The rise in international comp is offset by cratering of American development

[3ba11]

.
Top American MVP candidates in 1990:

Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Larry Bird
Clyde Drexler
Isiah Thomas


Top American MVP candidates in 2024:

Tatum
Brunson
Ant
Ja


Ric Bucher made this fantastic point while systematically destroying every pro-Lebron talking point vs Acho here:
'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaxBmav4F9g

[Duffy Pratt]

.
Top American MVP candidates in 1990:

Magic Johnson
Charles Barkley
Michael Jordan
Karl Malone
Patrick Ewing
David Robinson
Hakeem Olajuwon
Larry Bird
Clyde Drexler
Isiah Thomas


Top American MVP candidates in 2024:

Tatum
Brunson
Ant
Ja


Ric Bucher made this fantastic point while systematically destroying every pro-Lebron talking point vs Acho here:
'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaxBmav4F9g

Hakeem? Nigeria

Ewing? Born and raised (through elementary school) in Jamaica.

[sdot_thadon]

It's almost as if we can't recognize the international boom in popularity the 90s often is credited with, is also the same reason we have great international players today. The world wasn't watching the NBA in 1990 like it would after the olympics.

[ShawkFactory]

We got Cooper Flagg coming. Aka a worse version of Dalton Knecht

[FKAri]

You left out AD. How can a LeBron hater forget about AD? lmao.

Also, 1990 was a special year. A generation of great players happened to be in their prime at around the same time. An aberration more than anything else. It's like that 09-11 span where Kobe, KD, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Dwight, Amare, Duncan, KG, CP, DWill etc were all in or near their primes.

Maybe we're in a lull of American talent right now and it could pick back up in a year or 2 depending on how a bunch of guys develop. Maybe the talent's fine, it's just being drowned out by even better international stars. Or maybe you're right and it's a trend. I do think AAU has made things worse but not to the extant you claim.

[3ba11]

Also, 1990 was a special year.





You think I cherry-picked the year?

It's such a low bar in recent years that I could pick any year from after 2011 and destroy the Tatum/Ant/Ja peak of American players that we're in... Duncan was 5th for MVP in 1998, so that year has Shaq, Duncan, Robinson, MJ, Malone, Hill, Payton, Penny.. Only Tatum vs Hill/Payton/Penny is a conversation.

So once again, we see that today's era is worse, due to vastly inferior American players, and a simpleton "downhill" skillset (not 5-man basketball) that today's spaced-out, hands-off beginner format produces.

[Axe]

1-9

[3ba11]

1-9


Lebron couldn't make the playoffs out West until AD arrived, and then he lost 3 straight without AD to lose a 2-1 lead in the 2021 1st Round.

He also couldn't make the playoffs in the East until he received a player that was better than 1990 Pippen o both sides of the ball (2005 Hughes), plus the East all-star center.

[SouBeachTalents]

Duncan was a rookie, Robinson was coming off an injury and no longer at peak form, and Penny missed over 60 games. You look at some of the guys who were making All-NBA in that timeframe; Glen Rice, Rod Strickland, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Juwan Howard, you could legitimately argue none of those guys would've been All-NBA last year.

Jokic/Giannis/Luka/SGA all in their prime is clearly better than 35 year old Jordan/34 year old Malone/Shaq/rookie Duncan. Where they happened to be born is like Jordan without Pippen, irrelevant

[3ba11]

Duncan was a rookie, Robinson was coming off an injury and no longer at peak form, and Penny missed over 60 games. You look at some of the guys who were making All-NBA in that timeframe; Glen Rice, Rod Strickland, Vin Baker, Anthony Mason, Juwan Howard, you could legitimately argue none of those guys would've been All-NBA last year.

Jokic/Giannis/Luka/SGA all in their prime is clearly better than 35 year old Jordan/34 year old Malone/Shaq/rookie Duncan. Where they happened to be born is like Jordan without Pippen, irrelevant


It's clear that American basketball has cratered because there are no obvious all-timers like Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Hill and MJ all playing at the same time in the 90's - today's game counters with Ja, Ant and Tatum... lol... Desmond Bane is probably a top 10 American player.. lol

And I was just looking at the top 15 for MVP voting for 1998 vs 2024... Duncan was 5th for MVP in 1998 and everyone knew that he was already an all-time great... I added Penny at the end but regardless, American basketball players were FAR better from 1980-2010 compared to thereafter.. There are no all-timers among current American ballplayers, aside from fossil guys that are done already.

[SouBeachTalents]

It's clear that American basketball has cratered because there are no obvious all-timers like Hakeem, Shaq, Robinson, Barkley, Malone, Drexler, Hill and MJ all playing at the same time in the 90's - today's game counters with Ja, Ant and Tatum... lol... Desmond Bane is probably a top 10 American player.. lol

And I was just looking at the top 15 for MVP voting for 1998 vs 2024... Duncan was 5th for MVP in 1998 and everyone knew that he was already an all-time great... I added Penny at the end but regardless, American basketball players were FAR better from 1980-2010 compared to thereafter.
Whether they're American or not is literally irrelevant. A lot of the top MLB players are Dominican or Japanese, NHL is Canadian, tennis has been European players for 2 decades now. Where you happen to be born has no bearing on how good you are as a player. Jordan could've been born in North Korea he'd still be the 2nd GOAT to LeBron, it wouldn't change his all-time standing.

[3ba11]

Whether they're American or not is literally irrelevant. A lot of the top MLB players are Dominican or Japanese, NHL is Canadian, tennis has been European players for 2 decades now. Where you happen to be born has no bearing on how good you are as a player. Jordan could've been born in North Korea he'd still be the 2nd GOAT to LeBron, it wouldn't change his all-time standing.


The point is that the whole "basketball is international" argument means nothing when American basketball has cratered to offset it.

Jokic, SGA, Luka, Giannis = Magic, Bird, MJ, Robinson, Malone, Barkley

[Phoenix]

You left out AD. How can a LeBron hater forget about AD? lmao.

Also, 1990 was a special year. A generation of great players happened to be in their prime at around the same time. An aberration more than anything else. It's like that 09-11 span where Kobe, KD, LeBron, Wade, Melo, Dwight, Amare, Duncan, KG, CP, DWill etc were all in or near their primes.

Maybe we're in a lull of American talent right now and it could pick back up in a year or 2 depending on how a bunch of guys develop. Maybe the talent's fine, it's just being drowned out by even better international stars. Or maybe you're right and it's a trend. I do think AAU has made things worse but not to the extant you claim.

I would go back about 5-6 years for a better example of this. Kobe, Duncan and KG were all late prime( the latter two especially) in that period you mention. 2003 though? First team All-NBA was Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Kobe, Tmac. 2nd team Wallace, Webber, Dirk, Kidd, Iverson. Every single name there in or near their apex.

[Axe]

:blah
Did you know that pau gasol should have been the finals mvp in 2010? Oh and he's an import too.