is half the game. Prime example of how the importance of defense is underrated. Should Olajuwon get extra credit for averaging several more blocks or is that just one aspect of defense?

It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.

A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.

You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."

Rinse and repeat.

[Neal Romer]

Jokic's defense also isnt as bad as people think it is because they dont notice all the times his positioning/rotation prevents a basket. Simpler fans only notice blocks/direct contests. The Denver defense is always better with him on the court than without him. During their title run 'the metrics' had him on par with Giannis as a defender.

The problem is simple people trying to make statements about complex things. It's not a very good fit. And yet that never seems to stop them.

[L.Kizzle]

Possible but someone would have had to assign the blocks in retrospect because Wilt, Russell and others played before blocks were counted as an official stat. That's why Olajuwon has the all-time record instead of one of those two.

The guy from the Sixers kept count, it just wasn't a stat until the season after Wilt retired.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jokics offensive capability is higher than Hakeems. Not only ìs he a better and more efficient scorer, his passing is so GOAT it elevates the team offense to elite rank where as Hakeem never did that. Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury. With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?

Ðenver Nuggets are 2nd best offense in the league right now. 1994 and 1995 peak Hakeem led the 15th and 7th ranked offenses which is mid for playoff team. He wasn't a great passer. Just a great 1v1 iso scorer. Being able to dime at Yolks level unlocks a totally different team ceiling.

And we've seen that over and over. Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?

[tpols]

It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense.

A multiple time DPOY in Toody is getting constantly roasted today because of how quickly the evolution of the game has made defensive centers a near non factor.

You're stating something factually wrong and nonsensical because you dont want to have to adjust your views. Now that I've deconstructed your basketball points logically, you'll have a defensive feminine cattitude and say something like generic like "Well I dont care about your idiotic takes."

Rinse and repeat.

Yea that's true also.

With the proliferation of the 3 pt shot the defensive impact of past great centers would be greatly diminished today from an individual perspective since back in their era there was like triple the offensive action in the paint. So being able to limit that yield tremendous defensive results. Isn't going to be the same with today's spacing and shooting.

Hakeems defense 30 feet out is nothing like what he provided at the rim or in the post. And that's what he would be facing today over and over. Still could dominate but it would take a hit dragging him out 30 feet every time instead of constant paint camping.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It's not half the game for an individual. A single player can impact the game much more offensively than defensively. Scoring 1 on 5 is theoretically possible to do over and over. Defending 1 on 5 is not. Particularly in today's game with the spacing. If you put Jokic in an era where all he's expected to do is body up the other team's center, nobody would notice his defense. So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.

[Neal Romer]

Peak vs peak Jokic has a statistical edge in shooting %age but Olajuwon has a number of seasons where the scoring numbers are close and he was still shooting over 50%. And that's playing in a league where his only competition wasn't one guy in the other conference he only had to face once per year due to injury. With David Robinson and Dikembe Mutombo on him for 8 games a season plus having to deal with Ewing Zo and Shaq 2 games a year not including the playoffs Olajuwon's competition blows Jokic's away. Factoring in the playoffs, please give an example of Jokic going head-to-head with someone like Shaq. Never happened. You want to make a big deal over percentage points in the face of that?
Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship? Here's something for you to look up and pretend you know about: who was the second star during Olajuwon's first championship run, and how many points did he average?


So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinely?


My GOODNESS you are so... You're so........... errrrrrrrrgggggggggg, I'm not gonna be personally insulting. I'm not gonna insult anyone.

You are just.... youre Real Men Wear Green.

When people hear that name, the things they think about... that's you! That's your life, your personality. When you look in the mirror, you see Real Men Wear Green.

It's just crazy :lol

That wasnt techincally an insult. It's just a fact. Youre Real Men Wear Green.

[Neal Romer]

So you're argument is scoring 1 on 5 is possible... why don't you go find someone of something closer to average intelligence and have them try to debate for you. No, I'm not going to read the rest.

:lol


*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*


FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK


Youre Real Men Wear Green!


That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-


Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.

[tpols]

Who cares about the rank of the offense when you are winning the championship?

Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

*Raises hand*

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.

[Real Men Wear Green]

So he hasnt feasted on Anthony Davis across multiple playoff series? He doesnt put multiply DPOY Toody in a body bag routinelHe's 30 pins heavier than Davis who doesn't want to play center. You want to put Gobert on par with Ewing and Shaq? Whatever.

[tpols]

:lol


*DESPERATELY COVERS MOUTH TO KEEP FROM RETORTING*


FUUUUUUUUKKKKKKKKKKK


Youre Real Men Wear Green!


That should embarrass you so badly but I dont think youre smart enough to reali-


Fukkkkk. Nevermind! I wont say it. Youre just RMWG. That's all. Youre RMWG.

He is a character. :lol consistent too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

*Raises hand*

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks. You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?

[sdot_thadon]

Who cares about the rank of the offense a player leads when said player is arguably the greatest offensive player of all time?

*Raises hand*

Seems kind of important. And the funny thing is I agree with you. Jokic won his Championship by leading super elite offense, and Hakeem won his by leading middle offenses but great defense.

Both won, but in different ways with great impact on each players side. Like I said before... it all evens out and they both had GOAT peaks.

Actually, the Rockets won with the grandfather of the offenses that win now. Using an elite scoring threat to create open 3s and having shooters on the floor at every other position at times. Once we address that, then we can also talk about the elite defense he anchored for them.

[sdot_thadon]

You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?

He doesnt have a clue, he doesn't even know how the Rockets played then.

[tpols]

You didn't answer the question: That first championship, who was the Rockets' second scorer?

No worse than the Knicks 2nd option in 1994 championship fight. Actually mightve been better given what John Starks did.

But that's besides the point. Hakeem played a long time in the NBA and never led offenses on the level that Jokic has been doing. And he didn't play with only bums. 1995 Clyde Drexler played like a HOFer on Houston when they won and he's one of the best guards ever.

It's OK to admit Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem my friend. It's like... a literal fact at this point with a mountain of evidence behind it.

[StrongLurk]

Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.

Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.

[RRR3]

Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.

Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.
:roll: :roll: :roll:

BuzzfeedLurk at it again

[Real Men Wear Green]

But that's besides the point. Yes, it is. This is your second post where you don't answer the question. Drexler joined for the second championship. Who was the second scorer on that first title run?

[Neal Romer]

If you guys think putting Jokic on one team and Hakeem on another in any era creates some significant degree of advantage for Dream's side... then you just dont have much credibility.

All the semantics about shooting % or defensive ability etc are immaterial. Put each guy on a team with everything else the same, who has the advantage in an actual 5 on 5 game of basketball?

The answer is probably neither, but if it's anyone it's Jokic. He is historically offensively dominant. If you think it's Hakeem "bc defense" then you must have Artest up there with Kobe. Or Toody alongside prime healthy Embiid. Because theyre better defenders!

"But but but defense" isnt a good argument. Individuals impact defense far less than they impact offense.

So, thats it. Accept something that is correct, or keep being loudly stupid. Your call.

[tpols]

Yes, it is. This is your second post where you don't answer the question. Drexler joined for the second championship. Who was the second scorer on that first title run?

John Starks.

:lol

2/18.

That was Hakeems 2nd option.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic literally is all-time number one in a ton of advanced stats. Literally number 1.

It's hilarious seeing people try to down play him.

PER, BPM, WS/48, TS% (number 1 for volume scorers), etc. he's at the TOP of the list.

Jokic at his peak is the best combination of scoring/rebounding/passing by a good margin. The ONLY reason Jokic isn't the clear best player of all time is because he is average on defense. MJ/Kareem/Lebron's defensive capabilities at their peaks give them a SLIGHT edge over Jokic.

But Jokic absolutely dominates offense and rebounding at the highest combination (which is 2/3 of the game).

[sdot_thadon]

No worse than the Knicks 2nd option in 1994 championship fight. Actually mightve been better given what John Starks did.

But that's besides the point. Hakeem played a long time in the NBA and never led offenses on the level that Jokic has been doing. And he didn't play with only bums. 1995 Clyde Drexler played like a HOFer on Houston when they won and he's one of the best guards ever.

It's OK to admit Jokic is a better offensive player than Hakeem my friend. It's like... a literal fact at this point with a mountain of evidence behind it.

Wrong again. In 95 Clyde played like 2012 Dwade, a diminished version of himself bit still capable of bright spots at times. He wasn't Blazers Clyde anymore.

[Real Men Wear Green]

John Starks.

:lol

2/18.

That was Hakeems 2nd option.
So you won't even talk about the second scorer but want to act like the team offensive rating should be held against Olajuwon?

[sdot_thadon]

Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic offensively is straight up laughable.

Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.

Fixed that for you to make it true. There's more to basketball than just offense as well.

[Neal Romer]

So you won't even talk about the second scorer but want to act like the team offensive rating should be held against Olajuwon?


Youre RMWG!

[tpols]

Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.

This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.

It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol

[RRR3]

Jokic literally is all-time number one in a ton of advanced stats. Literally number 1.

It's hilarious seeing people try to down play him.

PER, BPM, WS/48, TS% (number 1 for volume scorers), etc. he's at the TOP of the list.

Jokic at his peak is the best combination of scoring/rebounding/passing by a good margin. The ONLY reason Jokic isn't the clear best player of all time is because he is average on defense. MJ/Kareem/Lebron's defensive capabilities at their peaks give them a SLIGHT edge over Jokic.

But Jokic absolutely dominates offense and rebounding at the highest combination (which is 2/3 of the game).
Box score stats lol.











Dim :(

[Real Men Wear Green]

Youre RMWG!
And you're arguing on the asinine premise that defense doesn't matter. You are attempting to be comic relief. Personally I don't find you funny. So I just don't see what you contribute. But I'm RMWG.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.

This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.

It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol
He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.

[Neal Romer]

And you're arguing on the asinine premise that defense doesn't matter. You are attempting to be comic relief. Personally I don't find you funny. So I just don't see what you contribute. But I'm RMWG.


:roll: :roll: :roll:


Thats awesome. But youre right. Arguing this over and over IS asinine. It doesnt matter what you think about Dream vs Joker. It doesnt matter what I think. We're dragging this out for multiple pages at the expense of much better things we could be doing with our time.


That's it. I'M RETIRING FROM INSIDEHOOPS for like at least a week. Starting now.

[SouBeachTalents]

Someone trying to claim Hakeem > Jokic is straight up laughable.

Please dont bring up Hakeem's rings. They were not only won in the WEAKEST time period of the three point era (90's), but he also won the 2 years when peak MJ retired.
RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.

[tpols]

He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.

Yes defense does matter. Which is why I said Hakeems defense bridges the gap between him and Jokic offense. And that it all evens out and they both have GOAT peaks. Seems like we're going in circles where you don't realize I'm agreeing with you.

[Mask the Embiid]

Hakeem never led an elite offense in his entire career I don't need to cherry pick one year. His offenses literally aren't even close to Jokics. Its not even close.

This site amazes me sometimes. Just in the past 25 hours I've had to debate people that Wade isnt as good as SGA, Durant wasn't the best player on the 2021 Nets, and now Hakeem can apparently QB all time great offenses like Jokic even though he never did.

It is amusing though to conversate this stuff. Thank you. :lol

I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why THE **** does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he almost get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting beat 4 times by the warriors with a 6'7 draymond green @ center in the playoffs means nothing.

He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his dick.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop

[ShawkFactory]

I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why THE **** does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.

Calm down. Jokic vs Embiid is over. Been done.

[SouBeachTalents]

I dont get it. If jokic is so good and has a teammate that turns into a 50/40/90 guy who averages 20+ points every year in the postseason. Why THE **** does he lose every year? Why did a 22-year-old ant man (still wet behind the ears) knock him off in the playoffs on the road? Why did he get swept by the warriors? Why does he have multiple playoff loses by 30+ points? Hakeem didnt have a 20+ ppg scorer who turned into a 50/40/90 guy every post season. If Jokic is so good why does he get out played by embiid H2H when you look at their H2H stats/ H2H record? Do you think Embiid would out play Hakeem if they played multiple times like Jokic and embiid? Do you think that highly of embiid?


All of a sudden beating Jimmy Butler in a Finals makes you some sort of killa. But losing by 45 to the Timberwolves means nothing. Getting swept by devin booker means nothing. Getting blown out 3 times by the warriors back to back to back in the playoffs means nothing. Being 0-2 in game 7's mean nothing.

He will nevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvver crack the top 5. IDGAF what anaytics say. NEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I have eyes..... I remember him choking against ANT...... i remember the warriors beating him like a pinata...... i remember him getting stopped by a over the hill bubble dwight......I REMEMBER..... no matter how much you suck his dick.....ILL REMEMBER! Every......single....playoff flop
And to think that's STILL better than Embiid's playoff resume :(

[StrongLurk]

RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.

The post you just made is why I specially said in my OP that "accolades/resume" do not matter, Jokic is legit beyond that.

1994/1995 are still weak years in the 3-point era. Hakeem can enjoy being the 11th best player of all time, but he's an entire tier below Jokic.

Also you are just pointing out 2 years which is a short peak. Jokic is going on 5 years of peak and could easily have more.

[tontoz]

Mask the Embiid is going to be seething over Jokic for years. Jokic has a ring without another all star and he can't stand it.

He keeps bringing up getting swept by the top seed Suns without his 2nd and 3rd options while Embiid is an ECF virgin in the weaker conference.

:roll:

[tpols]

Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.

[Kblaze8855]

John Starks.

:lol

2/18.

That was Hakeems 2nd option.

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

[Mask the Embiid]

Jamal Murray shot on 40% FG and 31% 3pt in the playoffs last year. His efficiency was horrible.

1995 Clyde put up 20/7/6 on a blistering 120 ORTG in the playoffs.

At what point will you accept reality? If Jokic had that version of Clyde it would be even easier. Guy was a top 10 SG of all time. Jamal Murray is a footnote.

Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same

[StrongLurk]

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.

[tontoz]

Hakeem wasn't a consistent player. When he was fully engaged he was scary but that frequently wasn't the case. He wasn't one of those guys who gave full effort night after night. At times he would settle for jumpers rather than trying to put pressure on the rim, and his jumper was just ok.

[tpols]

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

Cmon man you know damn well John Starks wasn't a star 2nd option on a title team historically.

I was asked who did Hakeem have at shotgun and replied who did his opponent have? It wasn't all that different and that was the point.

[tpols]

Hakeem averaged 28/12/6 against shaq......an all time great....
Hakeem averaged 26 and held Patrick Ewing......an all time great.... to 38% from the field and 18 ppg
meanwhile, jokic gets to go up against "the great" bam adabayo in the finals.

Hakeem all defensives teams 9. Jokic. 0
Rebounding titles hakeem 2. jokic 0


The only reason Jokic has a ring is because of Jamal Murray. You know it. I know it. the world know it. Hakeem has a ring with no help.....you cannot say the same

Jamal Murray is Tyrese Maxey bro. They're literally the same talent. The difference is Yolk maximized and won with his guy and embiid... is a playoff crash out.

It doesn't have to be black vs white. If Jokic was Nigerian and played the exact same way we would still rep him because basketball is basketball and greatness can come in any size, shape or color.

It's just incredibly ironic it took the shape of a tall fat white guy with dumpy athleticism. :lol

[GOBB]

Hakim’s defense is the only reason that game was even played.

Hakeems individual defense literally prevented the Knicks from winning the title in game 6 when he switched onto Starks and blocked a title winning 3 that would have made Starks finals mvp since he’d have had 30/8 that game. And of course Hakeem held Ewing to 6/20 on top of it so he wouldn’t win.

John Starks entire career narrative changed because Hakeem could switch onto an athletic guard at 28 feet keep up and have the most consequential block arguably in NBA history.

it’s the biggest play of Hakeem’s career and would definitely be the biggest of Jokics as well. But to the general public, it doesn’t even exist because iconic defense really doesn’t count. Starks hits that shot and wins New York the title? It might be the most famous shot in history or right there with Jordans shot in 98.

But he didn’t. Hakeem blocks it…and defense doesn’t matter.

not necessarily talking about your opinion, but it’s definitely the opinion of most casual fans.

Plays like that don’t even exist in memory.

I’m not sure most people could even name a single block in history other than LeBron on Iguodala.

It’s like people don’t miss shots because of the defense. It isn’t a balance. People score what they score and what they don’t score is because of them not scoring better…not because the defense did its job.

Oh well. Nothing to be done about it at this point.

And it’s a lot of casual fans casual takes in here. Which is why most are accepting Jokic over Hakeem. Comedy hour.

[Bankaii]

Nah I really think he's the GOAT. I want to see him play with a superstar sidekick though. Every other great player nowadays and even in the past got to play on loaded teams. Imagine if Jokic got to play with prime Penny, Kobe, and Wade like Shaq did instead of just jamal Murray whose a pipsqueak version of those guys. It would be an avalanche for Yolk.
Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:

[Full Court]

You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.

Yes you can. Bird.

[StrongLurk]

Yes you can. Bird.

No, not at all

[RRR3]

RRR3's not lying that you sound like a young casual fan with posts like this :lol

What Hakeem did in '94 & '95, carrying one of the weakest championship rosters ever in '94, beating Malone/Stockton, Barkley/KJ, Robinson/Rodman & Shaq/Penny all on the road in '95, eviscerating Ewing & Robinson h2h, and winning MVP & DPOY absolutely puts him in argument with Jokic if we're talking strictly peaks. Not even LeBron & Jordan are clearly above that.
Yeah seriously, Hakeem won with Otis ****ing Thorpe as his number two. Thorpe was a fine player but hardly a championship number two, and the rest of the roster was really weak as well. Robert Horry was a major option on offense, and he was pretty much a spot up shooter for the rest of his career on title teams.

94 is one of the all time carry jobs, I can admit he had more help in 95 with Drexler though.

[RRR3]

Jokic has already surpassed Hakeem. Jokic is > Bird, so if you want to argue Hakeem > Jokic, then you have to argue Hakeem > Bird.

2025 Jokic's career at this point is basically where Lebron's career was in 2013 (before the playoffs).

No one was arguing Hakeem > Lebron by 2013.
This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.

[StrongLurk]

This is Jokic's 10th season. Hakeem played 18, and was elite for most of them. Even if Jokic is better in your opinion, he'd have to have been WAY better to pass Hakeem while playing so much less.

Stop posting buzzfeed tier bait.

Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM

[RRR3]

Jokic IS WAY BETTER. What are you not understanding? Jokic is number 1 all time is a ton of advanced stats. Literally NUMBER ONE ahead of MJ/Lebron.

Jokic is 29 years old. At 29, MJ/Lebron were already ahead of Hakeem all time. Jokic doesn't need to play more, he's already passed Hakeem :lol

MJ age 21-29: 29.8 PER, 58.9 TS%, .276 WS/48, 10.9 BPM

Lebron age 21-29: 29.2 PER, 59.4 TS%, .268 WS/48, 10.2 BPM

Jokic age 21-29: 29 PER, 64.1 TS%, .266 WS/48, 10.8 BPM
None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:

[StrongLurk]

None of those stats measure defense even half decently, we know Jokic is better than Hakeem on offense already :hammerhead:

Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.

[RRR3]

Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.
Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed

[StrongLurk]

Being good at defense is a lot more important when you play CENTER, StrongBuzzfeed

List your top ten all time so I know what kind of stupid I am dealing with here.

[1987_Lakers]

Hakeem had an amazing peak and is probably the best defensive player since the merger, but tontoz is right that he had some issues with consistency. It seemed like he kinda regressed as a player during the early 90's then came back and played out of his mind from '93-'95. He is a player that gets judged mostly by his peak (which is amazing), while fans ignore that there was a 5 year period where he couldn't get out of the first round, even missing the playoffs in '92.

As far as who had the better peak, I think it's about preference and you could make a great case for both.

I would take Jokic's peak over the peak of guys like Magic, Curry, Kobe, & Bird. Some fans still don't want to accept this yet, but it's the truth.

[GOBB]

Why say “I would take his peak” then end it with it’s the truth? You stay trying to convince people your opinion is a fact. You can’t help yourself. It’s hilarious.

[Chick Stern]

Defense doesn't make up for the gap everywhere else compared to Jokic. Seriously, so many people have Magic Johnson as a top five player of all time. Magic's defense wasn't any better than Jokic, and Magic played on WAY more stacked teams.

Being good at defense is NOT a requirement for being a top 5 player of all time.

Hakeem isn't even a top 10 player of all time so it's hilarious that you are pushing so hard against this.

Let's go ahead and see your top 10 players of all time.
Magic led the league in steals early in his career.
He was as lethal a competitor as anybody you can name, he just did it with a smile. Bird knew that.
He spent 75% of his career in the Finals. Literally NO player has ever done what he did in the Finals his rookie year.
People have him in the top 5 because he is. If not for the HIV he would be in the GOAT conversation.

[Duffy Pratt]

He would need to be with great offensive players to have a great offense. That never happened in the players'primes. But no one is saying that olajuwon is just as good as an overall offensive player. Just that he is a great offensive player along with being one of the greatest defensive players of all time. And yes, defense does matter.

Who are the great offensive players Jokic is playing with? They fit well as a team, but only because Jokic is there. With Jokic playing, their offensive rating is the best in the league. When Jokic sits, there offensively rating is the worst in the league.

[dankok8]

I find Jokic's and Hakeem's careers somewhat similar in that they spent huge chunks of their prime stuck with a shit sandwich in terms of help. Jokic actually probably has better talent on paper but Murray's injuries in 2021 and 2022 took the Nuggets straight out of contention. Currently in this moment, I'd have Hakeem above Jokic because his prime has been much longer but assuming Jokic has another few prime years they'll be neck and neck on my all time list. In other words, Jokic will enter that tier.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Who are the great offensive players Jokic is playing with? They fit well as a team, but only because Jokic is there. With Jokic playing, their offensive rating is the best in the league. When Jokic sits, there offensively rating is the worst in the league.
I didn't say Jokic played with great offensive players so what is this about? Everyone concedes that Jokic is better offensively. Vs olajuwon the argument is more focused on the important fact that along with being a great offensive player olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jokic is not that.

[ArbitraryWater]

Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.

cause they dont have a GOAT tier peak thats why :lol

[warriorfan]

Yeah seriously, Hakeem won with Otis ****ing Thorpe as his number two. Thorpe was a fine player but hardly a championship number two, and the rest of the roster was really weak as well. Robert Horry was a major option on offense, and he was pretty much a spot up shooter for the rest of his career on title teams.

94 is one of the all time carry jobs, I can admit he had more help in 95 with Drexler though.

Havnt you been spamming for years about how the 90’s had terrible competition and today’s players are so much better?




Weird.

[tpols]

Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:

No he hasn't.

Jamal Murray is the only great player he's ever played with. And he's just an average All Star talent. Kobe, Wade and Penny were superstars. Especially Kobe and Wade.

Most other all time great got to play with with true superstar at one point or another. Even Hakeem got to play with Clyde Drexler who balled out and is one of the GOAT shooting guards.

[tpols]

I didn't say Jokic played with great offensive players so what is this about? Everyone concedes that Jokic is better offensively. Vs olajuwon the argument is more focused on the important fact that along with being a great offensive player olajuwon was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jokic is not that.

You definitely weren't conceding that yesterday.

And if it was as simple as defense + offense = players worth, Gary Payton would be considered > Magic Johnson. But that doesn't add up. Offensive brilliance can be more individual based. Defense is usually more of a team and coach thing.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You definitely weren't conceding that yesterday.

And if it was as simple as defense + offense = players worth, Gary Payton would be considered > Magic Johnson. But that doesn't add up. Offensive brilliance can be more individual based. Defense is usually more of a team and coach thing.
Show where I said olajuwon was the better scorer. Because I can show you trying to act like passing is just as important as the entire category of defense. Your lies and stupidity are not an actual point.

[highwhey]

overrated

[tpols]

Show where I said olajuwon was the better scorer. Because I can show you trying to act like passing is just as important as the entire category of defense. Your lies and stupidity are not an actual point.

It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.

[FKAri]

He's top 20. I'll give you that. Anything higher will need more time to marinate.

[StrongLurk]

It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.

You and I disagree on some things but we agree on Jokic which is great to see.

So many people in this thread are holding Jokic to a higher standard than other all time greats.

Jokic is on an absurd 5 year peak. He got unlucky considering his best teammates were injured in the playoffs during the first two years of his peak.

[tpols]

You and I disagree on some things but we agree on Jokic which is great to see.

So many people in this thread are holding Jokic to a higher standard than other all time greats.

Jokic is on an absurd 5 year peak. He got unlucky considering his best teammates were injured in the playoffs during the first two years of his peak.

Thank you bro. Its just like anything else. Magics passing = Mutumbos defense. Or Hakeems. Scoring, passing, rebounding, and defense. If you're super elite at any of them the impact is felt. Dennis Rodman was almost a superstar on rebounding alone.

[Hey Yo]

Why would Magic and Bird not be on this list lol. Or Curry.

Cause Magic didn't play defense

[tpols]

Cause Magic didn't play defense

And he won 5 rings doing that. And was still leading teams to the Finals even when he had AIDs and no Kareem.

True offensive brilliance is something else. The ball is in the offense hands. Magic could let you run a layup line, laugh and do the same thing 0n the other end but better. And then win.

[Hey Yo]

Five years of peak MJ/Lebron play is me being a "prisoner of the moment"? :biggums:

Jokic is literally a BETTER/BIGGER version of Larry Bird.

Magic -> Lebron
Bird -> Jokic


This is the evolution of two players widely considered top 10 all time, so of course Lebron/Jokic will rank higher.
:oldlol: ... no

[Hey Yo]

And he won 5 rings doing that. And was still leading teams to the Finals even when he had AIDs and no Kareem.

True offensive brilliance is something else. The ball is in the offense hands. Magic could let you run a layup line, laugh and do the same thing 0n the other end but better. And then win.
He saw his contending days were done and faked AIDS. He thought it was better to quit than fade away gracefully.

[tpols]

He saw his contending days were done and faked AIDS. He thought it was better to quit than fade away gracefully.

:biggums:

I'm a conspiracy guy but I think you took it too far bro. He got HIV from all those wild LA Hollywood orgy parties in the 80s. It was basically a super STD.

And he probably had it for a while. Symptoms for that can show up 5 years later so Magic was literally balling out winning rings in the late 80s with AIDs. That's actually gangster. :lol

[GOBB]

:biggums:

I'm a conspiracy guy but I think you took it too far bro. He got HIV from all those wild LA Hollywood orgy parties in the 80s. It was basically a super STD.

And he probably had it for a while. Symptoms for that can show up 5 years later so Magic was literally balling out winning rings in the late 80s with AIDs. That's actually gangster. :lol

Yeah sleeping with other men…

[Chick Stern]

Cause Magic didn't play defense

Of course he did

[tpols]

Yeah sleeping with other men…

He was beating them up on and off the court I guess.

[Hey Yo]

Magic led the league in steals early in his career.
He was as lethal a competitor as anybody you can name, he just did it with a smile. Bird knew that.
He spent 75% of his career in the Finals. Literally NO player has ever done what he did in the Finals his rookie year.
People have him in the top 5 because he is. If not for the HIV he would be in the GOAT conversation.

Leading in steals doesn't make one a good defender. A lot of it is being in the right place on bad passes. Or if the statistician gives you credit for the steal once it was originally tapped away by a teammate.

[ArbitraryWater]

:oldlol: ... no

Hes just saying that Magic led to leBron, an improved version.

[GOBB]

He was beating them up on and off the court I guess.

Actually I take that back. That was a weak cheap shot by me. No need to slander Magic name. 4th best player on NBA history in my book.

[sdot_thadon]

Leading in steals doesn't make one a good defender. A lot of it is being in the right place on bad passes. Or if the statistician gives you credit for the steal once it was originally tapped away by a teammate.

I think if you have the vision to make great passes you probably also have the vision to anticipate the passes others make too. Might not be a 100% thing but alot of great passers also are decent at getting into passing lanes too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

It absolutely can be. Passing on the level of Magic or Jokic has absolutely tremendous impact on basketball games. I'm actually astonished that you don't realize that.And here we have you acting like one aspect of offense is just as inorganic as olajuwon being one of the greatest defenders of all time. Good talk.

[Mask the Embiid]

Is 23 year old Anthony Edwards, Peak Jokic's kryptonite? Usually a player runs into their kryptonite in their early 20s. Like Jordan with the Pistons/celtics, Kobe with the Jazz, and Lebron with the Celtics/Pistons. Usually, top all-time players kryptonite's are veteran teams who just have much more experience than them. Is this the 1st time where its in reverse? Where the "top 4 player ever" get his ass routinely kicked by the 22 or 23 year old still wet behind the ears breath smelling like Similac kid?

[Axe]

Jokic has had plenty of help lmao. Murray has series better than Penny has ever had (tempted to say Kobe too because of efficiency).

The championship nuggets had 6 guys average double figures. Murray outscored Jokic in half the series they played while averaging 47/40/93 shooting splits:oldlol:
Agreed. But it shows how he can elevate them too tho it doesn't happen always.

The narcissistic sore loser below you is a deepthroating homosexual btw.

[SouBeachTalents]

Is 23 year old Anthony Edwards, Peak Jokic's kryptonite? Usually a player runs into their kryptonite in their early 20s. Like Jordan with the Pistons/celtics, Kobe with the Jazz, and Lebron with the Celtics/Pistons. Usually top all time players kryptonite's are veterans who just have much more experience than them. Is this the 1st time where its in reverse? Where the "top 4 player ever" get his ass routinely kicked by the 22 or 23 year old still wet behind the ears breath smelling like Similac?
Usually a player also makes it past the 2nd round by the time they're 30.

[Mask the Embiid]

Usually a player also makes it past the 2nd round by the time they're 30.

https://athlonsports.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MjA4NDgyNzM3NjU5NTg1ODQz/joel-embiid-gold-medal.jpg

They dont give those out in the 2nd round little fella




stay mad....

[Mask the Embiid]

Look at your king without a 50/40/90 sidekick who scores 32 points....This is your king!? THIS IS YOUR KING!???

23 year old Temu Tmac whipping his ass. Dont you ever!!!!!!!!!! make a thread like this again

[SouBeachTalents]

https://athlonsports.com/.image/ar_4:3%2Cc_fill%2Ccs_srgb%2Cfl_progressive%2Cq_aut o:good%2Cw_1200/MjA4NDgyNzM3NjU5NTg1ODQz/joel-embiid-gold-medal.jpg

They dont give those out in the 2nd round little fella




stay mad....
Guy who wasn't even born in the US joins the most stacked Olympic team, then proceeds to not make a single field goal in the Gold medal game

https://c.tenor.com/PLL_Hgq-ezsAAAAd/tenor.gif

[stalkerforlife]

Get Hakeem out of there bro. The others are fine.

Jokic has had the least amount of help by quite a bit out of these players, and it's magnified even more by him playing the the modern era where teams have a lot more flexibility to improve their rosters.

Hakeem had less help than Jokic on his back to back title run and he ran through young Shaq and Ewing in the finals.

Hakeem's Rockets and Kobe's Lakers had the least amount of help for any b2b champions in league history.

[StrongLurk]

Hakeem had less help than Jokic on his back to back title run and he ran through young Shaq and Ewing in the finals.

Hakeem's Rockets and Kobe's Lakers had the least amount of help for any b2b champions in league history.

:roll:

[SouBeachTalents]

:roll:
Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.

[StrongLurk]

Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.

Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.

I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.

Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.

Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...

[SouBeachTalents]

Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.

I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.

Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.

Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...
You are in the extreme minority if you genuinely don't believe Hakeem's peak is on par with Jokic's. Guy was averaging 30 ppg while playing DPOY caliber defense and destroying his contemporaries h2h in Ewing & Robinson. I frankly find it strange how much you downplay it.

[ShawkFactory]

Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.

Yea this has always been a weird one to me. Kobe having less help beating the Magic in 09 than Magic did beating the Celtics in 87 doesn't really mean anything.

[tpols]

Which part of that is funny? The Kobe claim is disingenuous because while historically that's true, he still had at worst the 2nd best supporting cast in the league when he was winning titles at the time. But Hakeem? 1994 just might be the weakest championship supporting cast ever, it's at worst top 3, and sure, past prime Drexler was still All-NBA caliber, but that would also be at the lower end of championship casts ever. Jokic's team with Murray putting up damn near superstar level production was certainly stronger.

Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.

[stalkerforlife]

Well for one, I was referring to all the other players besides Hakeem in the original post, in which case Jokic definitely had less help.

I am laughing at even mentioning Hakeem/Kobe's peak in comparison to Jokic. It's just a conversation not worth having, Kobe/Hakeem's supporting casts are irrelevant.

Remember, Jokic has YET to have any all-nba or all-nba defensive teammates. NONE.

Jamal Murray has had a few fantastic playoff runs, but he still hasn't made an all-star team in the regular season at least...

I'm referring to back to back champions.

Out of all the repeat champions in league history, Hakeem had the least amount of help for any b2b champion. Kobe is 2nd behind Hakeem regarding the strength of supporting cast for b2b champions.

[StrongLurk]

You are in the extreme minority if you genuinely don't believe Hakeem's peak is on par with Jokic's. Guy was averaging 30 ppg while playing DPOY caliber defense and destroying his contemporaries h2h in Ewing & Robinson. I frankly find it strange how much you downplay it.

Ewing and Robinson would get destroyed by Jokic too. Again, whatever defensive advantage Hakeem has doesnt make up for the big gap in offense compared to Jokic.

Hakeem had a great peak, I just wouldn't put it top 5 all time. Jokic to me will easily have a "longer" peak than Hakeem's which matters a lot to me (just like Lebron's "peak" actually extends a long time).

[stalkerforlife]

Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.

Murray led them in scoring in WCF and put up 32, 6, and 5 on 50, 40, 90 shooting.

[SouBeachTalents]

Taking Jamal Murray no question over Clyde Drexler is a wild ass take. Drexler had one of his best playoff runs in 1995 playoffs.
I will never understand the reverence you have for that playoff run, I can't even chalk it up to agenda. Drexler had a really good first round where he balled out in all their wins in that series. After that, he averaged 19/7/5 on 55%TS the rest of the playoffs.

Why you're under the impression this was some notable playoff run, and not a standard 2nd option performance, I for sure don't know. But yes, talking specifically how they performed in the playoff runs in question, not how they are as overall players, Murray performed better than Drexler did. I really don't see how you could dispute that.

[tpols]

Murray led them in scoring in WCF and put up 32, 6, and 5 on 50, 40, 90 shooting.

Would he do that in the 90s much slower paced and defense oriented games? And without Jokics GOAT passing which boosts his game?

Clyde is one of the GOAT SGs and he was still prime in 1995. I can't even imagine what a talent like he was would do in today's spaced out era with way fewer great rim protectors. He was considered a slasher athlete on par with MJ.

I never thought I'd see the day Jamal Murray is considered hands down better than Clyde Drexler. This is a funny place.

[tpols]

I will never understand the reverence you have for that playoff run, I can't even chalk it up to agenda. Drexler had a really good first round where he balled out in all their wins in that series. After that, he averaged 19/7/5 on 55%TS the rest of the playoffs.

Why you're under the impression this was some notable playoff run, and not a standard 2nd option performance, I for sure don't know. But yes, talking specifically how they performed in the playoff runs in question, not how they are as overall players, Murray performed better than Drexler did. I really don't see how you could dispute that.

It's silly to transpose statlines from one team and one era to another exactly. It's very commonly accepted that it's easier to get stats today than slugfest 90s so you'd have to adjust for that and the fact that Jokic is a much better passer and playmaker than Hakeem which helps Murray's offensive game. You're not even considering the tremendous context differences at all.

[SouBeachTalents]

Ewing and Robinson would get destroyed by Jokic too. Again, whatever defensive advantage Hakeem has doesnt make up for the big gap in offense compared to Jokic.

Hakeem had a great peak, I just wouldn't put it top 5 all time. Jokic to me will easily have a "longer" peak than Hakeem's which matters a lot to me (just like Lebron's "peak" actually extends a long time).
You think Jokic is coming remotely close to limiting Robinson to 24 ppg on 45%, or Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%?

[StrongLurk]

You think Jokic is coming remotely close to limiting Robinson to 24 ppg on 45%, or Ewing to 19 ppg on 36%?

Not quite as good as Hakeem would obviously, but Robinson and Ewing would get smoked even more on offense by Jokic.

Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird, and most people consider Bird already better than Hakeem..sooo...do the math buddy.

2023 Jokic: 31.2 PER, 63.1 TS%, .305 WS/48, 12.8 BPM

1994 Hakeem: 27.7 PER, 56.8 TS%, .208 WS/48, 8.5 BPM

Whatever advantage Hakeem has on defense isn't enough to make up for the gap above. Jokic is literally number 1 all time in a ton of advanced stats, even ahead of MJ/Lebron. He's simply better than Hakeem.

[ShawkFactory]

Not quite as good as Hakeem would obviously, but Robinson and Ewing would get smoked even more on offense by Jokic.

Jokic is literally a better version of Larry Bird, and most people consider Bird already better than Hakeem..sooo...do the math buddy.

2023 Jokic: 31.2 PER, 63.1 TS%, .305 WS/48, 12.8 BPM

1994 Hakeem: 27.7 PER, 56.8 TS%, .208 WS/48, 8.5 BPM

Whatever advantage Hakeem has on defense isn't enough to make up for the gap above. Jokic is literally number 1 all time in a ton of advanced stats, even ahead of MJ/Lebron. He's simply better than Hakeem.

I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.

[tpols]

I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.

Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.

[StrongLurk]

I don't think you know what literally means. Bird is one of the greatest shooters and overall shot-makers who has ever done it. Jokic is not on that level in this area at all.

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????

Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.

Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.

Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.

Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.

Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.

[StrongLurk]

Bird 84-88: 26.1 PER, 58.8 TS%, .237 WS/48, 8.7 BPM

Jokic 21-25: 31.8 PER, 66.3 TS%, .304 WS/48, 13.1 BPM

STOP SLEEPING ON JOKIC.

WTF is wrong with people. We are seeing a GOAT player in real time. It's like trying to downplay Lebron 10 years into his career. It's ridiculous.

[ShawkFactory]

Eh... Jokic is a GOAT big man shooter and scorer too. Scoring wise Bird wasn't actually nearly as efficient in the playoffs as Jokic even if you adjust for era efficiency and pace and everything. To say Bird is on another level as a scorer doesn't really add up.

I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.

[ShawkFactory]

ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME????

Jokic is also one of the greatest shooters and overall shotmakers. You CLEARLY have never seen Jokic's shooting splits and shooting charts over the last few years. Have you forgotten all those circus three point bombs Jokic was dropping on AD/Lebron's heads in the playoffs? Literally insane and Jokic also has a similar high-release/shotput style like Bird.

Jokic is literally efficient scoring at all levels (rim, post, wings/elbows, long mid range, threes, free throws). Claiming Jokic can't shoot is like claiming Dirk can't shoot.

Shawk you are usually on point but your post is outstandingly ignorant. Jokic is way ahead of Bird in TS% and EFG%.

Cure yourself of ignorance and go look at Jokic's shooting splits.

Last 5 years right here: 3-10ft (60.8%), 10-16ft (50.7%), 16ft-3pt (49.2%), 3P (37.9%). Jokic is literally good everywhere.

Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.

Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.

I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic HEAVILY leverages the passing, spacing and ability to bully people inside when it comes to the shooting though. He has wonderful shot selection and a lot of the jumpers he takes are calculated based on what the defense is doing, which is primarily aimed at keeping him out of the paint.

Bird was often a complete avalanche scorer as a pure jump shooter despite efforts to prevent him from getting shots off. Jokic isn't defended the same way.

I'm not even saying Bird > Jokic. Just that there are definitely differences in the way they scored.

If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.

Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.

[3ba11]

.
Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles and MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) universally-recognized (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4) as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated max defensive attention for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

[Phoenix]

MJ became goat by achieving extended demonstrations of goat-caliber such as:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles and MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) universally-recognized (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4) as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated max defensive attention for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", and "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

My favorite pizza toppings are pepperoni and pineapple.

[3ba11]

I'm a passive-aggressive beta that wastes time playing dumb games on internet forums instead of furthering conversation and the human mind.. In short, I'm a waste of space :)



Got it.

Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ was, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), and a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

[StrongLurk]

.
Extended demonstrations of goat-caliber are required to become GOAT, which is how MJ became the first and last consensus GOAT:


1) goat modern dynasty
2) multiple 3-peats
3) 72 wins + title
4) goat frequency of titles and MVP's
5) goat MVP-caliber - i.e. MJ's MVP's had everything, while Lebron's MVP's lack titles, scoring title or DPOY
6) universally-recognized (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1TOk40Kq-O4) as the goat competitor
7) carried the "star category" of scoring, thereby needing less star help and allowing more room to sign defenders - i.e. by carrying the scoring load in every season, series and Finals, MJ dominated max defensive attention for his entire career, which is a caliber of dominance that no one else came anywhere near.


The mainstream media is a few hundred people, while Lebron's hardcore fans are a small percentage and no different than Kobe's - so aside from this small group of people, Lebron was never universally-recognized as GOAT like MJ is, specifically because his caliber was never goat caliber, as explained above, while also having bad labels like "colluder", "choker", "flopper" and losing reputation, i.e. he has losing records with every type of good teams, such as preseason favorites (3-4), all-star teammates (4-7), Finals teams (4-6), and 1 or 2 seeds (4-5), while also having a record 3 straight losses as the favorite from 09-11'.

Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.

[Phoenix]

I'm a sad little basement-dwelling dweeb who quoted a post exclusively about Hakeem and Jokic, used it as a platform to go on an irrelevant pro-MJ/anti Lebron tirade, then turned in a passive aggressive bitch when someone responds to me with a post equally as pointless as mine was to the person I initially responded to. In short, my mother should have swallowed on my night of conception :)




Duly noted.

[Phoenix]

Stick to the OP buddy.

We don't care about "resumes" or accolades at this point. Jokic is above all of that. Eye test, skillset, impact shows Jokic in the GOAT category.

Why are you even bothering to respond seriously to that? You were talking about Hakeem and Jokic and he hijacks it with a MJ copy/paste. The only thing he warrants is having his bullshit hijacked in response if not ignored.

[tpols]

I didn't say as a total scorer. Just as a shooter.

I mean you said shooter shot maker but that's literally how Jokic scores. That and in the post which is exactly what Bird did too. Jokic just does it better.

[ShawkFactory]

If Bird was 7 feet, 280 pounds, then his play style would look just like Jokic's. The size difference accounts for the small differences is playstyle, but the actual skill set between the two is extremely similar, even their jump shooting form.

Since the 3-point line inception, Bird was the original best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player. Then Lebron came and took that title, albeit in a very different way. However Jokic is closer to Bird 2.0, and Jokic is now arguably the best "scorer/passer/rebounder" combo player ever at his peak.

I suppose that's fair. But at the same time, size matters and it DOES change how you play.

And if it matters at all, Bird was more of a motherfvcker than Jokic I think. If we can cross numbers by era then we can do the same with mentalities. Not to say that Jokic is soft because he isn't but you couldn't phase Bird and I can see Jokic getting a little pissy at times and it affects his game a little bit.

[Micku]

I agree honestly in terms of peaks or prime stretch. He is up there. I think the only that holds him back from being the contention of the GOAT is his defense. I think he is the best offensive floor raiser I ever seen.

I don't think he has the best offensive ceiling per say, but he is damn good. Best offensive player I seen.

[ImKobe]

So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.

[Axe]

So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.
Is ad better than joker tho?

[ImKobe]

Is ad better than joker tho?

No but it has nothing to do with this thread.

[StrongLurk]

So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.

Giannis is insanely dominant, sort of a modern day Shaq (not exactly Shaq obviously, but Giannis fills the most physically dominant big man role). But he isn't quite up to Jokic.

Regular Season Jokic 21-25: 31.8 PER, 66.3 TS%, .304 WS/48, 13.1 BPM

Regular Season Giannis 21-25: 30 PER, 62.8 TS%, .241 WS/48, 9.3 BPM

Playoff Jokic 21-25 (47 games): 30.7 PER, 62.2 TS%, .259 WS/48, 11.9 BPM

Playoff Giannis 20-23 (45 games): 27.5 PER, 58.2 TS%, .200 WS/48, 9.8 BPM

Jokic is better across the board. Giannis IS an all time great though, not exactly sure where I would rank him. Top 20 all time easily. My only small issue with Giannis is he hasn't quite shined in the playoffs outside of 2021 (which also had a lot of injury luck). His 2021 finals WAS one of the best performances of all time. Giannis also has barely played in the playoffs recently (only 3 games in 2023, none in 2024) due to injury, so he's taken a backseat to Jokic.

[Phoenix]

So we're putting Giannis top 10 all-time as well then? He's barely behind Jokic in most of these seasons and has averaged 30/12/6 63%TS since 2018. Jokic clearly has ATG impact but it's hard to say he's better than most of the other greats just because stats in today's NBA when we got 3 other guys (Giannis, SGA and Luka when healthy) who are producing near that level as well.

Jokic isn't top 10 all-time as far as rankings go yet, so no. Both have been playing long enough and achieved enough to be top 20 though.

I feel like its become convoluted enough now that it's better to do tiers. There's like 15 guys who could be legit 'top 10' players, and also 15 guys who could be 'top 10-20'. You're gonna end up with some people ranking someone like Steph outside the top 10, or Dirk outside the top 20 when they each have cases to be in those respective classes. It's getting harder to remove people. How long before someone like Duncan is pushed out in favor of Jokic? Are Magic and Bird locked into the top 10 for all eternity? Does Oscar's legacy as being this top 12ish level player fade more because Jokic is now doing a triple double and will probably do it multiple times over the next 5 years( and of course, Westbrook did it several time prior but he's not viewed as a GOAT level player)? Will Kobe end up dropping from bubble top 10 to like 15th in the next decade? What about Hakeem? In 40 years it will be 100 years since Bill Russell won 11 rings Will it just be seen as a relic of a bygone era ( I think that's already happening) that would be impossible to replicate so people just stop c assigning it much value?

[StrongLurk]

Jokic isn't top 10 all-time as far as rankings go yet, so no. Both have been playing long enough and achieved enough to be top 20 though.

I feel like its become convoluted enough now that it's better to do tiers. There's like 15 guys who could be legit 'top 10' players, and also 15 guys who could be 'top 10-20'. You're gonna end up with some people ranking someone like Steph outside the top 10, or Dirk outside the top 20 when they each have cases to be in those respective classes. It's getting harder to remove people. How long before someone like Duncan is pushed out in favor of Jokic? Are Magic and Bird locked into the top 10 for all eternity? Does Oscar's legacy as being this top 12ish level player fade more because Jokic is now doing a triple double and will probably do it multiple times over the next 5 years( and of course, Westbrook did it several time prior but he's not viewed as a GOAT level player)? Will Kobe end up dropping from bubble top 10 to like 15th in the next decade? What about Hakeem? In 40 years it will be 100 years since Bill Russell won 11 rings Will it just be seen as a relic of a bygone era ( I think that's already happening) that would be impossible to replicate so people just stop c assigning it much value?

The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.

[Phoenix]

The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.

I tend to think there's been 4 different versions of the NBA, and while there are of course greats that transcend eras, so many things in terms of accomplishments and stats are circumstantial that it's really tough to compare the more time goes on. Its much better to rank the relative dominance of someone against their peers than someone playing 50 years ago.

As far as Jokic goes, it's much easier in terms of both physical, skill and mental attributes to say he's a modern day Bird more than any of the other players in recent memory who wore that moniker( like Dirk and Luka even though neither played anything like him). But it does give us a good proxy to drop Bird in this era or Jokic in the 80's and extrapolate how good they'd be. My main thing is, will Jokic even be allowed to play like that in the 80s or forced to play like the centers back then. He may have been prime Sabonis before he got to the NBA.

[SouBeachTalents]

The best way to rank in my opinion is pre-3 point line and post-3 point line. Although you could argue 2021 is a start of it's own era too.

So we basically got 1949-1979 as an "era", 1980-2020 as an "era", and now 2021-onwards as a third era.

Would make ranking players much easier except for maybe an odd case like Kareem who played in both of the first two eras.
We're really lumping in the pre shot clock era with the 60's & 70's, or the late 90's/early 00's with the late 2010's. That's no good either :lol The league was radically different during those timeframes.

The best you can do is determine who was the best during their era, the league simply changes too frequently to try to make any reasonable comparison between players decades apart.

[Phoenix]

"My main thing is, will Jokic even be allowed to play like that in the 80s or forced to play like the centers back then. He may have been prime Sabonis before he got to the NBA. "

Thinking more on that statement I made above, it's not even a question of whether Jokic would be allowed to play in the 80s or 90s like he does now, because he wouldn't have developed the same skillset or at least to the same degree, especially his shooting range attempts. If you were taking 4.5 threes in the 90s like what Jokic is doing now, you were either Reggie, Mark Price or Glen Rice. He'd be great at passing because guys like Vlade and Sabonis were great big man passers, but not to the degree where they're in essence the teams point-center like Jokic is dropping 10 dimes a night. We should be arguing where he ranks as a point guard as much as where he does a center, because the lines are blurred with him.

Ultimately, these all-time greats( Jokic included) will be great in any era and develop whatever they need to. David Robinson would probably be something like Giannis today if he came out in 2015, because by then we had moved beyond the logic that 7 footers needed to park their asses in the post and stay there( and the Admiral even in the 90s was more a face-up scorer at the elbow than he was mixing it up in the post).

[Real Men Wear Green]

Am I the only one that doesn't think the threes are that important to Jokic's individual greatness? It's a nice weapon to have but if he stayed in the paint he would still be a major scoring threat, great passer and great rebounder.

[StrongLurk]

We're really lumping in the pre shot clock era with the 60's & 70's, or the late 90's/early 00's with the late 2010's. That's no good either :lol The league was radically different during those timeframes.

The best you can do is determine who was the best during their era, the league simply changes too frequently to try to make any reasonable comparison between players decades apart.

Okay well Jokic is about to be the best player for a 5th year in a row. Who else has done that besides MJ, Lebron, and maybe Kareem? I guess Mikan maybe?

[Phoenix]

Am I the only one that doesn't think the threes are that important to Jokic's individual greatness? It's a nice weapon to have but if he stayed in the paint he would still be a major scoring threat, great passer and great rebounder.

He 'only' takes 4.5 a game so no, it's not. It's just another weapon in his arsenal to keep the defense honest, but he's clearly BITW/GOAT level without it. It's more like 'Jesus, this dude was already an MVP and now he's shooting 45% on 3's too?'

[BarberSchool]

He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.

[Thenameless]

You can't make an argument for anyone besides Kareem/MJ/Lebron to be ahead of peak Jokic. This isn't a short peak either, we are on 5 years of absurd dominance. Jokic simply has had WAY less help than Kareem/MJ/Lebron, which isn't debatable.

I'd take Wilt Chamberlain over Joker, but yeah, he's easily among the best ever already.

[Overdrive]

He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.

What will make him better when he's done?

[Phoenix]

He’s not tho.

Somewhere in the top 20 currently.

Will be top 12-15 when done.

OP isn't talking about rankings, all that is legacy and based on circumstantial stats and achievements. This is simply about how 'good' Jokic is as far as what he does on the court. And from what I've seen here, the main talking point is that Jokic is so transcendent offensively that it puts him ahead of players who may be better 'two-way' players ( like Hakeem, as mentioned in the thread earlier). I don't know where I land on that, but there's no question that we are watching a historically significant player right now.

[John8204]

Okay well Jokic is about to be the best player for a 5th year in a row. Who else has done that besides MJ, Lebron, and maybe Kareem? I guess Mikan maybe?

I don't think Kareem ever had 5 years in a row of greatness...Mikan, Wilt, Dr. J, Bird, MJ, and Lebron

[ShawkFactory]

Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.

Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.

Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.

[RRR3]

Relegating this one because I just heard a Bird argument earlier.

Dude played like Jokic as a slow passer a lot of times but got to his spots went off offensively like a “fvck you” version of Dirk at times as well.

Jokic can score efficiently in the paint because he’s enormous and make jumpers when people sag but Bird would run the court and pull up on people and hit everything when he got that feeling. He wasn’t better or worse than Jokic but definitely different.
Jokic is definitely better on offense. If you're arguing for Bird you gotta use the defensive side of the ball. I don't even like Jokic so I'm not being biased, he just is a much more reliable playoff scorer than Bird.

[ShawkFactory]

I’m not talking about who’s better. I’m just saying play style.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.

Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.

Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills, Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Jokic 61/10/10 with 2 steals on elite efficiency.

Seriously it's lame how people are still "waiting" to crown this guy. He is probably having the best regular season in the 3-point ERA right now.

Idk, people can wait all they want, Jokic is already top 4-5 all time for me. I don't care about "greatness/resume/narratives". Just pure impact/basketball ability/skills, Jokic is literally up there with MJ, Lebron, and Kareem.
Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?

[StrongLurk]

Then why is he above Chamberlain? And is it at all important that a player is a great defender?

I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.

Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.

I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.

And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.

[tpols]

Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?

He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.

It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.

[StrongLurk]

Don't literally all the stats show Denver is signicantly better on defense with jokic on the court?

He's not a highlight defense guy, but his impact there is shown to be positive. Like... as a fact. Just because he's white and has dumpy athleticism doesn't mean he doesn't understand angles, anticipate correctly, or give good effort in general on D.

It's a wierd meme people push. Magic was much worse on defense than Jokic and that would be highlighted today even more with all the quick guards and outside shooting.

Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.

All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.

[tpols]

Exactly, the only thing Jokic is actually not good at on defense is rim-protection. Obviously that is important, but he knows his limits and is good at positioning himself smartly on defense and limiting fouls instead of having dumb contests at the rim that he can't stop.

All players have SOME weakness to their game. Jokic is just groundbreaking everywhere else in basketball except for rim protection, so who cares. MJ couldn't shoot threes, Kareem couldn't either nor could he playmake like a PG, Lebron has limitations to his game too AND the 2011 finals debacle.

A huge reason Jokic doesn't try to block shots is to avoid foul trouble in this WWE league.

It's somehow more logical for him to let them go just so he can slice and dice them on the other end. That's a ref and flop thing though. In a perfect competitive environment his defense would be even better because he wouldn't have to hold back.

[Real Men Wear Green]

I guess I'm okay with throwing Wilt in the top 5 with Jokic.

Idk though, it's hard for me to take that era too seriously given the total lack of footage and completely different rules/NBA setup.

I give Kareem benefit of the doubt because he actually played through the entire 80's decade and was great even as an old/out of prime player.

And no, an individual player does not have to be a "great" defender if the rest of the players abilities are game-breaking. Jokic's level on defense is adequate enough, he's at least a league leader in steals and deflections, and has high BBIQ.A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?

[StrongLurk]

A player doesn't"have" to be anything. The question is whether or not defense is important. Is it?

I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:

[Real Men Wear Green]

I already gave you my answer :confusedshrug:
Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?

[StrongLurk]

Does it advance the argument for another player if he's a great defender?

Obviously

[Real Men Wear Green]

Obviously
So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?

[StrongLurk]

So going back to olajuwon, he has a few 27 ppg seasons. Jokic is better offensively, but it's that gap enough to make up for Olajuwon being one of the fastest defenders of all time, whereas Jokic as a defender is about average, maybe a little above that but definitely not one of the greatest ever?

Yes.

Jokic this year is top 3 (per game) in points, rebounds, assists, steals, deflections, all while having the highest TS% in the league by a long margin for any volume scorers AND he is has the second best assist/TO ratio for high volume passers.

Jokic's peak is going on five years as the best player in the league.

I mean, do you rank Magic above Hakeem? If yes, then Jokic is ahead too.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.

[SouBeachTalents]

Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.
You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year.

[Real Men Wear Green]

You're using team accomplishments to determine who the better individual player is, literally the most flawed metric NBA fans use, esp if we're talking strictly peak play. Kareem was also definitely the Lakers best player that first year they won together, and could be argued for 1 or 2 other titles as well.

Magic would have 1 title at best like Jokic with this Denver team, and even then I'm not convinced he'd be able to duplicate what Jokic did against Phoenix that year. You don't build a team around magic the same way you do around Jokic. They might not even have one ring because they'd have a gasping hole at center. That isn't relevant. The Chamonix absolutely are relevant because they're the ultimate validation of a player's greatness. It doesn't mean that a player without them is not but if you take away championships then why would Kobe be regarded as the greatest wing of his era? What puts Curry over Lillaird? We're judging a resume. It matters.

[StrongLurk]

Magic won 5 championships. Piling up trophies like that puts him at a higher level. To be fair I acknowledge he wasn't a great defender either but 5 championships as best player is the definition of dominance.

My whole thread isn't about "resumes".

Also did you just say Magic won 5 rings as the best player on his team? What the **** are you smoking???

Honestly I'm done responding to you, your takes in this thread are atrocious.

[Real Men Wear Green]

Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.

[hold this L]

The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.

[ImKobe]

Since when did GOAT discussions ignore rings? Take your ball and go home if you're so sensitive you apparently can't deal with a debate.

Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.

[GOBB]

Omg Jokic 60pt triple double. I change my mind he’s the best player ever! And he won’t stop.

[hold this L]

Yeah we should just ignore rings and have Wilt as the GOAT again because he dominated the RS more than anyone else in league history, and he was an elite defender. Jokic is in a weird spot where he's ATG offensively but how many ATG centers are average on the defensive end? And before someone tries to argue stats with me, Denver is bottom 10 on defense this year and they're better on D in the non-Jokic minutes.

Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol

[StrongLurk]

The guy is barely top 20, lay off the drugs. He's beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, which is pretty pathetic for a 30 year old ATG.

:roll:

You guys keep trying to go the conventional "resume" route of ring counting which is lame. Remember, MJ was crowned GOAT with just one ring.

This thread is not a "GOAT" conversation, which is much more than just on court impact. I am referring to on-court impact. Jokic is at least top 5 all time, I mean the guy is literally number 1 ALL TIME in a ton of advanced stats, literally ahead of MJ.

No one has lead the ENTIRE league in so many advanced stats for almost FIVE years now and not automatically been considered a top 10 player of all time. We don't need on paper resumes to determine this. The league is LUCKY the Jokic's best teammates were literally injured and unavailable in the 2021 and 2022 playoffs.

[StrongLurk]

Is he even average? Some random bum from the bench casually has season-careers #s on him on the regular. Wouldn't be surprised if Post drops 20-25 tonight because Jokic is on the other side. :lol

Wow, a Curry stan trying to slam another player's defense? You guys are retarded.

[GOBB]

Oscar Robertson had an amazing stretch from a statistical standpoint. I wonder if social media existed then what his place in fans hearts would be.

[StrongLurk]

Oscar Robertson had an amazing stretch from a statistical standpoint. I wonder if social media existed then what his place in fans hearts would be.

Oh I just realized Gobb is Embiid stan :roll:

That's just sad.

Jokic has put up historic performances week after week for 5 years now that everyone has become numb to it.

That's how you know he's in the Lebron/MJ territory of on-court performance.

[GOBB]

Oh I just realized Gobb is Embiid stan :roll:

That's just sad.

Jokic has put up historic performances week after week for 5 years now that everyone has become numb to it.

That's how you know he's in the Lebron/MJ territory of on-court performance.

You’re a bit emotional here. And I get it based on the exchanges you have had in this thread. So let’s reconnect shall we? First to say I’m an Embiid Stan is wild. It has no relevance on my reply whatsoever. I’ll coddle you a bit here. Jokic is better. Jokic if we ranked centers is higher. Jokic if we ranked them all time players is even higher. Now if we take both at their best and healthy? I feel it’s a fair matchup. And no one should be surprised IF Embiid were to get the best in said matchup assuming both guarded the other. That said Jokic has been at his best far longer than Embiid ever has nor will be. But my point in this is that is the ONLY time an embiid vs Jokic discussion would make some type of sense.

It’s sad you stooped to this level honestly. You’re usually level headed from what I’ve read from you. And not really on a fanatic crusade of a player. Maybe my sample size of posts I read from you is small. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.


Jokic has done amazing things. Never denied that. I guess repeating it helps? Being numb to it is a general observation because we live in a social media world where fans are spoiled. Where fans raise expectations of being impressed to ridiculous feats. You scored 100? Wow cool. Score 150 and I’m moved. Wilt did 100 already. Social media has fans nitpicking things with their magnifying glasses. Discrediting, diminishing in past or present eras. The lack of just appreciation things you saw in real time is lost.


My post is simple. Why is Oscar Robertson who achieved similar feats often left out of convos? This had been a thing before Jokic was drafted. Mosy likely none of us here saw him play. Nor experienced the era in which he did. Arguing/throwing out advanced metric/stats seems a bit weird for players we never actually saw.

Your opinion of your opinion. It’s not going to change. Your mind is made up on Jokic and his place. Now I am an Iverson stan so my opinion on him. His place amongst the greats. His impact. You can’t convince me otherwise. Not here to do the same for you when it comes to Jokic my guy.

[hold this L]

Wow, a Curry stan trying to slam another player's defense? You guys are retarded.
There's a monolithic difference between a center being bad defensively vs a guard, you complete and utter moron. We have seen bench player centers have either season or career highs vs Jokic. Curry has been a part of one of the best defensive teams in the league for many, many years because he's a mediocre on ball and great team defender. I understand that you have to bring up another player instead of focusing on the topic though, I'd expect nothing less than a mouth breather that thinks Jokic is a top 4 player all time.

[hold this L]

:roll:

You guys keep trying to go the conventional "resume" route of ring counting which is lame. Remember, MJ was crowned GOAT with just one ring.

This thread is not a "GOAT" conversation, which is much more than just on court impact. I am referring to on-court impact. Jokic is at least top 5 all time, I mean the guy is literally number 1 ALL TIME in a ton of advanced stats, literally ahead of MJ.

No one has lead the ENTIRE league in so many advanced stats for almost FIVE years now and not automatically been considered a top 10 player of all time. We don't need on paper resumes to determine this. The league is LUCKY the Jokic's best teammates were literally injured and unavailable in the 2021 and 2022 playoffs.
They were saying he was the goat, but it was always assumed he would do more. Absolutely nobody would consider MJ the goat today if he only once, outside of spastic player stans. It's disingenuous or delusional to believe otherwise.

- Jokic has beaten 1 50 win team his entire playoff career, legitimately one of the most pathetic stats for an ATG.
- The only year he did win, it was one of the worst historical SRS runs if not the worst in NBA history.
- When Jokic was off the court during that run, the team had a higher net rating than any of the 35 seasons that either Steph or Lebron had when they were off the court. Yes, that includes that 2017 playoff run where Warriors went 16-1 and had KD onthe team. His team was cooking that well (against garbage opponents).


Advanced stats are being broken because when they were originally made, they weren't taking account centers getting so many bonuses for the way they play now. Giannis is right there with Jokic for some of the best advance statistics ever, and nerds like you would probably put as what.. top 5? Why not right, look at his statistics.

[StrongLurk]

You’re a bit emotional here. And I get it based on the exchanges you have had in this thread. So let’s reconnect shall we? First to say I’m an Embiid Stan is wild. It has no relevance on my reply whatsoever. I’ll coddle you a bit here. Jokic is better. Jokic if we ranked centers is higher. Jokic if we ranked them all time players is even higher. Now if we take both at their best and healthy? I feel it’s a fair matchup. And no one should be surprised IF Embiid were to get the best in said matchup assuming both guarded the other. That said Jokic has been at his best far longer than Embiid ever has nor will be. But my point in this is that is the ONLY time an embiid vs Jokic discussion would make some type of sense.

It’s sad you stooped to this level honestly. You’re usually level headed from what I’ve read from you. And not really on a fanatic crusade of a player. Maybe my sample size of posts I read from you is small. Someone can correct me if I’m wrong.


Jokic has done amazing things. Never denied that. I guess repeating it helps? Being numb to it is a general observation because we live in a social media world where fans are spoiled. Where fans raise expectations of being impressed to ridiculous feats. You scored 100? Wow cool. Score 150 and I’m moved. Wilt did 100 already. Social media has fans nitpicking things with their magnifying glasses. Discrediting, diminishing in past or present eras. The lack of just appreciation things you saw in real time is lost.


My post is simple. Why is Oscar Robertson who achieved similar feats often left out of convos? This had been a thing before Jokic was drafted. Mosy likely none of us here saw him play. Nor experienced the era in which he did. Arguing/throwing out advanced metric/stats seems a bit weird for players we never actually saw.

Your opinion of your opinion. It’s not going to change. Your mind is made up on Jokic and his place. Now I am an Iverson stan so my opinion on him. His place amongst the greats. His impact. You can’t convince me otherwise. Not here to do the same for you when it comes to Jokic my guy.

I may have said this earlier in the thread, but if not, I will here. I have a very tough time ranking players who played way back in Oscar's time, or frankly any time before 1980. The game, the rules, the team building, the contracts, etc., it's just too different. Stats were barely tracked too.

I give Kareem the benefit of the doubt because he was dominate in the 80's even at old age, so clearly if he was in his prime he'd be smacking people around. MJ and Lebron need no explanation.

I'm just saying we haven't see a player dominant the NBA from a purely individual basis like Jokic has over the last 5 years since Lebron entered his prime/peak, and then again since MJ entered his peak. Like, it is what it is.

We have Jokic, a guy who is currently top 3 in the league in points, rebounds, steals, deflections, has the highest TS% out of volume scorers, and has the second best AST/TO ratio out of volume passes. He also completely passes the eye test and has ZERO skill weaknesses.

He keeps doing things that NO ONE has ever done before (including Lebron, MJ, Kareem), and we keep having a bunch of people just downplay it all. Honestly I think social media has ruined "greatness" because we've simply been exposed to it too much. If Jokic was doing this shit 15 years ago, then he'd be held in much higher regard.

The fact that people have to bring up Wilt and Oscar to make a statistical comparison actually SHOWS how insane Jokic is. He is doing this in a fully modern era.

[StrongLurk]

There's a monolithic difference between a center being bad defensively vs a guard, you complete and utter moron. We have seen bench player centers have either season or career highs vs Jokic. Curry has been a part of one of the best defensive teams in the league for many, many years because he's a mediocre on ball and great team defender. I understand that you have to bring up another player instead of focusing on the topic though, I'd expect nothing less than a mouth breather that thinks Jokic is a top 4 player all time.

Bro if Centers are so much more important than PGs when in comes to basketball, then you are crippling your own argument.

Curry's teammate help has been 5 times more than Jokic ever had buddy. Jokic already passed Curry in MVPs, 1st team all-nba selections (after this year) advanced stats, everything. Curry simply has more rings (same amount of FMVPS though) compared to Jokic because of getting lucky in the 2015 finals (Kyrie/Love injured) and then CONSTANTLY getting huge acquisitions via his Warriors management (Iggy, Bogut, KD, Wiggins, Butler).

Jokic hasn't had a SINGLE teammate even make the all star team (although Murray was clearly all-star level in 2023 players, and what do you know? Jokic won a ring).

I'm a big fan of Curry and I'm excited to see what he can do now that Butler is on the team, but you claiming Jokic isn't even top 20 all time just kills your credibility.

Also, once again, my thread isn't about who has the best "Resumes" which everyone keeps trying to pivot too. It's about IMPACT. No one has had impact stats like Jokic since Lebron and MJ.

[SouBeachTalents]

Tbf, you should've worded your thread title a lot better, it literally says Jokic is the 4th best player of all time, which a lot of people will interpret to mean all time rank, not just peak or ability.

[StrongLurk]

Tbf, you should've worded your thread title a lot better, it literally says Jokic is the 4th best player of all time, which a lot of people will interpret to mean all time rank, not just peak or ability.

BRUH, my OP is extremely short and concise. This is what I mean when I just posted that social media has ruined everything. People's attention spans and ability to have rational discussion are ****ing gone. All these people need to do is read like the 30 ****ing works I put in the OP, but apparently that's too hard.

[SouBeachTalents]

BRUH, my OP is extremely short and concise. This is what I mean when I just posted that social media has ruined everything. People's attention spans and ability to have rational discussion are ****ing gone. All these people need to do is read like the 30 ****ing works I put in the OP, but apparently that's too hard.
Or, you could just word your thread title better, avoid this confusion altogether. Look how many times you've had to correct the record because of it :lol

[hold this L]

Bro if Centers are so much more important than PGs when in comes to basketball, then you are crippling your own argument.

Curry's teammate help has been 5 times more than Jokic ever had buddy. Jokic already passed Curry in MVPs, 1st team all-nba selections (after this year) advanced stats, everything. Curry simply has more rings (same amount of FMVPS though) compared to Jokic because of getting lucky in the 2015 finals (Kyrie/Love injured) and then CONSTANTLY getting huge acquisitions via his Warriors management (Iggy, Bogut, KD, Wiggins, Butler).

Jokic hasn't had a SINGLE teammate even make the all star team (although Murray was clearly all-star level in 2023 players, and what do you know? Jokic won a ring).

I'm a big fan of Curry and I'm excited to see what he can do now that Butler is on the team, but you claiming Jokic isn't even top 20 all time just kills your credibility.

Also, once again, my thread isn't about who has the best "Resumes" which everyone keeps trying to pivot too. It's about IMPACT. No one has had impact stats like Jokic since Lebron and MJ.

You're not reading what I said. I'm talking about defense. A player being bad defensively matters more if they're a center than a guard. You can complain about help, but his issue hasn't been help, his 4th best guy can drop 30 piece from their team. Their 3rd best guy is a regular 60% TS on an annual basis. To give some reference, Klay has never gotten to 60% TS despite being one of the best shooters ever.

To be the goat, everything is accounted for but reality is you can talk about 2015 all you want, but Steph went against 4 1st all NBA players in every single round. Got help with injuries, then the opposite happened the year after. Jokic has literally went through the worst SRS playoff championship run.. ever. And you're talking about other players easy runs. :lol

I did not say he's not top 20 but barely in there. Anyone who thinks Jokic is top 10 is retarded, let alone top 5. And most advance metrics gas up centers who have a lot of assists on top of rebounds, because we generally never dealt with point centers before. Giannis by your garbage method would also be a top 5 player because hey, he's got all the metrics and 1st all NBAs to get there.

[StrongLurk]

Or, you could just word your thread title better, avoid this confusion altogether. Look how many times you've had to correct the record because of it :lol

If people can't read 30 words and only read headlines, then we are officially cooked as society. I mean, we are already cooked for sure, but damn, it's just a few words.

[StrongLurk]

Jokic is currently on pace to lead NBA centers in deflections (240) for a sixth straight season.

And Jokic uses his feet a lot. In recent years no one in the NBA has stopped the game more by kicking the ball than Jokic. Since the start of 2020, the superstar has been whistled for a whopping 127 kicked-ball violations, between his regular-season and postseason games.

I still can't believe we have so many people clinging onto the idea that Jokic is a "bad" defender. Sure, he's below average at specifically rim protection, but he's damn good at everything else because he's an extremely high BBIQ player. He is elite at steals, deflections, kick-balls, positioning, knowing the opponents offensive schemes plays (same thing Lebron get's legendary hype for).

[RRR3]

Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center. Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.

[StrongLurk]

Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center. Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.

What's up with people claiming it's not important for Curry to be good at defense? WTF are yall smoking? It's INCREDIBLY important to be able to guard the other teams ballhanders (typically other guards).

Have you ever heard of a point of attack defender? A "point-of-attack defender" in basketball is a player tasked with guarding the opposing team's primary ball-handler, focusing on staying in front of them and navigating screens to disrupt their offense.

This is INCREDIBLY important, probably the most important it's ever been in the modern NBA basketball.

[RRR3]

What's up with people claiming it's not important for Curry to be good at defense? WTF are yall smoking? It's INCREDIBLY important to be able to guard the other teams ballhanders (typically other guards).

Have you ever heard of a point of attack defender? A "point-of-attack defender" in basketball is a player tasked with guarding the opposing team's primary ball-handler, focusing on staying in front of them and navigating screens to disrupt their offense.

This is INCREDIBLY important, probably the most important it's ever been in the modern NBA basketball.
Outside of Curry, just off the top of my head the following point guards have been starters on championship teams: Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Derek Fisher (as an old man too), Tony Parker, Jamal Murray. Please tell me which of them was some notable defender :lol Matter of fact, how many great defensive starting PGs can you name from championship teams?

[StrongLurk]

Outside of Curry, just off the top of my head the following point guards have been starters on championship teams: Isiah Thomas, Magic Johnson, Derek Fisher (as an old man too), Tony Parker, Jamal Murray. Please tell me which of them was some notable defender :lol Matter of fact, how many great defensive starting PGs can you name from championship teams?

Honestly you are making the same mistake the other Curry stan did. Yall both completely ruined your own argument because you basically claimed that Centers are simply more important to have than PGs on an NBA roster.

You already said Jokic is a better defender than Curry, but he's also a better rebounder and offensive player too :lol

He's got Curry beat everywhere.

[RRR3]

Honestly you are making the same mistake the other Curry stan did. Yall both completely ruined your own argument because you basically claimed that Centers are simply more important to have than PGs on an NBA roster.

You already said Jokic is a better defender than Curry, but he's also a better rebounder and offensive player too :lol

He's got Curry beat everywhere.
Center is inherently the most impactful defensive position you idiot :hammerhead:

He is not better relative to position, not even close.


Now name the great defensive PGs on championship teams, slugger. Since it's so important :yaohappy:

[StrongLurk]

Center is inherently the most impactful defensive position you idiot :hammerhead:

He is not better relative to position, not even close.


Now name the great defensive PGs on championship teams, slugger. Since it's so important :yaohappy:

What exactly is Curry better at than Jokic when looking at the whole package. Jokic is a better defender and rebounder clearly. We can also argue he's a better offensive player too.

Jrue Holiday is a good example considering the Celtics just won last year. He also won with the Bucks in 2021.

Some other good ones are Jason Kidd, Rajon Rondo, Walt Frazier, Chauncy Billups, Maurice Cheeks, Jerry West, Isaiah Thomas.

There might others but that's a good list in my opinion.

[RRR3]

Who told you Isiah Thomas was a good defender? :lol Have you even read about him? Now try naming a team with a weak defender at center that won a ring. And no Jokic is not better than Curry at offense, no one is.

[StrongLurk]

Who told you Isiah Thomas was a good defender? :lol Have you even read about him? Now try naming a team with a weak defender at center that won a ring. And no Jokic is not better than Curry at offense, no one is.

Uhh, plenty of teams won rings with weak defensive centers. Are you serious? Plenty of teams nowadays even have power forwards actually playing the center position. Also small ball teams might have a guy like Lebron or Draymond play center. So clearly it's not a NEEDED thing to win.

Also Jokic has absolutely an argument of being better at offense than Curry. Jokic is basically Dirk/Nash combined into one entity on offense. Two of the best offensive players of all time COMBINED.

[RRR3]

Bro called Draymond a weak defender and expects me to take him seriously

[StrongLurk]

Bro called Draymond a weak defender and expects me to take him seriously

You said weak centers and I responded that plenty of teams DONT EVEN HAVE centers anymore. That's my point. Dray is clearly a great defender, but he's not even a center at all. Many teams have won without dominant defensive centers. MJ's bulls didn't have any, they had rodman and grant who were elite 4's for sure.

Oh by the way, here you go.

Jokic 2020-2025: 31.7 PER, 66.3 TS%, .302 WS/48, 13.1 BPM

MJ 88-93: 30.3 PER, 59.3 TS%, .288 WS/48, 11.2 BPM.

Jokic is outdoing PEAK MJ, who was literally the advanced stats god before Jokic came through :lol

[RRR3]

Draymond plays center a ton. Do you even watch basketball?

[StrongLurk]

Draymond plays center a ton. Do you even watch basketball?

Yeah but he's NOT an actual Center dummy. He's a forward stepping into play the 5 due to small ball.

Oh by the way, Jokic even leads the league this year in average 3-point distance at 28.7 feet :roll:

Jokic is literally the basketball SKILL GOD, he makes every shot from everywhere on the floor and makes every possible pass everywhere on the floor while also have an elite assist/turnover ratio.

He might be the most skilled player I have ever seen.

[Manny98]

LeBron, MJ & Jokic are the top 3 best

[hold this L]

Curry is quite a bit better at defense than Jokic relative to the position they play. Sure Jokic is better overall at defense, but he ****ing better be as a center. Having someone with Curry's defense isn't problematic for team building at all, someone with Jokic's defense at center IS.

Steph is flat out better than Jokic defensively, this is just wrong. The problem is that Jokic is comically lazy defensively and gives very little effort. People talk a lot of shit about Lebron taking off plays defensively, but he's 40 years old. Jokic does it on a far greater level. If Steph had this pathetic level of effort defensively, he would be one of the worst defensive guards in the league. He has try a lot to be solid to good due to physical limitations.

Tonight on several instances, Jokic is just taking plays off. But hey, he is top 3 in steals so obviously that doesn't matter right? :lol There was a play tonight where Steph got a rebound next to Jokic, then ran to the 3P line to shoot a 3, and Jokic just flat didn't bother going after him. He just stood near the rim and two other guys ran towards Steph to try to defend the 3. Legitimately pathetic defending.

[StrongLurk]

Steph is flat out better than Jokic defensively, this is just wrong. The problem is that Jokic is comically lazy defensively and gives very little effort. People talk a lot of shit about Lebron taking off plays defensively, but he's 40 years old. Jokic does it on a far greater level. If Steph had this pathetic level of effort defensively, he would be one of the worst defensive guards in the league. He has try a lot to be solid to good due to physical limitations.

Tonight on several instances, Jokic is just taking plays off. But hey, he is top 3 in steals so obviously that doesn't matter right? :lol There was a play tonight where Steph got a rebound next to Jokic, then ran to the 3P line to shoot a 3, and Jokic just flat didn't bother going after him. He just stood near the rim and two other guys ran towards Steph to try to defend the 3. Legitimately pathetic defending.

Jokic isn't lazy on defense, that's ridiculous. He leads the league in deflections for 6 years in a row now (for centers), leads the league by far in kick balls, always good with steals, and has a really high BBIQ. He easily calls out and stops other offensive plays just through communication alone.

[StrongLurk]

LeBron, MJ & Jokic are the top 3 best

Manny my guy :rockon:

[tpols]

Jokic and Curry are like mirrors of themselves from opposite ends of the positional line up spectrum.

Both offensive dynamos, Yolk more consistent, Chef more explosive, both above average defense impact despite an incorrect stigma that exists.

Both top 10 GOATs at the end of their careers. Guys like Magic and Bird are kind of slipping a little because you can't cry defense there when we pull the playoff numbers.

[StrongLurk]

Steve Kerr just said Jokic is the best center he's ever seen.

[ShawkFactory]

I don’t know about 4th best player or all time. That’s obviously very subjective and often times nostalgia based. And we of course can never know what Jokic and Wilt would look like playing in the same league.

BUT…I got to thinking and he’s been pretty unanimously the best player in the world for about 3 years now. Rings can be luck based at times but looking through the lists of top guys…very few people have had a 3 year (and who knows when this even ends) run like that as a completely accepted BITW. You can’t count the amount of times that’s happened on two hands. Closer to 5 than 10 honestly.

[StrongLurk]

I don’t know about 4th best player or all time. That’s obviously very subjective and often times nostalgia based. And we of course can never know what Jokic and Wilt would look like playing in the same league.

BUT…I got to thinking and he’s been pretty unanimously the best player in the world for about 3 years now. Rings can be luck based at times but looking through the lists of top guys…very few people have had a 3 year (and who knows when this even ends) run like that as a completely accepted BITW. You can’t count the amount of times that’s happened on two hands. Closer to 5 than 10 honestly.

Exactly, everyone is denying it and trying to pivot to "bUt RiNgZ". It's pathetic.

[Micku]

Exactly, everyone is denying it and trying to pivot to "bUt RiNgZ". It's pathetic.

I get the rings argument depending on your criteria.

But when it comes to just basketball and how good you are? Jokic is up there for me. Best offensive player that I seen when it comes to impact.

[hold this L]

Jokic isn't lazy on defense, that's ridiculous. He leads the league in deflections for 6 years in a row now (for centers), leads the league by far in kick balls, always good with steals, and has a really high BBIQ. He easily calls out and stops other offensive plays just through communication alone.
Noone is doubting his BBIQ, he is one of top 5 in BBIQ in NBA history. He has a ton of games where he eases on plays.

[StrongLurk]

Noone is doubting his BBIQ, he is one of top 5 in BBIQ in NBA history. He has a ton of games where he eases on plays.

I'm not going to argue too much about this, because no player is perfect.

[hold this L]

I'm not going to argue too much about this, because no player is perfect.

There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.

[RRR3]

There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.
Elite defender according to OP :yaohappy:

[StrongLurk]

There's a difference between asking for perfection.. and this.
https://x.com/_JasonLT/status/1909288743976251616

A whole section off one game only. 1-2 few are minor, but there's some legitimately pathetic defending happening here. You want to add the level of hype that comes with that level of player, and it will also come with scrutiny.

I'm fine with scrunity. Jokic is an average defender when all things are considered (at least in the last 3-4 years, he as definitely bad his first couple of years in the NBA).

An average defender PLUS all the stuff he does on offense/rebounding makes him a GOAT. Jokic is the best scorer/rebounder/passer of all time in my opinion, even over Lebron. Lebron's advantage is on the defensive side plus GOAT longevity.

[RRR3]

Considering what 40 year old LeBron is doing to the league I think if he was in his 20s rn people would laugh at the idea of Jokic being compared to him. But we’ve established OP is the buzzfeed of ish already.

[ImKobe]

https://youtu.be/Q5roqoxL2qw

defensive genius :oldlol: more like the Luka Doncic of Centers :confusedshrug: